U.S. using Israeli bomb detonator in Iraq

[Herschel]

- Israel has provided the United States with a new system meant to locate and destroy roadside bombs, the Middle East Newsline reported. U.S. officials said the Israeli system was provided to U.S. Central Command for the war in Iraq. The officials said the system remains in the development stage and will probably be upgraded.

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http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enPage=BlankPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=Zone&enDispWho=InThePress&enZone=InThePress&Date=2/18/04%2011:00%20PM

Israel works to save American lives in Iraq. Earlier, we learned Palestinians were instructing terrorists how to murder Americans in Iraq. Oh, my.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Herschel]

2. Collateral damage is unfortunate

Yet preserving American lives must be paramount.

[mobuto]

3. Blame the US

for trying to save American lives from bombs Iraqis are using to try to kill them. How absurd can this charade get?

If Iraqis don't want to get blown up by roadside bombs, maybe they should think about other hobbies than the building of such.

[ex_jew]

5. And if Americans don't want to get blown up, perhaps they

should avoid invading other countries. Having done so, they are responsible for ALL the carnage, in my mind.

I'm sure you're aware that the Iraqis blown up by the Israeli machine are probably not the ones who planted the bombs in the first place. Their only crime was what - I don't know.

[mobuto]

9. So any tactic is justified?

Are you serious? Do you really believe that Iraqis bear no responsibility for their own actions?

I'm sure you're aware that the Iraqis blown up by the Israeli machine .

And that's where you get it wrong. The Iraqis aren't being blown up by the Israeli machine, they're getting blown up by Iraqi roadside bombs. In many parts of the country, the insurgents are harbored and supported by the population. As the insurgents start to kill their own people, maybe this support will ebb.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mobuto]

8. You're right

The Bush Administration lied to the American people about the reasons for war, and it deserves to be voted out of office as a result.

But the righteous indignation here is not mine. Our soldiers - who are blameless in all of this - are being attacked by guerillas who use roadside bombs. The troops are using whatever tools they can to defend themselves. That innocents are being hurt by the roadside bombs is not their fault, nor should it be portrayed as such; it is the fault exclusively of those who put the bombs there in the first place.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

10. it's all in how you kick it Mo, thanks for responding

You are saying the same as above, but different. Your intended meaning comes across much better.

Sorry for going a little snake.

two points:

"Our soldiers - who are blameless in all of this" - we will never agree on blameless soldiers. It's a distinction I can not make. It has not served your people well.

"it is the fault exclusively of those who put the bombs there in the first place." - simple causation, to hold americans blameless in all of this....

sorry I can't buy it...and I can admit it is a bit hypocritical, on my part, and maybe you will see you are the same, but from another perspective.

Many don't want to give the palestinians a free pass for the actions of the plo or hamas.

Many don't want to give americans a free pass for the actions of the white house.

See the similarities?

Bill

[mobuto]

11. Nope, I don't see the similarities

And ordinary Palestinians are no more responsible for the actions of Arafat than I am of Bush's actions. Likewise, American soldiers are not to be blamed for the decision to go to war in Iraq. They are responsible, however, for their actions there. Just as Iraqi insurgents are responsible for their actions.

And you're not going to blame Americans when Iraqis put explosives in their own neighborhoods and are then surprised to find that they explode at a time other than that of their choosing.

Sorry.

It has not served your people well.

I'm sorry?

simple causation, to hold americans blameless in all of this....

No simple fallacy on your part to hold Iraqis blameless for their own actions. If you put a bomb in a residential neighborhood and it explodes, that's your fault not anybody else's. Not American soldiers' fault, not mine, and not even George Bush's.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

12. a bit more

"ordinary Palestinians are no more responsible for the actions of Arafat than I am of Bush's actions."

we agree on this. The tough area is the responsibility of the collective. What palestinians, as a whole, allow in their name. What americans, as a whole, allow in their name. What Iraqi's, as a whole, allow in their name. What Israeli's, as a whole, allow in their name. The distinction for me is who is in a better position to control the 'powers that be'.


"Likewise, American soldiers are not to be blamed for the decision to go to war in Iraq. They are responsible, however, for their actions there."

this is the slippery slope. when do they question orders? To ship out, to not harm civilians, to not destroy civilian infrastructure, artifacts....I relate this to the german soldier and when he was to question orders...more should have. "It has not served your people well." that is what this statement related to. The willingness to hold soldiers above blame, as following orders.


"If you put a bomb in a residential neighborhood and it explodes, that's your fault not anybody else's. Not American soldiers' fault, not mine, and not even George Bush's.

We just don't agree on this. No american invasion, no roadside bombs. That is the causation I speak to.

Bill

[mobuto]

13. Nope

We just don't agree on this. No american invasion, no roadside bombs. That is the causation I speak to.


Am I wrong? You don't seem to be placing any responsibility on the Iraqis. They could be practicing genocidal cannibalism and it still would be our fault.

I'm sorry, you put a bomb in a residential community, it goes boom, that's your fault. Nobody else's.

You can make a larger point about who created the chaotic situation in Iraq - that would be George Bush - but specific responsibility for the roadside blast and its victims lie only with the Iraqi insurgents.

End of story.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

14. we are both right, are we not?

"Am I wrong? You don't seem to be placing any responsibility on the Iraqis."

Sorry, I have not mentioned the Iraqi's. Sure they share in the violence and responsibility.

I am assuming this is your response to the responsibility of Americans

"You can make a larger point about who created the chaotic situation in Iraq - that would be George Bush -"

That is what I was doing - expanding the scope - the bombs do not occur in a vacuum - as well George Bush did not do this on his own. That is a rationalization.

As discussed, we disagree to what extent americans/soldiers are to blame for this by their acquiescence to his wishes. Americans had the political/legal abilities to confront him when he stole the election.

Sorry, but I do hold americans to a higher standard than Iraqi's BECAUSE of the freedoms and liberties they enjoy. They chose not to practice them. This is more than bush's fault.

Therefore the buck (suffering because the actions of your government) gets passed to others and americans in turn chastize them for their acts violence.

IMHO, you believed because you wanted to believe. To say americans were lied to is a cop out. You knew what kind of man bush was.


Now, being stereotypically Canadian here.

I don't think either of us can claim the authoritative answer on this.

Bill

[Scurrilous]

4. We learned nothing of the sort.

Earlier, we learned Palestinians were instructing terrorists how to murder Americans in Iraq. Oh, my.

Earlier, you posted an article stating that an unnamed Iraqi source claimed that Palestinians were instructing Iraqis how to kill American troops. The article offered no evidence, just opinion. The only thing we learned from that was that some people have the propensity to make baseless self-serving allegations on the flimsiest of proof.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

6. Sadly, this is an accepted practice in this forum.

Post some 'innuendo' or 'analogy', then it becomes a standard 'factual' talking point - 'earlier we learned', 'can you believe someone said'

Now it's my turn, by reading the stage notes provided, to 'wonder' aloud, 'what is the true meaning behind such a statement'

and the wheel turns

[kerryin04]

15. Palestinians Rally for U.S. Convoy Bombing Suspects

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20040220/wl_nm/mideast_militants_usa_dc

GAZA (Reuters) - Thousands of Palestinians took to the streets in Gaza
City on Friday to urge President Yasser Arafat to
free four militants who are on trial for the killing of three U.S.
security guards last October.

Dozens of armed and masked activists of the militant Popular
Resistance Committees (PRC) were among those who marched to Gaza's
main prison where the suspects are being held in custody.

Demonstrators accused the Palestinian Authority of
bowing to pressure from the United States and Israel in holding the men.

[mobuto]

17. Thanks

and welcome to the D.U., Kerry in '04.

[Comadreja]

16. Compassionate Zionist?

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."

- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, later Prime Minister of Israel, in a speech to students in 1989.