Israel blacklisted by U.S.

[newyorican]

WASHINGTON - Israel is among the world's worst offenders when it comes to violation of intellectual property rights, a U.S. International Trade Commission report says.

The Commission decided to blacklist Israel as one of 14 countries identified as serious infringers when it comes to the protection of intellectual property.

The decision comes mostly as a result of Israeli-American disagreements over the protection of pharmaceutical companies' information. The U.S. says Israeli authorities allow Israeli drug companies to examine research information from patent-holding foreign pharmaceutical companies.

read more...

Is "blacklisting" anything like "boycotting"?

[Gyre]

1. They've "stolen" a few hundred nukes from us (wink, wink),

why not our ideas too? Did you know that filafels are Israeli? (I seem to recollect that they've probably stolen a few things from the Arabs besides filafels).

But lets not be petty. They're gonna help us out with Armageddon, so what're a few little American patents?

Gyre

[Coastie for Truth]

2. Issue has to do with the standard of proof to get injunctive relief

for patent infringement.

Unlike the US - and most European countries - Israel does not generally grant injunctive relief for infringement of patents on therapeutics.

This has been a bone of contention between the US and Israel.

Yes, I do have a therapeutic patent (glucose/H1AC meter incorporated into a PDA type device with a modem) as well as a bunch of other patents - so I am aware of the problems of obtaining injunctive relief in Israel - only damages are available.

The real situation where this comes up is under the Hatch-Waxman Act for generic drugs.

By the way, as you noted

"The decision comes mostly as a result of Israeli-American disagreements over the protection of pharmaceutical companies' information. The U.S. says Israeli authorities allow Israeli drug companies to examine research information from patent-holding foreign pharmaceutical companies.

but under the US Patent Law such information is not secret once the patent has been "published" 18 months after the filing date.

The Patent Code provides:

"§ 112. Specification

(1) The specification shall contain a written description of the invention, and of the manner and process of making and using it, in such full, clear, concise, and exact terms as to enable any person skilled in the art to which it pertains, or with which it is most nearly connected, to make and use the same, and shall set forth the best mode contemplated by the inventor of carrying out his invention."

That means full disclosure of the invention.

and

"§ 122. Confidential status of applications; publication of patent applications

(b) Publication.—
(1) In general.—
(A) Subject to paragraph (2), each application for a patent shall be published, in accordance with procedures determined by the Director, promptly after the expiration of a period of 18 months from the earliest filing date for which a benefit is sought under this title. At the request of the applicant, an application may be published earlier than the end of such 18-month period."

That means it is "published" by eighteen months after the "earliest effective filing date."

My point - you are seeing an industry that "off shores" r and d to Israel - and then complains because they can't get injunctions under Israeli law.

[drdon326]

3. Damn Coastie......I knew I should have gone to LAW school.

great post.....and I even understood... SOME of it.

[simcha_6]

4. Who cares?

Intellectual properties protection is what causes drug companies to monopolize and fix the prices of AIDS drugs in Africa. Screw them.

Do you hate Israel so much you'd rather have the drug companies do well? You're not a grassrooter or a populist, are you?

[newyorican]

5. I'm sorry...

Is there a cogent question in your post?

[simcha_6]

7. Cogent?

Maybe combative, I don't know. Sorry. I get ticked off when things like this come up about how horrible Israel is for doing things when the things they're doing aren't really bad. Thailand steals pharmaceuticals' patents too, which is how they got cheap AIDS drugs, but I haven't seen any posts condemning them for it. (Your's wasn't quite condemning but the first or second guy to answer your post was, and I figured your post wasn't in praises.)

[newyorican]

8. OK then...

you're argument is with the trade commission, not me.

Personally, most things that the Pharmaceutical companies object to, I am for. I am for re-importing cheap drugs. I am for all countries/concerned parties reverse engineering drugs when companies want to rake in obscene profits, so long as the intent is to provide inexpensive drugs. I draw the line when these reverse engineered drugs are used to rake in slightly less obscene profits from those that need them most and can afford them the least (Africa).

That being said, the above mentioned blacklisting mostly concerns drugs. There are other areas where this problem exists, such as Aerospace Avionics. I have witnessed this first-hand in my 20 some-odd years in the avionics and satellite industry. Here I am less forgiving, seeing designs duplicated and being sold to countries like China.

Mainly I posted this article as an adjunct to all of the boycotting articles, with their attendant legal threats of shareholder based action. Hence the only question I posed being one of comparing this blacklisting to a boycott.

[Coastie for Truth]

9. The problem is very serious in consumer and industrial electronics

Mostly with Taiwan and the PRC.

Mt experience (and your experience may differ) has been with "trusted employees" and "former employees" who just take "files" (Verilog, VHDL, Suprem, SPICE,mask works CAD/CAM, etc.). You can verify that a counterfeit product is your product if you include odd BIST circuits, and transistors that are connected as resistance - or just plain shorted out (direct gate to drain or source to drain) -- and when you buy something in Shanghai or Hong Kong, and run your BIST routine..... you know the story.

A little is local (US), a little in Israel, a little any place where you have "fabless fabs" or "foundries", a lot in the former Eastern Bloc, and out of control in East Asia,

We had a "trusted employee" walk out with a company assigned lap top, prototypes, samples, CAD/CAM files, etc., and apparently set himself up in business in East Asia. Several months later we had an OEM customer report problems with "our product" he had ordered through a jobber in Hong Kong. Only problem - it was counterfeit (a "vendored internal" did not come from our vendor).

Your problem with

"... There are other areas where this problem exists, such as Aerospace Avionics. I have witnessed this first-hand in my 20 some-odd years in the avionics and satellite industry. Here I am less forgiving, seeing designs duplicated and being sold to countries like China.'

sounds East Asian.

Let me add a note of caution. Much of my business is in technologies where IP is key. And, when I was doing and supervising "design" - a lot of my work was with a patent attorney over my shoulder - and we were doing "design arounds." There is nothing illegal about that. In fact, it is the constitutional basis of patents -- motivating non-infringing designs that are "just as good or better." And, if my engineers can do a "non-infringing product" that is just as good or better - then my engineers and patent attorneys are better then the competitors' and my team wins. That's business. It is legal, ethical, and contitutionally protected (patents are specifically provided for in the Contitution).

So, what is the cogency and relevance of your initial append, and this whole thread?

[newyorican]

10. Not Correct...

Your problem with


"... There are other areas where this problem exists, such as Aerospace Avionics. I have witnessed this first-hand in my 20 some-odd years in the avionics and satellite industry. Here I am less forgiving, seeing designs duplicated and being sold to countries like China.'

sounds East Asian.

The company that stole the designs is Israeli, and is still a customer of ours. All designs they could not duplicate they still buy from us. My company is locked in through a convoluted series of contracts to provide products to this company. Thank goodness these contracts expire this year. We will then consider ourselves free of this corporate legerdemain.

So, what is the cogency and relevance of your initial append, and this whole thread?

See last paragraph of my #8.

[Coastie for Truth]

11. Exactly the same problem I had with a Major US Consumer Durables Co

<>

as to key components.

[Coastie for Truth]

12. Domo Arigatoo Gozaimus Scam

You posted:

"The company that stole the designs is Israeli, and is still a customer of ours. All designs they could not duplicate they still buy from us. My company is locked in through a convoluted series of contracts to provide products to this company.

Welcome to the "Big Business USA Club" - Your employer has been ripped off by the DOMO ARIGATOO GOZAIMUS scam.

This scam has been around since the 1960's - worked with cars, steel, appliances, consumer electronics, software, etc. The Brits and French learned how to do it with commercial aircraft. The Israelis do it. The Romanians do it ("I can get you Windows XP Pro and Office 2005 - cheap"). The Chinese do it. Everybody does it to the US.

Your description is a classic example of the most basic DOMO ARIGATOO GOZAIMUS scam -- "The company that stole the designs ... is still a customer of ours. All designs they could not duplicate they still buy from us. My company is locked in through a convoluted series of contracts to provide products to this company."

DOMO ARIGATOO GOZAIMUS

Watch Lou Dobbs.

Read Thomas Friedman's "The World Is Flat: A Brief History of the Twenty-first Century"

DOMO ARIGATOO GOZAIMUS

[Coastie for Truth]

31. OK for PRC to steal, but not for Israel to out-lawyer your lawyers

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/columnists/11559326.htm|In technology race, China has powerful strategy, San Jose Mercury News, May 4, 2005> by Miguel Helft

"They graduate four times as many engineers as we do.

They lavish generous tax breaks on tech firms.

They support local manufacturers.

They don't respect intellectual property.

They, of course, refers to China. And the gripes from Silicon Valley business leaders capture in stark and accurate terms the key underpinnings of the growing tech rivalry between the United States and China.

...<snip>...



China's willingness to skirt international law has helped that evolution. The country's tech firms are known to steal intellectual property, often with the government's tacit approval. Officials use trade barriers, from illegal subsidies to artificial standards, to protect domestic manufacturers. They exclude foreign firms from some state contracts and force others to partner with Chinese companies.

<snip>

Helft notes that this is the main reason that China's tech revolution went from zero to 60 in record time. And he observes that China still has its foot planted firmly on the gas pedal.

[DemFromMem]

13. Why is the post here anyway?

Is the point just to post anything that shows Israel in a bad light even if it has nothing to do with relations with the Palestians? It would be about as relevant as telling me that Palestians have a high rate of alcoholism (not that they do, but, why would I care if they did)?

I thought the point of this forum was to discuss the peace process. I know it is too much to hope that people focus on posting constructive comments and treating each side with respect. But I assumed the posts should actually have some relevance to the peace process.

[Violet_Crumble]

14. If you'd read the thread, you'd have seen the reason why...

And if you'd read the threads over the past few days regarding boycotts, you wouldn't even need to have read the posts in this thread to grasp why the article was posted...

As Newyorican said in an earlier post:

'Mainly I posted this article as an adjunct to all of the boycotting articles, with their attendant legal threats of shareholder based action. Hence the only question I posed being one of comparing this blacklisting to a boycott.'

As for focusing on posting constructive comments and treating each side with respect, no-one's stopping you from doing so. btw, it's interesting that you latch onto this thread as not being about the 'peace process', while not commenting on the virtual deluge of articles that aren't about the 'peace process' that are posted by one particular 'pro-Israeli' poster on a daily basis...

Violet...

[DemFromMem]

19. OK

I was careful to point out that there are people on both sides who do this. I've seen posts that are just plain anti-Palestinian even though they have nothing to do with Israeli security concerns. The "gee, these people are just uncivilized so why respect anything they have to say" variety. Those are unfair and unhelpful and amount to propaganda. And I still put this thread in that same category.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. We'll have to agree to disagree about this thread...

With the academic boycott getting so much attention in the forum over the past week or so, I think that this one's related to that. Mind you, I've been here long enough to have seen heaps of articles posted with the intent of painting one 'side' or the other in an incredibly negative light: eg, portraying all Palestinians as honour-killing religious extremists, and Israel as being the only country in the world that suffers from things like human trafficking or prostitution. When those articles start to get posted with too much regularity, I just stick the person responsible for the pollution on ignore as it's doubtful they'll ever have anything worth reading to say....

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

15. Just curious, but when you say peace process...

What exactly is this peace process? Are you talking about the unilateral disengagement plan or the roadmap?

Violet...

[Coastie for Truth]

38. The pharmaceutical industry is very well entrenched in Washington

1. Hatch-Waxman Bill - which the basis of this whole thread.
2. Patent Term Extension
3. Provisional Patent Applications
4.
5. The Doughnut Hole in the Medicare Prescription Benefit Law
6. The FDA's attempt, last year, to have FDA lawyers defend drug companies in product liability suits.

I fail to see how this is some Israeli Cabal - or how opposing it strikes a blow for Palestinian rights.

[Coastie for Truth]

6. The really cogent points

1. US drug company subsidiaries of huge multi-national drug companies want to stop the Israeli subsidiaries of other US company subsidiaries of equally huge multi-national drug companies from getting a "head start" on generics under Hatch-Waxman.

2. The same cast of characters want to stop "reimporting" drugs to the US through Canada.

I am in the technology business. This game is pretty much a pharmaceutical game - not a software or energy or IT game, and I fail to see how the absence of injunctions for infringing Israeli drug patents or other lawyer games between Israeli subsidiaries of two multi-national drug companies (that also have US subsidiaries) to protect their respective US markets have any relevance to the "Israeli/Palestinian Affairs" topic of the DU "Politics and Issues Forum."

This is more about the "hidden costs" of "off shoring" pharmaceutical research and pharmaceutical manufacturing (remember Chiron's flu vaccine manufacturing in Liverpool; remember that Lipitor was invented in Japan, and Lasik surgery was invented in Russia and Canada) and does not have any relevance that I can see to the "Israeli/Palestinian Affairs" topic of the DU "Politics and Issues Forum."

But, I am sure with digging a link can be found.

[Lithos]

16. Some differences

1) The standards and processes concerning those standards are open and applied generally consistently. Notice the other countries here which are included:

Indonesia, Argentina, Brazil, India, Venezuela, Turkey, Kuwait, Lebanon, Egypt, China, the Philippines, Russia, and Pakistan.

The academic boycott that is applied against Israel curiously does not include other countries who have equal, if not worse, records including China, Sudan, Russia, Pakistan, Burma, etc. and was only approached for one country rather than setting standards and seeing which ones fail then acting accordingly.

2) The blacklist does not necessarily mean a cessation, but rather involves greater scrutiny of existing transfer in some cases.

[drdon326]

17. My opinion

The academic boycott that is applied against Israel curiously does not include other countries who have equal, if not worse, records including China, Sudan, Russia, Pakistan, Burma, etc. and was only approached for one country rather than setting standards and seeing which ones fail then acting accordingly.


IOW, BLATENT DOUBLE STANDARD AND HYPOCRISY BORDERING IF NOT FULL BLOWN ANTI-SEMITISM, imho.

[Lithos]

18. May not be anti-semitism

Though I will not categorically state there aren't anti-Semites or anti-Muslims in the mix.

But to me this could easily be a case of a lack of curiosity. You also have to realize that the I/P situation is discussed to a fair amount of detail in the British Press. There are specific human faces attached and in turn people as a result have formed an opinion one way or the other. People identify with individuals, not groups and base their opinions accordingly.

On the other hand, they know frightfully little about China or Russia. The greatest outrage with China has never been over the reports of thousands being killed to harvest organs, or the brutal killings in Tibet, but over such things as the picture in Tianamen square of the sole protestor in front of the line of Tanks. Mandela, Tutu and a few others became the individuals who people focused on when dealing with South Africa.

How about Sierra Leone? Nigeria? Chechnya? Kuwait? Forgotten because we don't identify with any individuals there.

That is one reason why the US is so keen on controlling the Press as much as they have in Iraq and Afghanistan. Mostly to keep this from turning into pictures of individuals.

On Edit:

You can also include graphic singular events such as the World Trade Center which can also be identified with. Others include The Alamo, Pearl Harbor, Lusitania, USS Maine, etc.

[bemildred]

20. There may be a sense that this might have some effect on Israel,

whereas with China, Russia, etc. it would approximate pounding sand.

Edit: so, in a way, it could be considered a compliment.

[drdon326]

22. Hey Lithos......

if it walks like a duck ,quacks like a duck and has feathers like a duck, its a duck. period.

[Lithos]

23. No, I don't think so

Anti-Semitism requires the assumption that they are basing things along religious grounds. I've heard no proof anywhere saying this was a factor for the majority voting on this.

L-

[Coastie for Truth]

25. You are right in a philosophic sense

but in an EEOC or HR Manager or Union Shop Steward sense, I think DrDon is right.

In an analogous issue, Boycott Watch, has said that the university investment funds divestiture campaigns probably violate the US Anti-boycott laws (Export Administration Act ("EAA"), and Tax Reform Act ("TRA") of 1976). Since the boycott we are talking about here (British AUT) is British, and US law does not apply to the AUT, Boycott Watch has not opined on the AUT boycott.

Boycott Watch is not some Zionist front. Their real job is to trace down boycotts of the "Starbucks doesn't support our troops" or "Procter and Gamble has satanic images in its ads" variety.

[Lithos]

27. Actually it is supported by EEOC

And I almost used that as an example.

If you base your decision to let people go on seniority or salary and not age, then you're not discriminating by age even if the net effect is that older people who are considered an otherwise protected class bear the brunt of the layoff.

It's all about what parameters were used to reach the decision.

L-

[eyl]

29. You're correct that

an action is not necessarily discriminatory if it targets a specific group, if that group happens to predominate the group being acted against for a different reason (legitimate or not). However, when a group within that sector is targeted, it does become discrimination.

To use your example, imagine that a company decided to lay off all employees above a certain seniority. In practise, however, they only lay off black high-seniority employees, even though they form a minority of that section of the company's employees with high seniority. Would you agree there is at least the suspicion of racial bias in that case?

[Lithos]

30. Answer

To use your example, imagine that a company decided to lay off all employees above a certain seniority. In practise, however, they only lay off black high-seniority employees, even though they form a minority of that section of the company's employees with high seniority. Would you agree there is at least the suspicion of racial bias in that case?

Depends... if all of the high-seniority black people were in Marketing and you can say with some gravitas that marketing's top group needed to be replaced or reduced due to issues and that the evaluation was done in a way which did not favor an unprotected class over a protected class, then it is not discriminatory.

Usually, though in the situation you described, the evaluation was done in a way which varied from situation to situation and would be discriminatory.

However, I disagree that your analogy is appropriate for this situation.

A better analogy would be one of, if someone chooses to avoid eating at the only Mexican restaurant in town (run by the only Hispanic restauranteur family), does it mean they are discriminating against Hispanics? What they don't go because they learned the family treats the staff poorly?

What if they go to another restaurant in another town that does the same thing, though they are not aware of it? Does that make them a hypocrite?

As, I stated fairly early on I am against them as I feel they are counter-productive. However, I also think that for the majority who did vote on the matter, they did so because they felt there were injustices against the Palestinians and that the boycott they were voting on would somehow make a difference to address this (again I think it won't). I don't think the fact that the affected Universities were predominantly Jewish was an issue in the thinking for the majority.

[eyl]

32. Again, it's not neccessarily

discrimination just because you don't go to the only Mexican restaurant in town. But if you do so on the grounds they treat their employees unfairly, yet do not avoid any other restaurant in town, including those which treat their employees in a much harsher fashion, then yes, it seems you're employing bias; especially when those restaurants' treatment of their employees is well-known.

[Lithos]

33. Yes

Though all of this requires knowledge. The comment about being "well-known". Being well-known does not equate to being the worst.

Remember, the I/P situation is front and center in the UK and Europe while places like China are not. So, while China may be much worse, the top of mind issue is still I/P. This goes back to my notion of not being curious.

If you like, it's the squeaky wheel syndrome. China may have more fundamental and systemic flaws, but the noise created is much quieter.

[eyl]

34. Maybe

However, while the I/P situation has a disproportionate amount of media attention, it's not the only situation being reported in the press. I don't really expect them to go down a list of offenders in order of seriousness, but are you seriously suggesting that the AUT delegates are so insular, so tunnel-blind (and if so, why are they so tunnel blind), that the only situation of human rights abuse* meriting boycott - or even their attention - they're aware of is in Israel? Also, not that their approach is discriminatory even within the I/P conflict; I can put forth much better reasons to boycott, say, al-Najah University than anything they advanced against Haifa, BIU, or the Hebrew University, yet their decision was to strengthen ties with Palestinian academics while boycotting the Israeli ones!

*Note, I'm not arguing at the moment the merits of their claims; my point would hold even if they were all true, and they justified a boycott.

[Coastie for Truth]

35. King Fahd University? Why no boycott?

is a truly world class engineering school. It is truly the MIT or Technion or Bangalore of the Arab World.

Yet King Fahd has no Israeli (or even Jewish non-Israeli) students, adjunct faculty, faculty, visiting faculty, or even seminar/colloquium/conference participants.

Why no boycott?

[Lithos]

36. Because it is not top of mind

If Saudi Arabia were to receive the same attention as Israel, then I think you would see more calls for that.

You see very little discussion of Saudi Arabia because people know very little about the place.

L-

[Coastie for Truth]

37. "Out of Sight - Out of Mind"

Plus - they own the oil. Plus "Recycling Petrodollars"

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

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[Coastie for Truth]

21. Would some one please tell me

How is adding to Smith Kline's or Astra-Zeneca's bottom line by protecting their patent position - from attacks by those evil Israeli (and Indian and Romanian) generic drug makers and those equally evil Canadian Internet Pharmacists - for a few more months going to help the Palestinians?

Sheeple, sheeple, sheeple -- this whole ITC/WIPO tempest in a teapot is brought to you by the same Mafioso who are fighting to keep generic drugs off the market and to keep "Canadian" drugs out of the US.

Sheeple, sheeple, sheeple -- this whole ITC/WIPO tempest in a teapot is brought to you by the same Mafioso who defeated Harris Wofford (strongest Senate backer of Hillary's Health Plan) and gave us Rickie Santorum.

Sheeple, sheeple, sheeple -- this whole ITC/WIPO tempest in a teapot is brought to you by the same Mafioso who brought us the "Harry and Louise" infomercials.

Sheeple, sheeple, sheeple -- this whole ITC/WIPO tempest in a teapot is brought to you by the same Mafioso who brought us the "doughnut whole" in the Medicare drug bill.

Sheeple, sheeple, sheeple -- this whole ITC/WIPO tempest in a teapot is brought to you by the same Mafioso who are keeping drug prices exorbitant in the third word.

Sheeple, sheeple, sheeple -- Israel is just a convenient target for this attack by the drug companies -- India and China are the real targets. This is the warm up.

Sheeple, sheeple, sheeple -- You are once again proving that Thomas Frank, "What's the Matter with Kansas? How Conservatives Won the Heart of America" was right - and even intelligent, educated, progressives are gullible when the mafioso (here big Pharma) packages it right.

"WIPO" =
"ITC" =