Israel razes 120 Palestinian shops

[Herschel]

Israeli forces, uncovering a tunnel used by Palestinian militants for a deadly attack on the Gaza Strip boundary, razed at least 120 Palestinian-owned shops nearby, witnesses say.

They said two army bulldozers backed by four tanks ploughed through a cluster of buildings leading up to Erez, a heavily fortified Israeli industrial zone on the Gaza-Israel boundary, after giving shopowners a summary notice to evacuate.

An Israeli army spokesman said the stores had concealed a 60 metre (180 foot) tunnel discovered under Erez, which employs some 3,000 Gaza workers.

cut

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/WireFeed/WireFeed&c=WireFeed&cid=1074160740444

Well done. Two army bulldozers backed by four tanks! Could they be stopped from striking a blow against terror? I think you know the answer.

[Forkboy]

1. I rest my case

[Jim Sagle]

2. If it's a case of Bud, I don't imagine anyone will drink it anyhow.

[Forkboy]

5. eeeeeew,that's swill

White Russians or death for me :)

[Herschel]

3. You again

I believe fighting terror is progressive.

[Forkboy]

12. You again

I believe collective punishment isn't.

[Herschel]

15. It is not collective punishment

The intent was to destroy terrorists infrastructure. The damage to shops and the like was collateral.

[Forkboy]

16. Somehow I just knew that would be the response

because,of course,it's the progressive thing to say.

[Herschel]

18. Perhaps

Because it is correct

[Forkboy]

19. or perhaps not

[lefty_mcduff]

35. Actually.

It is not.

[Zhade]

40. Because, of course, Israeli war crimes are ALWAYS correct.

So little time, so much denial.

[Sandpiper]

20. And the 8,000 to 10,000

Innocent people killed in Iraq were just "collateral" in the intent to destroy "terrorist infrastructure."

We all feel really bad when innocent people are killed, but it's the price we have to pay to stop terrorists who... kill innocent people. :crazy:

[Herschel]

21. Well said

-

[Forkboy]

23. Wait til you see the answer

:)

[Herschel]

48. You are correct

-

[Darranar]

28. How was destroying the shops necessary...

for destroying terrorist infrastructure?

[Herschel]

29. The shops

concealed a tunnel. This made it necessary to move them.

[Darranar]

30. What?

The shops may have concealed a tunnel; so what? Why was it necessary to destroy them in order to shut down the tunnel?

[brainshrub]

33. Couldn't they have simply put cement & metal spikes in the hole?

Maybe that sound naive, but that would certainly have put a damper on digging in the area again and not made more unemployed people.

[lefty_mcduff]

34. Your idea of collateral damage

cuts a pretty wide swath through Palestinian civilian infrastructure. But I must admit the 'glorious IDF has been on a tear this week, huh? You must be so proud.

[Herschel]

37. Indeed I am proud

They fight courageously, never intending to harm innocents.

[lefty_mcduff]

38. Then, if they don't 'intend' to harm innocents....

...they need a whole bunch of better training, as they harm 'innocents' with alarming regularity.

[Zhade]

41. Gee, and I thought targeting innocents reveals intent.

Silly me. I guess Tom Hurndall wasn't intentionally shot in the head, then. Or Rachel Corrie intentionally run over by a bulldozer when she was in plain view.

Pictures just don't lie. Many supporters of collective punishment, on the other hand, do. To themselves, and to others.

[GabysPoppy]

43. Rachel Corrie intentionally run over by a bulldozer

when she was in plain view?

Post the link to that picture please. I'm sure you wouldn't want to be lumped with a group of liars.

[drdon326]

44. GP....

Its always fun to watch the martyriztion of Saint Rachel
She was a terrorist supporter who died accidentally while defending terrorist tunnels that she loved so much.

I'll send this thread also to cindy.

[e-mail]

[Scurrilous]

45. How many...

..smuggling tunnels were unearthed under the home Rachel Corrie died protecting?

[GabysPoppy]

53. Hey Don

Look who hasn't answered.

[Forkboy]

54. Yeah,you're right

Don hasn't answered post 45 yet.Thanks for pointing that out GP!

[GabysPoppy]

56. Maybe you have the link to the picture

Feel free to help the person.

[Forkboy]

57. I did

before you posted this.Ironically you responded to this but not the other post.I eagerly await your spin.

[Resistance]

63. it's the Twilight Zone forkboy

remember that.

:party:

[GabysPoppy]

65. No, it's the X-Files

Little green aliens teaching people right = wrong and good = bad.

Makes people see things others don't. Something like that Corrie picture popping up again and again and all the spin in the world won't make it what you want it to be.

[Forkboy]

55. link to pics

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x55025

Note in pic one Corrie IS in plain sight.As someone who has driven bulldozers I can say they dont make them so the driver can't see out of them.There is a blind spot DIRECTLY in front of the blade (which isn't where Corrie was,again in pic 1,she is clearly in sight of the driver.)

Also,the first thing they teach you when driving heavy equipment is that if there is ANY doubt about what's in front of you,STOP!

Now,if you wish to make other arguments about Corrie or her intent you can,but this line of arguing is just silly,untrue,deceptive...and to be honest not worthy of intelligent people.

[GabysPoppy]

58. Of course you do know

The top picture was even removed from the ISM hate site because it wasn't at all involved with the incident. Different time of day and different vehicle. But you knew that didn't you?

You agenda is too obvious.

[Forkboy]

59. Actually I didn't know that

My agenda is justice.What's yours?

edit-What's funny,is that other reknowned hate site CNN.com still has the exact same pics up.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/

here's another hate site with them;

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Statement_Rachel_Corrie_031703.htm

Here's a page with info on the type of bulldozer used,the Caterpillar D-9;

http://www.fact-index.com/c/ca/caterpillar_d9.html

A link more to your liking talking about the incident;

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=5869 (real charmers here...I see the same stuff at FreeRepublic.But I know many here like it...)

[GabysPoppy]

60. Does Justice include

making charges without knowing what you are talking about? If that is the case, I do not prefer the Ashcroft method.

[Forkboy]

62. I believe you do prefer that method

[GabysPoppy]

64. Prove it!!!

You're the one that posted the bogus picture, not I.

[Forkboy]

66. Well we have posters here that openly flaunt the rule of law

they mock it repeatedly.You claim I support the Ashcroft method of justice,yet when people flaunt the rule of law you're nowhere to be seen in denouncing them.I denounce it every time I see it.It would sure seem to me that not supporting the rule of law is the Ashcroft method,not my position of arrest,fair trials and sentencing.I dont support shooting people down without a trial,judge jury and executioner style.Do you? If not,please take a moment to point that out someday.

And you'd better contact CNN and let them know they have the bogus pic still up.We know their agenda,and it isn't to make little Israel look bad.

[Herschel]

67. So you say

we should respect the law? An interesting comment for you to make.

[Forkboy]

70. What about that do you have a problem with herschel?

I know it's not your style,but why mock those of us who believe in the rule of law?

[GabysPoppy]

68. "We have posters here"

"I have in my pocket the names...." Sound familiar? You made a charge against me and I asked that you prove it. You didn't. You announce you are for Justice but yet post a picture that is bogus. Don't blame that shit on CNN as an excuse. That might hold true if this was your first venture into I/P and we both know it's not.

You made somewhat of a "judicial" statement knowing full well you were in error but suspected that no one would call you on it. The saddest part was that you hadn't made the initial statement that was so outrageous. You were just guilty of a knee jerk reaction.

That Mr. Forkboy is Ashcroftian in any language you want to translate it into.

[Forkboy]

71. I didn't know I was in error

speaking of "knee jerk reactions.

Hope you have some BenGay handy for that knee of yours....

[GabysPoppy]

72. Something else you would like to prove?

Or is it just easier to fling stuff off the wall and hope something sticks?

[GabysPoppy]

46. Kick

To save your well earned reputation of truth, justice and the American way

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[drewb]

6. LOL...

You've certainly been in a festive mood lately Resistance...

:loveya: :party:

[Resistance]

8. oh yeah

with the continuing theft of land, smashing up villages and shops, robbing of banks, and murders of civilians, what else can one do but celebrate the good times?

:headbang:

[Darranar]

7. So...

how exactly do they know that the owners of the stores were involved in this matter?

Collective punishment is great, isn't it... :eyes:

[frylock]

9. it doesn't fuckin matter..

and I'm sure that razing those shops will put an end to the violence. After all, it's worked sooooooooooooo well in the past.

[Sandpiper]

22. Remember

If the fox stole from the henhouse, you should shoot the possum who happened to be near by and see it all go down.

[Zhade]

42. Great analogy!

NT!

[mobuto]

10. What a strange policy

An Israeli army spokesman said the stores had concealed a 60 metre (180 foot) tunnel discovered under Erez, which employs some 3,000 Gaza workers.


Is there evidence the store-owners knew about the tunnel? If so, Israel's actions are justified. If not, this is absurd.

[Sandpiper]

11. And why would they be justified?

Under what circumstances could the US government come in and flatten your home or business? If we don't tolerate that sort of behavior here, why is it ok in Israel?

[mobuto]

14. Uh

The action would be justified if the storeowners sponsored or even tolerated the tunnel. The terrorists are fighting a war against Israel; I am not fighting a war against the United States, so your parallel doesn't work.

[Sandpiper]

17. Umm

Let's say your neighbor killed someone, or multiple someones, and then hid out in your basement without your knowledge.

Is it ok then for the police to come and demolish your home because a crime suspect had once used it?

If your answer to this question is no, followed by..."but this is different because Israel is fighting terrorism" you're invoking the same logic of the John Ashcroft DOJ.

[mobuto]

31. No it isn't

Let's say your neighbor killed someone, or multiple someones, and then hid out in your basement without your knowledge.


It wouldn't be appropriate for the police to demolish your home for that. That's why I issued the caveat - if the store owners knew about the tunnel then the Israelis are justified. If they didn't, then they're not. Its very simple.

[Darranar]

32. One thing...

What if the storeowners knew about the tunnel but were incapable of stopping it?

I know how bad Bush's policies are; does that mean I am responsible for them?

[mobuto]

49. Incapable of stopping it?

While I can sympathize with the storeowners in that kind of situation, that's not an effective answer. Any storeowner could have stopped it, although the risk to him might have been high.

[Darranar]

50. How?

[mobuto]

51. Well, an extreme example

would be to go to the Israelis. I don't know which Palestinian organization was digging the tunnel, but if it was Hamas, they could have gone to Fatah.

[DuctapeFatwa]

25. Of course it would be unacceptable for anyone to do it in Israel

It's OK for Israel to do it because it is the policy of the United States and both Republican and Democratic parties that Israel can do whatever it wants to whomever it wants, and the US taxpayers will pay for it, because Israel has the important job of being the weapons dump that guards America's strategic petroleum resources in the region.

[tinnypriv]

13. Of course, in the case of the IDF

There is no need for tunnels, since the transfer of weapons for aggression and terrorism is done openly.

Though if it was done secretly, I'm sure dynamiting every house within 2 miles of Lockheed Martin would be just fine.

[number6]

24. man , I knew we should've Bull-dozed Timmy McVieghs

home town :evilgrin: :crazy: :eyes: :silly: // :hi: Forkboy Resistance Ductape...
do you sometimes feel like I/P is the twilight zone

[Resistance]

26. no doubt

http://www.scifi.co m/twilightzone/img/tz_01_a.jpg

[DuctapeFatwa]

27. It would be against the rules for me to say what I think it is

you'll just have to use your imagination ;)

[Comadreja]

36. Just slow-motion expulsion

If you do it gradually, it's okay. That's how the US public is lulled along to accept the Israeli plan.

"There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here (Palestine) to the neighboring countries, to transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe should be left." Jospeh Weitz, Davar, 29 September 1947 from "My Diary and Letters to the Children", Massada, 1965, III, p. 293.

Cheerleaders for Israel's Christian Zionist US fan club:

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/christiantaliban.jpe

[Zhade]

39. Whoo! Collective punishment!

Wait...isn't that a war crime under the Geneva Convention?

Why, I think it is.

[packerssuck]

47. There's no nice way to fight terrorists. If the palestinians want

to fight a guerilla war, using civilians as shields, then they must live with the consequences. I think the IDF has used great restraint in not bombing them to kingdom come.

Can you imagine if Mexico used a guerilla war in order to do terror attacks against the U.S. There would be no Mexico.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gimel]

61. Why that's not collective punishment

That was targeted to uncovering the tunnel, which was found. The Geneva convention on war crimes doesn't apply to one side and not the other. If killing innocent Israelis is not a war crime, neither is demolishing buildings that harbor potential tunnels.

[packerssuck]

69. Again, Arafat allowing and encouraging terror attacks against

Israel leaving IDF no choice but to do Arafat's job for him.