French protests greet Israeli president

[dArKeR]

Several hundred people have protested in Paris against Israel's barrier across the West Bank, in a demonstration to mark the start of a state visit to France by Israeli President Moshe Katzav. 

The protest late on Monday was supported by more than a dozen political parties and associations, including the Greens, the Human Rights' League, the Movement against Racism and for Friendship Between Peoples, the France-Palestine Solidarity movement and the Coordination for Appeals for a Just Peace in the Middle East. 

Protesters unfurled banners demanding: "Stop Israeli state terrorism" and "Soldiers, settlers, go home". 

"State of Israel, criminal state. We want sanctions", "Down with the wall, down with the occupation" and "Down with the ghettos", the protesters chanted. 

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/AB050F54-CBA8-46AA-BDB9-06EA43141BC2.htm

My French friend sent me this story with his comment, 'The U.S.A is the only democracy left that still takes a positive view towards Israel.'

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

1. re: your friends comment

'The U.S.A is the only democracy left that still takes a positive view towards Israel.'

I'm not sure that is the case in regards to the Canadian government position.

It's actually kinda hard to tell sometimes. It is similar to the DU I/P issue management strategy (which this is not a criticism of). That being, keep it off the radar because it is a no win situation for anyone who takes on the issue.

Damned if you do...

B

[_Jumper_]

3. Canada

More Canadians are pro-Palestinian than pro-Israel, although a pluarlity is neutral. The government tries to be balanced so it can satisfy its Muslim and Jewish populations, which constitute 2% and 1% respectively of the Canadian population.

America is indeed the only country that prefers Israel over the Palestinians, although even here a pluarlity are neutral.

[Flagg]

2. I'm looking forward to the next Jerusalem post headilne

French protests greet Israeli president : anti semitism on the rise in France, the French are nothing but a bunch of Jew hating surrender monkeys

oh wait that's from SNL

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

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[Muddleoftheroad]

6. Not all

But it is clear that France has issues with ANY minority that won't just fit in. The new law against religious clothing in schools is proof of that.

So, you claim that the enlightened Muslim French youth attack French Jews because of Israel?

I do question the actions of the Sharon government. Why do they, for example, have ANYTHING to do with the PA at this point? Why don't they break off all relations?

As for the exodus of French Jews, the world is not ideal for Jews anywhere. Of course, they could go to Israel, but the Palestinians don't make that a safe choice either.

Actually, if the French go through with this stupid ass religious law, I WILL boycott French products and will urge others to do the same.

As for praise in a speech, well, diplomacy is not always the language of honesty.

As for your anti-Israel comment -- "Israel is a pretty insignificant country who causes a lot of trouble and doesn't contribute much to the world." You show your true colors. Thanks.

I will stop accusing France when they stop deserving it.

[mobuto]

7. Why will you boycott France?

I don't understand.


But it is clear that France has issues with ANY minority that won't just fit in. The new law against religious clothing in schools is proof of that.


No the new law is an attempted to solution to a recognized problem - that people are discriminated against because of appearance. Jews in much of the United States are not normally discriminated against largely because we don't look different. Orthodox and Hasidic communities are rare and fairly insular and are far less visible than assimilated reform, conservative and reconstructionist Jews. Clothing is a barrier to cross-cultural dialogue and it helps to foster prejudice.

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. It is discrimination

And, not to distract the thread, but if they stick to their guns and do this, I will boycott them.

How we dress, how we worship are OUR choices, not the state's.

[mobuto]

13. Not in school it isn't

France has not had a problem with religious freedom. It has had a problem with integration, and overt religious distinctions are a reason for that. How you dress and worship at home or on the street are one issue. But in school the government is in charge.

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. Integration

I think you mean assimilation, just like the Borg. Become French or else. No thanks. And I hope that's what many say to them.

[mobuto]

16. Depends what you mean by assimilation

American Jews are, for the most part, assimilated into American culture. That doesn't mean that American Jews have surrendered their religion or cultural identity, but it does mean that they and the wider community have found ways to live and work together.

Will French Muslims have to adopt some French ways? Well of course, they're in France. But that doesn't mean they lose their identity, and it also means that they will be in a position to influence French culture themselves.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

17. melting pot vs. multiculturalism

the american 'melting-pot' vision is the same as what some rail against france for.

Canadian multiculturalism (celebrating the differences in cultures) is not without its faults as well. ie: sporting events - team canada, in toronto, will have a soccer match against yugoslavia - who will have more rooting fans?

Here is a tough one - the decision to allow other head dress for Canadian Mounted Police. Religious head dress is allowed.

It's a tough issue - but to use it as 'proof' of bigotry or racism...people should look in the mirror of their own nations.

B

[mobuto]

20. The difference is apparent

Canada, like the US, is a nation of immigrants. Canada's approach has been multicultural - I've heard it described as a salad bowl, rather than a melting pot - but it has still succesfully managed to absord immigrants from all over the world.

France has not traditionally been a nation of immigrants, and it has not done well so far in absorbing those who have come. Something isn't working. This law is an attempt to correct that, in part.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

21. I agree

I find it funny at times the arrogance of North Americans.

Because 'old europe' is not the same as the west....they don't do as good a job as us.

Its easy to basically run away (yes, driven in many cases but non the less), start from scratch with the key learnings from 'old europe' then thumb your nose at the rest of the world for not being as 'modern' in their methods as NA.

This is similar, imo, to comparing Israel with other ME nations. Starting from scratch has many advantages.

B

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. Why?

Why will they have to adopt some French ways?

Until now, it hadn't been a law requiring them to do so.

[mobuto]

19. Why?

Because they're in France. If they don't want to interact with the French, they can return to their home countries.

Again I'm not saying that they have to or should surrender their identity or culture. Not at all. I am a strong proponent of multi-culturalism.

But the fact is, you have to interact with the world you're in if you want to do well. Segregation is never a recipe for success. And that's what the issue is.

Until now, it hadn't been a law requiring them to do so.

True. And the consequence is that French Muslims have done very poorly in France. They have been the subject of discrimination, both imposed on them by a less-than-friendly society and imposed upon them by themselves in the form of self-segregation. There are no Muslim deputies in the National Assembly, despite the fact that Muslims compose a huge percentage of the population. There are few who have succeeded in academia or business. Few in government. And none of this has been codified. Maybe the problem is that the French government's approach to the ethnic/cultural/religious divide has been to ignore it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

22. Interacting and adopting are different

I live in a rural area. I interact a lot. I have not adopted the ways of my neighbors. I don't farm. I don't raise critters. I don't eat grits. (Yikes!) Yet I am now a Virginian.

If Muslims have done poorly, then France should consider other laws to HELP not hinder Muslim actions.

[mobuto]

23. Good for you

I'm not much a fan of grits myself. And there's no reason French Muslims should ever give up couscous for gratin dauphinois.

But that isn't the issue. You speak the same language as your neighbors (even if they say y'all more), and you've clearly got some base of economic support even if you don't farm. You're involved in a larger community.

French Muslims aren't. They have not been able in most cases to rise above the bottom rung of the employment ladder or in many cases to take full advantage of the French educational system.

If Muslims have done poorly, then France should consider other laws to HELP not hinder Muslim actions.

The law in question is designed to reduce the impact of discrimination in the classroom, which should help Muslims succeed. There are plenty of other proposals in question, including to set up an American-style system of Affirmative Action. But something has to be done, because the present system - where the French government simply pretends that race and religion do not exist - isn't working.

[Flagg]

8. France is a secular country opposed to Israel

where religion is the key element to become a citizen
Deal with it.


"Israel is a pretty insignificant country who causes a lot of trouble and doesn't contribute much to the world." You show your true colors. Thank''

Unless you can prove otherwise, this is the truth, isn't it ?.
Truth hurts doesn't it ?

"Actually, if the French go through with this stupid ass religious law, I WILL boycott French products and will urge others to do the same."

It's been tried before (remember freedom fries and all that?)
It didn't work but you can always give it a shot





"So, you claim that the enlightened Muslim French youth attack French Jews because of Israel?"

it's kind of a given really . And obviously if they're stupid enough to do that, they're not that "enlightened" ,putting words in my mouth here muddle.




Millions of people throughout the world will stop accusing Israel when they stop deserving it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

10. France is taking bigoted actions against minorities, deal with it

Truth hurts doesn't it?

And yes, I will try it. There IS a lot of anti-French sentiment to draw upon after all.

[Flagg]

11. go ahead and let me know how that works out for you

"France is taking bigoted actions against minorities, deal with it"

and Israel's building a a wall of shame (is that bigoted ?)
nobody's perfect

[Muddleoftheroad]

12. Israel is building a peace fence

Designed to separate two groups that are fighting each other.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. There's nothing peaceful about that wall...

And it's in no way designed to separate two groups, as a large number of Palestinians will be left on the western side of the barrier, where even though they've lived there all their lives, they'll be treated in a racist manner and have to apply to some sort of military tribunal to remain on their own land. Will Israelis have to do that? Of course not....

And the vast majority of people being affected by the Apartheid Barrier are NOT fighting anyone. Most of them seem to want nothing more than to be left alone on their own land...


Violet...

[GabysPoppy]

14. "Doesn't contribute much to the world." ?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/29/health/main565594.shtml
http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enPage=BlankPage&enDisplay=view&en... ^l232&enZone=health&enVersion=0&
http://www.arutzsheva.org/article.php3?id=1869
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/med/four.html
http://www.bio-itworld.com/archive/files/030503.html
http://www.personalmd.com/news/n0704065344.shtml
http://www.personalmd.com/news/a1999032909.shtml
http://biotech.about.com/library/weekly/aa110499.htm
http://www.nclci.org/News/technology_news.htm
http://www.nbc10.com/health/2053811/detail.html

[Forkboy]

25. Let me take this rare opportunity to agree with you

Israel is a major player in medicine and technology and have brought many important things to this world.Anyone thinking otherwise needs to rethink that position.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

26. Lets make it a trifecta (sp?)

I certainly agree

B

[mobuto]

24. Ok

1. Are you saying that ethnic French people are immune to anti-Semitism? Or that there hasn't been a resurgence in anti-Semitism among the ethnically French? You do say you live in France, right?

2.No offense but we don't spend our entire existence ranting against Israel Actually we don't think about you much at all.

Really? I read Le Monde daily. I watch TV5 and France 2. And you're absolutely right. Israel gets virtually no coverage in French media. The Palestinians, however, get rather extraordinary coverage.

Israel is a pretty insignificant country who causes a lot of trouble and doesn't contribute much to the world.

This is a joke, right? Can we apply this standard to other countries? Iraq, Vietnam, these are little, insignificant countries, no?

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mobuto]

28. Except

the French are as immune to anti-semtism as the Spaniards, German, Irish, American, Chinese, Brazilian, Mongolian...


Speaking personally, as a French Jew, I can say from my own experience that there seems to be more anti-Semitism among the ethnically French in France than there is among Americans, at least in my part of America. I'm not talking about "let build gas-chambers" anti-Semitism, but casual prejudices and off-hand remarks.

I can't speak intelligently about Irish, Chinese, Brazilian or Mongolian anti-Semitism. Historically, I think you'd have to agree that the Spanish and Germans have excelled at the sport, but I haven't spent enough time in either of those countries to comment intelligently there either.

the French don't have a jew-hating gene as some Israeli pundits imply

I'm neither Israeli nor a pundit, nor do I play one on TV.

I'm not sure what you mean ethnically French ?
France is a multi ethnic society.
There are very few "pure French", you know from Gaul

I meant to refer to people whose families have been in France for more than two or three generations. I'm not talking about Vercingetorix.

Israel gets as much coverage as Palestine. Maybe you should watch TF1, France 3,Arte (franco-german network), read Libération, le Midi libre etc..

I do sometimes as well. I also subscribe to L'Express. And no, French media covers the Palestinians a lot more than it covers Israel.

you can't talk about one without talking about the other
maybe you meant that Israel was shown in a more negative light than the Palestians which I admit can be argued.

Well that's what I meant, but more than that, they show what they consider to be life as a Palestinian, but never what it is to be Israeli facing Palestinian terrorism.

this the truth
nobody would talk about Israel much if it wasn't for the Isreal/ Palestinian conflict ,would they ?


That's a misleading question. It implies that any news outlet in America would cover any foreign country if it weren't for war and conflict. They don't.

But if you think Israel would receive less coverage than say, France, you're wrong. We'd hear about neither equally.

[Comadreja]

29. Ingersoll to Israel:

The true civilization is where every man gives to every other every right that he claims for himself: Robert Ingersoll