Does anything actually connect modern Israel and the year 1948?

[Boojatta]

Isn't it possible that there is no connection?

I'm not suggesting that Israel doesn't exist now. I'm suggesting that it might have been founded earlier. For example, is it possible that there was a secret provision in the Treaty of Versailles that was implemented before 1948? Alternatively, is it possible that modern Israel was established before the Treaty of Versailles?

[LARED]

1. The idea of a Jewish homeland was "out there" prior to 1948

which is not surprising.

So what?

[Boojatta]

2. My question is whether the government of modern Israel existed

before 1948.

Also, the discovery of previously secret provisions in the Treaty of Versailles would be a big deal to many historians.

[LARED]

3. Read this and tell me what you think

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1922mandate.html

[Darwins Doberman]

4. Maybe there was a declaration...

Made in Britain... by a Lord... stating the goal of re-establishing the state of Israel in British Palestine...

damn it, this all sounds so familiar...

I dunno, maybe this

[Boojatta]

5. I'm not talking about utterance, before 1948, of a goal.

I'm talking about modern Israel having an actual government before 1948.

[William Seger]

6. Do you mean, like...

... in another dimension or alternate universe? What would this "actual government" have actually governed before 1948?

[leftofthedial]

7. sorta. in 1948 Israel deserved all sorts of sympathy because fascists had persecuted and killed Jews

Now, Palestinians deserve all sorts of sympathy because Israeli fascists persecute and kill Palestinians.

So there is a kind of connection.

[Boojatta]

8. Do Palestinians deserve sympathy starting precisely in the year 2008 and no earlier?

I ask because you attempted to set up a parallel specifically between 1948 and "Now." The year right now happens to be 2008.

[leftofthedial]

9. of course not

[Boojatta]

11. Do any Palestinians have a right to return to Kuwait?

Alternatively, does the territory of Kuwait lack holiness and therefore permit the government of Kuwait to deport Palestinians en masse with no questions asked?

[leftofthedial]

12. all the indigenous people of that region have the right to sort out their own

political destinies free of Euro-American imposition of borders, coups, military backing and other meddling.

[Boojatta]

13. Did all the people in Europe from 1933 to 1945 have the right to sort out...

their own political destinies free of any alliances or military backing or other "meddling" by the USA?

[leftofthedial]

14. the right? yes.

your questions are vague.

[LARED]

19. Perhaps we took different history classes, but

if memory serves me well the Europeans were more than welcoming when the USA "meddled" with the occupation and pending occupation by the German of most of Europe.

[Boojatta]

20. By "Europeans", did you mean...

"European allies of the US and some neutral Europeans"?

[LARED]

21. No I meant those European countries

that were occupied by the Germans or were in danger of being occupied.

Lets make this simple. You have some agenda or issue that you seem reluctant to say out loud. Just say it. You'll feel better.

[Darwins Doberman]

10. there is absolutely no equivalence between Palestine and the Holocaust

to draw any is to minimize the horrors of what was perpetrated by the Nazis, and is simply repuslive.

I'd have more sympathy for the Palestinians if their groups weren't called things like Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, or they didn't look up to blood cults like Hamas for leadership. These groups aren't exactly progressive liberal movements in favor of things like women's rights, religious pluralism, you know, stuff I would hope you support.

[leftofthedial]

15. there is no quantitative comparison--and I did not make one.

there is, however, an undeniable qualitative similarity.

[Darwins Doberman]

17. oh?

When Israel sets up death and concentration camps for all non-Jewish Arabs to live in regardless of the level of society in which they live, then there's a qualitative comparison. When their goal becomes the extinction of the Arab race from the planet, then there's a qualitative comparison between Israel's actions and the actions undertaken by crumbs like Adolf Eichmann.

Good job, you qualitatively minimized the Holocaust, Pat Buchanan and Jean Marie Le-Pen would be proud.

[leftofthedial]

18. congratulations! heckuva job, DD!

you managed to simultaneously mischaracterize what I said

AND

to trivialize the denial of civil liberties based on ethnicity and national origin, the confiscation and destruction of private property, the confiscation of lands, forced detainment on the basis of ethnic origin, torture, economic exploitation of ethnic sub-class, murder of innocent men, women and children, crimes against humanity, pervasive use of military and national security assets to oppress an ethnic "minority," fascist marriage of the military, the government and corporations and the use of military force to intimidate and control other countries.

Good job! Heinrich Himmler, Joseph Goebbels and Joe Lieberman would be proud!

[Lithos]

16. There were government like agencies

Some of which were competing, but there was nothing which was a sole representative of the political governance which became Israel.

If you are talking about the people having a national identity, then you are talking more about subjective pieces than anything you can put factual claims against.

This is almost like asking the question, when was the American West settled or when was there a US government? A lot depends on your heuristics.

L-

[sofa king]

22. Sure, that's why people who hate them call them "Zionists."

Theodore Herzl is considered the official founder of the Zionist movement, publishing a pamphlet on the subject in 1897. However, Jewish migration back to the Middle East was steady for hundreds of years before that, notably including the expulsion of Jews from Spain in 1492.

However, prior to 1947, the Zionists were about as politically important as the libertarians out there who are planning to take over one of our fifty states by encouraging all libertarians to move there.

In 1949, Israel was admitted to the United Nations, effectively solidifying the country's sovereignty.