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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-04 04:27 PM
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Churchill for dummies
On 10 January 2000, the Weekly Standard declared that Winston Churchill was ‘Man of the Century’. This view is the consensus among the neocons. Charles Krauthammer, the Canadian émigré pundit, has written, ‘After having single-handedly saved Western civilisation from Nazi barbarism — Churchill was, of course, not sufficient in bringing victory, but he was uniquely necessary — he then immediately rose to warn prophetically against its sister barbarism, Soviet communism.’ Krauthammer’s fellow Canadian émigré, David Frum, denounced Bill Clinton for declaring that Franklin Roosevelt was the ‘Man of the Century’. According to Frum, who was still a subject of Her Majesty when he was hired as a speechwriter by George W. Bush’s White House, ‘FDR has to be found wanting. Of the three great killers of this century, one (Mao) was aided by Communist sympathisers within the Roosevelt administration ...Another (Stalin) benefited from Roosevelt’s almost wilful naiveté about the Soviet Union ...Roosevelt’s record even on the third killer, Hitler, is spotty. Roosevelt recognised Hitler’s danger early, but he hesitated to jeopardise his hopes for an unprecedented third term by riling isolationist opinion...’. Reading Krauthammer and Frum, you have to wonder whether Winston Churchill might not have ‘single-handedly’ won the second world war and saved civilisation even sooner, if he had not been handicapped by his alliance with the United States

Only a Canadian like Frum could claim that FDR was an appeaser, compared with Churchill. It was Churchill who, in 1937, wrote in his book Great Contemporaries, ‘One may dislike Hitler’s system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as indomitable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations.’ Churchill’s posthumous reputation as an uncompromising anti-Soviet hardliner is another neocon myth. True, Churchill’s ‘Iron Curtain’ speech of 1946 was seen as too strident by the Truman administration and much of the American public. But during the war it was Churchill, not FDR, who haggled with Stalin over ‘percentages’ of postwar influence in Eastern Europe and the Balkans. And in the mid-Fifties Churchill thought that Eisenhower was too hard on the Soviets and kept pushing the naive idea that a big-power summit could end the Cold War. The neocons never quote Churchill’s statement of 1954, ‘To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war.’ The neocon goal of promoting democracy worldwide was shared by FDR and Woodrow Wilson, but not by the Tory Prime Minister who called Gandhi a ‘fakir’ and announced that he would not preside over the dissolution of the British Empire........

Jaffa doesn’t quote Churchill on this subject — possibly because, contrary to his implication, Churchill, unlike today’s American neocons, was an enthusiastic supporter of eugenics, who told Asquith in 1910, ‘The unnatural and increasingly rapid growth of the feeble-minded and insane classes, coupled as it is with a steady restriction among the thrifty, energetic and superior stocks, constitutes a national and race danger which it is impossible to exaggerate ... I feel that the source from which the stream of madness is fed should be cut off and sealed up before another year has passed.’ Hitler’s ultimately genocidal programme of ‘racial hygiene’ began with the kind of compulsory sterilisation of ‘the feeble-minded and insane classes’ that Churchill urged on the British government (and which was carried out in many states in the US in the early 20th century)......

As for the Israeli connection — a familiar feature of neocon ideology — Churchill, a lifelong supporter of Zionism, was a social Darwinist who preferred Jews to Arabs. On one occasion he wrote of the legitimacy of displacing ‘the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race, has come in and taken their place.’ Churchill’s Zionism coexisted with a fear that the Jews, deprived of a homeland, might make trouble for the world. In an essay that he wrote for the Illustrated Sunday Herald in 1920 entitled ‘Zionism versus Bolshevism’, which the neocons never quote, Churchill ranted that Jews were behind world revolutions everywhere: ‘This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky , Bela Kun , Rosa Luxemburg , and Emma Goldman ... this worldwide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing.’ If Jews, whom Churchill described as denizens of ‘the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America’, could have their homeland, perhaps they would not — to use Churchill’s words — conspire ‘for the overthrow of civilisation’......

http://www.antiwar.com/spectator/spec280.html



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Donating Member ( posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-04 04:42 PM
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1. Churchill, a lifelong supporter of Zionism,.....
It's been awhile since I studied this, but if my memory serves me correctly, if the peace in the Middle East at the end of WWI had been written by T.E. Lawrence instead of by Churchill, it would be a very different world now.

Someone who knows more about this should probably post about it for details.
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minkyboodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-04 04:46 PM
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2. good article
thanks for the link
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-04 06:39 PM
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3. the lusitania sinking, in 1915...
churchill was the 'sea lord' who was behind neat trick of using passenger ships to convey war materials and troops to europe from america, in violation of US laws at time (US saw 1st war as europe ruling elite's foolishness, greed and stupidity, not a bad summation).....
hitler was a soldier in 1st war....he obviously knew how germany was misrepresented as 'evil' for sinking the lusitania, which actually blew up from relatively minor torpedo hit off coast of ireland.... an entire generation of germans saw the only thing that mattered was winning; they could tell lies to the kids to hide the horrors, which the brits were already expert at, as churchill's reputation testifies to...
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 07:51 AM
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4. Churchill
that mass-murdering war-criminal scum... the Kurds remeber Churchill well enough.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. There was a great Churchill quote about the Arabs in there...
"As colonial secretary in 1919, Churchill wanted to use gas against the ‘unco-operative Arabs’ in Iraq. He explained, in terms that Saddam might have used to justify his gassing of Iraqi Kurds, ‘I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilised tribes.’"

What a hero :eyes:

Violet...
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Well exactly
Edited on Fri Apr-23-04 08:17 AM by Vladimir
if it hadn't been for his role in WWII, Churchill would be remembered for what he was, a racist, colonialist and bigot. But then I could just have called him a tory and been done with it...
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walmartsucks Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-23-04 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. For all his faults
He was the lone voice warning fellow Europeans against appeasing Hitler before Germany began invading people. The other European leaders ignored Germany's military build-up, which was expressly prohibited by the Treaty of Versailles after WW1, thinking that if they just gave Hitler one more chance (after chance after chance after chance) he would not turn violent. Can you guess what happened when Hitler decided he had sufficient strength of arms?
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Churchill had his qualities
but that does not excuse his other crimes. He is similar in this to Stalin actually, although on a much smaller scale.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Similar to STalin?
Come on Vladimir, that is over the top. You might not like him, but to compare him to a mass murderer who killed 20 million or more is ridiculously insane.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Does 'on a smaller scale' not compute?
n/t
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. On a much smaller scale
actually the top estimate I heard for the number of Kurds gassed was 4 million, so...
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Yeah, peanuts, really. Small change. nt
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. That, Sir
Would be damned near every Kurd in the region, and given the puny scale of English forces involved, cannot be an accurate estimate. Further, two things are worth pointing out in this regard. First, use of gas at that time was considered a regular part of warfare between European armies, who had only recently concluded a war in which there were certainly several millions of gas casualties in various degrees. Second, the gas used was "mustard" agents, which are not particularly lethal, though they cause tremendous suffering in adequate concentration.

Nor, during the period of the great revolt of 1920, in which not just Kurds, but all elements of the populace, participated, was Mr. Churchill the predominant authority: Iraq was ruled from the India Office, and garrisoned by the Indian Army, which were parallel lines of authority to the Home Government, and traditionally under only the loosest control of London. Mr. Churchill's control was rather brief, extending approximately from 1922 to late in 1924, during which time the Hashemite monarchy was established in Iraq, and the "Air Control" policy established. Arguments on this in contemporary journals need to be read carefully, as they generally had as much to do with service rivalries as anything else, with the Army and Navy seeking to resist the development of an independent air arm, and the airmen seeking to establish their independence from the senior services.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Of course it was a flippant figure
You miss my wider point, which is that there are people around here who go on about Stalin all the time as if he was the antichrist. I enjoy being ridiculous on occasion, if only to highlight the ridiculousness of others (no directed at anyone in this thread incidentally). Children would spend a lot longer learning about the crimes of the British Empire and the USA and a lot less time learning about the crimes of Stalin, had the USSR won the cold war.

PS I don't want to go into whether using gas was considered regular warfare, because with all due respect I do not in the slightest bit enjoy your realpolitik Magistrate. There are times when it is not a good enough defence to say that everyone was at it.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. As You Wish, Sir
My inclination is to take a figure given by someone as an attempt to inform, rather than as a jest, particularly since there have been some wildly exaggerated figures in this matter proffered in all seriousness at other times in this forum.

History is certainly written by the victors, but it is hard to quarrel with disparragement of Stalin; he leaves most of the competition standing in the dust. My own sympathies in the matter go towards Imperial Japan, which made such strenuous efforts for the Devil's Cup in China, but found itself up against such a heavy field in the last century that its efforts have gone nearly unnoticed, which is a damned shame....

Awareness of how the world works, Sir, is not particularly enjoyable for anyone, but useful in analyzing its operations, and so cannot be really done without.
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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. In the interest of honesty and fairness
I have now looked the matter up and realistic estimates seem to hover around 10,000.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. That Number, Sir
Is accurate, and is for total deaths, throughout Iraq, from all military causes during the period of the rebellion. It is unlikely more than a few hundreds, if that, resulted from chemical agents. Casualties to the English forces were about 2,000.

Most of the fighting with Kurds took place later, in the period between 1922 and 1929. It was on a very small scale of numbers: the principal English force employed was a single squadron of Great War vintage aeroplanes, capable of carrying no more than 250 lbs. of bombs, equipped with two rifle-calibre machine-guns.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-24-04 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. A Correction To No. 13
It always pays to walk to the shelf....

Mr. Churchill was Secretary for Air and for War between 1919 and 1921, becoming Colonial Secretary in 1921, and retaining that position till the fall of Lloyd George's Government late in 1922.
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