Believing the OCT=buying Tenet's BS

[noise]

Feel free to explain why I'm a "conspiracy nut" for not buying Tenet's story. It seems the reason he and Bush got along so well is because they are both unashamed liars.

A good review of Tenet's defense of torture

How good is Tenet's word? Why was he willing to resort to torture but unwilling to hold a single CIA official accountable for their pre-9/11 conduct?

Even Philip Zelikow didn't trust Tenet. This is a guy who trusts Condoleezza Rice yet draws the line with Tenet!

[hack89]

1. What does Tenet have to do with CD, holograms, min-nukes

and all the more esoteric truther theories?

I would have a less problem if you were to simply say that the CIA tricked a bunch of patsies into hijacking and flying planes into the WTC and Pentagon. Haven't you noticed that it is all the pseudo science BS that the truth movement is infested with that raises the biggest objections from the OCT supporters?

[HamdenRice]

2. You seem to be the main one obsessed with holograms

and btw, if you are so certain that George Bush has personal conversations with Jesus every night, how come he couldn't tell god to protect us on 9/11?

Your position doesn't make any logical sense.

[hack89]

8. You have to admit that pseudo science

And scientific ignorance permeates the truth movement. Look at this forum - we are not arguing passionately about pre-911 intelligence or the money trail. The majority of the large threads involve CD, no-planes, min-nukes, massive conspiracies, etc. I know that Bush is hiding pre-911 crimes. But arguing against things I know to be physically impossible does not make me a Bushbot blindly believing
whatever the government says. I know this is hard to believe, but many of us here have the education and experience to evaluate what happened on 911 by ourselves - the government does not control that kind of knowledge.

I don't understand your comment about Bush talking to God - perhaps you have mistaken me for some one else?

[HamdenRice]

9. There is no polite way to say this but: what a dumb post

The reason no one is posting about the money trail or intelligence is because you OCTabarnacles have driven away almost everyone except the no planers with your constant ridicule, thread hijacking, discussion disruption and snark. You do know, don't you, that Daniel Hopsicker himself used to post here, right? And Nicholas Levis, Bryan Sacks, Jeff Wells, etc., right? Who in their right mind would come here for a serious discussion?

And no, I haven't mistaken you with anyone else. I'm using your impaired logic:

1. There are supporters of the official theory who believe that Bush talks to Jesus.

2. You are a supporter of the official theory.

3. Therefore you and everyone else who supports the official theory ust believe that Bush talks to Jesus. QED.

Now, for the purposes of this ridiculous forum, you can never, ever convince me that you don't believe that Bush talks to Jesus every night.

[hack89]

16. Hopsicker, Levis, Sacks, and Wells no longer post here

or on any site where they receive opposition for two simple reasons:

It is hard on their egos

It is hard on their wallets.

Six years after 911 and look where they and their "truth" movement are - a fringe internet phenomena with absolutely no credibly or influence with the American public. They are rightfully considered charlatans trying to make a buck.

Fortunately, come January 2009 it will all come to an end. Bush will be gone and the movement will deflate as the anger that animates it will disappear. Obama as President yet no new investigation, no whistle blowers, no new evidence - who's a truther to blame now?

How long will you think it will take for the right wing hate machine that dogged Clinton to revive and start blaming Clinton and Obama for 911? They will become the face of the truth movement. After all, right wing haters are a minor but influential part of the the truth movement now - look no further than Christopher Bollyn and the American Free Press. Come 2010, I think you will have a interesting moral choice to make.

[HamdenRice]

18. Many of your posts just don't make any sense

and this is a good example. Just how does it cost any of those people money to post here? It doesn't. You live in a counter-factual world that makes me discount virtually everything you write in this forum.

You also consistently over the years write that the 9/11 truth movement is motivated by hatred of Bush. Putting aside why hating a self-confessed war criminal is a bad thing, your "analysis" always overlooks the fact that 3,000 people were killed and several blocks of New York City were destroyed. That, not Bush hatred, is the motivation for getting to the bottom of 9/11. But like most OCTabots, who seem to have little sense of human decency, murder just doesn't bother you. The motivation for getting to the bottom of 9/11 is "crime and punishment," a concept that seems always to elude you. Considering that chairmen of the 9/11 Commission report do not stand by their own report, it is now publicly stipulated by all rational people -- not including you of course -- that not everyone involved has been punished.

But obviously you live in some fantasy world in which the only motivation for getting to the bottom of 9/11 is ... -- well, I don't live in that world, so I can't follow your alternate world reasoning and don't even know what you are trying to say.

[hack89]

19. They are trying to sell a product - they can't sell it here. Not enough adoring acolytes.

I have several time repudiated the 911 Commission report as a political whitewash - I have also called for a new investigation. I really think Bush committed impeachable offenses pre-911. Once again - it is the pseudo science and scientific ignorance of the truth movement that I post against here. Hence my preoccupation with the charlatans who peddle cd, false planes, death rays etc. Like it or not, they are the face of the truth movement - you are deluding your self if you don't think hatred of Bush is not a prime motivator.


We will see in a year or so who is right. I think you have a lot of disappointment ahead of you.

[HamdenRice]

21. So you think Bush talks to Jesus, hate Bush and are in this forum to make money?

You keep making the same logical mistake over and over and over again. It's relentless with you.

For future reference it's called the "fallacy of composition," and it's a mistake that OCTabots make with unrelenting regularity -- it is inferring something about the whole from a characteristic of a part.

Let's say that some truth activist is in it to make money. (You have never once provided one iota of evidence that that is anyone's motivation, but that's another problem with your thinking; we'll assume it for the sake of argument.) You then infer that everyone is in it for money.

Same with Bush hatred. No one on this board has ever said they are interested in 9/11 because of Bush hatred. But assuming you have met someone for whom that is the motivation, it is stupefyingly illogical to infer that is every skeptic's motivation.

So now you think the 9/11 Commission Report is a white wash? If it is a white wash, what are they covering up? You now agree with people you infer hate bush.

But you think all they are covering up is incompetence. Some people who believe that also believe Bush talks to Jesus every night.

So now by your own ridiculous logic, applying the fallacy of composition, you think Bush talks to Jesus, hate Bush and are in this forum to make money.

Can't you see how utterly preposterous your reasoning is?

[hack89]

22. Like I said, we will see in a year or so.

I find amusing to be lectured on logic by you - but then anyone who claims special knowledge that the great unwashed are too dumb to see are always amusing.

BTW - you really believe that the "fallacy of composition" is a not common in the true movement? You have to admit that it is a "my way or the highway" kind of community. Why is Bushbot such a popular phrase if not to smear anyone that refuses to accept every aspect of the "truth" no matter how bizarre.


In the meantime, I see no point in continuing this conversation - your mind is clearly made up.

[HamdenRice]

23. Is that a promise?

"I see no point in continuing this conversation..."

Will you promise never, ever to respond to any post I ever make on DU?

Because as I've written elsewhere, you have contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion at DU, in this forum or elsewhere. You have nothing whatsoever to say that is interesting, informative or logical. You are a dull, uninteresting, repetitive, and ultimately boring poster whose fuction seems only to be to clog up threads.

Are you really never going to be in conversation with me? Promise?

Woohoo!!!

[CJCRANE]

24. Form my vantage point

you're correct about CD - it does seem to be a major component of the truth movement, but fake planes and lasers are pretty much ignored by the majority of truthers.

There is also plenty of research into (and information about) the political, financial and espionage side of 9/11. If you think that's important you could draw attention to that kind of information instead of complaining.

And like HamdenRice I'm also amazed at how many people (not just OCTers on DU) seem to have little curiosity about exactly how and why the biggest terrorist attack in history happened.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[noise]

4. Aren't you concerned about Tenet's lack of credibility?

This is one of the key officials who made the case that torture was required to prevent follow up attacks. He has never accounted for his BIZARRE pre-9/11 conduct. Personally, I find Tenet's conduct more upsetting than someone pushing hologram theories.

[hack89]

7. Totally irrelevant

Tenant is a lying sack of shit. That still does not make the 911 truth movement right. The fact that I reject the truth movements wackier theories does not mean I believe Tenant or accept torture. It is not an either/or situation.

[noise]

11. If Tenet isn't trustworthy

then what does that say about the 9/11 Commission report? The commission relied on CIA's transcripts of interrogations. They accepted Tenet's weird watchlisting failure explanations.

[hack89]

15. The 9/11 Commission report was a political whitewash

there is no question about that. It glossed over impeachable crimes. But Tenant has nothing to do with the NIST report and his truthfulness is irrelevant when assessing truther CTs like CD, no-planes, mini-nukes, etc, etc. When I question loony tune theories, it does not mean I embrace Bush or Tenant.
Understand now?

[Bolo Boffin]

3. 9/11 is an inside job because Tenet defends torture?

How much of the official story actually rests on Tenet's sole authority and testimony?

[noise]

5. Hard to know

Tenet's defense of torture is worse than if he were simply another authoritarian government official. That is because he knows what truly happened in the lead up to 9/11. He knows the real story regarding al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar. He knows why they weren't watchlisted. He knows who they really were (one theory being that they were Saudi GID agents).

The disconnect between Tenet's pre-9/11 conduct his post 9/11 advocacy of torture is nauseating. Same goes for Bush. It is sad that these two men are portrayed as credible when they advocate for police state counterterrorism measures.

[Bolo Boffin]

6. Well, then, let's talk some specific issues.

How much of the Pentgon plane issue is supported solely by Tenet's word?

The CD of the towers?

The crash at Shanksville?

None whatsoever, right?

Then we get into issues like hijacker identity. How much of that is solely supported by Tenet's word?

[noise]

10. Tenet as CIA's main 9/11 spokesman

plays a key role in the publics understanding of 9/11. It is a HUGE problem that the guy's credibility is in question. One would think the CIA Director would be held to a higher standard of accountability than a citizen blogging about hologram theories. Evidently this is not the case.

[Bolo Boffin]

12. I am asking you questions about specific issues.

Hijacker identities, to be specifically specific (unless you've got evidence of Tenet being the sole source of information on any other of the specific issues I mentioned).

What evidence of the hijackers' identities rests solely on Tenet's testimony?

[noise]

13. We are told the FBI investigated and established

hijacker identities. That investigation was led by Pasquale D'Amuro who later took a job with Giuliani Partners.

[Bolo Boffin]

14. How much of that investigation depends upon Tenet's testimony?

That's the question I'm asking you.

[noise]

17. I don't know

As CIA Director he set the tone for CTC officials like Black, Wilshire and Rich B. So we aren't just talking about Tenet's personal conduct.