Hello dungeon folks I have a question

[marlakay]

My step daughter visiting us from college brought dvd for us to watch the other night. Zeitgeist.

About 9-11, anti religion and anti american money stuff.

by the end they have you scared to death.

What is up with it? Is it the truth or out there??

Thanks. I welcome any info.

[SDuderstadt]

1. It's bullshit

Especially the section about 9/11.

[JackRiddler]

2. Please watch this video instead...

"9/11: Press for Truth"

A factually grounded introduction to 9/11 skepticism and the 9/11 cover-up from the perspective of the widows who fought for (and won) the 9/11 Commission in the first place, and who have since rejected its findings as a cover-up.

It has a sequel and there are other good videos and web sites, but please start there. You could also follow the links in my sig line. ;)

"Zeitgeist" uses the strongest-sounding but factually weakest (or plain wrong) evidence for doubting the official story of 9/11, like the "living hijackers" bullshit. I fast-forwarded at some point because I was too disgusted with yet another amateur flop on the scholarship front. Like "Loose Change" and "9/11 Mysteries," it does a disservice to 9/11 truth, but people like it because it's got a clear, easy narrative.

"Zeitgeist" presents a fatally simple view of the financial system.

The part about Jesus being a rehash of myths that were already thousands of years old is also sloppy at points but basically self-evident. I wish it had just gone on from there to dismantle the other monotheistic religions as well.

Still, the far better film making the exact same points as Zeitgeist is "The God Who Wasn't There."

Check out the trailer here:

http://www.thegodmovie.com/

[marlakay]

3. thanks for the info

I thought it was a bit over the top and didn't prove its point in many places. All I do know is that what they say happened didn't but I doubt the truth will ever come out.

I will check out the link.

[Bassman66]

4. The part about Jesus is there for the same

reason as no planes as far as I can see. To upset as many people as possible and be divisive.

It's a mess to be honest and quite dishonest in parts, the litany of similarities between people like Buddha, Jesus and Horus is just a joke. It's based on the conjecture of self taught 18th century "egyptologists", is presented as fact but is no such thing.

It's a very bad 9/11 video.

"Press for Truth" is the best out there. It highlights the real issues that we are constantly being distracted from.

[JackRiddler]

5. Maybe you have a point.

"Press for Truth" is the best out there. It highlights the real issues that we are constantly being distracted from.

Hear, hear, and welcome again Bassman66.

---

Now organized religion is a plague, far as I'm concerned, and what I meant was after the Jesus part (whatever its weaknesses) "Zeitgeist" should have stuck with religion and ignored 9/11. One movie at a time, please.

You may have a point about it having a disinformation function. Very bizarre combination of subjects for one film. Certainly the last thing a case for 9/11 skepticism needs is to start out with completely unrelated material that gets a large swath of religious people angry. Why this movie was so popular and a premium offer on Pacifica fundraisers, I couldn't say.

[marlakay]

6. Sigh....I guess a part of me wants the "good guys"

in white hats to win...ride up and prove what Bush and all of them did, send them all to a real dungeon forever and ever...

I know I can dream...

[jberryhill]

7. My darkest suspicion

...that I toy with from time to time is that the "dark powerful forces who control everything" stuff is designed, if not consciously but with the practical effect of, making you believe you are powerless.

In that sense, there is nonsense lore that fills the opiate role of religion in precisely the way that religion does. You take bright people who are politically interested, and convince them that they can't change anything. It's practical apathy for the non-apathetic.

Is it any great shock that there are similar concepts in any number of religions? No. As a product of human psychology, you'd pretty much expect human religious to share any number of common features. It's because we are human.

So... yeah, we're all screwed by powerful elites. Don't bother with what's going on in your local school board, your county council zoning process, your local solid waste authority, your state legislature, your civic association, your town council, various regulatory agencies of interest to you... none of that stuff really "matters". The whole political process is just a game that's designed to keep you from realizing the truth, so don't participate in it in any meaningful way. That's the message I get from this general class of stuff.

[JackRiddler]

8. Interesting thoughts...

You say:

...that I toy with from time to time is that the "dark powerful forces who control everything" stuff is designed, if not consciously but with the practical effect of, making you believe you are powerless.

This tends to what people call "conspiracy theory." And I'm sure there's something to it. Of course there are powers-that-be that would like to create the impression of omnipotence. Infinite Justice, Shock and Awe, Above All - what are these saying?!

It's so important to make distinctions. "Dark powerful forces who control everything" is a ridiculous cliche, given the million unpredictable factors in human history, including those of the natural world intruding on our sandcastles of politics. Also, the "dark powerful forces" are often simply those who are on top of a system that has its own logic regardless of what they desire. I think that's obviously the case with the dark powerful systemic beast known as capitalism.

Hidden structures of power, however - that's old hat. Why can't you admit there's such a thing as deep politics (real policy beneath the nominal policy or ideology) and parapolitics (policies crafted in private, by corporations, contractor-government "complexes" and para-governmental bodies and networks)? These have an impact! The more room you give to secret structures, the more you allow them to develop independently under cover of "national security," for that matter the more you deny their existence contrary to the evidence... the less democracy you have, the more they can get out of control.

They are never all-powerful and never control totally - for example, even if 9/11 is a false-flag attack it is hardly an indicator of power; it is a form of alternate class war and cause for foreign wars by those who aren't powerful enough to implement their program without resorting to devious means.

Don't bother with what's going on in your local school board, your county council zoning process, your local solid waste authority, your state legislature, your civic association, your town council, various regulatory agencies of interest to you... none of that stuff really "matters".

See, now what's funny is, a great many of the people I know who you might sneer at as conspiracy theorists are precisely those whom I know to be most active in such local bodies as well, and who do not at all conform with this caricature you are presenting of them. On the contrary, people who buy uncritically into two-party politics tend to vote once and then forget about it, while (many) people who view the system as rigged are active wherever they can be.

So maybe you need less simple ideas of these things.

[jberryhill]

9. Well, I'll tell you....

...my impression was probably formed by years of seeing the same three guys at the Larouche literature table every year when I went to get the tag on my car renewed, and realizing after about four years - that's all they do, and they aren't there just for the day I show up.

[JackRiddler]

10. What do they have to do with anything?

I mean, really. Do I gather my impressions of Democrats from a claque of DLCers?

If you deal with me and my posts, rather than try to associate me pointlessly with others (Larouchies, really!), we'll probably be fine.

And do you have any thoughts on the post I made, or more associative irrelevancies?

[Norrin Radd]

11. 9/11: Press for Truth

and "Iraq for Sale" (another worthwhile doc to see).

[JackRiddler]

12. Hmm... thanks to all this talk of Jesus the Google ad is now displaying a banner for

"The God Movie"