Jewish Arafat?

[Herschel]

Yasser Arafat has Jewish ancestry, according to a PLO official´s new book. Yedioth Aharonoth on Tuesday quoted "Yasser Arafat and the Zionist Solution for the Palestine Crisis" as claiming that the Palestinian leader´s father was born in the Morroccan village of al-Kidwa and had family links to the large Jewish population there.

cut

http://www.jta.org/brknews.asp?id=96227

Oh, my.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. Your point?

Judaism is a faith, not a heritage. One is not born Jewish, one is raised Jewish. It matters little if he had ancestors that were spiritually Jewish.

[MikeGalos]

2. Not to the PLO or Hamas

or lots of other groups who consider Jews an ethnic identity that you are born into no matter what religion you practice or don't.

[mobuto]

5. Exactly

The only definition of Judaism that matters to me is if Hitler would have considered you a Jew. If you're Jewish enough to have died for being a Jew at Belsen or Treblinka, then you're a Jew. Even if you're mother's not Jewish, even if you identify with and practice another faith.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

7. including other Jews

go figure

[11cents]

6. Um - no

>Judaism is a faith, not a heritage. One is not born Jewish, one is >raised Jewish. It matters little if he had ancestors that were >spiritually Jewish.

Judaism is a practice. Being Jewish is indeed a heritage. I don't practice Judaism, but I am a Jew, having been born so.

With this story, how many lines of descent have been associated with Arafat now? He's really from Jerusalem, he's really from Morocco, he's really from Egypt .... He's REALLY not that interesting, IMHO.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

8. Really?

I could be Jewish tomorrow if I were to convert. I was not born Jewish however. And if I were to convert, I would be killed under Hitler's rules too. Of course, Hitler's rules served only to prevent people from saving themselves by publicly denouncing their religion while privately still practicing. But since when do we take the considerations of a mass-murderer, and possibly the worst human being in history, as law?

Here's the point: It's not like being born Lithuanian or Pakistani. That's an immutable family lineage. It is automatically and unchangeably passed down to every generation in your family. Being Jewish is not the same. Your children would not be considered Jewish - they would be considered whatever they were raised to be, and would be considered that until they chose to change how they identify themselves. Just like you said you're a non-practicing Jew, but still a Jew. Similarly, I am a non-practicing Catholic, but still a Catholic, technically speaking, until I choose to identify myself otherwise. On the other hand, I am Italian-American, and no matter how much I wish I could call myself, say, Belgian, I would not be Belgian unless I moved there. And even then, I and all my children would be Italian-Beligians.

Clear?

[11cents]

9. No, you're just ill-informed

>Your children would not be considered Jewish - they would be
>considered whatever they were raised to be, and would be considered >that until they chose to change how they identify themselves. Just
>like you said you're a non-practicing Jew, but still a Jew.

Yes, they *would* be considered Jewish -- just as I, a child of non-practicing Jews, am considered to be Jew! I am a Jew under Jewish law. I am considered to be a Jew by other Jews. I don't practice Judaism, but I am a Jew. Being a Jew is in fact more like being a member of a nation that it is like being a Catholic or a Baptist. Converting to Judaism isn't just a matter of taking up the practice of a religion; it's also about becoming a member of a people.

I'm afraid you simply don't know what you're talking about here. There's no particular shame in that, but it's something to consider before you spout off on this topic.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

10. I'm afraid I know enough.

Do me a favor. Go to this official Census website listing off the ancestry of Americans in 2000. Census

See "Jewish" on there anywhere? Didn't think so.

Jewish law can impose whatever arbitrary edicts it wishes, but it doesn't apply to anyone outside the Jewish faith. If Judaism wishes to identify Yassir Arafat as a Jew, be my guest. I am certain it has implications if he ever wanted to do anything within the Jewish faith. He is not Jewish, however. Nor is anyone who doesn't wish to be. Regardless of how he, or anyone else, wishes to be affiliated religiously, he immutably will be considered Palestinian, unless the designation of "Palestinian" itself is changed. This is NOT the case for people who identify themselves as Jewish, no matter what Jewish law declares. You or anyone else can feel 100% free to identify yourself as anything you wish. But in a purely technical aspect, it would be incorrect, however, to imply that one is Jewish merely because of geneology. There are no physical, hereditary traits specific and typical of followers of Judaism. There is no genetic connection passed down amongst generations. Period, end of story.

[mobuto]

12. You know not whereof you speak

Do us a favor and stay clear of questions of Jewish law. You may have many strong-suits - this is not one of them. Do not presume to lecture people on subjects on which you are not familiar.

He is not Jewish, however.

Well, he probably isn't under Jewish law either. But even if he were, his own opinions are only relevent so far as he's concerned. Jews will always look on other Jews as Jews, even if they've renounced their faith or worship other gods. There's no such thing as an ex-Jew. There are very good historical reasons for that. Just ask the Marranos.

technical aspect, it would be incorrect, however, to imply that one is Jewish merely because of geneology. There are no physical, hereditary traits specific and typical of followers of Judaism.

The point is that Jewishness is conveyed through family ties, not through evangelism. It has nothing to do with a specific "race" or gene pool and everything to do with what it means to have a Jewish identity. Now you may not be able to understand that, but please respect that this is not your identity and that just because you cannot understand the way a particular culture works doesn't mean its wrong or invalid.

You or anyone else can feel 100% free to identify yourself as anything you wish.

And there you're wrong as well. Joe Sixpack from Peoria can wake up one morning and declare himself Jewish, and yet he's not Jewish. That's not how it works.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

18. ...

To be honest, at this point, I don't even think we're disagreeing all that greatly.

The point is that Jewishness is conveyed through family ties, not through evangelism.

Every religion is conveyed through family ties. Simply because Judaism does not seek to convert people, being born Jewish does not make one permanently Jewish. Like I said before, Judaism can consider someone to be or not be whatever it wishes. I've always understood this, and that's the case for many religions. However, it's an arbitrary title bestowed on an unwilling person, and they are ultimately going to be what they choose to be. In the case of the other, non-religiously affiliated ancestries I speak of, this is not the case, in that person has no choice in how they identify themselves.

I address Joe from Peoria in a different reply, but the point is, he could become Jewish if he were willing to put in the work. I never meant he could literally wake up and say "You know, I think I want to be Jewish today. Okay, that settles it, I'm now officially Jewish!" Of course not. I wouldn't take the person very seriously if he or she were to truly hold their religion so lightly.

By the way, I wouldn't dare presume to know what someone knows or doesn't know. It's quite arrogant.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

19. WOW

"Do us a favor and stay clear of questions of Jewish law."

who's us?


"Jews will always look on other Jews as Jews, even if they've renounced their faith or worship other gods. There's no such thing as an ex-Jew."

according to whom? non-ex-jews?


"It has nothing to do with a specific "race" or gene pool and everything to do with what it means to have a Jewish identity."

See, now you inevitably are playing both sides of the fence. If it has everything to do with a Jewish identity and the 'supposed' Jew does not have this identity and rejects it, they are still Jewish (see your claim above)?

Bill

[meti57b]

13. Jewish law that defines ...

who is a Jew and what it means to be a Jew, came about a few thousand years before the US Census Bureau and doesn't fit conveniently into modern-day categories. Jews are a nationality or tribe, who share tradition, language, origins, history and religion.

It would make more sense if Jews defined "who and what is a US Census Bureau" than if the US Census Bureau defines "who is a Jew".

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

17. That's funny...

Who and what it meant to be Chinese occurred a few thousand years before Judaism was conceived, yet the Census bureau seems to have a pretty good idea how to classify them. Jewish faith DOES have a tradition (just as every other RELIGION does), origins (just as EVERYTHING else does), and history (again, just as EVERYTHING else does). But that doesn't make it a blood heritage that can only be passed down genetically, nor does it make it something one cannot renounce.

[Lurking Dem]

21. Read.

http://www.mazornet.com/genetics/index.asp

http://www.mycweb.com/megillah/jul2000/jewish_genes.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/familylemba.html

http://www.jewishgeneticscenter.org/what/

[tinnypriv]

16. Funnily enough

There was once a debate on this on the Guardian website in the UK, titled "Who is a Jew?"

Quite interesting, except when it ran to about 15,000 replies. :D

[mobuto]

11. No you couldn't

You cannot become Jewish in one day.

Most congregations will do their utmost to persuade you not to convert. You will likely have to study for months, and a Rabbi will (in most traditions) try three times to convince you not to. Judaism is not an evangelical religion, its something you're normally born into. This is not like switching between a Methodist and a Presbyterian church -- to us Jews at least, it means a lot more.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

15. Okay, let's not parse words

Tomorrow, if I so desired, I could start the process of becoming Jewish. And like it or not, I could achieve the status of being Jewish. I didn't mean I could literally just become Jewish overnight and it's really parsing words to think I implied that.

[sushi]

3. If they dig deeper

maybe they'll find the PA's chairman and Israel's PM are related! Wouldn't that be something.

[Jack Rabbit]

4. They are both descendants of Abraham

Neither inherited any of his good points.

[JasonDeter]

20. arafat is of Jewish decent? arafat is a Christian? Wow,

what an all around guy LOL!

[Herschel]

22. Perhaps if Arafat learns he is Jewish

he would attempt to eliminate himself.

[Forkboy]

23. ok,now that was a good one

:)