Jewish man arrested over arson at Paris Jewish centre

[DenverDem]

FYI

<http://sg.news.yahoo.com/040830/1/3msgs.html>

reposted in compliance with posting rules.

Refer to:<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=77071&mesg_id=77071>

[babylon_system]

1. He must be anti-semitic

Or mentally ill.
Or trying to incite persecution of Muslims.
Or a fan of Ariel Sharon's trying to encourage French Jews' emigration to Israel.
Or all of the above.

[DenverDem]

2. Just mentally ill, actually.

But not Muslim, at any rate.

[babylon_system]

3. The old double-standard. If he was Muslim, it would be terrorism

If he's Jewish, he's just mentally ill.

[Name removed]

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[Nadav]

6. Why don't you try to answer the same question

Please explain why this group took credit


The statement posted on the Internet in the name of the Jamaat Ansaw Al-Jihad al Islamiya (Group of the Holy Islamic War Supporters) said the attack was "in response to racist acts by Jews in France against Islam and the Muslims" and "as a simple response to the racist and savage acts by Jews in Muslim countries like Palestine."

[babylon_system]

8. Have you never heard of the Duvdevan?

How hard would it be for Israeli intelligence service operatives to pretend to be an Islamist group and take credit for crimes committed by "mentally ill" Jews to incite anti-Muslim hysteria?

[Nadav]

14. You really believe this?

n/t/n

[Name removed]

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[Djinn]

54. I have no idea who Jamaat Ansaw Al-Jihad al Islamiya

but they don't seem to have existed before this attack.

[papau]

10. Mentally ill, homeless, fired from job - and an Islamist group took credit

There are so many ways to take this -

but in the end, does it matter?

An Islamist group cheers as a building burns.

and that proves something we did not already know?

A mentally ill homeless person with a grudge against the building owner sets a fire.

and that proves something we did not already know?

Does anyone think all Arabs want to kill Jews - or that all Jews - or even just the Mossad - are into killing Jews so as to blame Arabs?

[babylon_system]

15. Reminds me of the Lavon Affair

Israel has a long sordid history of this type of deception.
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Lavon%20Affair

[papau]

17. The Lavon affair was 1954 by a rogue Mossad intelligence unit

..." not backed by civilian Israeli leadership of that time. The operation, which was commenced in an amateurish fashion ... would have worked, had not one of the bombs detonated prematurely, allowing the Egyptians to capture and identify one of the bombers, which in turn led to the round up of an Israeli spy ring. Some of the spies were from Israel, while others were recruited from the local Jewish population in Egypt.

The capture of the agents caused outrage among Egyptian authorities. However, there was also great concern among the Israeli public and lead to Israel's first major political scandal.

[babylon_system]

18. "Rogue Mossad operation" like the Pollard scandal?

I guess it becomes a rogue operation when it fails or is exposed.

[papau]

22. Pollard is admitted to by the civilian Israeli Gov - it was not "rogue"

and is not claimed as "rogue"


God only know if in 1954 it was actually rogue - but the Israeli public were outraged over what these Mossad folks had done - and the civilian gov paid a price,

The Pollard affair was not an embarrassment to Israel - we all understood it was in responce to rogue Pentagon/State folks trying to screw Israel (although the US is still "outrage over very sensitive data passed on and wiil not release Pollard")

[babylon_system]

23. Mossad spying and assassination conspiracies are offensive to all

except, apparently, to Israelis.

http://www.upi.com/print.cfm?StoryID=20030115-035849-6156r

Israel to kill in U.S., allied nations
By Richard Sale
UPI Intelligence Correspondent
Published 1/15/2003 7:14 PM

Israel is embarking upon a more aggressive approach to the war on terror that will include staging targeted killings in the United States and other friendly countries, former Israeli intelligence officials told United Press International.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has forbidden the practice until now, these sources said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

The Israeli statements were confirmed by more than a half dozen former and currently serving U.S. foreign policy and intelligence officials in interviews with United Press International.

[Djinn]

57. I wouldn't expect much from my government

but any government that allows foreign forces/operatives on their soil to kill people (citizens of otherwise) and to get back on a plane to the motherland is not wotrhy of being called democratic.

[babylon_system]

25. Was the murder of Ahmad Bouchikhi a "rogue" operation?

In 1973, Mossad murdered Ahmad Bouchikhi, an innocent Arab waiter in Lillehammer, Norway. Was that a "rogue" operation or just a business as usual of the Mossad?

What about the kidnapping of Mordechai Vanunu?

What about the Mossad agents captured in Jordan after trying to assassinate Sheikh Khaled Mashal by injecting him with poison? Was that a "rogue operation"?

How about the Israelis caught trying to defraud the New Zealand government last month by applying for a passport in tghe name of a handicapped man? What were their intentions? Another "rogue" operation, no doubt.

Yes, it is not hard to believe that the Mossad is capable of any crime, even against Jews, even against innocent Muslims, even against neutral governments. Israel and Zionism continue to do a great disservice to the reputation of decent people who follow the great world religion of Judaism, don't you think?

[papau]

28. A little detaill for those folks that are not up to speed on Mossad "evil"

Mordechai Vanunu was snatched in Rome and transported to Israel after revealing details of Israel's nuclear weapons program. He was tried, found guilty, and recently released but under a form of house arrest/paroll.

July 21, 1973, when a Mossad team shot dead Moroccan waiter Ahmed Bouchikhi as he walked home from the cinema with his pregnant wife in the Norwegian ski resort of Lillehammer because they mistook Bouchikhi for Hassan Salameh, a PLO intelligence chief suspected of masterminding the killing of 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics. "sorry" - never enough - was said, and money damages paid by Israel - but again never enough, in my opinion.

As to killing terrorists on American soil when our laws prevent such instant justice - the UPI story is out there - but unconfirmed by eith US or Israeli governments.

"State Department Briefing covering the Israeli assassinations story

QUESTION: UPI has a story that says Israel is mounting a major assassination program abroad. They've been notably unsuccessful on occasion in four or five countries. My question is: What is the U.S. view of Israel suddenly deciding to increase the funding for Mossad just for this purpose? The story had very good sources, both here and in Israel. And I'm wondering --

MR. BOUCHER: I'm not going to evaluate the story. I'm not going to evaluate the sources. I'm not going to evaluate the intentions of the Israelis.

QUESTION: Do you agree with their decision, though? And possibly --

MR. BOUCHER: What decision? Go ask the Israelis. If they tell you what they've decided to do, I will comment then.

QUESTION: If I might, Richard. The story actually indicates that Israel is prepared to undertake targeted killings in the United States and quotes U.S. officials as being aware of this policy.

MR. BOUCHER: Again, I'm not going to try to react to a whole bunch of anonymous sources in a speculative article.

QUESTION: Well, could you say whether the U.S. would be prepared to allow Israel to undertake targeted killings of potential terrorists in the United States?

MR. BOUCHER: If you show me something where the Israeli Government says that they are going to undertake targeted killings of terrorists in the United States, I will react at that time. I think our views on targeted killings in the region is well known. It has not changed. Our views of the importance of everybody in this country respecting U.S. law is very clear and well known. And I'm not going to try to speculate on something that anonymous sources of that kind have put in the press."

[Scurrilous]

29. "As always, should you or any of your force be caught or killed...

... the secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions. This tape will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim."

[DenverDem]

11. Because the group doesn't exist?

Who benefits from the propaganda?

That's the question to answer.

[Name removed]

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[Nadav]

16. Answer this one too

A person who knowlingly has a bomb wrapped around his body, hopefully expects to kill and maim as many people as possible and then expects to be received in heaven by 72 virgins is no doubt mentally deranged.

What word would you use to label his or her enablers and brainwashers?

This time I refuse to buy the secret Israeli plot theory but feel free to use it if that is what you believe.

[babylon_system]

21. I would use "freedom fighter," the same word you would use

if you were objective.
They are patriots, resistance fighters, underground militiamen, guerillas, partisans, etc

http://www.yad-vashem.org.il/about_yad/magazine/magazine_new/jewish_resistance.html

Just like the European Jewish resistance fighters who opposed a different oppressive racist regime.

[Nadav]

24. NO

I would call them TERRORISTS. They might be called fighters or militiamen if they fought themselves. Ask some of the Palestinian mothers and fathers who wept over their dead child and see if they agree with you. Your secret Israeli plot was better.

[Name removed]

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[Nadav]

27. I'm not surprised by your answer

Tell me something, how far up would you jump if I said Palestinians are all terrorists?

That's how obnoxious that post was.

[babylon_system]

33. Palestinians are the indigenous continuous residents of the Holy Land

The Palestinians have been living in the region continuously for 100s and even 1000s of years. They are the victims of Zionism. It is hardly valid to compare the Palestinian victims defending their land and lives against their oppressors, 20th century neo-colonial European and American Jew invaders drunk with religious nationalism and bent on imperialist ethnic cleansing against non-Jews. But its; no surprise that Zionists would try to make morally equivalent comparisons between legitimate Palestinian resistance to invasion and occupation with their own campaign of Zionist terror.

[Darranar]

38. How is murdering non-combatants "legitimate"?

That is illegal according to international law, by any reasonable interpretation.

[Name removed]

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[Darranar]

47. No, that doesn't follow...

American civilians in Iraq are not at all legitimate targets, nor are Israeli civilians in Israel (or in the Occupied Territories). Just because the action that caused that territory to be occupied was illegal (which it was in the former case, questionable in the latter case) doesn't mean that those who went from the occupying nation to the occupied territory are legitimate targets.

Combatants are those who engage in a violent conflict. Israeli soldiers and American soldiers both qualify; they are legitimate targets of Palestinian and Iraqi resistance, respectively. Civilians, on the other hand, qualify in neither case. Retaliation is no excuse for atrocities; if the US had, say, razed Kabul and slaughtered its inhabitants in the aftermath of September 11th, would that have been a heroic act defending our freedom?

As for "what would the US do?", we have been given a good idea of what it would do: slaughter thousands of innocent people, sow the seeds of more terrorism, and all in all accomplish little while killing many. Pretty much what Israel has done, and what many of the Palestinians probably would do if they had the ability. Since I am opposed to US actions, and also to Israeli and Palestinian actions, that argument fails to justify anything.

[babylon_system]

51. You seem unable to differentiate between the invader and the invaded

It makes a big difference if you are a Palestinian, Afghan or Iraqi minding your own business in your own country or if you are an American invading Iraq or Afghanistan or a Euro-American Jew invading and colonizing Palestine. Invasion is an offensive act, illegal under international law. Defending yourself against invasion is an inherent human right. Don't try to equate the two, there is no moral equivalence between the Palestinian defending his land and the neo-colonial Zionist invading it.
\Good night

[Darranar]

53. Being invaded is not an excuse for atrocities...

atrocities are atrocities, regardless of what happened formerly to the person or people committing them. Murdering innocent people is simply wrong.

[Darranar]

31. Do you consider Americans to be terrorists?

For occupying land stolen from the Native Americans and enforcing their theft with a systematic and violent campaign of ethnic cleansing?

Not to mention the countless other crimes committed by the US government....

[babylon_system]

34. The crimes against Native Americans were terrorism

Slavery was a form of terrorism. Americans wars against Filipinos, Central Americans, SE Asians, Afghans, Iranians and Arabs are imperialist terror campaigns. Support for Israeli atrocities against Palestinians is terrorism by proxy.

Not all Americans are complicit in these crimes.

[Darranar]

37. Yes, it was and they were...

but why are Americans any less complicit in those crimes than Israelis are in those of their government? Frankly, I don't think either group is complicit in the state terrorism of their governments. Participation is far more important than support.

[babylon_system]

41. Naturei Karta and other anti-Zionist Israelis do not particpate

Otherwise, all Israelis are particpating.

[Darranar]

43. How so?

Zionism and the typical policies of the Zionist leadership are different things by the way. One is justifiable, the other has a long record of atrocities and repression that are not at all justifiable.

[Name removed]

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[Darranar]

49. I don't think there's any religious discrimination inherent in Zionism...

a state with a Jewish majority (which is what Zionism calls for, rightly or wrongly) does not imply religious discrimination any more than a state with a Muslim majority, or a Christian majority.

[babylon_system]

50. A Jewish majority state in Palestine requires discrimination

It seems like you are trying to separate the ideology of Zionism from its practice and implementation. Why? It's as if you were raised to believe that Zionism was a pure and noble ideal and then you learned the reality and now you are trying to synthesize these two dissonant realities in your mind. Zionism calls for the creation of a jewish state. It is a colonial era ideology of religous nationalism. If there were no non-Jews indigenous to the land, a Zionist state theoretically could be created without discrimination. Because Zionists demanded palestine, there was no way to accomplish the vision of a Jewish state without excluding non-Jews. The reality is that Israel was established through decades of terrorism, war, mass arrests, torture, ethnic cleansing. Discrimination is a weak word for what is really happening in the Jewish state.
Palestinian Muslims and Christians are systematically excluded and oppressed. You do realize that the Arab-Israeli conflict arises from the creation of a Zionist state in Palestine, don't you?

It must be nice to imagine the jewish state as a pure and noble enterprise. Walk a mile in Palestinian shoes and get back to me.......

[Darranar]

52. Because the way it has been practiced...

isn't necessarily the only way it could be practiced.

A Jewish state doesn't require an exclusively Jewish population, simply a majority. This perhaps could have been achieved through immigration and without ethnic cleansing, though likely it would have involved disagreements with the indigenous population.

Zionism is more troublesome to me morally than many other nationalist ideologies, because rather than independence in a particular region where the group is a majority, it advocates a transfer of the Jewish population to somewhere where it can have a majority. But there is nothing inherently discriminatory or atrocious in that concept. The discrimination and atrocities come in its implementation, and I do not think the evidence is sufficient to state that it would always occur in its implementation (which would indeed make it inherent).

[Djinn]

59. no it calls for a Jewish state

An "X religion" state is not the same thing as a state with an "X religion" majority.

Australia has a Christian (nominally anyway - we buy Christmas presents) majority - Saudi is a Muslim state. The difference is not just semantic

[Darranar]

60. Well, then there is the issue of what exactly is a Jewish state...

the main reason Zionism became a major ideology was because it offered a way to escape anti-semitism through a state where Jews would be a majority and persecution of them would be an impossibility for that reason. A democratic and completely secular state with a Jewish majority would probably suffice, because the Jewish majority would not support parties and candidates who advocated anti-semitism and the persecution of Jews.

[Djinn]

61. unfortunately it was imposed on an area that HADN'T had

a Jewish majority for over a thousand years, hence one of the reasons why many Jews and others thought it was a bad idea.

[Darranar]

30. So, do you think they are murderers? n/t

[babylon_system]

32. Were Samuel Schwartzbard, Herschel Grynzspan, David Frankfurter murderers?

Same category.

http://www.booksamillion.com/ncom/books?id=2305625147323&pid=0879759259

Violent Justice
How Three Assassins Fought to Free Europe's Jews
(Hardcover)
by Felix Imonti; Miyoko Imonti

ISBN: 0879759259 / Publisher: Prometheus Books / Date: Nov 1994 / Page Count: 300

The history of Europe's Jews is one of oppression and violent persecution. As vulnerable minority communities in the midst of suspicious, resentful, or hostile peoples, Jews developed the prevailing attitude that in their own defense the only recourse was to negotiate with those who threatened them. But occasionally this long-suffering spirit broke down, and isolated individuals lashed out in sudden violent eruptions against those who would persecute them. Violent Justice tells the stories of three such lone Jewish activists, who at different times and different places refused to be victims any longer and by political assassination sought to gain world attention to the plight of their people. In 1926, Samuel Schwartzbard, soldier and revolutionary, gunned down Simon Petliura, the leader of independent Ukraine, for helping to kill thousands of Jews. In 1936, Yugoslav David Frankfurter shot Wilhelm Gustloff, a Nazi leader in Switzerland, to short-circuit the growth of Nazi sympathizers. And in 1938, German-born Herschel Grynszpan killed Ernst vom Rath, a German diplomat, to avenge the deaths of Polish Jews.

[Lithos]

35. Three people do not a movement make

And this conveniently overlooks the many non-Jewish Germans prior to 1938 and non-Germans afterwards who tried to stem the tide using sometimes violent means. Witness the bombing of the Putsch Beer Hall...

L-

[babylon_system]

40. There was a definite Jewish resistance movement againstthe Nazis

It was a noble, desperate and futile attempt by European Jews to resist the racist Nazi oppression.

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/pages/rr.html

http://www.yad-vashem.org.il/about_yad/magazine/magazine_new/jewish_resistance.html

I point to it because it exemplifies the double standard of those who praise Jewish partisans but vilify the Palestinian resistance. They are basically equivalent; civilians under occupation resisting powerful racist and oppressive regimes.

This doesn't mean that there weren't many other (non-Jewish) civilian paramilitary/partisan/guerilla movements against the Nazis.

[Darranar]

42. Well...

the question is what kind of resistance.

Targeting non-combatants in Israel - as most suicide bombings do - is disgusting, illegal, and atrocious.

[babylon_system]

46. I'm sure you are as outraged when Israelis target Palestinian civilians

with weapons supplied by your tax dollars.

[Darranar]

48. I am...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=69871#69884

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=69871#69878

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=70420#70438

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=70452#70878

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

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[Vladimir]

36. Depends on the target

if its a military one, or a domestic collaborator, then whether by assasination or open assault I agree. Whether such actions are wise is a different matter - they are entitled to use them. Collateral damage is of course often inevitable, as always in a war. But I have little sympathy for those who blow up restaurants, buses and otherwise clearly civilian targets.

[Djinn]

58. I'd call them terrorists

it's not a word I use much because it's lost almost all meaning but the above action would fit the definition - so would Israeli actions when they send missiles into civilian buildings, fire on protests and demolish houses, there is nothing to say that states can ot be guilty of terrorism.

BTW - I would also describe people who have fought for reasons and with methods I agree with as terrorists

[Gimel]

5. He was angry

about losing his job. Can't blame him. Of course he went over the top in attacking the center. However, as it stands, he is accused but hasn't been tried yet. It may turn out that he is innocent.

[DenverDem]

12. Innocent until proven guilty, an honorable concept.

Too bad that Muslim bashing ensued immediately when this crime was first reported.

[Gimel]

13. You May Have Noticed

That while the police said the symbols were anti-Semitic, there were some of us who avoided accusing any Muslim. The Islamic group (previously unknown) did make a claim. That was the most obvious connection. However, there was some question about that group as it had not been known to make attacks before.

There is something malicious about making a claim for such a crime against a center which served the poor and elderly. It certainly is in poor taste. Perhaps the Islamic group is mentally ill.

[Djinn]

55. would you look into a bit more though

if an attack on a mosque (for example) was then "claimed" by a radical Jewish group that no-one had ever heard of before?

There is NO proof this group even exists Gimel

[Gimel]

56. I pointed this out

I withheld judgment also. I usually do until there is an actual conviction.

[shadu]

9. 'Looks like the French press is anti-Semitic!!!!!!!'

There, I beat someone to the punch.
'Furthermore,' they will say, 'the presence of mere factual
guilt does nothing to extenuate the clearly anti-Semitic sentiment
of the French press!'

[Gimel]

20. How so?

Because they showed the swasticas in the news?