Thoughts about this picture?

[paulthompson]

Today, someone sent me this picture and told me that it came from the video game Red Alert 2, which he says was released before 9/11:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/redalert.html

Note the plane that looks like it's crashing into the WTC.

Undoubtedly this is pure coincidence, much like the Lone Gunmen TV show in the spring of 2001. But still, it's interesting to document these things. So I was wondering if anyone can confirm that the video game - and this image - actually is from before 9/11.

[sabbat hunter]

1. actually if you notice

the plane is bombing the city, note the small objects coming out from under it.

i have played RA2 and i dont remember that scene at all. but i will take a look again.

[TheWraith]

14. Actually, I think those are supposed to be paratroopers.

The picture quality sucks, but it looks like a cargo plane, not a bomber, and the object have the vague shape of parachute canopies. It would also fit with the "invasion" line at the top.

[Contrite]

33. Sort of like this image involving the Pentagon?

[AZCat]

34. I never played RA2.

It looks like you got a whole lot more paratroopers than in RA1. My favorite tactic was to use a napalm strike on a batch of newly-dropped paratroopers. They would all disappear with a "whoomp" followed by screaming. Ahh, the good ol' days of RTS gaming. :)

[Big Pappa]

2. In the game

no one is taking out the towers. But great catch on that picture.

[greyl]

3. Red Alert 2 was released on Oct 10, 2001, but who cares?

Who cares if the picture was created before or after 9/11?
Why is this interesting to a serious 9/11 researcher?
Is 9/11 one of the largest crimes against humanity ever, or is it just a hobby?
Don't you understand your audience for this stuff, or how
meaningless 'clues' placed in their voracious and gullible path can actually
lead them away from the trut...
:think: err ...oh, right.


Maybe Vegas is next.

[ma2007]

4. misleading ?

No if we are aware of the decades-old stories in all parts of cultural treatment of the WTC towers in the decades before 9/11. The picture offers just another view on how often people, writers, painters, filmmakers cast a thought on bringing the towers down.

Yes if anybody thinks the picture would lead to a significant step forward in solving alleged questions. Showing up deviations is a hobby of Mr. Thompson.

[greyl]

5. "Showing up deviations is a hobby of Mr. Thompson." You assert it as fact.

I was only asking a question.

[paulthompson]

6. I said...

It was undoubtedly pure coincidence. I completely agree with your statement: "The picture offers just another view on how often people, writers, painters, filmmakers cast a thought on bringing the towers down."

But I'm not allowed to take a couple of minutes to post the pictures as a curiosity? Sheesh!

[StrictlyRockers]

7. But you are Paul Thompson!

You aren't allowed any fits of whimsy like this...only serious research dammit! Now stop fooling playing RTS computer games from the '90s and get back to work!

Sheesh, the noive of some people, thinking that we allow anything fun or interesting around here.

Back to the galleys with you! :crackswhip:

SR

[greyl]

8. That's kind of my point. He ain't Alex Jones, Tarpley, or Killtown.

They just happen to receive money from the same audience.

edit: changed "get paid by" to "receive money from".

[StrictlyRockers]

9. I don't understand your point. Can you clarify it?

Maybe I am just dense today. I don't know.

SR

[greyl]

10. Read this post by you:

here

[StrictlyRockers]

11. Why?

Do you think that saying we are wacky over and over somehow makes the truth less true?

What is your point? Or are you being intentionally obscure? And why are you addressing me ten seconds after you just told me "bye". I find Loose Change crdible, along with the rest of the planet, well, minus a few wingnuts on the DU 9/11 truth forum. So, apparently you are writing off all of us, the hundreds of millions of people who do find LC credible. Well, only until you suddenly change your mind to post something which seems to make no sense.

SR

[greyl]

12. Yes, I'm gonna marry a carrot. nt

[MervinFerd]

16. Colorless green ideas sleep furiously. ---A. J. Ayer nt

[Kingshakabobo]

17. "minus a few wingnuts on the DU 9/11 truth forum"

LOL....and the OWNER of DU. The guy who thinks YOUR "movement" is "deserving of disdain and ridicule."

Quote:

Skinner ADMIN (1000+ posts) Mon Sep-11-06 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
8. Why is it that people expect 100% perfection from the "official" story...
Edited on Mon Sep-11-06 05:59 PM by Skinner
...but they do not hold the alternative "theories" to nearly such a high standard?

Do I believe that the official story is 100% correct? No.
Do I believe that the official story is WAY closer to the truth than the conspiracy theories? Absolutely.

The conspiracy theories don't hold up to scrutiny. They are mostly a lame collection of faith-based wishful thinking.

Wondering about what happened is not qualification for disdain and ridicule. But if someone believes idiotic claims about controlled demolitions or missing airplanes -- then yes, that person is deserving of disdain and ridicule.

Except for the fact that doing so to another member of this website would be a violation of our personal attacks rule. So don't do it.

[StrictlyRockers]

18. Well I think the quote from Skinner argues my case pretty strongly.

This is the part of the quote that gets me.

Do I believe that the official story is 100% correct? No.
Do I believe that the official story is WAY closer to the truth than the conspiracy theories? Absolutely.

I agree with him when he says the official story is not correct. I am glad that he is at least informed enough to realize this much. From there we go...where? Are we supposed to just trust them on the rest and let it go that they are lying about some of it? Not me, pal. I don't trust my government. I'm not sure why any DUer would. I think Skinner trusts too much, but what do you expect the attitude of someone with a newborn baby to be? I would be hopeful and enthusiastic and ready to believe that I had bought someone into a good world and a country based on truth and integrity. I would NOT be readily amenable to believing in dark visions of conspiracy.

The fact is, I want to live in a country based on the truth, too, just like Skinner and all of you. That's why I work so hard to try to get to the bottom of it. I seek hard evidence, and I don't claim to have anything all figured out.

I am aware of too many lies to just think that these lies are harmless and should be left alone. Skinner probably hasn't done as much research as I have. I doubt any of the doubters have. You are not dumb, only uninformed. I am doing my best to help you with that. Skinner has his hands way too full with DU and a baby to do the kind of probing research this subject requires to become well-informed on the subject. So I don't fault him for his current position, which may be evolving and maturing.

Everyone comes to the subject from a differnt place. I really don't fault any of you for being steadfast in the beliefs you want to hold on to. I respect it. I just think that sooner of later you will wake up and smell the coffee. I'll pour a little cream in for you to make it easier to swallow.

And I will call the OCTers closed-minded over and over again until you turn blue if I can't turn you around on this.

(Ooo, that's sure to work! hehehe)

SR

[AlienSpaceBat]

29. faith based reasoning indeed ...

Do I believe that the official story is 100% correct? No.
Do I believe that the official story is WAY closer to the truth than the conspiracy theories? Absolutely

Presumably the truth deficit that Skinner (et al) identify was caused by accident, and the percentage of the official story they do not believe is of no account.

Why should we consider the official story to be satisfactory, whilst at the same time acknowledging that it isn't correct ? Are the discrepancies too trivial to matter much ?

As a counter-example I have no problem believing the official story regarding the Columbia disaster. If I did suspect that the story there contained factual lies or deliberate significant omissions my starting position would be that those responsible for the problems with the story have done it for a reason, and ipso facto have something to hide.

Considering that I believe the official 9/11 narrative is short of the truth, I conclude that those responsible for creating, propagating and defending it are hiding something (many things), and that is on its face an act of the guilty.

Believing the story lacks credibility, yet is at the same time somehow the truth is archetypal doublethink.

[MervinFerd]

30. But, how do you feel about "dustification" of most of the WTC steel?

'Just asking questions."

[AlienSpaceBat]

42. The steel from WTC 1 & 2

together with the other debris that turned into powder is yet another problem, among hundreds, with the official story.

As I said, given that I think the official story is not 100% correct, I conclude that some (most) of it is a deliberate lie. Anyone who can hold both the view that the story is not correct, but it isn't an untruth, has a serious logic deficit IMHO.

[ThePentaCon]

13. Coincidence

Coincidence.



(Sorry trying to build posts: New)

[StrictlyRockers]

19. Welcome to DU pentacon!

:hi:

:cheers:

[ThePentaCon]

41. Thanks Strictly Rockers

did not see this.

Thank you so very much SR. I hope we can all work and learn together without there being too much negativity getting in the way.

BTW, who is that figure at the bottom of your page?

[ma2007]

39. Mr. Thompson - where are your conclusions ?

When you agree to the sentence

1. the conclusion must be: it was common fear that something might happen to the towers. They were tall AND they symbolized a lot. But why did the Bush administration so fiercely deny any IMAGINATION something like 9/11 could happen ? Why ?

2. And when somebody lies so openly - why should we not conclude that zjey were involved ? The imagination of danger to the towers itself would not at all cause such an allegation. One might discuss if the preparations were sufficient enough or not. But the denial of the imagination leads directly to the cobclusion that the Bushist try to hide any involvement eben in imagination. They overdid it. And you are silent about that.

[paulthompson]

43. There's a huge, huge difference...

...in my opinion, between something like a rap album cover showing a plane hitting the WTC or a video game showing the same, and info that actually may have reached the eys of US intelligence/other officials. For instance, there's an emergency training manual before 9/11 and the cover is a plane about to crash into the WTC. Something like that is more important to me. The cultural stuff has some value, too, but it varies. For instance, Tom Clancy wrote a book in 1995 in which a plane was going to hit the White House, and it was widely talked about, some Senators are even quoted referencing the book scenario as something to worry about before 9/11. So that has value 'cos we can see directly the influence that idea had. But some of the cultural stuff has increasingly marginal value because it's so obvious now that attacks like that were imagined by many, many people that it's like beating a dead horse. I mean, a plane actually crashed into the White House in 1994, so it's hardly rocket science. I have a number of entries on the more important cultural imaginings before 9/11, like the Lone Gunmen episode from early 2001 watched by tens of millions in which the plot was the crash a plane into the WTC.

And I would hardly say I'm silent on the things you're talking about. I've said publicly and in my book that the top Bush administration people need to be impeached for a 9/11 cover up, if nothing else, and that's for starters. It's just like getting Al Capone on tax fraud - you go for the easiest, most provable stuff first. You could put most of them away right now for blatant lies told during their testimonies under oath before the 9/11 Commission. Case in point: Condi Rice saying the info in the August 2001 PDB was historical in nature only, nothing in there more recent that 1998, then less than a week later the text of the PDB is made public and it says there was actionable intelligence from that summer, talking specifically about May 2001, etc... Basically, she was caught in a flat out lie. There should be a prosecutor going after her the way Patrick Fitzgerald is going after Scooter Libby right now and Rice should be put behind bars the same way Libby is probably gonna go to jail for 20 or so years.

What's the fundamental difference between Libby's perjury and Rice's? None. They both didn't just say "I don't remember," but they made up alternate accounts that are obviously false. You could do the same for Tenet, Mueller, Ashcroft, etc... with their 9/11 testimonies. (Even Bush and Cheney, though they didn't testify under oath, could be convicted for lying to a federal official, which is a five year sentence.) That would be step one. Then, with these people facing serious jail time, get some of them to turn on the others and find out about the more serious crimes. That's how it should be done, that's how experienced prosecutors like Fitzgerald normally work their cases. Remember, Nixon wasn't impeached for the Watergate crime, but for the cover up of it. Sadly, there isn't the political will, at least not yet. But you're right, we should start with the blatant lies. That's the easiest stuff to prove.

[ma2007]

44. "First we take Manhatan" -Begore I answer just only

take into account

Huntington or this song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g17SZv5KR7g

by Jennifer Warnes which I heard about 20 years ago the first time on a flight to Manila. My point is: it is not A cover, A rap song, A video - you agreed to the sentence I wrote. It was common to blame the atabs, it was common to fear for the towers.
More tomorrow.

[ma2007]

45. You say it yourself :

1. The cases of Al Capone and of Nixon were based on a prosecution of much minor crimes than everybody knew they committed.

2. So the conclusion is: we are not the prosecutors, we are not police, not FBI, not justice. We must be aware that the official system falls back behind the public knowledge - which is the thrust to impeach. So the thrust must be stronger than the expected outcome.

3. The lies are cristal clear. They did not yet lead to any movement in the political class or the judicial system although they are in the open. You focus on the lies to no avail.

4. I pointed out to the DENIAL of the imagination, and you yourself mention that false allegations are more than a allegedly bad memory. But I ask WHY . The "WHY" question leads to a far wider complex which you constantly ignore.
I you just stae the lies as lies (to cover up the own "incompetence", "not seeing the dots" by the Bushists ?) you yourself cover up the interest in the lies.

5. The interest is to cover up that the Bush administration itself took part in the preparation and perpetration of 9/11. The MASCAL plan, The PRNREN-finishing, the "stand down" procedures, the unproven allegations against arabs, the lies to cover up any foreknowledge build a net system of medial influence of the public according the PNAC plannings. The end is to build up the U.S.A. as a asian superpower managing the oil of the world and the worlds financial system.

This is a short introduction in what is provable. Not provable is how they steered the planes. The technical possibilities are existing which is provable. We just need a single person of the commando Solo guys to finish the last gap. If not - the rest is still good enough.

Again: this photo does not prove a cover up of incompetence by lies. It prove direct preparation:

[Contrite]

31. WRONG! It was released October 21, 2000, not October 10, 2001

Nice attempt at transposition to mislead. I wish people on this forum would research these things for themselves to answer their questions or at least ask for a link when someone asserts that he or she has the definitive answer.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/commandconquerredalert2/index.html

[greyl]

40. According to Amazon, it was October 10, 2001.

If I thought the date of release had any significance, I would have relied on more than one source.

[MervinFerd]

15. What's your point? Is there an hypothesis here, somewhere?

Ok, I understand that you -said- you understand that this is a coincidence. Got it.

But, why take the trouble to capture and post this photo if it's just a meaningless coincidence?

You and I understand this means nothing at all; but before thermite and Death Rays from Space, the 911 "Truth" Movement was built upon photos and coincidences of just about this quality.

It's quite probable that this photo will show up on this Board as "proof" of some unstated or unstatable something or other. And a bunch of us will have to waste time explaining, to people who are too far gone to understand, that the photo means nothing at all.

So, is there a point to this? Video game writers were responsible for 911? OBL got the idea of 911 from a video game? What?



"Just asking questions."

[StrictlyRockers]

20. The point is on top of your head.

[greyl]

21. Your posts are most unimpressive. nt

[StrictlyRockers]

22. Judging from what I have read from you, that is surely to be taken as a compliment.

Thank you. I am reassured now that I am on the right track.

SR

[greyl]

23. "Unimpressive" is not good.

Are you confused?

[StrictlyRockers]

24. I consider you telling me that my posts are "not good" a compliment.

Are YOU the one who is confused?

SR

[Contrite]

32. Now is the time on Sprockets when we dance.

Touch my monkey! Touch it!!!

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Contrite]

37. Whereas your number of nane ones is so high.

Say, isn't that a personal attack, calling someone's posts "inane"--which is against the DU rules?

[AZCat]

38. The "alert" button is down there at the lower left-hand corner of each post.

Feel free to click it when you see a post you think violates the DU rules.

[achtung_circus]

27. Surely this is wrong.

Has it not been clearly demonstrated that the entire concept of using aircraft was communicated by Tom Clancy in code to Osama bin Laden in "Debt of Honor"?

[spooked911]

25. Pure coincidence???

Get real, dude.

[MervinFerd]

26. "There are no coincidences." Right?

See what I mean?

[Big Pappa]

35. The answer I need though is

where were Mario and Luigi during 9-11? Hmmm.

[Contrite]

36. All you need to know is here on Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_&_Conquer:_Red_Alert_2

Controversy

Westwood found itself in a storm of controversy regarding Red Alert 2 after the events of September 11, due to the contents of both the game and its packaging, despite the fact that Red Alert 2 was released before the attack on the World Trade Center. In the first mission of the Soviet campaign, you are required to destroy the Pentagon, and in a later mission, capture the Allied Battle Lab at the base of the twin towers of the World Trade Center, once the Battle Lab is captured a Psychic Beacon is built between the twin towers, the player must then defend the Psychic Beacon for a given amount of time to complete the level. Destroying the two World Trade Center towers (or garrisoning Conscripts in them) in that mission made a crate from each of the towers appear. One crate contained funds for building more units and the other made all of the player's nearby units stronger. In addition, the original packaging for Red Alert 2 had a hinged cover that would open to show a scene of New York City under attack by Soviet forces, with the Twin Towers in the center of the image. Westwood immediately pulled all remaining copies of Red Alert 2 in the original packaging from stores, and retooled the box art before reissuing the game. (Note that the game is not 'outdated' by the attacks, as it takes place in an alternate history.) None of the game's content was changed (except for the names of famous landmarks, see below).

Later versions of the game (after patch) would rename the World Trade Center and other famous landmarks (Arc de Triomphe for one) to more generic names (Arch of Winning for example). This has, ironically, caused a bit of controversy among fans who prefer the original "canon" names; fan made patches are available to restore the original authentic names.

[MervinFerd]

46. It's Phillipine Potatoes falling from the plane!

NYC is being bombed by Potatoes grown in the Phillipines by rebel Phillipine crouton harvesters!