Was Israel justified in killing Sheik Ahmed Yassin, Hamas leader.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

Sheik Ahmed Yassin, the founder and leader of the Hamas extremist group that has targeted Israelis in suicide bombings, was killed by missiles fired from Israeli helicopters as he left a mosque at daybreak today, witnesses said.

Hamas confirmed the death in an announcement broadcast over mosque loudspeakers and vowed revenge against Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

Witnesses said Israeli helicopters fired three missiles at Yassin, who was in a wheelchair, and two bodyguards as they left the mosque, killing them instantly. A total of four people were killed and 12 were wounded in the attack, witnesses said.

Yussef Haddad, 35, a taxi driver, said he saw the missiles hit Yassin and the bodyguards. ''Their bodies were shattered,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/8245426.htm

[a_random_joel]

1. Yes.

Although I believe it will do more harm than good.

[drumwolf]

2. From strictly a moral perspective, I'm not crying for Yassin...

...but I agree with Joel, it was probably extremely counterproductive as far as actually reducing the level of violence in the region is concerned.

[Darranar]

3. From a purely moral perspective, yes...

though I think it was an awfully stupid thing to do.

[RC]

4. The real blood shed starts now.

The Israeli government has lost any claim to exist in a civilized world. Killing people in wheel chairs with missiles from helicopters? That is civilized? Sheik Ahmed Yassin could not have been gotten any other way? Since when does cold blooded murder promote peace?

How many and what kind of modern war toys does Israel's self made enemies have to defend themselves with?

Now, ignore my questions & statements and flame me, correct.

[a_random_joel]

12. The wheel chair bound can still commit or incite violence.

How many and what kind of modern war toys does Israel's self made enemies have to defend themselves with?

Did prior(on edit) history end when the intifada started?

[Walt Starr]

5. It was morally reprehensible

When Hamas retaliates, I'll show as much compassion for the Israelis as is shown here for Rachel Corrie.

[sir_captain]

6. That would be a tiny bit understandable

if those Israelis were the ones here posting on DU about Rachel Corrie. If you can't feel compassion for murder victims because of what a few unconnected people have said on an anonymous internet message board, then I feel sorry for you.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Darranar]

10. So...

Israel deserves to have its citizens brutally murdered?

There CAN be peace while Israel exists, the same way that there can be peace while the Palestinians exist. There cannot be peace while incompetent and aggressive right-wing extremists are leading both sides, as is occuring right now.

[Walt Starr]

11. Israel has been brutally murdering Palestinains for years

Karma can be a bitch.

Israel needs to be left to stand or fall completely on their own. The U.S. needs to step aside and say, "what happens you brought upon yourselves."

[Darranar]

13. And so that excuses Palestinians brutally murdering Israelis?

Isn't this "eye for an eye" philosophy exactly what caused the conflict in the first place?

Do you think it would be okay for the US to slaughter three thousand innocent Afghanis in retaliation for 9/11?

[Walt Starr]

17. No, it doesn't, but it is an understandable and very human response.

Isn't this "eye for an eye" philosophy exactly what caused the conflict in the first place?

Yes. It is also what will continue it so long as Israel exists because handing over the region to the new state of Israel was the first eye.

Do you think it would be okay for the US to slaughter three thousand innocent Afghanis in retaliation for 9/11?

Well, seeing as how we killed at least that many innocent Afghanis, I can only assume your question is misguided.

[Darranar]

19. "Understandable" and "justified" are different things...

you seem to be indicating that Israelis deserve to be brutally murdered, implying that their murders would be justified. Am I misunderstanding you?

Rather than try to undo every single act that has resulted in retaliation, I think it would be more effective to simply stop the retaliation now.

What you say about the killing of innocent Afghans is true, but my question still applies. I think the way the Afghan war was carried out was reprehensible, for that reason and others. Do you agree?

[Walt Starr]

22. Hamas murderering Israelis is 100% AS justified as what Israel did

So long as Israel justifies its actions, the responses are as justifiable.

[Darranar]

26. Well, I DON'T think that Israel's actions are justified...

whatever the Sharon government says, and I don't think the responses are either.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Darranar]

36. I was referring to "Israel's actions" in a general sense...

not necessarily in regard to this particular event.

[JohnLocke]

38. Morally reprehensible??

You're going to preach to us about how killing a terrorisyt is "morally reprehensible"?
I'll tell you what's "morally repehensible" -- killing civilians deleberatly, running a terrorist organization, inspiring hatred.
That's morally reprehensible.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnLocke]

45. "a mullah with (sic) stron opinions"!

Amazing. You haven't the faintest idea about what this man was all about, do you?

[Walt Starr]

48. Prove to me he was a terrorist

But one caveat, you cannot quote U.S. or Israeli sources.

[sir_captain]

54. Here you go:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1695470.stm

[Walt Starr]

64. I see no proof in that article

A few allegations, but no proof of anything more than Pro-Palestinian activities.

[sir_captain]

71. If you don't think Hamas kills people

then there's no point in talking to you

[Liberal Veteran]

42. As an American I am committed to the notion of due process.

I just cannot support assassination.

[a_random_joel]

72. Assassination is a tricky word in a time of war.

[JohnLocke]

28. Disagree

The Israeli government and the IDF do not deliberately kill Palestinians, and instead aim to kill terrorist leaders. Sometimes they may act with disregard for human life, but they do certainly not try to kill civilians. This has been demonstrated by Israel's recent actions against what one might call "rogue" IDF troops.

Hamas, on the other hand, deliberately seeks to kill civilians. See the difference?

[Walt Starr]

35. End result, dead civilians

Sorry, I see no difference.

[JohnLocke]

41. So you don't consider intent at all?

Under your scheme, we would have to disregard intent as a factor.

[Walt Starr]

43. Well, since we only have the Israeli side as to intent

no

[sir_captain]

46. That's simply not true

Hamas has released numerous diatribes to worldwide media taking credit for their actions--not just Israeli press

[Walt Starr]

49. Well look at which faction within Hamas this guy was from

It wasn't the faction that carries out the attacks.

[sir_captain]

52. Do you not realize that he was the leader of ALL of Hamas

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1695470.stm

[Liberal Veteran]

62. My question is where does this kind of thing stop?

Would, for example, the Sandanistas be justified in sending a team to America to assassinate a couple of our ex-presidents for their material support of the Contras in the 80's?

Bringing someone to justice has a different connotation to me than firing off a couple of missiles at someone leaving a mosque.

[Darranar]

66. Right now...

no, because the acts are over and our ex-presidents are not a threat to them anymore.

When it was actually occurring, that is another matter entirely.

[Walt Starr]

67. I see only one way to stop the violence

Israel must cease to exist. Anything short of that will mean the violence just keeps on happening.

[sir_captain]

68. Yeah, I agree mostly

I was just answering WaltStarr's ridiculous claim that Yassin wasn't from "the part" of Hamas responsible for killing

[a_random_joel]

7. I get it

2 wrongs and all that...:crazy:

[Darranar]

9. Why?

Are Israelis no longer human?

Are they responsible for what their government does?

Why do you lump all Israelis together, regardless of their political opinions?

[Walt Starr]

14. Answers

Are Israelis no longer human?

Israelis are human.

Are they responsible for what their government does?

Yes.

Why do you lump all Israelis together, regardless of their political opinions?

I feel as responsible for the murders Bush commits in my name as he is. I place the same responsibilities on the citizenry of any nation.

[Darranar]

16. Okay...

why are Israelis responsible for what their government does?

[Walt Starr]

18. Because all nations are responsible for the governments they instill

Germany was held responsible, and paid a brutal price, for instilling the Nazi government.

Iraqis paid the price for allowing a brutal dictatorship, some estimates range to 30,000 innocent lives.

So too are the Israelis responsible for Sharon's madness. They put him in place, just like the U.S. is responsible for Bush's madness since we allowed that atrocity to take power.

All of us, every one, are responsible for Bush, just as every Israeli is responsible for Sharon.

[Darranar]

20. So...

I assume you supported the Iraq war, then?

I suppose the Iraqis got what they deserved... :eyes:

[Walt Starr]

23. Answers

No, but I am as responsible for the Iraq war as George W. Bush.

No, but then again, the United States has not gotten what it deserves for it's acts of terrorism.

[Darranar]

34. You don't think 30,000 dead is ample retribution...

for something that isn't even their fault?

:puke:

[Walt Starr]

44. Sorry, you read my post wrong

But to have justice played out against America, I guess an argument for 30,000 dead American civilians can be made.

[Darranar]

61. So, what exactly did you mean?

I am very strongly opposed to the murder of innocent civilians, be they Iraqis, Israelis, Americans, Palestinians, Afghanis, or anyone else.

I don't think that bloodthirsty vengeance resulting in the slaughter of more innocent civilians is at all justified or moral, and I condemn it regardless of who commits it against who.

The murder of thirty thousand innocent American civilians would be a reprehensible act of terrorism, whether it is done by Osama, Saddam, Hamas, Sharon, Ashcroft, or anyone else. American government actions are totally irrelevant to that statement.

[JohnLocke]

24. Not necessarily.

When a government does not carry out the will of the people, we should not hold the people responsible. And even if the government is elected, a population is only responsible for what they might reasonably be expected to know about their leaders, whether the population was under demonstrable duress, etc.

[sir_captain]

33. What are you talking about?

Other than the people of Berlin, who got caught up in the US/Soviet powerplay, how did the German citizens pay a brutal price after WWII? I'll grant that the firebombings in Dresden, etc, were pretty brutal, but so were the bombings in London. As far as I see, Germany had its economy rebuilt and was made into a thriving democratic nation by the Marshall plan. I don't remember every German being hanged at the Nuremberg Trials--did I miss something?

[GabysPoppy]

15. Need you really ask?

[JohnLocke]

21. Far better poll:

Poll question:
How do you feel about the recent assassination of Hamas leader Sheik Ahmed Yassin?

1. I feel it was both justified and a good strategic move.
2. I fell it was justified, but was not a good strategic move
3. I fell it was unjustified, but a good strategic move.
4. I feel it was neither justified nor a good strategic move.

[Walt Starr]

25. Here's the dillema

If you answer 1 or 2, the Hamas response is just as justified.

[Darranar]

29. How, exactly...

is killing a mass murderer equivalent to killing innocent civilians?

[Walt Starr]

37. Baloney

Show me where he is a mass murder without citing anything out of Israel press.

[sir_captain]

40. Wait...

so you're saying the idea that Hamas is a terrorist organization that sponsors and carries out terrorist bombings and shootings is just a false creation of the Israeli press?

[Walt Starr]

53. Under that logic, Sinn Fein is a terrorist organization

and not a factionalized organization with terrorist factions.

[sir_captain]

56. Fallacious analogy

Sinn Fein is the political wing of the IRA

Hamas is one organization that Yassin was the head of

[Darranar]

47. The Israeli press is more balanced than the American press...

I think you should revise that statement.

Anyway, Yassin was the head of Hamas, a terrorist organization that has launched plenty of murderous suicide bombings. How much more proof do you need?

[Walt Starr]

55. I disagree

And I consider the U.S. press the second most propogandized press in the world.

[Darranar]

69. Do you actually read the Israeli press? n/t

[JohnLocke]

79. Any evidence?

...Haaretz, J-Post, etc., have excellent unbiased news.

[JohnLocke]

50. For starters...

"In 1989, Yassin allegedly ordered the killing of Palestinians who he believed had collaborated with the Israel Defence Forces."
-- Wikipedia

See also...
Human Rights Watch

[Walt Starr]

57. And what if you are alleged to have committed mass murder

I guess it's okay if we just assassinate you over allegations?

[sir_captain]

58. They're not allegations!

Hamas takes CREDIT for their actions

[Walt Starr]

70. Give me the quote where Yassin claimed responsibility

Just one.

[sir_captain]

75. Wish granted

From Al Jazeera: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/F480B843-26BE-47D3-9587-77511B84365B.htm

[JohnLocke]

77. Allow me -- "Gotcha!" (nt)

[Walt Starr]

81. Sorry, he didn't claim responsibility

He supported an attack, but did not claim responsibility for the attack himself.

[a_random_joel]

51. No dilemma actually.

Those who defend the Palestinian activities are inadvertently or overtly acknowledging that this is a state of war. If that is the case, then the targeting of Yassin is justified.

The purposeful targeting of innocent civillians is NEVER justified, however.

[a_random_joel]

59. Dup

[a_random_joel]

27. Indeed!

In this case...

Gotta go with #2.

[JohnLocke]

30. I vote #2 as well (nt).

[Liberal Veteran]

31. I would have to go with number 4 to be honest.

I don't think those kind of tactics can be justified and I think it was a foolish move that will do nothing to break the cycle of violence.

[Walt Starr]

60. It was fun playing

and once again I am reminded of why I no longer post in this forum.

Good night all, I will not be returning soon.

I will remain anti-Israel at least as long as Sharon is in power.

[a_random_joel]

63. How come we don't see polls asking whether suicide bombing is justified?

This argument is always so one-sided, it's ridiculous. As a supporter of Israel I can concede that there is blood on their hands and I don't always agree with their methods.

I almost NEVER see the same from the defenders of the Palestinian cause. Which is typical, because the Palestinians themselves will never concede wrongdoing on their part.

Peace will never come until both sides are ready to accept the burden of guilt and constructive discourse equally.

[Darranar]

73. Here is one defender of the Palestinian cause...

who will willingly admit that the Palestinian terrorists are at least as much to blame for the current conflict as Sharon is, and that their actions are totally unjustified and immoral.

There are plenty of others here who agree with me.

[a_random_joel]

74. Cool

Too bad those who agree with you cannot affect activities on the ground.

Until those activities cease, the cycle of violence will continue.

[JohnLocke]

76. Unfortunately, the people at the "other" site are probably bashing you...

for being a "collaborator" with the "enemy" ... :eyes:

Edit: spelling.

[Liberal Veteran]

78. I agree. I reserve my pity for the majority caught in the middle.

Those people who are caught between two extremist factions that have an almost genetic hatred for one another and refuse to co-exist are the one's really deserving of our pity and they are the ones who are going to pay the price this action.

Realizing that an eye for an eye is very Old Testament, in this case an eye for an eye has merely perpetuated a cycle of violence that has continued for decades.

[Wonk]

65. Polls are allowed in the I/P forum now?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x21970
Do not start a Poll in the I/P forum.

[undergroundrailroad]

80. Locking per I/P guidelines

Polls are not allowed in I/P Forum.

Undergroundrailroad
DU Moderator
I/P, F/A Affairs