Slain cameraman's family wants answers from Israel

[Resistance]

Reuters UK

LONDON (Reuters) - Three-year old Alexander wants to know why his daddy was killed -- it is more than nine months since award-winning cameraman James Miller was shot dead in the Gaza Strip, but no one has been held responsible.

Witnesses have described how Miller was shot by Israeli soldiers who said they were demolishing a house suspected of concealing a tunnel used by militants in the Rafah refugee camp to smuggle in weapons from Egypt.

With the help of friends and family, Miller's wife Sophy has set up the "Justice for James Miller" campaign for a full criminal investigation. The family believes the 34-year-old was targeted by soldiers and shot even though he waved a white flag.

[lefty_mcduff]

1. When will people realize that many in the IDF

are either utterly incompetent (mistakingly gunning down innocents and then passing the 'mistake' off as 'collateral damage' ) or, if these killings are not 'accidental' - murderers. The IDF cheer-leading squad cannot have it both ways.

[Resistance]

3. in my view

it is a combination of both: some incompetence and "collateral damage", and some killings are completely intentional. The way these stories are completely buried in the news leads me to believe there is alot more cold-blooded murders going on than they want anyone to be aware of.

[Jim Sagle]

2. It's a war zone. Shit happens. There are about 20 war zones even as we

post. Why is this the one that gets all the attention? Why is Israel's government the only one people think they can push around with demands for "answers?

[Resistance]

4. oh ok

next time a suicide bomber blows away a bunch of innocent people, I'll look for a similar rant from you about how "It's a war zone. Shit happens"

[Gimel]

8. Those homicides

are not perpetrated in a war zone. Haifa, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem are not war zones, although the Palestinian terrorists would have you believe so.

As for Miller, waving a little white flag after dusk is highly irrelevant. It could not be seen.

[lefty_mcduff]

9. More hair splitting.

I doubt very much if the Iraqi people got to decide where 'war zones' are. I would assume that war zones are were the 'war' is 'happening' (just a guess).

By your logic, if suicide bombers are not committing an act of war, or a crime against humanity (but 'merely' a homicide), what is up with the 'war zones' in the first place. Surely, a 'homicide' is subject to criminal investigation, not military action.

At least, that has been Sharon's logic, and one of the few times that I agree with him.

[Gimel]

19. More zones

And so you might call New York city a war zone, and Moscow as well. There may be no borders to this war, and Iraq is not the issue here. The Palestinians throwing rocks at border patrols are instrumental in bringing the war to their area. A cameraman photographing a conflict, knows that he is in a position of danger, even if his three-year-old son does not.

A civilian bus is not a war zone, and explaining these casualties and deaths to the victims families is not easy either. Yet, you don't see 900 Israelis demanding an explanation from Arafat, or do you?

Just a few minutes ago there was a suicide bomber in the Gaza strip. That was simply a suicide bomber because there were no other casualties reported. A bomber doesn't necessarily imply blowing up people. Many IRS bombers blew up only buildings, as they sent advance warnings and people evacuated. Were they not bombers? Is homicide not murder? Call them genocidal bombers when they blow up twenty or thirty people in a restaurant or bus. That is more descriptive.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. Descriptive, but totally incorrect...

Calling them genocidal bombers is totally wrong. If anyone here needs any assistance in understanding what genocide is, there's a really good book by Samantha Power called "A Problem from Hell" : America and the Age of Genocide The book won't talk about the I/P conflict for the pretty obvious reason that there's no genocide going on there and when Raphael Lemkin coined the term and wrote the Genocide Convention he most definately did not have suicide bombings in mind. They don't meet the criteria of being genoicide and personally I feel it's totally insulting to the memory of those who have died in genocides to try to water down the term so badly that it applies to instances where genocide isn't happening...

Violet...

[Resistance]

33. Looks like an interesting book

[Gimel]

34. In crime

intent is important, and intent to genocide is certainly evident.

Genocidal means "pertaining to genocide" not necessarily accomplished.

[Gimel]

40. Genocide against the Jews

Since this is not isolated to the current suicide attacks, and other deadly attacks against Israeli Jews, but a long history of attacks going back hundreds of years, I think I'd be quite safe to say that the victims of the Holocaust would be aghast that todays Jews, their children and grandchildren have faced this type of slaughter in the Israel, the Jewish homeland. While seeing your loved ones' body parts strewn over the street of Jerusalem is not comparable to the horrors of years of starvation, separation from family and forced into slavery before extermination by the thousands, it is not so far removed from it either.

That the world has not become motivated enough to put a stop to this, and is in fact organizing against the Jewish state's defensive need to build a wall as an anti-terror measure is just a continuation of the dis-interest it showed in the years proceeding the Second World War. It is every bit as unsettling, and will result in a greater sense of urgency in the Jewish community to self-preservation.

[Resistance]

41. remind me of something

aren't you of the opinion that halting the illegal settlements is "genocidal" on Jews?

(I believe that is indeed the term you used.)

[Violet_Crumble]

42. No, this isn't genocide against the Jews...

And using the 'logic' just used, it could be argued that deadly attacks against Palestinians over a long history of time are also genocide. The fact is that neither is genocide, and even if Holocaust victims could be aghast, doesn't make suicide-bombings genocide. The book I suggested to you is an excellent read and goes into great detail about what genocide actually is. I don't think it's too hard to get hold of, either..

Claiming that the wall is a security measure is ignoring reality, when everyone is very aware that the criticism of the wall is over it's route carrying it into territory that isn't Israel. Of course the international community should speak out when Israel does things that wouldn't be acceptable for other states to do. What Israel is doing has zero to do with self-preservation, and everything to do with expansionist dreams of the corrupt and murderous Sharon...

Violet...

[tinnypriv]

21. Actually it could

Since the Druze bulldozers/APC's in that area have nightvision, as is known to almost anyone involved in the subject of Miller.

Incidentially, through a nightvision device white appears as lightning white.

Oh, and it was a huge white flag, so please appraise yourself of the facts before making comments which would be extremely offensive to the family.

[Resistance]

22. I would like to add a link

Justice For James Miller

in case there are inquiring minds out there who would like to know the actual facts, rather than amusing themselves with all the rhetorical posturing.

[lefty_mcduff]

5. Yeah

It's a war zone alright. Trouble is, only ONE side has all the toys, soldiers and more importantly *POWER*. *THAT* side needs to be held to a higher level of accountability.

By the way - is 'shit happens' really an acceptable excuse for the random slaughter of innocents (on either side)? Just wondering.

[Jim Sagle]

6. It wasn't random slaughter. It was a war zone. Press people are always

at risk in a war zone. Somehow Israel is always accountable while any other country would rarely be mentioned in conncetion with such a small-scale event.

[lefty_mcduff]

7. No Jim.

I was asking if 'Shit Happens' applies to *ALL* innocents who get killed in a war zone. I think you know where I'm headed.
Now, answer the question.

[Jim Sagle]

24. I already answered, but just to nail it down, I'll answer it again.

"Shit happens" is NOT an excuse for random slaughter, but this was NOT a random slaughter.

[_Jumper_]

36. Why is Israel mentioned when this happens?

For the same reason the death of half a dozen Israelis is breaking news on TV and a major story in newspapers when the far greater amount of deaths in other areas of conflict are ignored. Namely, religion. Many people care about what happens in the "Holy Land." They couldn't care less about Columbia or the Congo.

[Gimel]

39. Crucial to peace

Many think that Israel's conflict with the Palestinians is crucial to solve for world peace. The US involvement in support for Israel and finding a solution to the conflict make it a high-profile news item Haiti is also prime time, however. I doubt if the value of human life is the true consideration.

[Gimel]

38. All the toys

Apparently you mean only Israelis have guns. Plenty of Israeli civilians have been killed by sniper fire, including a 10 month old infant.

While the BBC sends reporters into danger, the Israelis were in their own homes or driving with a bullet-proof vest, and still killed with a bullet to the neck, similar to the death of Miller.

While Miller's family has the right to demand investigation and prosecution, so do Israelis have a right to demand that the Palestinian Authority stop the terror. What is amazing, is the hostility toward Israel when 3 westerners are killed, while pursuing dangerous missions to try and prove Israel in the wrong. More than 600 Israeli civilians have been killed, and little is acknowledged about the right of Israel to pursue attackers.

It makes me wonder about the value of life to those who claim they are humanitarians.

The account of the "reenactment" is certainly biased on this, as their intent is to prove the IDF guilty.

The higher accountability has been shown by Israel. Hundreds of incidents have been investigated and soldiers were prosecuted when found guilty of use of force that was unnecessary. The Palestinian terrorists also claim proudly their accountability in murdering innocents.

Defending Israel's right to self-denfense, and bringing to justice the terrorists who have slaughtered Israelis is as much a right as you have to investigate Miller's death.

[Herschel]

10. Here is the family's answer

As Mr. Sagle has explained in his unique manner, people assume risk and die in war zones. Let Mr. Miller rest.

[lefty_mcduff]

11. I doubt very much

that you'd accept 'Shit Happens' as a reasonable response should Israeli citizens be killed, arguably murdered, whether they were in a war zone, or not. I know I wouldn't. And don't.

[Herschel]

12. I believe it is being implied

The killing was a deliberate murder of an innocent. There is no conclusive evidence it was.

[lefty_mcduff]

13. One more time.

Is 'Shit Happens' a reasonable repsponse to the death of an innocent, whether by accident or by murder? Whether it's through a bomb, bullet or whether they're in a war zone or not. If you choose to take up Mr. Sagle's colors, then at least answer the original question.

[Herschel]

14. In fairness to Mr. Sagle

He also stated the killing took place in a war zone. While the two words you mention are not adequate, it was not his entire statement.

[lefty_mcduff]

15. No Herschel.....

This was my original post....

"I was asking if 'Shit Happens' applies to *ALL* innocents who get killed *IN A WAR ZONE*. I think you know where I'm headed.
Now, answer the question."

Still waiting...

[Herschel]

16. Your answer is no

However, allow me to elaborate. I believe Mr. Sagle's colorful description is rightfully read as 'accidents happen'. While unfortunate, it is quite true. It would not be an accurate reading, in my view, to interpret his comment as applying to innocents killed deliberately.

[Resistance]

17. Tell you what

How about we pass along Jim's "Shit Happens" message to the Miller family, and let them decide how his "colorful description" should be rightfully read?

[lefty_mcduff]

18. Thanks.

Perhaps next time we can all avoid using the term 'Shit Happens' (or derivatives thereof) when we're discussing people who have been killed. If for nothing else other than respect for the families involved.

(end of sermon)

[Herschel]

20. You two

I believe Mr. Sagle made the assumption Mr. Miller's family does not participate in this forum. That would seem a reasonable one.

[lefty_mcduff]

23. Wow. You really like getting the last one in.,

So do I. I never claimed any family member participated here. That wasn't even part of my point. I was in a discussion about whether 'shit happens' is an appropriate way to explain, describe or brush off when an innocent dies.

In my closing post I meant to say that in *ALL* cases of innocents dying, 'Shit Happens' should not be used, especially on a suposed 'progressive' forum, to explain, describe or brush off when an innocent gets killed. If *NOTHING ELSE* (there are many more reasons) that out of respect for the family. Not just in this case, but *EVERY* case.

And as you're so fond of saying - "I'll leave it at that".

[Jim Sagle]

25. How about "occupational hazard"?

[Resistance]

26. Sure

If you apply that logic, so is riding a bus to work in Israel.

Shit just happens man.

:party:

[Jim Sagle]

27. Cute...but wrong. Oh, my.

[Resistance]

30. How so?

Oh wait, I get it. When Palestinians do the killings, it's horrific and unjustifiable terrorism. But when Israelis are the killers, then well "shit happens" and the victim should have known better.

[Forkboy]

28. nah,it's just "pranks and mischief"

[Jim Sagle]

31. Or maybe "this 'n' that".

[DuctapeFatwa]

29. WTF? Hasn't the IDF sent some goons to blow their house up yet?

Don't tell me poodleBlair is objecting. Sounds like somebody's on their way to Administrative Detention and the Torture Lottery.

American taxpayers work hard to provide Israel with all the weapons it needs to stamp out all opposition to the reported and tragic accidental deaths that may have resulted from routine assassination operations in refugee camps.

[packerssuck]

35. Cameraman in a war zone is a very hazardous occupation. They

know the dangers involved.

[Resistance]

37. yeah

close proximity to IDF soldiers can result in being murdered in cold-blood.