Post your Barbara Olson comments here: Part 2

[DulceDecorum]

This thread is continued from the one below which became sidetracked and too long to comfortably accomodate the dail-up crowd.

Post your Barbara Olson comments here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=1305&mesg_id=1305

[DulceDecorum]

1. Global Hawk

Unmanned aerial vehicles or UAV's have been around for decades.
http://publicbroadcasting.net/kpbs/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=535159

In 2001, there were already enough machines aloft—mostly military UAVs passing through controlled airspace on their way to Bosnia or Kosovo—to cause concern among European air-traffic controllers.
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/aviation/article/0,12543,452052,00.html

Pre-programmed mission: Global Hawks carry out pre-programmed missions and are monitored by pilots from the ground via a satellite link. The plane was the first pilotless aircraft to cross the Pacific Ocean, a 22-hour mission involving just two “clicks” of a mouse from the ground operator.
<snip>
Northrop Grumman is hoping to get similar grants for its armed version of the Global Hawk. But such military grants are just the thin end of the wedge for Dunham: “MY CONCERN IS THAT COMMERICIAL AIRLINES ARE INTERESTED IN APPLICATIONS LIKE THIS TOO.”
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994080

“The pilot keys a microphone, which is relayed to the Global Hawk by satellite links,” Heironimus said. “The computer systems on the Global Hawk relay that voice signal to air traffic controllers on the ground or in another aircraft. YOU WOULDN'T EVEN KNOW IT WAS UNMANNED.” The same thing happens in reverse with air traffic controllers’ voice commands, he said.
http://www.gcn.com/vol1_no1/homeland-security/23269-1.html

In the US, PRIVATE CONTRACTORS maintain the B2 stealth bomber and F-117 stealth fighter and ACTUALLY OPERATE SOME OF THE NEWEST WEAPONS SYSTEMS, such as the Global Hawk and Predator unmanned drones used in Afghanistan and Iraq.
http://www.corpwatch.org/news/PND.jsp?articleid=8088

The first production Global Hawk is the eighth air vehicle built. Northrop Grumman produced the first seven under the advanced concept technology demonstration phase of the program.
http://www.af.mil/stories/story.asp?storyID=123005397

[Bolo Boffin]

2. Got any proof the four airplanes were rigged up for Global Hawk?

No?

Do over.

[RC]

3. Got any proof they weren't?

No?

Want to try again?

[Bolo Boffin]

4. Got any concept of burden of proof?

They who make the assertation, pony up the proof.

You got proof of the four planes being rigged for Global Hawk? No? Shaddup.

[DulceDecorum]

7. Bolo, where is the mush?

5,000 lbs of mush.
Where is it?

You state, bluntly and often, that 189 people perished in the Pentagon.
The ones in the plane were smushed.
But there is NO mush.
Where is the mush?


You just said:
They who make the assertation, pony up the proof.

"Got any concept of burden of proof?"
I am talking to you, Boloboffin.
Where is the mush?

:shrug:

[Bolo Boffin]

11. Directions to your mush, ghoul

The remains of the passengers (what could be recovered of them) were identified and returned to their families, who buried them. Kindly pick up the phone and ask each family directions to the local plot.

[DulceDecorum]

46. Oh my goodness!

;(
You called me a ghoul.
;(
Next you will be telling me to get stuffed.
;(
Perhaps it is time you read the rules.
;(
Pardon me, folks. I am having a Kleenex moment.
;(

[demodewd]

9. To quote boloboffin

...from the Flight 11 thread...."The hijackers, I believe, used a GPS unit to program a precise location (the face of the North Tower) into the autopilot. They then programmed an exact altitude (calculated before the flight for accuracy) and let the autopilot fly the plane into the WTC." Well....got any proof that the "hijackers" used a GPS unit to program a precise location??? NO. Do over or "Shaddup". :puke:

[Abe Linkman]

10. Will you accept links to news articles which claim GPS purchases?

Prediction: In addition to some denigrating remarks, expect nothing, or little more than links to newspaper articles quoting people who claim that some people (maybe even with Arabic names) purchased GPS equipment sometime before 9/11. And, don't spoil the fun by claiming that intellgence agencies routinely plant articles in the media. Besides, you can't prove those alleged purchases weren't made by terra-minded bad people who hate us for our freedoms...and therefore decided to kill themselves, using GPS equipment to guide them to Glory (and 72 virgins).

[Bolo Boffin]

15. It's a hell of a lot more plausible...

...than all this Northwoods/Global Hawk rigamorole.

And as Abe so kindly points out - there's evidence of the hijackers buying GPS units in the days before the attacks. It's a simple solution to the problem of how they did such precision flying at such a high rate of speed. And why would they buy it if they didn't use it?

Got anything, anything at all that Global Hawk technology was a special modification of the four planes? ANYTHING?

No?

Hmmm.

[demodewd]

16. Speaking of plausability

...what are the odds that Mr ATTA, the ultra publicized LEADER of the terrorists and all the other non entities would opt for the first floor of the West Wing as their target for the Pentagon? The Wing with the least number of probable victims. The Wing with the best protection against fire. Why the minimization of victims and property when that apparently wasn't the case at the WTC? And your GPS evidence...where is this reported? It could easily be planted disinfo...Why would any main stream corporate owned publication speculate on alternatives away from the Al Qaeda terrorist scenario? You're still dealing with probabilities of the terrorists being able to subdue the people on the planes with "boxcutters",and also contending with both the pilot and co-pilot.There are a LOT of uncontrolled variables there! This scenario is not very tidy...would it be the one your LIHOP co-conspirators would opt for....good question..huh? Isn't it quite improbable that all three of the alleged phone narratives referring to the implements wielded by the hijackers named them as "boxcutters"? Where's the footage of any of the hijackers in the lobbies prior to boarding? Oh...we see ATTA, I repeat AHHHTAAAA,obtaining a ticket in Portland. Well that must prove it...therefore all the other hijackers and Aaaaaahhhhhta surely bought their tickets at Boston,Newark and DC.

[Bolo Boffin]

17. The odds were 1 in 5

That is to say, the aircraft descended in a spiral around the Pentagon until it was low enough to crash into it, and then did so. There was no "choosing" of which side to strike, by Atta or by Hanjour. The side that was there when the plane was low enough to crash was the one "chosen". So all of your objections based on the intention of minimizing damage are moot.

You want the GPS stories? Go Google them, or search back through the old archive, dewd. I've posted them before.

To subdue the passengers and cockpit, all they needed was a plan. There's evidence that some of the cockpits had already allowed access to one of the hijackers, possibly as student "observers". The others could have acted in concert, grabbing a hostage or two, killing one immediately, and ordering all in the plane to move to the back with bomb threats. People tend to follow orders when there's arterial spray in the air.

If the hijackers had boxcutters, I don't see anything improbable about all three phone conversations referring to the implements calling them boxcutters. They had boxcutters, people reported it. It's not improbable at all.

As for video footage of hijackers in the airport lobbies, what makes you so sure it doesn't exist somewhere? Perhaps only Atta's video was released. In Zacarias Moussaoui's indictment, the government lists the bulk of evidence they have concerning the hijackers' movements in the months and weeks before the 9/11 attacks. In fact, I believe the GPS purchases are a part of that record, and I've got that link handy.

http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/moussaouiindictment.htm

Pretty close to the top begins the listing of Overt Acts. This means the DOJ has the evidence necessary to prove these statements. Read over the list. This is the kind of evidence you need to prove anything like Eastman's plane theory or the controlled explosive theory. Mere probability is NOT good enough - you need the paperwork left behind by overt acts.

Final Preparations for the Coordinated Air Attack

     76. On or about August 22, 2001, Fayez Ahmed (#175) used his VISA card in Florida to obtain approximately $4,900 cash, which had been deposited into his Standard Chartered Bank account in UAE the day before.

     77. On or about August 22, 2001, in Miami, Florida, Ziad Jarrah (#93) purchased an antenna for a Global Positioning System ("GPS"), other GPS related equipment, and schematics for 757 cockpit instrument diagrams. (GPS allows an individual to navigate to a position using coordinates pre-programmed into the GPS unit.)

     78. On or about August 25, 2001, Khalid al-Midhar and Majed Moqed purchased with cash tickets for American Airlines Flight 77, from Virginia to Los Angeles, California, scheduled for September 11, 2001.

     79. On or about August 26, 2001, Waleed al-Shehri and Wail al-Shehri made reservations on American Airlines Flight 11, from Boston, Massachusetts, to Los Angeles, California, scheduled for September 11, 2001, listing a telephone number in Florida ("Florida Telephone #1") as a contact number.

     80. On or about August 27, 2001, reservations for electronic, one-way tickets were made for Fayez Ahmed and Mohald al-Shehri, for United Airlines Flight 175, from Boston, Massachusetts, to Los Angeles, California, scheduled for September 11, 2001, listing Florida Telephone Number #1 as a contact number.

     81. On or about August 27, 2001, Nawaf al-Hazmi and Salem al-Hazmi booked flights on American Airlines Flight 77.

     82. On or about August 28, 2001, Satam al-Suqami purchased a ticket with cash for American Airlines Flight 11.

     83. On or about August 28, 2001, Mohammed Atta and Abdulaziz Alomari reserved two seats on American Airlines Flight 11, listing Florida Telephone #1 as a contact number.

     84. On or about August 29, 2001, Ahmed al-Ghamdi and Hamza al-Ghamdi reserved electronic, one-way tickets for United Airlines Flight 175.

     85. On or about August 29, 2001, Ahmed al-Haznawi purchased a ticket on United Airlines Flight 93 from Newark, New Jersey, to San Francisco, California, scheduled for September 11, 2001.

     86. On or about August 30, 2001, Mohammed Atta (#11) purchased a utility tool that contained a knife.

     87. On or about September 3, 2001, in Hamburg, Germany, Ramzi Bin al-Shibh, using the name "Ahad Sabet," received approximately $1500 by wire transfer from "Hashim Ahmed" in UAE.

     88. On or about September 4, 2001, Mohammed Atta (#11) sent a FedEx package from Florida to UAE.

     89. On or about September 5, 2001, Ramzi Bin al-Shibh traveled from Dusseldorf, Germany, to Madrid, Spain, and did not return to Germany.

     90. On or about September 6, 2001, Satam al-Suqami (#11) and Abdulaziz Alomari (#11) flew from Florida to Boston.

This is the kind of stuff you need, and you don't have. This is not WMD the Bush Administration gambled on finding in Iraq. They have the goods on these people. Al Qaeda operatives attacked America on 9/11/2001.

[Abe Linkman]

18. GPS: Right. They set up LHOswald's rifle purchase, too.

There were certainly news reports of GPS purchases, but that doesn't prove anything. Do you have evidence that Arabs purchased GPS equipment for the purpose of crashing planes on 9/11 for OsamaBL?

Do you have any evidence that Arab terrorists programmed GPS equipment to do aeronautical acrobats whose finale would be a spiral ending just prior to crashing into the least likely part of the Pentagon that actual terrorists would have chosen?

Oswald went to work at the Texas School Book Depository on 11/22/63, and was in the building at the time of JFK's assassination. For those who don't remember; Oswald as a patsie. Set up to take the blame. There's every reason to think the same thing about Osama's boys; and no evidence to the contrary.

[Bolo Boffin]

20. This retreat into JFK CT smacks of desperation, Abe

The thread is supposed to be about Barbara Olson comments, but all we've talked about is Global Hawk and GPS and now we're getting to Oswald as a patsy?

At least I can understand why you'd think Global Hawk was relevent to Barbara Olson.

I don't personally have the evidence, but the DOJ does:

http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/moussaouiindictment.htm

[Abe Linkman]

22. Official Story Conspiracy defenders & LHOswald are relevant

GPS and the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle used by Oswald are very relevant, even if you can't afford to acknowledge it. Just as we have a long history of our government's use of Patsies, so do we also have a long history of efforts to keep the public ignorant of both.

[Bolo Boffin]

25. To Barbara Olson??????

:crazy:

What's obvious is that you have a long history in misunderstanding what you see happening in the world. You are quite dedicated to your delusion, and there's no amount of reality that will dissuade you from your beliefs.

This is called Unfalsifiablity. It's a sign of unscientific, fallacious thinking. There is NOTHING that can falsify your claims - nothing is allowed to. You've already said that the DOJ evidence is fraudulent. Nothing is allowed to displace your pet theories. Your understanding is supreme; all reality must bow to it, and this is the hallmark of fallacious thinking.

Oswald bought a rifle. He shot JFK with it.

Al Qaeda hijacked airplanes and crashed them into American buildings.

Facts. The sooner you accept them, the sooner you get some credibility back.

[Abe Linkman]

30. I didn't know Posner has a twin.

Let's get back to how those GPS units were programmed for the big air show and finale. You can defend the Official Story version (and coverup) of JFK's assassination another time.

[Bolo Boffin]

38. How to Program a GPS unit for the big air show and finale.

Go to location you wish to fly to (correct face of WTC, downtown Washington).

Get GPS reading.

If needed, calculate appropriate altitude.

On plane, copy GPS reading into autopilot.

If needed, program altitude change.

Sit back and watch the plane fly itself into the preprogrammed setting.

Any questions?

[DulceDecorum]

45. And speaking of the Kennedys and remote controlled aircraft....

Never wanting to be far behind the Air Force, the Navy adopted the Aphrodite technique, using its version of the B-24, but with two pilots who also were to bail out over England, while their aircraft was to proceed under radio control to submarine pens at Heligoland, Germany. The first pilot was Navy Lt. Joseph Kennedy, Jr., older brother of John F. Kennedy, 35th US President. His copilot was Lt. Bud Willy. While still over England, the aircraft exploded, killing both men.
No aircraft subsequently launched under Project Aphrodite or its Navy counterpart hit its target. As the Germans retreated in the weeks after D-Day, the large sites in France no longer were within their reach, and the project was abandoned. Despite its lack of success, Aphrodite was a daring, imaginative undertaking that might be considered a first, short step toward the development of American guided missiles. The crews that volunteered for these missions were stepping into an unprecedented, but dangerous, venture. For each of them, it was an act of exceptional valor.
http://www.afa.org/magazine/valor/0897valor.asp

And for those of you who like embroidery:
http://www.orwelltoday.com/jfkbrother.shtml

[Bolo Boffin]

47. Well, thank you for that, Dulce.

Don't know what it has to do with anything, but thank you for that interlude.

[DulceDecorum]

52. Yeah

like there are so many like wires and stuff in the cockpit,
so like how do you know where to plug it in dude?

Like especially if you grew up reading Arabic and then studied in German and bought something with like the instructions all in English. Like how do you read the manual man?

And like if you are smart enough to figure this whole thing out, like why don't you put your talents to good use? And make some investments on the stock exchange and like only pretend you died while you spend the money?

And then, like if you have all those women all over you after you dude, like aren't you going to need a couple crates of viagra, like for breakfast?
These guys WANTED to live like Ron Jeremy?
Like that was what they were after?
Dude that is so lame I can hardly like believe they could ever even hold a pen with the pointy side facing down.

[demodewd]

28. Low

... enough to crash indeed...no thought of coordinating a dive from a higher elevation. And "all they needed was a plan"...and everything would just fall into place as planned. They would meet no resistance from the passengers or flight crew. There would be no glitches. I don't believe your LIHOP( LIHOP means MIHOP) people would allow things to happen that way. Too too much room for human error. Too many uncontrollable variables. No this "plan" is too loose. Too loose Lautrec!I work with a box cutter frequently in my small business and frankly I don't recall referring to that particular tool as such(boxcutter) until after 9-11.The odds of 3 consecutive phone calls referring to these implements as box cutters is in MHO exceedingly high. As for video footage of the alleged highjackers in the lobbies...what makes you so sure that they do have evidence? And why hasn't that been made public when we have photographic evidence of Atta and buddy in Portland.What better way to dispel public doubts about Moslem extremist involvement.If the FBI had the photos they would have plastered in every newspaper. "In Zacarias Moussaoui's indictment, the government lists the bulk of evidence they have concerning the hijackers' movements in the months and weeks before the 9/11 attacks." So...any good intelligence operation is going to do a professional frame-up.

[Abe Linkman]

29. demodewd telling it like it is

"So...any good intelligence operation is going to do a professional frame-up."

Yep, and they also make use of professional PR spinners.

[Bolo Boffin]

34. Know of any you'd like to point out, Abe?

The moderators would be very interested in knowing a Bush-paid PR spinner is operating here at DU. You will be so kind as to show your evidence of such?

Ta.

[Bolo Boffin]

33. There were glitches

The last plane was 40 minutes late taking off. The passengers on that plane were thus warned of the terrorist attacks and rose up against them. That plane went down in Pennsylvania instead of lopping off the Rotunda.

I've always called those tools "boxcutters". Perhaps people have done things different from the way you've always done things. Take a Dramimine for that culture shock...

What better way to dispel public doubt...

Ummm, maybe you haven't noticed, but there isn't that much public doubt in this case. People exposing their rationalizations and fallacious thinking on a website is not any kind of public doubt that BushCo is interested in.

professional frame-up

See remarks addressed to Abe concerning Unfalsifiability. Your rationale has just undermined any way of ever proving anything about what happens wherever. Unless that's your goal, you're going to have to back up and accept evidence unless you have good contrary evidence that impeaches it. Since you don't, you must...

Do over.

[demodewd]

40. God Forbid!

According to Mr Bolo American Intelligence never plants evidence or disinformation and plays people for patsies. Especially on that day of 9-11. God forbid! Or shall I say the Corporate State forbid!

[Bolo Boffin]

48. No, No, No, No, No.

I have never said that the US Intelligence Community has never planted evidence or disinformation or played people as patsies. You're putting words into my mouth.

I'm saying that the overwhelming amount of evidence concerning the 9/11 attacks points exclusively to Al Qaeda terrorists, and is of such volume that no one group, even as honed and efficient a group as the US Intelligence Community{/sarcasm}, could have manufactured and planted it all.

This is a fallacious belief: "Any action that benefits the interests of BushCo was perpetrated by them." I will give three thumbs up to anyone that can cite the appropriate logical fallacy that this statement falls under.

[demodewd]

50. Underwhelming overwhelmingness

What overwhelming evidence...certainly the voluminousity hasn't spewed forth from your posts. Sorry but Rumsfeld,Myers & Boys certainly were well aware that 2 planes were heading in the direction of the DC area and they didn't even evacuate the building.

[DulceDecorum]

51. Come on people!!!

Give the man a break!!

Boloboffin states:
"I'm saying that the overwhelming amount of evidence concerning the 9/11 attacks points exclusively to Al Qaeda terrorists, and is of such volume that no one group, even as honed and efficient a group as the US Intelligence Community{/sarcasm}, could have manufactured and planted it all."

Come on people, think about it.
Osama (hooked up to a dialysis machine) vs the CIA.
How could he lose?
That Osama is one smart dude. His IQ is almost three digits.
How do you suppose he has evaded US Intelligence?

No crackhead writer of a failed sitcom could have manufactured a script like this. Admit it people, just admit it.
And now let's get back to Barbara Olson.

[QuietStorm]

5. UAV links (various sales and specs) Israel and the US corners this market

1997: Here come the UAV's

http://www.afa.org/magazine/sept1997/0997robot_print.html

September 1997 Vol. 80, No. 9
Here come the unmanned and "uninhabited" aircraft.
The Robotic Air Force

By John A. Tirpak, Senior Editor

At Indian Springs, Nev., an odd-looking Air Force airplane rolled "off the perch" and made its final approach. Its bulbous nose, spindly wings, and overall "upside-down" appearance were striking, though the stenciled names of the pilot and crew chief and its unit markings and other insignia gave the gray aircraft an air of familiarity. The pilot flared the landing, brakes were applied, and another 12-hour mission had come to an end. Yet no one jumped out of the aircraft. No one was aboard.

This was no ghost airplane. It was the RQ-1 Predator, operated by the 11th Reconnaissance Squadron. It is the Air Force's first operational example of a new breed of unmanned aerial vehicles. Smarter, and expected to be cheaper and more reliable than the drones of decades past, Predator and its new-wave UAV kin are paving the way for what could be extensive use of "robot" airplanes. Designed and built for jobs too boring, hazardous, or expensive for aircrews to fly, UAVs may become a prominent feature of early 21st century air warfare.

"UAVs are going to be a big, high leverage, payoff capability for us," said Air Force Maj. Gen. Kenneth R. Israel, who heads the Defense Airborne Reconnaissance Office (DARO). "UAVs not only save lives, but they also really are very inexpensive to operate." Israel added that, in a force structure characterized by a "high-low mix" of aircraft, UAVs could have an important niche. "They make a difference in the way you fight, in the way you think," he asserted, noting that, in ground war games where UAVs play a role, "everybody ... is watching the sky" for the snooping robotic airplanes.


--------------------------

JANE'S: UAV'S 2002

http://www.janes.com/regional_news/americas/news/juav/juav020719_2_n.shtml

Unmanned air vehicle summer season begins at UAV 2002 19 July 2002

By Kenneth Munson, Editor, Jane's Unmanned Aerial Vehicles and Targets

Unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) entered what might be termed a 'summer season' of attention on 11 June 2002 with the opening in Paris of Euro UVS's four-day UAV 2002 conference and exhibition. Similar events follow closely, in the form of AUVSI's symposium in Orlando, Florida (9-11 July) and Shephard's UV 2002 in London (17-19 July), bracketed by the Eurosatory defence exhibition in Paris (17-21 June) and the Farnborough International air show in the UK (22-28 July), both encompassing displays of UAV-related wares. The timing is particularly apposite this year, given the renewed focus on UAV activity generated by their use over Afghanistan in Operation 'Enduring Freedom'.
Military aspects of UAVs were, however, confined mainly to the second half of UAV 2002, the first two days of which were devoted to the increasingly pressing need to formulate airworthiness and air traffic management standards before such craft can be allowed to operate in controlled commercial airspace with the same freedoms as manned aircraft. If this can be achieved, the market potential for civil UAVs is considerable, and delegates (over 200 from 22 countries) were given updates on the efforts of UCARE (UAVs: Concerted Action for Regulations) in Europe and AUVSI (with the Federal Aviation Administration) in the United States. (Further details of these activities can be found on www.ucare-network.org and www.auvsi.org .)


--------------------------

UAV's: so who's making them?

http://dmoz.org/Bookmarks/G/gps/UAV_and_RPV_Air_Vehicles/


* Alliant Techsystems - Aerospace and Defense developer and manufacturer including munitions, smart weapons and precision capabilities, propulsion, and composite structures.

* Boeing - DarkStar UAV - DarkStar is a high-altitude, endurance UAV optimized for reconnaissance in highly defended areas. It will operate within current military force structure and with existing 3Ci infrastructure. Range >500 nautical miles, loiter >8 hours, operating ceiling > 45,000 feet.

* General Atomics Aeronautical Systems - Designs and produces state-of-the-art unmanned aircraft systems. Cusomers include: U.S. Government, USAF, NASA, Department of Energy and the U.S. Navy, and overseas customers.

* IAI Israel Aircraft Industries Ltd. - Designer and manufacturer of a wide range of UAV vehicles and sub-systems.

* Lockheed Martin - Aerospace company with wide and varied product range including: aircraft, missiles, spacecraft, land, sea and under water vehicles.

* Lockheed Martin Skunk Works - DarkStar - Developer partners in association with Boeing on the DarkStar UAV Project.

* Northrop Grumman Corp. - Designer, systems integrator and manufacturer of military surveillance and combat aircraft, UAV, defense electronics and systems, precision weapons, commercial and military aerostructures.

* Scaled Composites, LLC - Aerospace and specialty composites development company located in Mojave, CA. Founded by Burt Rutan. The company has broad experience in air vehicle design, tooling, and manufacturing, composite structure design, analysis and fabrication, and developmental flight test.


--------------------------

http://www.imi-israel.com/

HomeOperating UnitsAdvanced SystemsMSOV - Modular Stand-Off Vehicle

Advanced Systems: MSOV - Modular Stand-Off Vehicle
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MSOV - Modular Stand-Off Vehicle TALD - Tactical Air Launched Decoy ITALD - Improved Tactical Air Launched Decoy MAPATS - Man Portable Anti Tank System MAJIC 1 - Missile Active Jammer In Combat


MSOV is a 2300 lbs. standoff air-launched glider dispenser, aimed at area targets such as airfields, SAM sites, dispersed equipment and personnel and maritime installations. With its 1490 lbs. modular-dispensing warhead, MSOV can deploy a variety of submunitions including anti-tank mines, dual-purpose bomblets, anti-runway penetrators etc.

A GPS/INS navigation system along with a state of the art avionics enables an on-the-ground or in-flight programming for autonomous gliding profile, and optimal direction of approach towards the target.

Based on its unique design, folding wings, and 30-in. suspension lugs, MSOV is compatible with fighter aircraft such as F-16, F-4, F-15 and others.

The development of MSOV is based on the updated operational needs of air-to-surface missions, along with the state of the art experience of IMI in the aerial standoff weapon systems.

In April '98 IMI concluded the initial development stage with a first demo flight test on an Israel Air Force F-16, including safe separation and wing deployment.

Main Characteristics:
Total weight
Payload/Warhead
Length
Max Range 1050 Kg
675 kg/ 0.36 m3
3.97 m
100 Km

HomeOperating UnitsAdvanced SystemsTALD - Tactical Air Launched Decoy



TALD is an air launched glide decoy equipped with wide band radar passive and active repeaters. When deployed, TALD is aimed to stimulate enemy anti aircraft sites for AR suppression, diversion or saturation of their radar screens.

TALD can be multi-carried on standard ejection racks and launched form most modern fighting aircraft with no modifications to the aircraft avionics. It can glide along a variety of preprogrammed mission maneuvers and can be launched in multiple flight patterns, at high and low altitudes, including toss mode.

TALD requires no maintenance and can be programmed shortly, just before flight.

During the Gulf War and the conflict in Bosnia, TALDs were successfully deployed with impressive results. Enemy anti-aircraft capability was halted and lives were saved while allied aircraft safely gained air superiority.

TALD can be configured as an aerial target for S/A and A/A missile training; it is currently used by the US Navy and the Israeli Air Force (IAF).

Main Characteristics:

Weight
Length
Win Span (unfolded)
Launch Speed
Launch Altitude
Range
RF Payload


------------
U.S. calls Israel on drones in China: 'Zero sales to Beijing'



http://216.26.163.62/2002/ss_israel_07_03.html

U.S. calls Israel on drones in China: 'Zero sales to Beijing'

SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM
Wednesday, July 3, 2002

WASHINGTON — The Bush administration has warned Israel not to sell major weapons systems to China after a report in The Washington Times that Israeli drones or unmanned air vehicles had been deployed near Taiwan.

U.S. officials said Israeli and Chinese envoys have been discussing the sale of Israeli strategic systems to Beijing. They said these systems could be used in any attack on Taiwan or the U.S. military presence in the region.

"The message has been relayed now so there are no misunderstandings," an official said. "The administration is not interested in negotiating with Israel on what it could sell to China. It wants zero sales to Beijing."


-----------------

Israel's High Tech Hit Squad wins elite status

http://www.worldtribune.com/wta/Archive-2001/me-israel-01-13b.html

Israel's high tech hit squad wins elite status

SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM
Saturday, January 13, 2001

"We sat down with him and recognized the need for such a UAV," Sofrin said. "At this point, the tactical UAV does not have a special budget."

-------------------

Jan 2000 S. Korea buys 100 UAV's from Israel

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/Archive-2000/ea-seoul-01-11.html

S. Korea buys 100 unmanned aerial vehicles from Israel


SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM
Tuesday, January 11, 2000

TEL AVIV -- South Korea has agreed to purchase 100 unmanned aerial vehicles from Israel in a $52 million deal.

A statement by the Korean Defense Ministry on Monday said the Israeli-made Harpy UAVs will be used to bolster Seoul's defense against its northern communist neighbor. The ministry said South Korea is focusing on air defense.

The Harpy can pinpoint enemy artillery, radar and missile systems and attack them. The UAV is manufactured by Israel Aircraft Industries Ltd., Lod.

Officials said South Korea also seeks to purchase the Israeli-made Popeye air-to-ground and U.S.-made Harpoon ship-to-ship missiles.

--------------

Israel Meeting the Challenge

And who can blame them?

http://www.idf.il/english/history/future4.stm

MEETING THE CHALLENGES
The Homefront

Based on the the experience of the Gulf War when Israel's cities were hit by Iraqi Scud missles, the IDF is focusing its attention on protecting the civilian population from the threat of missiles and the possibility of a non-conventional war. The IDF is currently recognizing and strengthening the civil defense under the Homefront Command to coordinate IDF and civilian emergency services in time of war. It is also modifying its doctrine to minimize the danger of a possible non-conventional attack.


2002: Israel sells attack drones to Turkey

http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-news-0331.html

Israel sells attack drones to Turkey


By METEHAN DEMIR
Jerusalem Post
August 11, 2002

Israel and Turkey are continuing to strengthen strategic ties and are pursuing a number of defences projects. Turkish sources told The Jerusalem Post over the weekend that the Turkish military is expected to buy a total of 108 unmanned, combat air-vehicles, or UCAVs, from Israel.


---------

1999: Israel sells IAI drones to Finland

http://www.jpost.com/com/Archive/03.Oct.1999/Business/Article-1.html

Sunday, October 3, 1999 23 Tishri 5760 Updated Sun., Oct. 03 12:23

Finland buys $20 million in IAI drones
By ARIEH O'SULLIVAN

LOD (October 1) - Finland has ordered six "Ranger" unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV) systems developed by Israel Aircraft Industries and manufactured by an Israeli-Swiss consortium in a deal worth $20 million.

The Ranger was developed by IAI's MALAT division for the Swiss armed forces, and three Ranger UAV systems have been delivered to them in the past six months.

The Ranger was designed for day and night battlefield reconnaissance and surveillance. It has been optimized for use in difficult weather and geographical conditions known to both Switzerland and Finland, an IAI statement said. MALAT is a senior member of the consortium led by Oerlikon-Contraves in Zurich. The aerial vehicle is made by the Swiss Aircraft and Systems Enterprise Corp.

--------------

2000 First batch reached India from Isreal

http://www.dawn.com/2001/01/30/top8.htm

January 30, 2001

New Delhi inducts Unmanned Aerial Vehicles along LoC

NEW DELHI, Jan 29: India has inducted state-of-the-art Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) for a foolproof security along the line of control and international border with Pakistan and China.

Latest UAVs from Israel including Heron, Searcher-I and Searchers-II, have been inducted into surveillance set up along borders at Drass, Mushkoh valley, Turtuk, Thang, Battalik, Kargil, Chorbat La and Tiger Hills in Kargil sector and Kupwara in Kashmir sector, highly-placed defence ministry sources said.


--------------

[QuietStorm]

6. Drones various models

-------------------------
THIS IS THE ONE WITH A LONG ENOUGH WINGSPAN TO HAVE KNOCKED DOWN THOSE LAMPOST

RQ-4 Global Hawk

http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/rq-4_global_hawk.pl


RQ-1A Predator

The Predator A was deployed operationally by the Central Intelligence Agency and the US Air Force (USAF) in the mid-1990s and the UK MoD was briefed on the system at the same time.

http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jdw/jdw030701_1_n.shtml

The Predator air vehicle is 27-ft. in length and has a 49-ft. wingspan. The system operates at an altitude up to 45,000-ft. and at a range of 400 nautical miles.

http://www.radome.net/usaf-predator.html

Altair/Predator B
Altair UAV soon to join NASA's research/test fleet

The first UAV to have complex triple-redundant flight controls and avionics systems, Altair will have a mission endurance of up to 32 hours. It can reach a maximum altitude of about 52,000 feet (10 miles), and will have a maximum range of about 4,200 miles. It can carry up to 750 pounds (340 kg) of sensors, radar, communications and imaging equipment in its forward fuselage. The Altair is 34 feet (10.4 meters) long, and has a wingspan of 86 feet (26.2 meters), 22 feet longer than the Predator B's 64-foot wingspan.

http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/rq-1_predator.pl

http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Newsroom/ResearchUpdate/PredatorB/

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2003/jun/HQ_03193_altair.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2002/020827-uav1.htm

--------------

ADM-141A Tactical Air-Launched Decoy (TALD)
ADM-141C Improved TALD (ITALD) (SOLELY OUT OF ISRAEL)

The Tactical Air-Launched Decoy (TALD)/Improved TALD (ITALD) heavy glide/boosted family of passive/active decoys are expendable decoys used in offensive operations against enemy air defense systems by diluting and confusing surface-based and airborne defenses with realistic tactical target characteristics. The TALD is an air-launched, aerodynamic vehicle whose purpose is to minimize the effectiveness of an enemy's air defense system. The TALD is a preprogrammed glide vehicle used to increase the survivability of strike aircraft. The Improved TALD (ITALD) is a TALD which incorporates a propulsion unit. Both systems operate as expendable vehicles with no recovery capabilities. Launch platforms include the F/A-18, F-14, EA-6B, and the P-3.

The TALD is an air launched, preprogrammed, unpowered, glide chaff, RF passive, or RF active vehicle used to deceive and saturate enemy integrated air defenses during strike aircraft operations. The three operational TALD configurations include, the A/B37U-1 (V1) chaff vehicle, A/B37U-1 (V2) radar passive vehicle and the ADM-141A radar active vehicle. While fit, form and function remain the same within version, manufacturing differences have produced variants.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/tald.htm


LIST OF UAV'S WITH MAKERS

http://www.aeronautics.ru/uavlist.htm

[Abe Linkman]

8. #1 Reason why PR Spinners seem to prevail in controversies like this one

Official Story PR Spinners dominate debates about 9/11 primarily because the mainstream media ("straight press", as it used to be called) cops out of the debate out of fear they'll be labeled "conspiracy nuts" by the right-wing pundits of radio, TV, cable, and the Internet.

Some of the most well-known liberal media members like Pacifica Radio, "The Nation" and "The Progressive", even "Counterpunch" all receive Ford Foundation (known to have a relationhip with intelligence agencies) grant money, so they aren't about to "rock the boat" for fear of losing de Monet.

That gives the PR Spinners (who have access to unlimited resources) a huge advantage over those of us who feel we've never been told the full truth about what actually happened on 9/11; much less who was behind it.

Thus, defenders of the alleged Olson phone calls get the benefit of the doubt ("only a conspiracy theorist would question the word of her husband"), and neither the mainstream press nor much of the liberal media will even touch the controversy; much less ask hard questions, and dig deeper for more complete, truthful answers.

[Bolo Boffin]

12. Poor Abe

The poor people who feel they've never been told the truth - struggling against the Ford Foundation and its minions on the left.

:nopity:

Perhaps the reason you don't prevail in debates like this is that you're WRONG. Acceptance of basic historical facts would go a long way toward easing your plight.

[Abe Linkman]

13. "Poor old Spinning Boffin"

The Official Story spinners just never quit. Perhaps the reason disinfo spinners don't prevail in debates like this is that with each new "spin"
of the 9/11 fairy tale, your bias against basic historical facts is revealed more clearly.

[Bolo Boffin]

14. The whirlwind of Abe's distortions just keeps on a'blowing

I thought your "disinfo spinners" just keep selling the same story - Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon, the WTC buildings fell w/o explosives. They remain remarkably consistent, while the doubters come up with one fantastic scheme after another. Death rays, missiles from remote controlled fighters, Israelis framing Saudis, controlled explosives, Hillary Clinton, anybody, anybody at all but the people who really did it - Al Qaeda terrorists.

Perhaps if you could produce real evidence instead of weird speculation, you might come closer to exonerating those outstanding moral citizens of the world. Why, they're just harmless little fuzzballs out camping in the Afghani hills - they don't mean no harm! Why's everybody picking on the Al Qaeda guys?

:nopity:

[Abe Linkman]

19. "The evidence of boloSpinner's defense of fairy tales keeps on a'blowin'

Perhaps if you could produce real evidence that the 9/11 self-attacks were the result of "incompetence and negligence", people would be less inclined to assume that the spinners here are nothing more than paid shills.

Or, when you refer to "incompetence and negligence" is that referring to OBL and the boys...for allowing themselves to be unwittingly set up?

[Bolo Boffin]

21. 28 pages of real evidence, Abe

As yet to be released, but boy, are the leaks a'springing...

Evidence that Bush was actually informed of the great likelihood of Al Qaeda hijacking airplanes and crashing into US buildings.

Evidence of Saudi and Pakistani complicity in Al Qaeda attacks and funding.

Evidence of BushCo's hampering of investigations into Saudi and bin Laden family affairs.

It's all in there, it's all coming out. Hide and watch.

[Abe Linkman]

23. When backed into a corner, claim Unintentional negligence

Unless evidence is released which dissproves MIHOP theories; your "real" evidence is nothing more than playing defense - diverting attention from the truth of what happened, onto a very fuzzy, vague defense of benign negligence.

If things get very hot, they'll fire the defender messengers.

[Bolo Boffin]

27. Criminal negligence is what I'm claiming, Linkman

BushCo should be shown the door of public opinion and exiled from society for their sheer lack of being able to get the slightest task in their charge done. Bill Clinton kept these people at bay with one hand tied behind his back.

It's time this country had a competent chief executive again.

[demodewd]

24. re:fuzzballs

"Why, they're just harmless little fuzzballs out camping in the Afghani hills"...With your apparent anti Arab stereotyping,it's no wonder you've gotten suckered into the Arab mystique hoax.

[Bolo Boffin]

26. Apparent anti Arab stereotyping?????? Arab Mystique Hoax???

LOL!

You'd like to believe that I'm an anti-Arab bigot, wouldn't you? Go ahead, it has as much to do with the facts as your pet theories about 9/11.

Content of character is what I'm judging the terrorists of 9/11 by, demodewd. Same goes for the Bush Administration. Content of their character. They were as Muslim as Jerry Falwell and crew are Christians. It has nothing to do with their ethnicity and everything to do with their own personal actions.

Do over.

[demodewd]

32. Do over bolo.

Guilty by content of character? That's not evidence.And what was Atta's character? Have you researched this? He was a playboy coke snorting lush who sacked up for a time with a high priced call girl. So you are stereotyping when obviously you haven't the facts. Nothing in his recorded behavior(and others) intimates Moslem devoutness.

[Bolo Boffin]

36. Do Reading Comprehension 101 over, demodewd.

You're quite willing to judge his character by his actions, demodewd, as do I, as do I. I said that they were as Muslim as Jerry Falwell was Christian - which is to say - NOT! Fanaticism distorts every religion to the point that the founders would not recognize the followers.

And if you were convinced you had a guaranteed ticket to heaven, cutting loose definitely becomes an option, doesn't it? Enjoy the decadence of Western culture, then hijack a plane for Allah - go directly to heaven!

It's not Muslim devoutness at all - true Islam revolts at the concept.

[demodewd]

39. There's always the first time

They weren't in practicing terms Muslem at all. Whereas Falwell as much as we may be turned off by his religiosity,truly believes he is devout.And he and those who follow him aren't crashing airplanes into buildings. Apples and oranges. Do over. Thus the alleged discovery of the Koran at the Logan Airport is obviously an intelligence plant....."And if you were convinced you had a guaranteed ticket to heaven, cutting loose definitely becomes an option, doesn't it? Enjoy the decadence of Western culture, then hijack a plane for Allah - go directly to heaven!" Pure conjecture on your part...it doesn't prove a darn thing.I've never met a hedonist that was into self sacrifice. But then there's always the first time.

[Bolo Boffin]

41. No, people who listen to Falwell et al. shoot abortion doctors

True, it doesn't prove a darn thing, but there's always a first time. Thank you.

[Abe Linkman]

31. Be very careful, demodewd - one of their tactics is...

baiting people into saying something they can use to get you banned from here.

[demodewd]

35. not to worry

I'm not too worried. I haven't called anyone a masturbator yet! :crazy:

[Bolo Boffin]

37. Happened to you before, has it, Abe?

Tell us all about the paid disinfo agents here at the DU...

[Abe Linkman]

43. Paid disinfo agents here at the DU...

haven't directly announced their presence. Guess that means there aren't any here, unless you know of some.

Do you?

[Turbulence]

57. Lions and tigers and bears

oh my! they are everywhere aren't they? The emperor wears armani and there is a beancounter behind that curtain and the best and brightest are on madison ave... and all is the same as it ever was. ah yeah let's conquer the world and the planet then maybe the federationalists will put us in our place as the lowly apes we really are.

[number6]

42. kick...

...

[DulceDecorum]

44. A little background

Boloboffin appears to be a big fan of Barbara Olson.
He has ALWAYS defended her Horror and only recently seems to have woken up to the fact that she was absolutely VENOMOUS towards one Hillary Clinton who, according to Boloboffin's un-impeachable sources, had more than just a little something to do with the OJ Simpson mess.

Boloboffin, what PROOF do you have for the mush?
ACTUAL PROOF.

If the hijackers could remote control the plane from inside it, why didn't the enterprising boozehounds try to do the same thing WITHOUT actually boarding the plane?
Or perhaps the living hijackers DID manage to do this and somehow forgot to tell the allegedly dead ones.

BAD BAD.
Maybe they preferred a slut in the hand to 72 virgins in the Hereafter.
Boloboffin, how come these guys are still walking around?

And remind me again:
If those hijackers could actually FLY a Boeing in the first place, WHY did they need over the counter GPS units to do the job?
And if you can fly a Boeing 757 or 767 with a GPS unit, then why bother paying a pilot to do the job?

Why not redesign the cockpit around the GPS unit and call it Local Hawk?
Or Global Pigeon?
Or Loco Pigeon?

And please let us know why you get so mad when we discuss the resurrection of Barbara?
You know very well that we cannot have her beatified into a saint unless she performs a miracle?
She never did anything holy when she was alive, but her resurrection ought to fix that.

Barbara, don't just LIE there, get up and show those hijackers something they have never had before!
Give them a longue lashing!!
You can lick them!!!

Anyway, I STILL think that the FBI
(and Michael Chertoff who has named at least one of the living as a codefendant in a case currently before the bench)
ought to have managed to find some time in their rather busy schedule, to QUESTION these people who claim to be the ones listed on the FBI website.

What do you think, Bolo?

[Bolo Boffin]

49. Sigh...

Weren't there some questions of mine you were supposed to be answering, Dulce? Have you ever? No. Go find those questions on the DU archive, and answer them, please.

Bolo has never been a fan of Barbara Olson. Bolo has always known what a excrutiating bitch the woman was to the last elected president of the United States. Your only reason for stating this is that I believe she died the way we have been told she died. This is hardly a defense of her life and her work, it is only a defense of the truth.

The "enterprising boozehounds" of Al Qaeda couldn't externally control the planes. They weren't built to be externally controlled. All evidence points to ordinary planes, equipped with autopilots that internally control the planes by programming a destination.

As for hiring pilots when GPS units will do the job: GPS units can't fly a plane, and autopilots haven't mastered the trick of taking off and landing.

You continue to confuse the hijackers with the people whose identities were stolen by the hijackers. The hijackers of 9/11, one and all, are dead.

When have you discussed the resurrection of Barbara? Perhaps it was in the middle of one of your longer excursions into tangential nonsense, and I missed it.

How do you know that the "living hijackers," the people who are victims of identity theft, were NOT interviewed by the FBI - or the CIA, rather, the FBI sticks to domestic investigations, right? Are you intimately connected to these people? If they haven't, then they should be. I'd agree with that.

[DulceDecorum]

55. I don't remember

you asking questions, but I do seem to remember you making allegations that might have earned you an warm invitation from Barbara if she were aware and officially alive.

I realise that you are having difficulty grasping one of my posts, so let me help you out on that.

Some people were heard to say that September 11 reminded them of what happened at Pearl Harbour. Meanwhile, we were talking about remote controlled aircraft. Especially those in which the humans bail out well before impact.

Radio Controlled Bomber Drone.
Project Aphrodite.
The idea was to pack an aged bomber with 10 tons of explosives and fly it into the impregnable submarine pens on the French coast. A pilot was required to get the bomber airborne and trimmed so that a controlling plane could fly it to the target. The first plane exploded over England before the pilot had bailed out. The pilot was Navy Lt Joseph Kennedy, eldest son of that family, who was being groomed for the presidency, a post later held by the second son, John F. Kennedy.
http://www.ww2pacific.com/ideas.html

As the air war progressed, B-17 and B-24 bombers literally began to wear out. These surplus bombers occupied valuable ramp space and even more valuable maintenance time. By late 1943, General Arnold had directed Brig Gen Grandison Gardner’s Eglin Field engineers to outfit these “Weary Willies” with AUTOMATIC PILOTS so that THE AIRPLANES, both B-17s and B-24s, COULD BE FILLED WITH TNT OR LIQUID PETROLEUM AND REMOTELY FLOWN to enemy targets. THE IDEA BEHIND PROJECT APHRODITE WAS TO CRASH THE ORPHAN AIRCRAFT INTO THE TARGET, A LARGE CITY OR INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX, DETONATING THE EXPLOSIVES. General Spaatz utilized several of these “guided missiles” in the fall of 1944 against targets in Europe. They were largely unsuccessful because they were easy to shoot down before they reached the target area. At Yalta, shortly after the first Willies were used in combat, the British vetoed further Aphrodite missions because of possible German retaliation to the undeniable “terror” nature of the weapon. Weary Willies were grounded after Yalta, much to General Arnold’s disappointment.
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj97/fal97/daso.html

Personally, I find it odd that no-one has ever told Condi
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice (bio)
about how the older Kennedy boy died.
Or maybe she just has the same difficulty connecting dots as you do, Bolo.
So, to recap, the US military has been working on flying remote controlled bomb or fuel-laden planes into buildings and large cities ever since World War Two.
Foidermore, four miles from the runways of Washington Dulles International Airport:

On 9/11, CIA Was Running Simulation of a Plane Crashing into a Building
http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/cia-simulation.htm

[Bolo Boffin]

63. What allegations are you talking about?

And if I'd received a warm invitation from Barbara Olson, I would have accepted it - just so I could tell the woman what I thought of her to her face. I would not have received another.

[Catherine Vincent]

53. I felt kind of sad when it was told she was on one of those planes.

Hard to believe, but I actually did. When she was alive she really made me mad a lot of times of the things she said and wrote about the Clinton's. And she would always have that smile on her face. I couldn't believe her. But when I heard on the news she was one of the victims on the plane I felt a little sad. It's kind of hard to explain. I said some things about her when she was alive but I can't bring myself to say anything bad about her now that she is deceased. I still remember the C-Span caller that told her while she was a guest that she is evil. Barbara didn't know what to say and was somewhat shocked.

[Abe Linkman]

54. Lots of right-wing celebrity worshipers felt bad, too.

After all, Mrs. Olson's magnetic personality, sparkling wit, and elevated rhetoric gave strength and comfort to many a budding Fascist.

[DulceDecorum]

56. I understand

that Dorian Gray who had sold his soul to the Devil in exchange for eternal youth, got rather upset the last time he looked at the portrait that showed him as he really was.
As a matter of fact, he was so revolted that he destroyed it, and with it, himself.
I wonder when John-the-disciple is going to follow suit.
http://www.nationalreview.com/derbyshire/derbyshire021501.shtml

I also wonder how Brazil is, this time of the year....

[Catherine Vincent]

58. I remember that article.

What a sad human being. Can someone like him feel ashamed for writing something like that?

Someone showed him in a portrait as the devil? I'd like to see that!

[Bolo Boffin]

61. John Derbyshire is pathological.

And that article proves it, Dulce. Ick.

[Turbulence]

59. yes

empathy is an important attribute. Hard learned by some. Can infuriate the lot of us that do attemtp the exercise especially when the we have to walk in the same shoes over and over and over and those shoes might tend to instead trample over those walking in their shoes to stampede over others.

[leetrisck]

60. I tried to feel sad and then I thought

of the destruction she had created. She was another "smut slut" like Coluter.

[Turbulence]

62. someone told me to read coulter

that perhaps I would get a clue what was really going on. The power of the right is so hypnotizing really. It makes brillance out of ignorance.

[DulceDecorum]

64. The Nazis?

Recently, a visitor to this forum had the temerity to refer to yours truly as a nazi for closely examining the life, and alleged death, of Barbara Olson and for pointing out that one Arab Muslim man who supposedly hijacked Flight 77 is still very much alive.

The terms Neo-Nazism and Neo-Fascism refer to any social or political movement founded on the ideology and symbolism of Nazism or Fascism.
Neo-Nazi movements are generally anti-Semitic, racist, and xenophobic.
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism

This accusation was MOST disconcerting to a person who actually enjoys studying Jewish religious law and who is also very well aware of exactly which groups have been labelled as terrorists by BOTH the US State Department as well as the government of Israel.
http://www.terrorismanswers.com/terrorism/introduction.html

You will recall that, according the mass media, Barbara Olson died as a result of the terrorist hijacking of Flight 77.
You will also recall that Barbara Olson NEVER missed an opportunity, including her own demise, to lash out at Democrats in general and Hillary Clinton in particular.
http://usembassy-australia.state.gov/hyper/2000/0814/epf105.htm
http://www.jewishsf.com/bk000818/1ademoconfab.shtml
http://www.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcripts/2000/12/19/zuckermanolson/

Knowing that both pots and kettles in the past, have united to allege that entire herds of sheep were legally black,
http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/9/8/02341
http://www.terrorismanswers.com/groups/kkc2.html
it became imperative to determine if there was indeed any connection whatsoever between Barbara Bracher FirstHusband Olson and the Nazis of World War Two.

It turns out there there is no connection.

Barbara was a Texan, from a family whose ancestors came to this country from Germany. She went to the all-American University of Texas and also a Catholic college, St. Thomas in Houston. She became a professional ballet dancer in San Francisco and New York because of the beauty of dance, the rigor of its discipline, and because you have to be extraordinarily tough and ambitious to do it. And Barbara was extraordinarily tough and ambitious.
http://www.fed-soc.org/BKOlsonMemorialLecture/bkolsonlecture-111601.htm

Barbara Bracher was of German stock.
But then again, according to Al Martin, so is Karl Rove.

And where would Rove go? Karl Rove, it should be noted, is a dual citizen of the United States and Germany. Because of his position he has special diplomatic status. The idea is that if its absolutely necessary he could go to Switzerland where he couldn’t be extradited.
http://www.almartinraw.com/public/column106.html

Being German does NOT automatically make one a Nazi.
A lot of the people who wound up badly singed, hair and all, in Birchenau, the concentration camp, were themselves German.
http://home.earthlink.net/~lskennen1/Birkenau/birkenau.htm

What is true is that Karl Rove personally knew Barbara Olson and attended a service held for her.

The goodbyes came faster in Washington, where the physical destruction was more limited. Pentagon rescue workers quickly reached the grim conclusion that no one could be alive in the charred wreckage, so families were free to plan their farewells. Conservative commentator Barbara Olson was remembered just four days after the crash with a service at the Cathedral of St. Thomas More in Arlington. Sens. Phil Gramm, Orrin Hatch, Mitch McConnell, and Don Nichols sat in the first two rows. Two of President Bush's top advisers, Karl Rove and Karen Hughes, sat just behind them, listening to sermons and eulogies that were not just a celebration of life, but a grim call for justice.
And justice, sometimes morphing into revenge, was the theme as Washington returned to work. Talk radio callers demanded an immediate, indiscriminate flexing of America's military muscle, but the Bush administration worked feverishly to gather intelligence on alleged mastermind Osama bin Laden and to build an international coalition against him.
http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/09-29-01/cover_1.asp

But it is hardly fair to blame either Barbara Olson or Karl Rove for the actions of Osama bin Where-the-hell-is-he-anyway?

A little over two months after his wife was killed on September 11, Ted Olson, the Solicitor General of the United States, received a photograph from the US Air Force. It showed a laser-guided missile before it was launched from a strike aircraft against a Taliban target in Afghanistan. The name Barbara Olson had been chalked on the side of the weapon in her memory.
"It looked like a 500lb bomb," says Ted Olson, his grief-racked face creasing into a smile for the first time in nearly an hour. "She would have liked that. Barbara was a warrior, so she would have wanted to fight back. And she would have applauded the people who did go and fight back."
Karl Rove, President Bush's chief political strategist, has described Barbara, a writer, lawyer and political commentator, as "Ted's departed Spitfire".
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/2002/telegraph030502.html

Most Arab-Americans and Muslims were EXTREMELY saddened by the events of September 11, 2001.
http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/09/17/muslims/

In June 2001,(Sami) Al-Arian was among members of the American Muslim Council invited to the White House complex for a briefing by Bush political adviser Karl Rove.
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/03/11/Floridian/Friends_in_high_place.shtml
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31172
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,79131,00.html

Arab-Americans and Muslims could take some -- some -- comfort in a Reuters/Zogby poll released Monday. Eighty-four percent of those polled said that the U.S. was at war with a small group of terrorists who may be Muslim, as opposed to 8 percent who assessed the U.S. to be at war with Islam in general.
http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/09/17/muslims/index2.html
http://www.usforacle.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2002/09/09/3d7c9506c1a4b

You will recall that both Hillary Clinton AND Al Gore WON their respective races,
http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/08/08/hillary8_8.a.tm/
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=gore+won
although Hillary was the only one who attained office.

Karl Rove had a lot do with the fact that George W Bush is eating pretzels in the White house.
But it is NOT his fault that Ted Olson and William Pierce have the same birthday.
http://books.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,11617,763067,00.html
"The enemy of our enemy is, for now at least, our friends...we may not want them marrying our daughters...but anyone who is willing to drive a plane into a building to kill Jews is alright by me. I wish our members had half as much testicular fortitude.".
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Pierce
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Alliance

That is the extent of the connection between Karl Rove and Barbara Olson.
And there is NO REASON to call this woman, or anyone else on this forum, a nazi.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3255.htm

[Turbulence]

65. oh you mean THOSE nazi's!

We don't want to talk about those nazi's. why talk about actual nazi's? have you heard much about otto reich lately?

and ON EDIT when it comes to terrorism, does the CFR also have a list of the who has actually been responsible for the paramilitarizing and training of some of the worlds most wanted terrorists? I'd like to see how the CFR's list of THOSE terrorist training and arming experts compares with mine.

[DulceDecorum]

66. Oooh, Look at Sleeping Beauty

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/911-flightpaths-bases.htm

[LARED]

67. It would be a far more interesting map

if it showed military bases that actually have fighter jets located on them.

[DulceDecorum]

69. Show me the money!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=5354&forum=DCForumID43&archive=yes

Once all civil aircraft had been cleared from U.S. skies following the Sept. 11 attacks, a small group of Air Force reservists and FAA air traffic experts started working on the inevitable next phase--how to restore the National Airspace System.
<snip>
On Sept. 11, military flights approved under Scatana's Wartime Air Traffic Priority List covered flights by U.S. and Canadian top government officials; "aircraft engaged in active continental defense missions"; airborne command and control aircraft; forces supporting and being deployed for combat operations, and search-and-rescue missions. Other issues demanding immediate ATSC attention included:

Four airline and National Transportation Safety Board "go teams" responsible for securing crash sites in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania.

Aircraft fighting several major fires in California.

Treasury Dept. movement of funds. Because nobody knew whether more large-scale attacks were imminent and where they might occur, Treasury officials requested approval for 200 flights to distribute about $25 billion in cash among major financial institutions.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/2002/aviationweekspacetechnology061002.html

Read that again:
Treasury officials requested approval for 200 flights to distribute about $25 billion in cash among major financial institutions.

Lared, where were all the fighter jets on September 11, 2001?

[LARED]

71. I read it five times

Read that again:
Treasury officials requested approval for 200 flights to distribute about $25 billion in cash among major financial institutions.

Lared, where were all the fighter jets on September 11, 2001?

I have no clue what your point is? Or do you think fighter jets distribute cash around the country?

[DulceDecorum]

72. Every time large amounts of cash move around

they are guarded.

If four planes have just been hijacked
and you decide to move 25 BILLION dollars (with a B)
around the country,
PRECISELY BECAUSE FOUR PLANES HAVE JUST BEEN HIJACKED,
what kind of plane would you use?

Lared tell us, did Bush enjoy the protection of fighter jets while cruising around the national airspace on September 11, 2001?

Lared, tell us, do we have ANY bases WHATSOEVER with fighter jets ready to defend us TODAY?

[LARED]

76. This is turning into an unsavory habit

Why I continue to even respond is a mystery. But I'll indulge myself one more time.

Every time large amounts of cash move around they are guarded.

Are they? Guarded by who? I know on the ground they are guarded, are they in flight?

PRECISELY BECAUSE FOUR PLANES HAVE JUST BEEN HIJACKED,

Now I'm not a financial guy, but I'm pretty sure the money was being moved because there were fears that other financial institutions may be attacked. Not because airplanes were hijacked. I sort of doubt moving 25 billion dollars in a day via air is a routine affair no matter if it's 9/11 or not. Also if my memory serves correctly it was not a request to move all this money on 9/11 only to get the 200 flights approved.


what kind of plane would you use?

I'm not a expert on jets, but I kinda doubt F-16's or other varieties of fighter jets are well suited to transport large volumes of cash. Hard to imagine the payload spec including storing a few billion on board just in case it's needed.

Lared tell us, did Bush enjoy the protection of fighter jets while cruising around the national airspace on September 11, 2001?

I watch a bit of a show last night that indicated that true. Why you find this intriguing is well --- intriguing.

Lared, tell us, do we have ANY bases WHATSOEVER with fighter jets ready to defend us TODAY?

Jeez I hope so.

[DulceDecorum]

79. Why guard a planeful of cash?

It's not like it can get hijacked or sumfin.

[DulceDecorum]

74. A far more interesting map

The United States has established its presence of military power throughout the world via various worldwide events. However, the defense of our homeland came under scrutiny after the disaster of September 11th. As two airliners headed towards the World Trade Center, military aircraft were scrambled, but it seemed to be too late. The US has numerous aircraft bases scattered around the US, but are they where they need to be located? This project takes a look at the bases around the US and the coverage zones provided by F-15 Eagles and F-16 Falcons.
http://atlas2.atlas.uiuc.edu/Fall%2002/geog379/jbdecker/public_html/GEOG379/Project/Fighter%20Jet%20Response%20Times%20in%20the%20United%20States.htm

Did they build and buy all these planes AFTER September 11?
Or were they already present on these bases on that day itself?

As a part of heightened homeland defense, the missions began after terrorist hijackers crashed jetliners into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. They have flown constantly over New York and Washington since then.
<snip>
The operation uses 11,000 people and 250 aircraft, another official said, also in return for anonymity. Those figures include maintenance crews, pilots for 100 F-15 and F-16 fighter jets, as well as crews for tankers needed for midair refueling and AWACS — Airborne Warning and Control System — planes to provide radar information.
http://web.dailycamera.com/news/terror/jan02/14apatrol.html

Did they train all these pilots and support staff AFTER September 11?
Or were these experienced personnel told to stand down on September 11?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=5609&forum=DCForumID43&archive=yes

Or were they busy doing something else?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=5354&forum=DCForumID43&archive=yes#12

Stand Down
1. To end a state of readiness or alert.
2. To go off duty.
3. To withdraw, as from a political contest.
http://www.standdown.net/

[LARED]

77. Nice map

Althought I fail to see how that 'proves' there was a stand down. Assuming that is your point.

[DulceDecorum]

68. The Linda E.

Theodore Olson is part of the Olson family that left Norway and settled in Doors County nn Wisconsin.
He has a cousins in the Weborg family. Some of the Weborgs were fishermen. Leif Weborg owned and operated a fishing boat called the Linda E. The boat disappeared Dec. 11, 1998, while returning to Port Washington with a load of fish.
Just like that.
Gone.
Three men, vanished.
That family has NO LUCK on the Eleventh of the month.

Weborg said he last saw his cousin in May when the Olsons came up to Door County for a Weborg/Olson family reunion.
"They were here on Memorial Day for the reunion and a fish boil," Weborg said. "We just talked about family."
The loss of Barbara Olson isn't the first time tragedy has befallen a Weborg relative. Jeff Weborg's cousin Leif died almost three years ago when his fishing boat, the Linda E., was rammed by a barge off of Port Washington.
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brew/sep01/olson13091201a.asp

So, ever since 1998, the Weborg/Olson/Matta family has been asking
Wherdy go?

Although no bodies were seen Sunday, the three men aboard the boat - Leif Weborg, Scott Matta and Warren G. Olson - are presumed drowned. All three lived in Milwaukee.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jun00/2lindas2061900.asp

U.S. Representative Mark Green (R-Green Bay) had requested the search on behalf of families of the three Linda E crew members believed drowned when the boat was lost. The cause of the sinking is still unknown.
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/news/news_stories/defender.html

And guess what?
Cellphones are involved in this mystery too.

For 60 years, fishermen made a living on the Linda E. The 42-foot steel-hulled gill-netter took them far out into Lake Michigan and, even in the gales of winters, always brought them back. Until December 11, 1998, when the Linda E. disappeared with her crew of three.
The boat’s disappearance was complete, perfect in a terrible way. There was no distress signal, not so much as a fragment of wreckage, not a trace. It was a mystery then, and as this is written one year later, it is still a mystery that tortures the families of the lost fishermen and, in a different way, tortures the U.S. Coast Guard.
As if to underscore the fickleness of fate, this survivor of the brutal weather of so many winters disappeared on an uncharacteristically benign day on Lake Michigan—cloudless, a light southerly breeze, a small swell. The boat left its berth in Port Washington, Wisconsin, before sunrise. Later, from a location only nine miles from port, a crewman used a cellular telephone to call the the local fish processing house to report a good catch of half a ton of chubs. These were the last words ever heard from the Linda E.
http://www.sailnet.com/sailing/00/f&bfeb00.htm

The barge passed through the area southeast of Port Washington between 11:30 a.m. and 12:05 p.m. on Dec. 11, 1998, the report said. That's the day the 42-foot Linda E vanished after the crew answered a cellular telephone call from Smith Brothers Fish Co. in Port Washington at 9:46 a.m. and said they would be coming in with a load of fish.
http://www.beloitdailynews.com/1299/2wis9.htm

What was that time again?
9:46 AM?
Isn't that about the same time that Barbara completed her call?
But to return to the Linda E., who called who?
Don't the records show this?

Well, at least we know which ships were in the vicinity.
Or do we?
http://reef.atmos.colostate.edu/drummond/GLSHIPS/uscg.html

Ooh, this is getting erie......

For about 60 hours, the Coast Guard searched for the Linda E with five search-and-rescue boats, three helicopters and a jet airplane. About 100 people were involved.
The effort to find the Linda E even was aided by two aircraft from the U.S. and Canadian air forces.
The vessel's owner, Leif Weborg, his son-in-law, Scott Matta, and an employee, Warren Olson, were aboard when the boat disappeared Dec. 11.
Commercial fisherman Charles Henricksen of Baileys Harbor described the search for the Linda E as "massive".
"The search-and-rescue stuff they did was incredible - the equipment they brought in and all the boats," he said. "I believe it was as comprehensive a search as they've ever had on Lake Michigan."
The formal search for the Linda E has been suspended, but the investigation remains open, Moorlag said.
Unlike the Kennedy case, no debris were found, he said.
"We found absolutely no clues to allow us to determine what happened," he said.
http://www.uscg.mil/d9/grumil/press/archive/004.html

The Linda E. never arrived in Port Washington. No distress call was received, though she carried a marine radio and the crewmen carried cell phones. In spite of the fact that few commercial vessels are plying the lake at that time of year, a massive search-and-rescue effort failed to discover any trace of her three-man crew, floating wreckage, or even a tell-tale oil slick.
http://www.maritimeheritagecenter.org/lindae.htm

None of the theories about her loss seem realistic when one considers the total absence of debris or wreckage both on the surface and on nearby beaches. Nearly every vessel loss produces some kind of debris field which tells of the accident. The Linda E however, left no tell tale signs as to her fate. Subsequent searches by hundreds of volunteers who combed the beaches came up empty handed. Professional searchers from the Coast Guard and the military failed to locate any debris both from the water and from the air. Given the construction of steel fish tugs, it is almost inconceivable that the Linda E could have foundered outright without leaving debris. Such vessels are internally buoyant and can remain on the surface even when completely waterlogged.
http://my.execpc.com/~bbaillod/SchoonerX/2ships.html

NO DEBRIS?
Not even a bunch of dead fish floating around?
Oh my goodness
WHERDY GO?

Oh but look!! look!!
They found a piece that has letters on it!!!!

A 30-second videotape, taken by a mini-submarine and released to news media Monday, shows the 42-foot vessel on the bottom in 260 feet of water off Port Washington.
Silt obstructs most of the videotape, but the name ``Linda E.'' can be seen clearly on the starboard side, said U.S. Rep. Mark Green, R-Green Bay, who pushed for the Navy search.
<snip>
But they still don't know what happened to the Linda E.
The last anyone heard of the vessel was a cell phone call Weborg placed to Smith Brothers Food Service in Port Washington the morning of Dec. 11, 1998. He said the boat was bound for port with 1,000 pounds of chub. The weather was clear.
http://www.beloitdailynews.com/600/2wis20.htm

And they found the fishies.

PORT WASHINGTON, Wis. (AP) _ Nets set in Lake Michigan by three commercial fishermen who vanished, along with their boat, were retrieved by friends and relatives trying to understand how the Linda E could have disappeared.
<snip>
Yellow ribbons tied on downtown lamp posts Monday were about the only signs of hope for three men missing since their 42-foot boat, the Linda E, disappeared Friday.
<snip>
After the nets were hauled in Monday, the fish caught in them were sold. The nets were the only sign of the men brought in so far.
http://www.beloitdailynews.com/1298/5wis15.htm

How many passengers are talking about?
In either case?

Sep. 14, 2001
Barbara Olson, the wife of U.S. Solicitor General Ted Olson, died when her hijacked passenger plane slammed into the Pentagon. She is related to the family through her husband.
Ted Olson is a second cousin of Mark Weborg, a commercial fisherman from the northern tip of Door County.
Weborg said the family went though a similar grieving process almost three years ago when another cousin, Leif Weborg, was lost while fishing on the Linda E in Lake Michigan. The Linda E was struck by another boat and sank. The tug and the bodies of its FOUR PASSENGERS were recovered in June 2000.
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/news/archive/local_1126770.shtml

Hmmm.
I thought they never found the bodies.

Although no bodies were seen Sunday, the three men aboard the boat - Leif Weborg, Scott Matta and Warren G. Olson - are presumed drowned. All three lived in Milwaukee.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jun00/2lindas2061900.asp

July 3, 2000
The tug is resting on the lake bottom, buried in mud up to her water line, Coast Guard Cmdr. David Lersch said. The M-ROVER could not determine if there was any damage to the areas stuck in the mud. During the initial Coast Guard investigation, investigators told family members the most likely scenario for the sinking was that the fish tug was rammed by a barge. Investigators also said the tug could have had a hull failure or hit a partially submerged object. NO SIGNS OF THE CREW'S REMAINS WERE SEEN BY THE M-ROVER, Lersch said. The investigation is now being treated as a "marine casualty investigation," Lersch said. "It is not a criminal investigation."
http://www.harborhouse.com/Log/logarchive/28/14.html

The Coast Guard's final report on the sinking of the Linda E. confirmed what had long been suspected: The fishing boat was rammed by a barge nearly 400 times more massive - so huge that the barge's crew did not see, hear or feel the impact.
But the officers of the tug-barge combination Michigan/Great Lakes should have been able to see the Linda E. on their radar screens at least 30 minutes before the collision, and even a minor course change would have been enough to avoid the Dec. 11, 1998, crash, said Lt. Cmdr. Bryan Emond, the Coast Guard's chief investigator.
<snip>
Gorney, of Traverse City, Mich., did not return a telephone call seeking comment. In a December 1999 interview, he stood by his statements to the Coast Guard that he did not see, hear or feel the collision. Grady could not be reached for comment.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/Metro/oct00/lindae15101400a.asp

Although no bodies were seen Sunday, the three men aboard the boat - Leif Weborg, Scott Matta and Warren G. Olson - are presumed drowned. All three lived in Milwaukee.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jun00/2lindas2061900.asp

Remember where the guy said that ships like the Linda E. have this strong tendency to float?

Given the construction of steel fish tugs, it is almost inconceivable that the Linda E could have foundered outright without leaving debris. Such vessels are internally buoyant and can remain on the surface even when completely waterlogged.
http://my.execpc.com/~bbaillod/SchoonerX/2ships.html

Well, maybe he does not know as much about flotation as does the Coast Guard.

The Linda E, a 42-foot fishing boat disappeared in calm, clear weather in Lake Michigan, near Port Washington.
The Coast Guard called off the search for the wreck after two days.
After the U.S. Navy found the vessel in 260 feet of water in June of 2000, the Coast Guard determined it was struck by a 454-foot tug/barge combination and sank in about two seconds.
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/news/archive/local_6694291.shtml

TWO SECONDS
How many knots is that?
Kinky.
Damn.
That boat sank faster than than than --- anything I can think of.

When the barge hit the Linda E., the smaller boat would have rolled over on its side, sending tons of water rushing through open doors, (Lt. Cmdr. Bryan Emond, the Coast Guard's chief investigator)
said. Lacking watertight compartments, the boat would have sunk in two or three seconds, far too fast for the crew to escape or to send a distress call, he said.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/Metro/oct00/lindae15101400a.asp?format=print

But it turns out that BP Amoco owns the company that owns the barge that may or may not have rammed the Linda E.
So the families are suing BP Amoco.
And each other.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/Metro/jul00/linda18071700a.asp
http://www.jsonline.com/news/Metro/jul00/nichcol19071800a.asp

And Ted Olson is still around.
I wonder if they can ask him for legal help.....

[Bolo Boffin]

70. Your point?

I assume you have one, other than your constant obsession with DerridaDeconstructionism.

Boats sink, especially when hit by much bigger boats. Your parallels between Barbara's death and the fishermen's death are about as convincing as the parallels between Lincoln's death and JFK's - it's certainly following the same logic.

[DulceDecorum]

73. No debris, not even an oil slick

DAMN.
Why couldn't the Exxon Valdez be more like the Linda E.?

It is just curious that the same family has had two incidents in which people and craft vanished under highly unusual circumstances.

Cellphone calls.
Lack of debris.
Oops sorry, they did get one nice piece that had letters all over.

Bodies (or in your case Bolo, MUSH) never recovered.
Yellow ribbons.
Videotape "proof" of a collision.
Missing Arabs....

There are a lot of similarities.

Boloboffin, you said that the Linda E. was hit by another boat.
Last time I checked that had YET to be proven.
But I will give you this,
Both sets of missing Olson family members are linked to Florida.
And it looks downright careless of our solicitor general, to lose that many cousins and a live-in lover that far away from the Bermuda Triangle.
That boat vanished like the damn Moonraker in the James Bond film.
And as for Flight 77,
WHERDY GO, Boloboffin, WHERDY GO?

And now a word fom a highly credible source:
http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JONAH+1&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on
http://jokes.overnow.com/jokes/001040.html

[Bolo Boffin]

75. Lots of similarities, that's your point?

"It's curious?" That's the point?

What conclusion do you find these similarities indicate, Dulce? I know that's counter to your deconstructionistic tendencies, but still - the wreck of the Linda E. and the Pentagon crash are similar in various ways, and that means....?

I said the Linda E. sank from a crash based on the articles you quoted which said, basically, the Linda E. sank from a crash. The Coast Guard concluded that this was probably the case.

And you're really pumping the 'debris field' meme, which is a key component of Burmuda Triangle stories (something else you also mention). I recall mentioning that a favorite book of mine is Lawrence David Kusche's The Burmuda Triangle Mystery Solved, in which Kusche debunks the mystical power of that fabled plot of ocean. Are you dredging up this story just to entertain me? Gosh, you're sweet.

:loveya:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Of course, maybe you're upset that I've claimed a measure of understanding where you're coming from, and so you've decided to deconstruct that notion in my head by being even more pointlessly trivial in this forum. Gosh, I didn't know you cared so deeply about how I think about you.

:loveya:

You are just a sweety when push comes to shove. And if Derrida questions this in the afterlife, you tell him I said so. You guys will end up on the same side of the great gulf, after all, right?

:pals: :grouphug: O8)

[DulceDecorum]

78. Huh?

Wotcha bin :smoke:

Meme?

Or are you trying to say that Barbara Kay turned into this?