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As federal agency declares 'new phenomenon' downed WTC 7, activists cry foul

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Phred42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 09:00 AM
Original message
As federal agency declares 'new phenomenon' downed WTC 7, activists cry foul

:rofl:
Someone must have pulled a groin mussel on this stretch
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As federal agency declares 'new phenomenon' downed WTC 7, activists cry foul

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/BREAKING_NIST_%3CI%3Efinally%3CI%3E_poses_theory_on_0821.html

According to a federal agency report released Thursday, a "new phenomenon" known as thermal expansion was directly responsible for the mysterious collapse of World Trade Center 7 on Sept. 11, 2001.

This study, posed by the National Institute of Standards and Technology -- a federal scientific agency which promotes technical industrial standards -- marks the first 'official' government theory on the collapse.

The building's demise occurred some seven hours after the twin towers collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001, and has been the source of numerous conspiracy theories key to the "9/11 Truth" movement, most of which argue that the symmetrical, seven-second collapse was brought about by a controlled demolition.

Dr. Shyam Sunder, director of Institute's building and fire research laboratory, oversaw the government's three-year research efforts. The report aims to disprove the controlled demolition argument.

However, Richard Gage, founder of Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth and a member of the American Institute of Architects, doesn't believe a word of the theory.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
1. Does the "raw" in rawstory.com stand for
Edited on Fri Aug-22-08 09:27 AM by LARED
raw, as in unrefined, incomplete, or is it a new euphemism for spreading misinformation and BS?
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I think it is that second one n/t
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. OMFG. Was their a contest for dumbass statments per article or something?
We should make this a poll to select your favorite retarded statement from that article.

Thermal expansion is apparently a new phenomenon and the NIST report aims to disprove CD. Who knew?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. It's pretty stupid to claim that...
thermal expansion is a new or invented phenomenon.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Indeed.
To quote Sunder from the press conference:

Anyone who has run a tight jar lid under hot water to help loosen the top knows that metal expands when it gets hot.


Here's Sunder's statement about "new phenomenon":

Our study has identified thermal expansion as a new phenomenon that can cause the collapse of a structure. For the first time we have shown that fire can induce a progressive collapse.


As you can see, the RawStory article ripped that statement out of context.
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whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. They have "shown", but not proved shit
Anything can be "shown". A cartoon can be "shown". Why did this "new phenomenon" happen to reveal itself for the 1st and only time on 911? One of three amazing 1sts... This is bull, NIST is corrupt, truth will out. Someday.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. This really threatens you.
Edited on Fri Aug-22-08 04:37 PM by boloboffin
Perhaps you could sit down with someone you trust and explore the reasons why.

The "new phenomenon" is only new in the context - things that can destroy a building, things against which codes are developed and buildings are designed against. Thermal expansion is as old as the universe.
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whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yes, old as the universe... Yet it took 'til 09-11-01 to destroy a skyscraper
Things just went miraculously "right" that day. Trifecta!

P.S. before you suggest I seek help, you should ask yourself how a healthy person can justify the obsession you have with this forum. I'm just sayin...
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. My obsession with this forum?
Um, haven't you seen the recent figures posted here? I'm like number 3 with 32 posts a week.

Perhaps you could discuss this need to project obsession onto me with your trusted person as well.
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whatchamacallit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Oh I'm sorry you're just number *3*
My bad, sorry for projecting.:rofl:
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eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. NIST's argument about thermite is pretty weak.
At least the one in the Q&A below is. They don't actually rule out thermite or thermate as a contributing cause; they only go so far as to say it is unlikely. And that conclusion is predicated on their assumption that it is unlikely that 100 lbs. of thermite could have been carried into the building. This entire line of reasoning collapses if one can believe that it is in fact possible that 100 lbs. of thermite could have been carried into the building. I, for one, find it entirely possible that 100 lbs. of thermite could be carried in. In fact, it seems a ludicrous assertion, to me, to say that it would be difficult or unlikely to carry 100 lbs. in.

I will grant, in advance, that their argument is pretty sloppily constructed and could probably be improved if challenged. For example, they only mention in passing the problem of keeping the thermite in contact with the vertical surface of the column, which I believe to be a more plausible difficulty than carrying 100 lbs. in would be. But as it stands in their Q&A document, without any such improvement, it is not much of a basis for a conclusion that thermite was not used to weaken the column that failed and initiated the collapse (according to them). In fact, I would say that they leave the distinct possibility that that column was weakened with thermite and essentially just do a lot of hand waving to distract from that possibility.

Maybe they do a better job on this thermite question somewhere else? If so, please let me know. If not, then it is curious that they relegated their refutation of probably the most commonly proffered alternative theory to a companion document Q&A and didn't deal with it in the main paper. I did a search in both Volume 1: Chapters 1 through 8 and Volume 2: Chapters 9 through 14 and Appendixes A through E for both "thermite" and "thermate" and got no matches. I did get matches for "RDX", which is the strawman they preferred over thermite because it was easier to refute. If the thermite argument is only addressed in this skimpy Q&A does that mean that the full panel of engineers and scientists had no chance to vet it and have not signed off on it?

Is it possible that thermite or thermate contributed to the collapse of WTC 7?
NIST has looked at the application and use of thermite and has determined that its use to sever columns in WTC 7 on 9/11/01 was unlikely.

Thermite is a combination of aluminum powder and a metal oxide that releases a tremendous amount of heat when ignited. It is typically used to weld railroad rails together by melting a small quantity of steel and pouring the melted steel into a form between the two rails.

To apply thermite to a large steel column, approximately 0.13 lb of thermite would be needed to heat and melt each pound of steel. For a steel column that weighs approximately 1,000 lbs. per foot, at least 100 lbs. of thermite would need to be placed around the column, ignited, and remain in contact with the vertical steel surface as the thermite reaction took place. This is for one column … presumably, more than one column would have been prepared with thermite, if this approach were to be used.

It is unlikely that 100 lbs. of thermite, or more, could have been carried into WTC 7 and placed around columns without being detected, either prior to Sept. 11 or during that day.

Given the fires that were observed that day, and the demonstrated structural response to the fires, NIST does not believe that thermite was used to fail any columns in WTC 7.

Analysis of the WTC steel for the elements in thermite/thermate would not necessarily have been conclusive. The metal compounds also would have been present in the construction materials making up the WTC buildings, and sulfur is present in the gypsum wallboard used for interior partitions.

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_qa_082108.html
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Read it again....
especially the part that says it would take 100 pounds of thermite per column.

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