The day the tanks arrived at Rafah zoo

[Tinoire]

The day the tanks arrived at Rafah zoo

Among ruined houses, a haven for Gaza's children lies in rubble

Chris McGreal in al-Brazil, Rafah
Saturday May 22, 2004
The Guardian

<snip>

Amid the rubble of dozens of homes that the Israeli army continued yesterday to deny demolishing, the wrecking of the tiny, but only, zoo in the Gaza Strip took on potent symbolism for many of the newly homeless.

The butchered ostrich, the petrified kangaroo cowering in a basement corner, the tortoises crushed under the tank treads - all were held up as evidence of the pitiless nature of the Israeli occupation.

"People are more important than animals," said the zoo's co-owner Mohammed Ahmed Juma, whose house was also demolished. "But the zoo is the only place in Rafah that children could escape the tense atmosphere. There were slides and games for children. We had a small swimming pool. I know it's hard to believe, looking at it now, but it was beautiful. Why would they destroy that? Because they want to destroy everything about us."

<snip>

The army's explanation evolved through the day. At first it said it had not destroyed the zoo, then it said a tank may have accidentally reversed into it.

By the end of yesterday, the military said its soldiers had been forced to drive through the zoo because an alternative route was booby-trapped by Palestinian explosives.


<snip>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1222307,00.html

[madrchsod]

1. collective punishment is a war crime

idf soldiers and their commanders will never be brought to trial. certain democratic countries now are above man`s law they only answer to god. in three and half years we have become barbarians...

[number6]

2. yes

"collective punishment is a war crime"

[Name removed]

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[Gimel]

8. I never advocated segregation

Your assumptions are getting wilder by the minute.

[newyorican]

10. Ummm...not exactly true...

Gimel stated:
Mixing communities and ethnic groups should not be something that is done forcefully.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x67584#69279

Same sentiments were expressed here before the civil rights laws forced integration. We must be all fucked up over here...especially me as I'm white, black, Native American and Puerto Rican, no sweat though, I like me and that's what counts.

Aside: If I said something that fugly I'd deny it too...

[Gimel]

12. Not racial segregation

I am not talking about a racial segregation, but a choice for people of a particular religious lifestyle to choose to live that lifestyle in a community of their choosing. Israel has absorbed nearly a million black skinned Ethiopians into their communities. That is enough to throw out your claim of racial segregation (or that of Ms Classical).

I am speaking of the right for Jews to live in a community that observes their religion, to halt traffic on the Sabbath if they choose, to run a mikva and a kosher grocery shop, without a group of neighbors getting together and deciding that they want to demonstrate against the standards of the community of the holy day, and or what ever practice they might have that interferes with the life of the community.

They have their rights to raise a Muezzin and call at verses of the Koran in their own communities, on what every time and day they choose. But their practices shouldn't be dominating the life of the Jews and preventing them from living a quiet peaceful life.

Do you get my meaning? For this reason, there is a homeland of the Jews.

[newyorican]

15. You said "segregation"

In the civilized world, that means race, religion or creed...

Your squirming is most unsightly...

[Gimel]

17. I did not originate the charge

The post above mine is no longer visible, but it did use the word "segregation" in the subject line. I did not inject the term.

I will accept your apology when you proffer it.

[Classical_Liberal]

16. The South had many Blacks, and it sure didn't mean they

weren't segregated. The KKK just wanted the right to keep them from living in their neighborhoods and going to school with their children. People who want to keep Jews out of their neighborhoods just want to be around their fellow christians. Why shouldn't they be able to do that? Your arguments are no different than the people who try to keep Jews from moving next door.

[Gimel]

18. sure

When Jacob decided to keep his distance from his twin brother Esau, it was also segregation. Call in the ADL.

[newyorican]

19. When all else fails...

employ some irrelevant tangent...

[Gimel]

21. They sure do,

don't they though?

[Classical_Liberal]

20. That is very revealing!

I guess we should stone women for adultery too, let men have sex slaves, and rape their war captives. All ideas advocated in the Holy Book.

BTW, if you really believe the holy book is your real estate title, why don't you go along with the part where god revolks Israels right live there because of Israel's sins.

Finally the Southern Baptists and the Apartheid regime justied slavery and segregation by saying the the blacks were descendents of Ham.

[Gimel]

22. Glad you are now enlightened

Now maybe you could just solve some of the problems there, with all your concerns, and not try to see them in the problems of Israel, which you seem to lack a clear idea of.

You are constantly relating to Israel through the US experience with racism, even though I've pointed out the fundamental problems with that projection.

[Classical_Liberal]

23. The bible says so doesn't qualify as a fundamental

difference between the WEst Bank, and Isreli segregated neighborhoods, and Southern Segregation. Sorry. So long as my country funds that mess Israel is my problem.

[Gimel]

26. the term "Segregation"

Usually refers to forced separation. This isn't the case here, just a decided tendency for the populations to live separately. I have posted the views of an Israeli Arab official which agrees on that point.

I don't agree with your view that it is your obligation to solve the mid-east conflict personally. If so, the number of your posts should relate to the amount of taxes paid. No more than 10 posts per $100 in federal taxes. I, however, pay 17.5% value added tax on every purchase, plus income taxes and property taxes that all go to run Israel.

[Classical_Liberal]

30. My country is getting targeted by terrorists, for god sakes.

I don't believe this would be happening if it weren't for the money my country sends to support the Israelis no matter how bad they treat Arabs. The amount of taxes is enough to effect Israel's policy, and because of this America gets blamed for what Israel does. It has been my number one priorty besides catching bin Laden since 9/11. The Bush adminstration abandoned the bin Laden search to persue Likud's foriegn policy objective of getting rid of Hussien, so they could nix the abadonment of the settlements on the West Bank, I think they even imagined they could transfer the Palestinians outright. For months leading up to the IRaq war they said "The Path to peace is through Bagdad" Bullshit. Hussien didn't create Palestinian resentment. The settlements created it. Because of this abandonment of catching my countries enemy in favor of the Israeli Right's delusional foreign policy objectives, I focus on Israel, and will continue to.

As for your claims that opinions relflected in that poll is not support for segregation, I would like to point out, they wanted the right to legally keep Arabs out of their neighborhood. That is no different than passing a law against Jews in my neighborhood. If I did that you would rightly call me a segregationist and a bigot. Those who want to legally keep Arabs out are segregationists and bigots.

[Gimel]

35. Based on belief

So you are basing your objections to the Jewish state on the belief that Israel brought terrorism to the US. Or rather that support for Israel brought terrorism to the US.

For that reason, you think the polls show that Israel is going to further harm Arab rights to equality, according to an opinion poll, and might at some future time restrict access to new communities built by Jews who were kicked out of their homes because the Arabs didn't want any Jews living there.

do you think that there might be another backlash of attacks on the US because of this opinion poll?

Of course, if there are never any such laws, then the matter is closed.

[Classical_Liberal]

36. Your support of the opinions in that poll goes to the heart of what

Israel's problem is right now.

As for my belief, it is a well supported one. See reply 37

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=69483#69811

The fact that jews have been kicked out of homes in no way justifies doing it to Palestinians. People who believe that have the morality of three year olds.

[Gimel]

38. I haven't supported that

You are claiming that I support something which I never have. I do not support removing anyone from their home. However, governments have found it necessary to do so at times, and in times of war, people are displaced. All efforts should be made to provide temporary houseing in such cases.

The proposed communities, however would not be kicking out Arabs. Maybe they want to settle in the Negev, and the Qassam rockets are making that impossible.

That is another issue, however. I do not believe that people should retaliate in kind. Of course not, but I know that it is a human trait to do so.

[Classical_Liberal]

40. You support not letting them move next door to Jews within

the state of Israel. You support Jewish only neighborhoods in the state of Israel. This was a proposed law to keep Arabs out of neighborhoods deemed as Jewish only. That is what the poll was about. It asked if people thought it should be legal to keep Arabs from moving next door.

The security concern argument on the west bank is a serperate Issue. is a slippery slope. I don't believe you are entitled to use race exclusively to determine whether someone is a threat.

[Gimel]

42. The proposed law was killed

The survey was conducted two years ago, when Israel was being bombed by terrorists on a daily basis, a terrorist campaign supported by a large number of Palestinians and Israeli Arabs, according to opinion polls.

Is it then okay to support murder in your book, but not okay to support separation from the potential murderers? That was my point.


In Israel, Arabs have the right to live in government built housing in most, if not all, cities. There is no segregation, and I don't support racial segregation, not matter how you try to twist my words.

I do think that a community that is founded by religious families and individuals have the right to exclude members of another religion.

[Classical_Liberal]

48. You can't determine who is a murderer based on race

That is bigotry.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

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[Classical_Liberal]

49. Where the hell did I claim the jews caused 9/11?

Nowhere. I said America is getting targeted because of it's support of the Israeli right and it is true. The Jewish people are not Israel. The Jews as a people deserve no blame for what Israel and Likud or aipac do. I don't think like you. Dispensationalist Christians are the constituancy most supportive os Sharon in this country. That is the scariest fact of all. .

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

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[Darranar]

24. So the two situations are equivalent?

Israeli Arabs want to kill Israeli Jews, in general?

[Gimel]

25. The need to live separately

was my point. The two brothers managed to part cordially, if you remember. Later, the Sodomites (Esau's descendants) were destroyed by an act of G-d.

P.S. To make it abundatly clear: No, I don't think Israeli Arabs want to kill Israeli Jews in general. Their customs do not compliment one another, however, and I think that forcing Jewish communities to integrate with Muslim communities would bring about a lot of strife, at the present stage in history.

[Tinoire]

27. Gee Gimel...

Sounds like what White Americans said 40 years ago about having to live with Black people who had such stange customs as eating watermelons.

40 years later... not a single White person has died from "uncomplimentary customs" such as eating watermelons.

Would you kindly elaborate on the striful customs that dark-skinned Arabs might bring to a lighter-skinned Israel (and please spare me dragging out the token dark-skinned Sepharidic Jews- the question here has to do with the majority.)

[Gimel]

29. LOL

you are infinitely determined to force your views on another people. Cool it, my friend.

[Classical_Liberal]

32. Do you deliberately intend to create high comedy

Maybe you're a satirist working for our side.

[Classical_Liberal]

31. Bushco look more like Sodomites than Arabs. So do

the guys that raped that Palestinian women in the detention Jail. Hebrew Benjimites did Sodomy in Judges 19. Aparently goodness, and badness is in no way genetic.

[Gimel]

34. Is that

your final word on the matter?

B-)

It's Edomites, not Sodomites (I mis-stated the case earlier, my apologies).

[Classical_Liberal]

37. I don't see how this changes the nature of your argument significantly

other than the fact that the edomites appear to have become Jews under the Maccabees after they were said to be destroyed. Thus exposing a contradiction in the the "perfect" bible. I don't believe the edomites were genetically evil because they were descendents of Esau. I reject such claims made about any people.

[Gimel]

39. Such claims

were not made by me.


Contradictions are always found in perfection. What rule ever said that human minds can understand the infinite will of the Almighty?

[Classical_Liberal]

41. Either something is destroyed or it isn't

It wasn't written by the almighty. It was written by a believer, who can sin and be a bigot like anyone else. The Germans claimed your people were cursed by the almighty and did some pretty nasty things as a result of this belief. As a Jew you should know better. As a liberal. Well nobody who believes in genetic evil is a liberal, or a moderate, or center right. That is a far rightist belief.

The Christian Identity movement think they are true Israelites and you are the edomites. They lament every day that Hitler didn't complete his holy mission.

I grew up around people who hated black, Vietnamese people and Jews. your rationalizations don't sound the slight bit different from theirs.

[Darranar]

44. No one is being forced to do anything...

Just because an Israeli Arab family lives nearby does not mean that one needs to associate with them (though NOT doing so simply because of that fact seems at least somewhat bigoted).

"Seperate but equal" generally ends up being unequal, and I think it's pretty clear who most of the injustice is going to fall upon...

[Gimel]

45. That was applied to education

We are all unequal in our situations, on all levels. My neighbor has better furnishings, a new car, etc, etc.

when you get everything nice and equal there in the States, let me know.

[Darranar]

46. When did I say that the US is better than Israel?

Economic inequality and racial inequality are two different things.

[Gimel]

47. In theory

of course, yet you well know that the percentage of minorities in the lower income brackets is much higher than in the middle and upper income categories in the US. The USA is more than 225 years along since the founding of the government. It's more than 100 years since the Civil War that integration was finally promoted.

In Israel the Arab sector is Arabic speaking and they have their own curriculum. Jewish students learn two languages in addition to Hebrew, which most speak at home. I have taught English to high school and Jr high school. Ethiopian children are in the main stream, as are new immigrants from the former Soviet Union. They quickly take on the characteristics of Israeli children. There are Arab students in the general public school systems. In some cases, they have chosen to attend school that is a travel distance from home.

New guidelines will allow parents to have more of a say as to where their children learn, but there is more choice than a single assigned schooling.

Interesting that mud slinging is done without knowing the facts.

[Darranar]

51. What did I say that was not factual?

I was not talking about the current situation, I was talking about what would happen if the law that the majority of Israeli Jews - including you, apparentally - support, in regard to prohibiting Arabs in Jewish neighborhoods.

Since Israel is a Jewish majority state, the inevitable result of such segregation would be harm to the Arabs.

[Gimel]

53. This is wrong

I never said that I supported the Drukman proposed law. I don't even know what it's provisions were. I think, however, that Jews have the right to establish a community based on religious observance. It has been done, and continues to be done and exist without any laws prohibiting Muslims, just a s Muslim communities continue without laws specifically prohibiting others (to my knowledge, although prohibiting the sale of land to Jews has been the defacto law of the Arab landowners).

Viewing the situation in Israel as equivilent to that that existed in the USA about 50 years ago is wrong and not factual. That is my reference to fact.

Your lumping that into one law "prohibiting Arabs in Jewish neighborhoods" and assuming that it is universally applied I have repeatedly pointed out is not the case and I agree that it should not be the law. It is against the basic law of Israel.

The link to my previous post swhere I also said that I do not agree with the idea expressed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x69829

[Classical_Liberal]

54. Segregation wasn't universally applied in the US

so even if it weren't in Israel it wouldn't make it right.

[The Magistrate]

55. That Is A Question Of Definition, Sir

Legal segregation in terms of facilities and public accommodations continued only in the states of the old Confederacy by the middle of the twentieth century. Legally enforceable contracts barring sale of homes to a Negro buyer were in existance in many places beyond those states. As a practical matter, throughout the country there remained a great deal of segregation in terms of public accommodations: in any downtown district in those days, for example, everyone knew which department store a Negro was allowed in, and which ones a Negro was ill-advised to enter. For that matter, even in the present day, residential neighborhoods and schools remain largely homogenous in racial make-up, for better or worse, without any legal or contractual obligation enforcing that state, and sometimes despite stated government policy in the question.

[Matilda]

9. So the animals were throwing grenades .........

Sheer, petty spite. The mind struggles to comprehend.

I went into a site I keep bookmarked, put up by a young Palestinian
named Mohammed. I half expected it might no longer be up to date,
but he still continues.

It breaks my heart, but I keep clicking on it so he knows that some
of us out there do care, even if we can't do anything.

The link won't work, but if you'd like to read it, just google
"Rafah Today", and the first couple of links take you there.

[bemildred]

13. No, no, terrorists were smuggled into Israel inside the animals. nt

[Scurrilous]

14. I heard that...

...the tortoises were digging terror tunnels in their pen. As for the kangaroos, it's rumored they carry things in hidden pouches about their waistline. Sounds suspicious to me. Anyway, animals don't love their children as much as we do. Who cares if a few get wasted in the crossfire.

[Tinoire]

28. No damn it! The animals themselves were hateful

and about to grow up into Suicide bombers. "Everyone" knows that the very animals themselves want to push the Israelis into the sea.

They must all be eradicated.

[Classical_Liberal]

33. They must all be eradicated.

"like Sodomites" and midian women "that have known men", only you can save their virgins for yourselves.

(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)



They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.



Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

[Leilani]

11. The American press gives one side of the story

& it is so unfair.

This story just breaks my heart.