Does oppression cause suicide bombing? (Dershowitz)

[JohnLocke]

Does oppression cause suicide bombing?
By Alan M. Dershowitz -- Jerusalem Post
Saturday, May 22, 2004
----
Some overprivileged Muslims support a culture of death, while impoverished Tibetans celebrate life
As suicide bombings increase in Iraq, in Saudi Arabia, and in Israel, more and more people have come to believe that this tactic is a result of desperation. They see a direct link between oppression, occupation, poverty, and humiliation on the one hand, and a willingness to blow oneself up for the cause on the other hand. It follows from this premise that the obvious remedy for suicide bombing is to address its root cause - namely, our oppression of the terrorists.
But the underlying premise is demonstrably false: There is no such link as a matter of fact or history. Suicide bombing is a tactic that is selected by privileged, educated, and wealthy elitists because it has proven successful.
(...)
Majid al-Enezi, a Saudi student training to become a computer technician, recently changed career plans and decided to become a martyr; he crossed over into Iraq, where he died. His brother Abdullah celebrated that decision. "People are calling all the time to congratulate us, crying from happiness and envy. There are many young men who wish they could cross over into Iraq, but they can't. Thank God he was able to."
(...)
Why have other oppressed people throughout history not resorted to suicide bombings and terrorism? The answer lies in differences among the elite leadership of various groups and causes. The leaders of Islamic radical causes, especially the Wahhabis, advocate and incite suicide terrorism, while the leaders of other causes advocate different means.
Recall Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr., whose people were truly oppressed but who advocated non-violent means of resistance. It is the leaders who send suicide bombers to blow themselves up. No suicide bomber ever sent himself to be blown up.
The bombers accept death because they have been incited into a frenzy of hatred by imams preaching "Kill the infidels." Sheikh Muhammad Sayed Tantawi, the leading Islamic scholar at the elite Al-Azhar University in Cairo (which is not occupied), has declared that martyrdom operations - which means suicide bombings - are the highest form of jihad and an Islamic commandment.
Even more mainstream role models, such as Yasser Arafat's wife, who lives in a multimillion-dollar residence in Paris, has said that if she had a son, she would want him to become a suicide bomber because there is no greater honor than to become a martyr.
(...)
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The writer is a professor of law at Harvard. His latest book is The Case for Israel.
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Read the rest here (free regisration required).

[drdon326]

1. Great article.

"The leaders of Islamic radical causes, especially the Wahhabis, advocate and incite suicide terrorism, while the leaders of other causes advocate different means.
Recall Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr., whose people were truly oppressed but who advocated non-violent means of resistance. It is the leaders who send suicide bombers to blow themselves up. No suicide bomber ever sent himself to be blown up.
The bombers accept death because they have been incited into a frenzy of hatred by imams preaching "Kill the infidels." Sheikh Muhammad Sayed Tantawi, the leading Islamic scholar at the elite Al-Azhar University in Cairo (which is not occupied), has declared that martyrdom operations - which means suicide bombings - are the highest form of jihad and an Islamic commandment."

so sad....so true.

[Classical_Liberal]

2. Dersh thinks suicide bombings make him kill Palestinian Children

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=69679&mesg_id=69679

The 9/11 hijackers and Al Qaeda are often the Arab worlds rich and religously deluded. This much is true. It isn't true for Palestinians. The Palestinians are also not capable of doing anything as spectacularly disasterous as 9/11.

The fact that lead poisening causes death, doesn't mean that cancer doesn't cause death. This is faulty reasoning. As for Gandhi and MLK, there was lots of terrorism and ethnic warfare in India despite Gandhi's advocacy for passive resistence, and some black groups rioted, and committed terrorist acts. Dershowitz's comments are ahistorical.

Passive resistence only works where you have a free press. I think there was more free speech and better reporting in colonial india and in the 60s during the civil rights movement than there is in modern Israel and that is definately fueling the violence. Passive resistence doesn't really work where you have censorship conditions. Israel kicks out reporters that are unsympathetic to its cause. Look how Israel has treated the bbc. There is also a lot of censorship in the corporate media. Alot of the corporations that own the media also own defense contractors.

[Trajan]

3. Lack of modern military technology leads to desparate use of ANY weapon ..

that is available ....

Im still not sure: is it better to kill innocent civilians with bombs strapped around a human being or with bombs strapped around a small rocket ? ...

Vive le difference !

[Gimel]

4. Like it's history

A true culture should strengthen the morals and resistance of people to destructive impulses, like killing. Even in starvation and hardship, millions of persons throughout the world don't kill their neighbors.

Just as the Dershowitz article says. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=69958&mesg_id=69958

It's about time that tired old argument was put to rest.

[Classical_Liberal]

5. Who the hell are you to determine what a true culture is

There are Israeli murderers, and they aren't even punished for it. How come Israeli culture didn't teach the settler who killed a child with a rifle butt not to do that? HOw come Israeli culture doesn't teach people that it is wrong to steal other peoples homes?

[sir_captain]

11. Two wrongs don't make a right

the actions of the Israelis, wrong as they may be much of the time, still do not *in any way* justify suicide bombings. Yes, those in the Israeli leadership who think that 20 or 30 innocent lives is a fair price for killing a target are insane. But likewise, just because Palestinian terrorists use improvised devices instead of helicopters to kill innocent people doesn't make them any less vile murderers.

[Classical_Liberal]

14. Never said the did justify suicide attacks on civilians

.,

[sir_captain]

15. Then condemn it as loudly as you condem

the Israelis

[Classical_Liberal]

17. I have condemned it. If you aren't satisfied with it.

It isn't my problem.

[Trajan]

6. Ha ! ....

Deep, dark, truthful mirror .....

Can one be so profound when they loose a barrage of propelled missiles against what are known to be innocent human beings ? ...

Where then the 'true', 'moral' culture ?

<Edit: My apologies to Elvis Costello>

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Classical_Liberal]

13. In other words Palestinians are uniquely EVIL

How enlightened. We may make same observations about Sharon the guy responsible for two massacres. Not to mention the whole Likud establishment, who have their roots in terrorists organizations. The Israeli Nation itself was founded on the notion that it is ok to take things from natives. How is that not criminal?

[Gimel]

19. I don't say that

Most Palestinians are the victims of their situation, just like people everywhere.

[Trajan]

18. Gimel ? ....

You can try this til the cows come home: But Im not buying into the notion that palestinians are by nature subhuman animals ..

Give them love ...

Give them nurture and warmth ...

And they will dance ...

Give them hate ...

Give them bile and lead ...

and they will act as the basest human animal ....

Think Jerusalem 72 AD ...

Think desperation against an overwhelming foe who despises you ...

This doesnt happen in a sterile vacuum ...

-------------

This much I know is true > Give the Palestinians parity in technology and armaments: And ? ... no more immoral suicide bombings ...

No: they would instead resort to immoral air to surface missiles instead ..... eh ? ...

Think about it ....

Israeli = faulty human being ....
Arab = faulty human being
German = faulty human being
French = faulty human being ....

ANYONE can be driven to desperation .... even the jews ....

Even the arabs ....

[Gimel]

20. Desperation

They do need all that everyone else needs, but most people have to work in a positive way to achieve something valued. That they have the wrong education is not their fault. The destruction of Israel was presented to them as positive goal for their life. With propaganda, they believed that every Israeli is the enemy.

No, don't give them armaments. Give them an opportunity for education in the broad daylight.

[Trajan]

21. This is militant domination ....

And not much more ...

Let face it: BOTH parties have legitimate greivances, yet only one party has a proper (in today's age) defensive miltary, with significant offensive capability through the application of state of the art technology ....

Israel has the big sticks, and wants to make the savages dance to the tune they play, or they whip out the big sticks and beat the living crap out of them ........

Human brutality in the name of revenge is an old game ....

Its getting rather stale in the ME ....

[Gimel]

22. Building security

The construction of the wall, the Gaza pull-out are defensive measures to but in place a non-violent way of separating Israel from this destructive force that has been unleashed, whatever its cause. Improving the lives of the Palestinians is another propriety, but that can only come once violence is stopped.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. The wall has zero to do with security...

If Israel was concerned about security, it would either get out of the West Bank and Gaza, or construct the wall along the Green Line, which is something most fair-minded people wouldn't have a problem with at all. Do you?

Violet...

[Gimel]

25. Proof

Whether you can see it or not, the wall has dramatically reduced terror attacks.

Attacks in 2003 were significantly reduced. It is a Peace Fence after all.

[Classical_Liberal]

26. It takes land that doesn't belong to Israel and that will never

bring peace. I think it is more likely the suicide bomb meme has just run it's coarse frankly. They should concentrate on making Israelis uncomfortable.

[Gimel]

27. Hard liners

never win.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Classical_Liberal]

41. How do you explan the success of Sharon?

The typical Palestinian would respond to you by looking for that much fire power. Get enough guns and you can piss on people.

[Gimel]

43. Do you speak

for the typical Palestinian?

[Violet_Crumble]

30. That's proof???

You making some unsubstantiated claim that the construction of the Apartheid Wall (which is what it is after all) is the cause of any drop in suicide bombings?? There are many reasons why attacks in 2003 were lower than before. For you to prove that barrier was the reason for the drop, you'd have to prove that none of the other reasons had anything to do with it. So you still haven't given any logical or believable reasons why the barrier is being built for security reasons....

Violet...

[Gimel]

32. Evidence

The most important evidence is that potential attacks are still occurring.

The concept of erecting a barrier to prevent and provide warning of infiltrations has been adopted by Israel on the Lebanese border, in the Jordan Valley, and, with the start of the Oslo process, also around the Gaza Strip. Experience shows that such a barrier is highly effective. It is true that no barrier provides a hermetic seal, but the existence of the barrier reduces the attempts at crossing, hinders those who try to cross, and gives warning of attempts to cross.

http://www.tau.ac.il/jcss/sa/v6n4p2Bro.html

For a professional assessment, read the entire article.

Warning: World Opinion is not the ultimate truth, the Holy Grail that you seem to think it is.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. That's not evidence...

And please don't tell me to read crap that starts by claiming the barrier is being built BETWEEN Israel and 'Judea' and 'Samaria', because it's not and that's the crux of the issue. If it was being built for security, there'd be nothing to argue against that motive if it was being built on the Green Line. But it's not...

Warning: You seem to be very wrong in assuming I think world opinion is a Holy Grail. Just because I *gasp* am capable of being critical of Israel for its treatment of the Palestinian people does not mean anything of the sort...

Violet...

[Gimel]

39. There's a map

If you don't like the words, look at the map.

[lumpy]

40. Thw wall sure as hell hasn't reduced

terror attacks against the Palestinians. The jackboots will not stop until the Palestinian's fate is reduced to that of the Native American.

[Classical_Liberal]

42. It is being done to steal land. If it were purely security it would

be on the green line.

[Darranar]

7. Suicide bombings have proven successful?

The Palestinian people are far better off than they were before the start of the Second Intifada, right?

The Arab world is much better off than they were before 9/11, right?

Dershowitz is quite wrong. Suicide bombings are a failure as a tactic.

The economic inequality and injustice of the Arab world, implemented and stregthened through US-backed tyrannical regimes, has indeed contributed to the pro-terrorist sentiment of many Arabs. It is this sort of environment where extremism can grow; inequality leads to anger, which leads to extremism by encouraging action before thought, action without thought at all.

It is true that not all oppressed peoples have resorted to terrorism - though quite a few of them have. Just because extremism CAN grow doesn't mean that it WILL.

Every guerilla organization, most of which are opposed by forces better organized and better equipped than they, needs to avoid direct battles with opponents in order to survive. The result of such an engagement is almost certain to be defeat. When was the last time that fighters attacking Israeli soldiers in the West Bank actually managed to push them out of an area? One of the means of doing so is hiding within the civilian population, a task made far easier with the level of popular support such organizations enjoy in the Occupied Territories and elsewhere. Without this popular support, their ability to conduct operations would be severely hampered, and efforts by the Palestinian Authority or the IDF to destroy them could accomplish far more than they do now.

[number6]

8. oppression is part of the mix

"Dershowitz is quite wrong. Suicide bombings are a failure as a tactic." yes, total failure, doing great harm to there cause.

[Gimel]

28. The success desired

You didn't relate to the entire sentence:

Suicide bombing is a tactic that is selected by privileged, educated, and wealthy elitists because it has proven successful.

Do the "privileged" people mentioned want to improve the lot of the poor? Is the goal to improve their society? Maybe that's what they want the world to believe, and world opinion does have considerable influence, but the goal is a much more political one. Such a "desperate" people, that they commit suicide! That gets attention. It doesn't last forever, of course, and finding out that the mechanism involves a funding that subsidizes each bomber, brings the effect down to a reversal. It is disgust that they receive in the end.

I don't buy it that "economic disparity" is the crux of it. The Arab nations are enormously wealthy.

[Darranar]

29. They are NOT enormously wealthy...

a few among them ARE enormously wealthy, but their wealth is not at all equally distributed.

You'll also note that many of those "privileged, educated, and wealthy elitists" send OTHERS on suicide bombings, something Dershowitz appears to have missed.

[Gimel]

33. The per capita income

In countries like Saudi Arabia, the per capita GNP ($11,400). It is understood that the bombers are the poor. I don't think that was actually implied, but perhaps it wasn't spelled out clearly. Certainly it is not the case in the Palestinian conflict. While Arafat is judged to be one of the top five wealthy people in the world, the Palestinians are closer to the bottom 5 per centile.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Arafat is not one of the 5 wealthiest people in the world...

Not sure who judges him to be so, but if it's true they'd best send a memo to Forbes telling them their list sucks ;)

The World's Richest People

1 William Gates III 48 46.6 United States United States , WA , Medina
2 Warren Buffett 73 42.9 United States United States , NE , Omaha
3 Karl Albrecht 84 23.0 Germany Germany , Donaueschingen
4 Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Alsaud 47 21.5 Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia , Riyadh
5 Paul Allen 51 21.0 United States United States , WA , Mercer Island
6 Alice Walton 55 20.0 United States United States , TX , Fort Worth
6 Helen Walton 84 20.0 United States United States , AR , Bentonville
6 Jim Walton 56 20.0 United States United States , AR , Bentonville
6 John Walton 58 20.0 United States United States , AR , Bentonville
6 S Robson Walton 60 20.0 United States United States , AR , Bentonville
11 Liliane Bettencourt 81 18.8 France France , Paris
12 Lawrence Ellison 59 18.7 United States United States , CA , Redwood Shores
13 Ingvar Kamprad 77 18.5 Sweden Switzerland , Lausanne
14 Theo Albrecht 81 18.1 Germany Germany , Foehr
15 Kenneth Thomson & family 80 17.2 Canada Canada , Toronto
16 Mikhail Khodorkovsky 40 15.0 Russia Russia , Moscow
17 Carlos Slim Helu 64 13.9 Mexico Mexico , Mexico City
18 Michael Dell 39 13.0 United States United States , TX , Round Rock
19 Steven Ballmer 47 12.4 United States United States , WA , Redmond
19 Li Ka-shing 75 12.4 Hong Kong Hong Kong , Hong Kong
21 Bernard Arnault 55 12.2 France France , Paris
22 Walter, Thomas & Raymond Kwok -- 11.4 Hong Kong Hong Kong , Hong Kong
23 Barbara Cox Anthony 80 11.2 United States United States , HI , Honolulu
23 Anne Cox Chambers 84 11.2 United States United States , GA , Atlanta
25 Roman Abramovich 37 10.6 Russia Russia , Anadyr


http://www.forbes.com (the url is obscenely long so if you go to the world's richest people and click on the list for 2004 you'll find the top 600. Let me know if Arafat comes in anywhere on it!)

Violet...

[Gimel]

37. Try 2003 - Despots

In the Kings, Queens and Despots list for 2003, Arafat is number 5, right behind the Queen of England:

http://www.forbes.com/2003/02/26/billionaireland.html

[Darranar]

36. It doesn't matter if the GNP per capita is 10,000 or 10,000,000...

(though the latter would be quite impressive) - what matters is exactly how much is getting to the PEOPLE of Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.

If it is understood that the bombers are poor, doesn't that tear Dershowitz's argument apart? It shows that inequality of wealth DOES lead to terrorism, and that's part of oppression.

[Gimel]

38. Inequity

but the greatest inequity is in their own homelands. It's the wealthy, like bin Laden, a son of a wealthy Saudi businessman, and though banished by them at one point, took his share of his fortune with him.

I did have this bookmarked, but do to a disk failure a couple of weeks ago, I have lost all my references. Anyway, it was bin Ladin's charismatic grasp through a pseudo-religious authority, that made the people of Afghanistan see him as a saint and savior. Many would do his bidding, just because of the power he wielded. Some of that power can be attributed to his tremendous wealth.

Arafat's wealth is less easily documented, but together with Saddam, the two were able to run terrorist operations anywhere.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=\ForeignBureaus\archive\200303\FOR20030303f.html

http://www.victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/02/22095.php

surly their complaints about the west and westerners, especially Jews is not solely a matter of money.

[bemildred]

9. More incoherent mudslinging.

"Some overprivileged Muslims support a culture of death,
while impoverished Tibetans celebrate life".

How did impoverished Tibetans get dragged into this?
Do we get pictures of the happy impoverished Tibetans
celebrating Chinese occupation in the streets of Lhasa?

And that is just the beginning of this piece of tripe.

[durutti]

10. Does plagiarism cause one to lose his job?

Apparently not in Dersh's case.

[bemildred]

16. The "At least we don't do suicide bombings" defense. nt

[Forkboy]

24. Does Dershowitz cause an upset stomach?