Kerry Endorses Israel; Who should he endorse post 9/11 for chrissakes.

[IconoclastIlene]

Should Kerry endorse the Saudi's, the Palestinians; who danced in the streets on that day, 9/11 when the trade towers came down?

Is Osama Bin Laden an Israeli? Why wouldn't any sane individual who is running for President be pro-Israeli.


Why would Kerry come out and say he was all for the Arab countries?

I am uncertain why anyone would be offend or surprised.

But I am proud that he took a stand on it!!!!!

Inflammatory be damned!

I was pretty inflammed myself on 9/11; and it wasn't because of a damn thing that Israel did? Do we have such short memories?

Madame B.

[DuctapeFatwa]

1. Do you favor internment for Muslims only, or anyone with a

Middle Eastern appearance?

Let's don't call it internment, though. Too much baggage.

How about hmm, "progressive protective housing for vulnerable populations?

you know, just to protect people from all that inflamation.

[bryant69]

8. Good response

Let's put it another way. Being Pro-Israeli means your a racist right? I mean there's no other reason to take the Israeli side, is there?

Of course there is, but why mince words when you can fling invective?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Indiana Democrat]

53. You can't discuss Israel here.

You'll be called a racist, a bigot, a genocidal maniac and a hater of anyone brown.

Facts be DAMNED!

[NNN0LHI]

30. "progressive protective housing for vulnerable populations?" Does not...

...fit on a bumper sticker DF. You know as well as I do how elections are won. I think the worry of internment camps for Muslims and anyone else would reduce dramatically if Bush is gone. Don't you?

Don

[DuctapeFatwa]

33. bush is a figurehead who can be replaced by another more attractive one

if needed.

I think many worries would be dramatically reduced if there were a change in policies.

[NNN0LHI]

41. So we should keep the devil we know instead of take a chance...

...with someone new and keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best, or what? What are you suggesting? I was in the barber shop yesterday and I was looking around at who was in there. It was a bunch of old average, not rich, retired guys who vote, talking (lying) about their golf game earlier in the day and watching the stock ticker on CNBC. You think these guys are ready to take it to the streets? Or that they even really want that much change in they're life?

Don

[JohnLocke]

52. Huh?

I don't remember anyone saying anything about internment of Muslims. It's like asking somebody, "So, how often do you beat your wife?"

[Moderator]

57. I am locking this thread.

All discussion about the Israeli/Palestinian situation belongs in the I/P forum.


Please feel free to continue the discussion there.

Thank you.


DU Moderator

[dawgman]

2. Perhaps because one of the main reasons there were at least 19 men

who hated strangers enough to crash themselves and a plane into two world famous landmarks killing 3000 men and women was because of our foreign policy, especially our Israel-Arab policy.

I don't know maybe some tact and thought about how to avoid firing up millions who already hate us, many of whom hate us enough to blow themselves up just for a chance to kill someone somehow related to us. Maybe just remaining neutral?

[MikeGalos]

9. Actually

bin Laden's statements at the time said we were being punished for desecrating the holy land of Arabia by our non-Moslem military presence. He didn't say anything about Israel until much later.

Of course, Bush eliminated that problem by quietly doing exactly what bin Laden wanted by removing our bases in Saudi Arabia. Guess his secret plan to protect us from terrorism is to give the terrorists whatever they ask for.

[dawgman]

13. Actually he had been spitting anti-israel pro-palestine shit for as long

as I have known about him. And all the way across the board people in that region point to our one sided support of Israel as the main reason some hate us.

[MikeGalos]

15. Even if that were true

(and it really wasn't his hotbutton issue), you're now saying that our best solution to insane fanatics is to do whatever they want?

I'd prefer we base our national policies, both foreign and domestic, on what we think is right rather than just desparately trying to obey the whims of every nutcase on the planet who has an opinion and idiot followers.

[dawgman]

31. Is that what I'm saying? I didn't realize I was such a simpleton.

Look maybe if we quit dumping billions of dollars of MY money into Israel's "defense" we could remove the basis for the rhetoric that makes sane men want to kill ME. Maybe if we gave Palestine billions of dollars for education, job training and healthcare we could trump the rhetoric. If we insist on paying for other peoples shit why not do the same for Israel?

Why does fighting those who hate us always involve our poor people bombing the shit out of their largely innocent poor people? Doesn't make a whole lotta fucking sense does it?

The only solution we as a nation seem to be unwilling to try is the one that really might change the "hearts and minds" of those who potentially hate us.

[MikeGalos]

54. Gee, I'm confused

are you now advocating what you called "anti-israel pro-palestine shit"?

[dawgman]

56. What the hell are you talking about? What was anti-Israel?

And there is a great deal of difference between calling for equal treatment of both sides and calling for the death of every jew in the middle east.

Answer the question; why do we dump billions of dollars into the Israeli military? Wouldn't it make you mad if you were on the other side? Wouldn't dumping billions of dollars into your healthcare and education go a long way towards ameliorating that anger?

[dawgman]

39. Kicked for an answer.

[dawgman]

50. I understand you may not be looking right now so I'll keep this kicked

until you get back to me.

[Tinoire]

19. You are supposed to pretend he wasn't so that we can continue

painting Muslims as having no cause for grievance.

Certain answers to "why do they hate us" must never be answered. Might lead to some nasty answers that would bring support to halting the expansion of Israel whose borders have still, deliberately, not been declared and support for a one state solution where all would have equal rights and political representation.

[_Jumper_]

35. Ask any Muslim or Arab

This is not exactly a secret. The #1 reason they hate us is because we support their enemy over their "brothers." This is critical for Al-Qaeda's recruitment. End this, and you've reduced Al-Qaeda's recruitment exponentially.

[redsoxliberal]

43. Muslim and Arab here

don't hate Americans.

[dawgman]

44. yes you do

you just haven't admitted it to yourself yet.

Just kidding welcome to DU.

[redsoxliberal]

45. Har har :)

thank you for the warm welcome.






I also have an Irish quarter... but that part is drunk, so I only take my Arab views :P

[dawgman]

46. Interesting mix I have a buddy, Amir, who is 3/4 iranian and quarter Irish

.

[Terry_M]

3. Yes

A good political move by a career politician...

[LoneStarLiberal]

4. Endorse Israel, Reject Jewish Fundamentalism

I'd like to see Kerry (and for that matter, the rest of the Democratic field) endorse Israel and the right to peacefully exist of an Israeli nation while at the same time condemning Jewish fundamentalists and framing them properly where they belong alongside al-Qaeda related organizations, al-Aqsa, and Hamas as part of the problem.

There will always be an Israel. There cannot be an Israel at peace without putting a stop to the ridiculous practice of placating the Gush Eminum fundamentalists and their ilk. Moderate and secular Israelis need to realize this and need to confront this piece of the problem in their midst for the sake of a better Israel.

[Forkboy]

5. Excellent response LSL

I'd love to see that,including condemnations of extremists on the opposite side as well.Both groups are killing Israel.

[German-Lefty]

7. Amen

If Kerry could get the endorsement of the Isreali Labor party (or just some memebers), we'd be all set :-).

Not of Isreal is right wing lunny.

[MikeGalos]

11. Hey, works for me

as long as Kerry is willing to denounce fundamentalists of ALL religions including Christianity (no, wait, lots of votes there - can't offend them) and Islam (no, wait, the Saudi royals support Wahhabist Islam - can't offend them) then condemning the tiny minority of fundamentalists inside the tiny minority of Jews in the world seems fair.

Of course, you do realize that comparing anybody to Hamas is pretty ludicrous. They, after all, think that all the wars since the 18th Century were part of an evil Jewish plot to take over the world through the Rotarians and the Lions Club. (They're not fundamentalist, they're fundamentally nuts!)

[Tinoire]

22. THAT would be a good start. Good post.

I'd go a little further but with a sensible person like yourself, we would always come to an agreement. Something has to be done. Too much blood-shed and for what? A few parcels of land?

Extremists on both sides need to be condemned and stopped. Anf both peoples deserve political leaders interested in a just peace.

Shalom, salaam!

[mac2]

26. Where have you been?

Fact is, it is one sided and not supported by the American people who want both groups to have a state and live in peace together. We're sick of this type of propaganda.

The problem is hatred. They use that to divide us...all over the world for their own power and profit.

[shance]

48. Im with you**** Lets include ALL fundamentalism.

am so over ALL OF IT**********************

BUH BYE***

[MikeGalos]

6. Of course he did

The Democratic Party does as well. It's only the wildest fringies that don't support the only country in the Middle East (and one of very few in the world) that has:

• Equal rights regardless of gender
• Equal rights regardless of sexual preference
• Equal rights regardless of religion
• Equal rights regardless of ethnic identity
• Equal rights regardless of race
• Freedom of the press
• Freedom of speech
• A multiparty democratic election process
• An independant court system that often rules against the government
• A multiparty parliament with representation from all ethnic groups
• Government sponsored health care for all
• Government supported Trade Unions

Sounds a lot like what we'd LIKE to get here if the GOP didn't keep blocking us.

What, you'd prefer he support theocracies or monarchies or governments that have constitutional bans on citizenship for certain ethnic groups?

Maybe he should support governments and factions who support murdering civilians as a way of getting good press coverage?

[dawgman]

10. Why support any of it? Why does our foreign policy ALWAYS entail

picking sides in a dispute? What good can it do the US to keep supporting one side over the other? Get the fuck out of it, we'd get in alot less trouble.

[MikeGalos]

12. Well

because we as liberal democrats support liberal democracy and think it's a pretty good idea.

Of course, if you DON'T think that liberal democracy is a good thing, why are you here?

[DuctapeFatwa]

14. Because it makes rich men richer. Without the weapons dump, who will

guard America's oil in the region from rogue natives who might try to steal it?

Reducing the level of conflict there would not be supportive of US business interests.

[mac2]

28. President Washington would say the same thing.

Why should we Americans die and go broke for a religious/land fight over 40 years old? We are not some other countries mercenaries.

The Israelis refuse to negotiate if any terrorism occurs. I've heard both Sharon and Peres say this on CSPAN. The cycle of violence won't stop until they are off Palestinian lands. Both need a state. A democratically appointed leader and government for all citizens not just a few. We need to accept their choice for a leader in the world community and negotiate with them...giving them respect.

Terrorism will occur especially during negotiations because there are those who profit off war and don't want peace. There are those who have a vision of Zionism. Those who want all of the ME to be part of the World Union with Jerusalem as the capital of the world. There are many who have self destructive plans for the area (second return of Christ, etc.)and they will stop the peace negotiations at all costs as a matter of their religious prophesy. We must ignore them.

No ones God ever meant to kill for power. That is a man made concept.

[plurality]

16. cause only Palestinians danced on 9/11?

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_whitevan_020621.html

Maria, who asked us not to use her last name, had a view of the World Trade Center from her New Jersey apartment building. She remembers a neighbor calling her shortly after the first plane hit the towers.
She grabbed her binoculars and watched the destruction unfolding in lower Manhattan. But as she watched the disaster, something else caught her eye.

Maria says she saw three young men kneeling on the roof of a white van in the parking lot of her apartment building. "They seemed to be taking a movie," Maria said.

The men were taking video or photos of themselves with the World Trade Center burning in the background, she said. What struck Maria were the expressions on the men's faces. "They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me. I thought it was very strange," she said.

snip

According to the police report, one of the passengers told the officers they had been on the West Side Highway in Manhattan "during the incident" — referring to the World Trade Center attack. The driver of the van, Sivan Kurzberg, told the officers, "We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem." The other passengers were his brother Paul Kurzberg, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. What's Your Point?

NT

[plurality]

21. my point is that one of the reason's listed...

as to why we should support Israel unconditionally was that Palestinians were shown cheering in the streets on 9/11. (Never mind that the cheering was from a recorded wedding celebration the day before)

I posted this because I was wondering if knowledge that Israeli intelligence agents arrested on 9/11 for recording and cheering the destruction of the WTC would have any affect on the posters feelings on the matter.

[_Jumper_]

36. It's no use

That is just a racist talking point. Every clear-thinking person knows that there were people in all ethnic groups who were glad 9/11 happened.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. He has also made no secret of his belief that Sharon is a block

to the peace process. This seemed to be a point missing in other conversations about him on another thread last night.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. You Want Accuracy From The Net...

-:)

[Tinoire]

27. Yes but Kerry is also the man who went against Biden for Netanyahu

to appear before Senate for another cheer-leading episode.

===
And Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., who chairs the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, "refused to allow" Binyamin Netanyahu to testify before his committee on a recent U.S. visit.

Democrat Tom Daschle, Senate majority leader, then blocked a bipartisan resolution by Senators Mitch McConnell and Dianne Feinstein to designate the P.L.O. as a terrorist group. "Counterproductive," said Daschle, preferring to send his Democratic whip, Harry Reid, to repeat the mantra that Bush "should have been involved in this much earlier."

Democrat Joe Biden then refused to allow Bibi Netanyahu to appear before Senate Foreign Relations. The former prime minister's purpose was to call attention to Sharon's acceptance of — and Arafat's rejection of — the U.S. proposal for a cease-fire that would have saved hundreds of civilian lives.

"Totally inappropriate," decreed Biden, forcing his fellow Democrat Joe Lieberman and Republican Jon Kyl (denounced as a "sicko" by the chief U.S. Arab lobbyist) to provide a less prestigious forum to get Israel's message across.

Lieberman, as he famously did in another moral matter a few years ago, went against the Democratic leadership. He said Bush's call to stop the counterattack "muddled our moral clarity" in the war against terror.

This emboldened other presidential candidates, Senator John Kerry and Representative Richard Gephardt, to speak out against the liberals' crusade to force Israel to abort its clean-out of terrorist nests. New York's senior senator, Charles Schumer, had been blasting the hypocrisy of blaming Sharon for responding as Bush did to terrorist outrage, while the junior senator's office ritually co-signed a note and put out a release.

http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200204/msg00192.html

http://www.somebodycares4u.com/id795.htm

[PVnRT]

23. The Palestinians "dancing in the streets"

That shit was staged, as has been proven countless times.

Why should he endorse either side?

[mac2]

25. Those photos were from a few years ago...not 9/11

[PVnRT]

29. At any rate, the incident was not what people wanted it to be

n/t

[mac2]

24. As President G. Washington said...about foreign involvements...

It is wrong to fall in love with one country while being against another. We should not take sides but encourage peace.

9/11 was caused by a group of Neo Cons and known by Bush for his own power and profit. If they were Zionists, Arabs, Saudi Arabia, World Bankers for control and profit, the Bush crime family, or a combination of three, etc., they should be held accountable. We should leave no stone unturned. The truth not twisting it to fit what you want to hear.

9/11 is being used to take away democracy all over the world. People are dying, straving, suffering all over the world right now. Ask yourself who profited politically and financially from it?

[Scott Lee]

32. Oh goody. The Fear Factor again.

Palestinians dancing in the streets. Giving out candy to children. Here we are again, in the wailing throes of 9/11 instead of facing the future.

Senator Botox and his conservative democratic ways are following the same old tired path that is stagnating Democratic politics and making us losers. No, it is not a losing thing to support the idea of a safe and secure Israel. It is a losing thing not to go beyond that and reach out to the entire Middle East, to show the Arab/Muslim people that we are not forever against them, that we do not want to shore up Israel as a military front for abuse of the Palestinians and a launch base for any future war to topple yet another Arab government.

Dean made the horrifying declaration that we should be "even handed" in the Middle East. But then again, Dean is a visionary. Botox is a follower. And a bad one at that.

[dawgman]

37. Good Post, Dean and Kucinich are the only candidates worthy of my vote.

Fuck the rest.

[MikeGalos]

55. Ah yes

with such wonderful "Progressives" as you, we'll get another four years of GWBush followed by eight of his brother Jeb.

Clear thinking.

[lurk_no_more]

38. One Question!

dean dropping out with $9 mil (?) left, just who is dean the visionary leading now?



And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[sangh0]

40. Having those "visions" again?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=780914&mesg_id=781733&page=

[_Jumper_]

34. What is your "final solution"?

Madame_Bovary (57 posts) Mon Feb-23-04 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #31

40. The Arab Community is a walking conflagration


so why shouldn't they be inflammed whenever something or someone's opinion doesn't fit in with their agenda?

I hope they can just simmer themselves the hell down, for a change.

Madame B.


Things never go so well that you should have no fear; nor so badly that you should have no hope...Turkish Proverb

[GreenPartyVoter]

42. The Geneva Peace accords is the way to go

Stop bankrolling Israel. No more weapons either.

[IconoclastIlene]

47. I stand by my post.

Damn straight Kerry should come out and tell the folks how he feels about the situation in the middle east.

You have all gotten so used to a liar that you get confused when confronted with a straight talker? It is sad, sad.

If you don't like it; vote for Nader......he is part Lebanese..maybe that is why he is trying to run again?

Who knows?

Madame B.

[dawgman]

49. You know, I am not going to vote for Nader, but there is no gaurantee that

I will vote for the Dem nominee. I watched as a golden opportunity for progressive politics in this country slipped through the fingers made slippery with fear or greased by big biz money of high power DLC NDN dems. I may never officially return to this party.

[DrFunkenstein]

51. Does "Endorse" Mean Support Whatever The Likud Party Wants?

If so, I hardly think Kerry endorses Israel. He doesn't exactly share the same worldview as Ariel Sharon. However, if you mean that he strongly supports a traditional ally, and one of the most democratic outposts in the Middle East, then sure.

Keep in mind that Kerry supports parallel concessions, which is not at all the position of the Likud Party (they demand the Palestinians sustain a total cease fire before any real progress can be made).