Broadcaster Can't Call Hamas or Hizballah 'Terrorist Groups'

[drdon326]

http://www.townhall.com/news/politics/200402/FOR20040213c.shtml

Australia's national broadcaster has instructed its staff not to identify Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hizballah as terrorist organizations, because they have not been designated as such by the United Nations.


The instruction comes despite the fact the Australian government has listed Hizballah as a terrorist group, and is likely to add Hamas and Islamic Jihad to the list soon.


The Australian Broadcasting Corporation's head of international operations, John Tulloh, confirmed the policy Friday, in response to emailed queries. An internal memo to ABC staff reportedly reads: "Please be careful with Middle Eastern references. Several recent slip-ups have attracted justified complaints. The ABC follows U.N. guidelines on proscribed groups: Hamas, Hizballah, and Islamic Jihad are not included in the U.N.'s list of terrorist organizations and therefore must not be described as such."

Tulloh declined to elaborate on the "justified complaints," saying that correspondence from ABC listeners and viewers was private.Tulloh's memo reportedly continues to say that while the groups shouldn't be called terrorist, it is appropriate for the ABC to describe "a suicide bombing or similar outrage" as an act of terrorism, and to call a suicide bomber a terrorist.

.....................................................................

apparently,Aussie ABC is spineless....even after bali.

Like I havent heard it before.

[rooboy]

1. The comments at the end of your post...

sum up entirely why I find it hard to express more support for Israel. You don't win friends with such "you're either with us or against us" rhetoric.

[drdon326]

2. OK..

"I find it hard to express more support for Israel. "

Then I'll stop holding my breath.

[Muddleoftheroad]

5. Spineless is as spineless does

It doesn't change it whether we comment or not.

[Violet_Crumble]

55. What's spineless about that?

There's nothing spineless in pointing out that 'yr either with us or against us' attitudes are ridiculous. And when being 'with us' involves supporting everything Israel does without question, it means that everyone else who dares to voice very legitimate criticism at Israel for the occupation and the treatment of Palestinian civilians is 'against us'. Well, if being concerned about ALL civilians and not just one group makes me 'against us', I'd wear that label with pride :)

Violet...

[buckeye1]

3. Kick

[Aidoneus]

4. good

these outlets should not be reduced to propaganda forums for Israel.

[Muddleoftheroad]

6. Yeah, why should they worry about truth anyhow

They are only media after all.

[Aidoneus]

7. the truth *as you see it* is not universal

believe it or not--and I know that this may be difficult to accept and may need a while to sink in--, there might be someone around that doesn't have the same outlook as you and hasbara propagada activists.

And on the side#1, TownHall/CNSNews.. would it kill us to get something at least slightly to the left of Mussolini? :eyes:

And on the side#2, as if the Australian government has any crediblity on such matters.. The lackey who somehow slimed his way into office as head of state (it doesn't say much for Australia) is a big supporter of a campaign that has murdered thousands more in just a couple months' time than Hamas & Hizbullah ever could if given half a century. He even demanded an apology from his critics! Of course, they're rich enough to hire advertising and propaganda firms so that such things are referred to in different terms.

[GabysPoppy]

8. Then, is it my assumption

that you also don't think these groups should be labeled as terrorist organizations?

[drdon326]

9. Is there any other way to read it??

:shrug:

[Aidoneus]

32. I cannot tell you what your own assumption is..

It's a trick question, in a way, because I have no use at all for the distinction. But I can try to answer it anyway, conforming myself to the terms I find illegitimate and propagandistic. No, I don't, for a variety of reasons that have partly to do with the greater context, the game surrounding the use of such terms by certain people, and various other considerations.

[GabysPoppy]

40. Thank you for that non-answer

[Aidoneus]

41. I answered it...

albeit with a fair helping of diversions. Note the sentence that begins with "No, I don't", where I then hint at the reasons.

[Muddleoftheroad]

44. Lots of hinting and vague answers

Are you dodging something?

[Aidoneus]

46. I didn't like the wording of the question

and I clarified the grounds of my opposition, while trying to answer it as best as I could manage given such circumstances. I thought the "No, I don't" sentence was clear enough, wedged in with other remarks as it was..
Any vagueness was in the interest of keeping the replies short tonight, since my longer answers are just dodged and/or ignored anyway.

[Muddleoftheroad]

47. In summary then,

Though you didn't like the wording of the question, you don't consider the despicable trio of Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad to be terrorists. Yeah, that says everything alright.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

56. The question was rather stupid in the first place...

The question was not whether Aidoneus considered those groups to be terrorists, it was whether or not Aidoneus thought they should be listed as terrorist groups. The reason I see it as a ridiculous trick question is because if the answer was no accompanied by an explanation(which it was for those who think there was no answer), it would lead immediately to morphing into a support of terrorism, even though the question didn't even state what list (UN? Australian?)...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'll go on the assumption that it was the Australian list being talked about. In that case, my answer is a resounding no. It's an Australian list for a reason, and that's to list groups that supposedly pose a threat to our national security or that are actually operating here. None of these groups are doing that, which is why I was opposed to Hezbollah being listed. Apart from that, the attempts by the conservative govt to bypass parliament when listing groups was an attempt to give sole power to Phillip Ruddock. If he had his way, every boatload of asylum seekers would be listed as terrorist groups and Parliament wouldn't be able to do anything to stop him. So much for democracy, eh?

Violet...

[forgethell]

10. But what makes their 'truth'

better, or more valid thann our 'truth'. If one viewpoint is as valid as another, and people with viewpoint 'A' are killing people with viewpoint 'B', what 'truth' is there that says they should accept it? And what makes it more valid that the 'truth' that viewpoint B people will kill back?

[Muddleoftheroad]

11. There is some truth in the world

And Hamas, for instance, is a terrorist group. To deny it is to deny the sun or the moon.

[GabysPoppy]

12. But sadly all do not deny it

[drdon326]

13. GP....

Notice how the post in question was edited.

[Aidoneus]

31. Yeah, I added the two "and on the side" remarks

The motive there was half out of laziness:--I had intended to work the points into my original reply, but I got sidetracked, opting instead to tack them onto the end of the 2nd reply so as to avoid making out another reply.

What were you trying to insinuate?

[legin]

14. Blaaaaah

another 'truth' is that anti-Semitism in Europe is NOT approaching 1930's levels, but that has never stoped some people here before.

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. The 1930s

Were a full decade of gradual abuse and repression of Jews. While it is obvious that Europe does not meet anything close to what was happening by 1939, the early '30s are open to debate.

[GabysPoppy]

17. Also remember something else

The whole world turned it's back to the events of the 30's

NEVER AGAIN

[legin]

19. That's right

NEVER AGAIN.

except if they happen to be Muslims that is.

[GabysPoppy]

21. Did you wish to deny my statement?

[Violet_Crumble]

58. Where did you get the idea they were denying it?

For them, as for me, NEVER AGAIN obviously applies to ALL genocide, as it well should. Using the words 'never again' in reference to Europe specifically overlooks the genocide of Muslims in Bosnia....

Violet...

[legin]

18. That's right

Get the insult out via the largest megaphone possible, and then do all the little qualifications quietly later on.

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. Not qualifications

I think that European anti-Semitism is a huge issue when the top editorial cartoon in England (award winning after all) repeats the blood libel of Jews eating non-Jewish children. Yeah, I'd say that's damn reminiscent of the 1930s.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42545-2004Feb14.html

[number6]

26. Jews and Arabs both being Semites

acts of violence against Jews are increasing and
more discrimination against Arabs, I'd say
anti-semitism is increasing in Europe.

[rabidarab2004]

36. Semitic is a language group

Actually, Jews are semitic. Modern day arab languages are a bastardization of various language groups, but they are mostly hamitic and not semitic.

[legin]

28. Balls

What this crap is about is that Europe isn't towing the line of the right-wing control freaks in israel and the u.s. so it's sling some smears at Europe.

Europe hasn't invaded any countries in the last couple of years, nor is it in the process of stealing someones land at the moment. But somehow we manage to end up being the bad guys, and it's the sheer bloody self-rightousness with which our 'mistakes' are pointed out to us is what really pisses me off.

To quote a Palestinian historian "The Palestinians aren't the first people in history to have their country taken from them but they are the first to be morally condemned for their reaction to it."

Well I guess I'm feeling a bit of what the Palestinians feel and it explains a lot of things.

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Europe

Yeah, those "right-wing control freaks in israel" don't like European anti-Semitism. I wonder why given how many years that Jews have had to tolerate it.

Europe has not been unscathed the last few years. There's that pesky business in the Balkans that they needed the U.S. to help out on. And last time I checked, Spanish troops and Poles were also in Iraq.

That's just for starters.

So, let me ask you, which country it was that the Palestinians had "taken from them." It certainly shows up in no history books.

[Violet_Crumble]

59. The link didn't lead to the Sharon cartoon...

Me, I'm not prone to passing judgement on things until I've seen them for myself. Something that set the alarm bells off for me was that the cartoon involved Sharon, and there is a tendency for some to label any cartoon the slightest bit critical of that murderous scumbag as being anti-semitic. So, if you've got a link to the cartoon or in fact have actually seen it, feel free to post it and we'll go from there...

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

57. Nope, not open to debate at all...

There is a world of difference between Europe now and the early 1930's. If anyone thinks today's Europe is the same as the early 1930's they need to really read a bit on the period, because they're totally wrong with what they're claiming...

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

60. Why that claim about Europe is very wrong...

The persecution of European Jews in the early 1930's was on a totally different scale than anti-Semitism happening now. To even hint that it's comparable is ludicrous and insulting to those who were victims of Nazi persecution....

To make it easy for you, I've found a timeline for you from a site you should approve of. Feel free to point out how what happened in the early 30's (I'll take that up to 1935) is comparable to Europe now. And please take note that the persecution was a mainstay of Nazi ideology, and that Hitler's rise to power which led to his gaining power in 1932 came on the back of virulent and pathological anti-semitism, which of course anyone knowing of Hitler's rise to power would be aware of...


Chronology of Jewish Persecution: 1933

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

January 30

German Presidsent President Hindenburg appoints Adolf Hitler as Reichs Chancellor (Prime Minister).

February

The weekly publication Der Stürmer, devoted primarily to anti­Semitic propaganda and promoting hatred against the Jews, published since 1923 as the organ of the Nazi party, becomes the official organ of the party in power. The motto of the paper is "The Jews are our misfortune."

February 3

Hitler presents Lebensraum program

February 27

The Reichstag building (German parliament) is burned.

February 28, 1933

Hitler convinced President von Hindenburg to invoke an emergency clause in the Weimar Constitution. the German parliament then passed the Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of the Nation and State. (Reichstage Fire Decree). The decree suspended the civil rights in the German constitution of Nazi opponents. These rights included: freedom of speech, assembly, press and formed the basis for not letting Nazi opponets have judicial procceedings.

March 5

During the last free election in Germany, ostensibly called to obtain a vote of confidence, the Nazi party wins nearly 44 percent of the popular vote, more than twice as many votes as the next closest political party, the Social Democrats, with 18 percent. In a coalition with another right­wing party, Hitler takes full control of Germany.

March 9

Outbreak of rioting against German Jews by members of the S.A. and Stahlhelm (Nationalist ex­servicemen's organization).

March 20

First concentration camp, Dachau, established.

March 23

The Law for Removing the Distress of People and Reich (commonly known as the “Enabling Act”) is passed, giving the chancellor (Hitler) legislative authority.

April 1

A boycott of all Jewish shops in Germany instigated by the S.A. This action was also directed against Jewish physicians and lawyers. Jewish students were forbidden to attend schools and universities.

April 7

Law “for the re­creation of civil service professionalism.” Removal of many Jewish civil service employees. Exception made for front­line veterans of World War I.

April 11

Decree issued defining a non-Aryan as “anyone descended from non-Aryan, especially Jewish, parents or grandparents. One parent or grandparent classifies the descendant as non-Aryan...especially if one parent or grandparent was of the Jewish faith.”

April 21

Jewish ritual slaughter banned.

April 25

School quota system.

April 26

Formation of the Gestapo.

May 2

Dissolution of German trade unions

May 10

Burning of books written by Jews and opponents of Nazism.

June

Dachau concentration camp opens.

July 14

Law pertaining to the revocation of naturalization and cancellation of German citizenship. Primarily aimed at Jews naturalized since 1918 from the formerly Eastern German territories.

July 14

Nazi party declared only party in Germany.

July 14

Forced sterilization

July 20

Nazi government signs Reich concordat with the Vatican.

August 20

American Jewish Congress declares boycott against Nazi Germany.

August 25

Ha'avara agreement.

September 13

Race theory in German schools.

September 17

Reich representation of German Jews established.

September 22

Reich's Culture Ministry Law: Exclusion of Jewish writers and artists.

October 4

Editor Law: Exclusion of Jewish editors.

October 14

Germany quits League of Nations.

October 24

Nazis pass a law against “Habitual and Dangerous Criminals” that justifies placing the homeless, beggars, unemployed and alcoholics in concentration camps.

Chronology of Jewish Persecution: 1934

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

January 24

Jews are banned from the German Labor Front.

January 26

German-Polish non-Aggression Pact.

May 17

Jews no longer are entitled to health insurance.

June 30

The "Night of the Long Knives" occurs when Hitler's rivals in the SA (storm trooper) leadership are murdered.

July 25

Nazi Putsch in Austria fails.

August 2

President Hindenburg dies. Offices of President and Chancellor combined. Hitler becomes sole leader (Fuhrer) and Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces.

Octover 1

Hitler orders expansion of the army, navy and the creation of the air force, breaking the Treaty of Versailles.

October 7, 1934

The Jehovah's Witnesses in Germany declare their political neutrality. Also affirm defiance of Nazi restrictions on the practice of their religion.

Chronology of Jewish Persecution: 1935

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

January 13

Germany reclaims Saar region

February 10

Prohibition of gatherings urging Jews to remain in Germany

March 16

Military conscription in Germany

April 1, 1935

The Jehovah's Witness organization is banned because they refuse to swear allegiance to the state.

May 21

Defense Law: “Aryan heritage” as a prerequisite for military duty. During the summer “Jews Not Wanted” posters start to appear on restaurants, shops, and on village entrance signs.

June 22

"Jews Not Welcome" signs temporarily removed.

June 28

Paragraphs 175 and 175a of the criminal code are revised to criminalize all homosexual acts between men.

September 15

National Day of the NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers Party). Parliament passed, during a special session, the anti-Semitic “Nuremberg Laws,” the “National Citizens Law,” and the “Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honor.” These laws were the basis for the exclusion of Jews from all public business life and for the reclassification of the political rights of Jewish citizens.

Swastika becomes the offical German flag.

October 30

Italy attacks Ethiopia.

November 14

First decree pertaining the “National Citizens Law”: Jews denied voting rights and forbidden to hold public office. Discharge of all Jewish civil service employees, including World War I front line veterans. Definition of “Jew.”

First decree pertaining to the "Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honor": Prohibition against the marriage of Jews to non­Jews. Work possibilities for Jews narrowed to just a few professions. Jewish children were prohibited from using the same playgrounds as other children and from utilizing the same locker rooms.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/chron.html


There's much more than that available from offline sources, but that should be enough to give people an idea why claims that today's Europe is comparable with 1930's (or even early 30's) Europe when it comes to anti-Semitism...

[Aidoneus]

30. I deny the distinction any value or meaning

I do not deny the sun or moon, though I would have preferred to have not seen the former as much as I had today. (that would be a heresy on any normal day, considering how rare it is to find a nice sunny semi-noncoldish day up in the mountains in February, but it was shining twice over in my face for half the day..)

[Muddleoftheroad]

33. You can deny all you want

But they remain terrorist groups.

[Aidoneus]

37. such a statement remains meaningless to me

I can see the writing on the wall:--this conversation will go no further, so forgive me in the event I do not write anything else here.

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. I am unsurprised

It must be difficult to continue and try to defend that which cannot be justified.

[Aidoneus]

39. it's funny..

I think the same of some here several times daily.

I'll have to step back and re-evaluate things, finding myself thinking in such similar (if opposite) terms as you here. I should've known that storm clouds were forming back from that German cannibal thread, but I felt it minor enough to not trouble myself with..

[GabysPoppy]

42. Muddle, I think we have been given more than an answer

No need to inquire any longer nor be surprised

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

45. lol

I do believe they have convinced themselves of something they already believed anyways.

[Aidoneus]

49. the long version of my explanation hasn't resonated before

I know this by the dense and wooden reactions now, so I'll just let them assume whatever they wish.. not worth the effort to explain in greater detail, but the least I can do is be honest with as much of an answer as I can give to the question, even if it goes practically unread and even less understood by those the honesty was directed at.

[Forkboy]

50. I just let people think what they want about me

the important people in my life know who I am and what I believe.What some people on the internet think of me doesn't even register.Least of all this particular section of the internet :)

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[legin]

51. How do you stand on land grabbing ?

Probably against it, except when israel does it but then of course that isn't by definition land grabbing.

How do you stand on invading countries ?
Probably against it, except when bush* does it which of course is defined as bringing 'freedom' (the 'F' word) to oppressed people.

How do you stand on killing loads of people ?
Probably against that too, but of course when bush* and Sharon do it that is regarded as 'unfortunate collateral damage'.

How do stand on running people over with bulldozers ?
Probably not keen on that except when it is some Palie-loving, flag burning peace-nik.

How do feel about peace activists getting their brains blown out ?
They were protesting against israel stupid question really.

If the right-wing became Cultural Relativists it would be an improvement.

[Aidoneus]

52. AHEM

Cultural Relativism:--we're right because we're "we", they're wrong because they're "they". There the discussion ends. :eyes:

[legin]

53. :-) nt

[GabysPoppy]

20. More from Hizbullah

http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl.ram?file=realimpact/memri/shatat.rm

[drdon326]

22. Unbelieveably disgusting.

i'm actually speechless.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[number6]

24. yes I'd call

Hizballah , Hamas, and Islamic Jihad groups that support the
tactic of terrorism, therefore members who aid terrorists
acts should be arrested, my humble opinion ...

[Muddleoftheroad]

25. Members

ALL members of those organizations aid terrorists. They should, WHEN POSSIBLE, be arrested. When it is not readily possible or poses too much risk to IDF forces, they should be eliminated.

[number6]

27. some would say all members of the Klan (KKK)

aid terrorists, but the Klan was prosecuted individual by individual
who broke the law, all Klansmen were not arrested and nobody sent
jet fighters or attack helicopters to fire missiles into cars
and apartment buildings to off one individual Klansmen.

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. However, they were in the same state

Clearly, the territories are different. For Israel to send in troops and arrest members of these groups puts not only the troops at risk, but many more Palestinians at risk as well.

[forgethell]

61. Maybe that's because the Klan

was subject to the jurisdiction of the USA, and could be prosecuted easily. Maybe that was because the Klan was a part of the society, not utterly opposed to it. Maybe it was because in those days the situation had not yet passed beyond criminal justice to war. Maybe it was because the Klan, though evil, never committed the amount of havoc and murder that the Palestinian and Islamic terrorists groups have.

[Violet_Crumble]

54. More conservative attacks on Aunty...

What's new? What'd be new if any of the incessant whining actually had a point to it. These idiots think that if the words TERRORIST don't appear in big, flashing lights whenever the names Hamas, Islamic Jihad or Hezbollah appear, people will think: 'Oh! Thanks for telling us they're TERRORIST groups! We would never have known otherwise, cause we're so friggin' mindless that everything has to be spelt out for us and now we know, we can just sit here and shriek TERRORISTS!! TERRORISTS!! whenever anyone tries to discuss the I/P conflict with us, and never have to think about anything in-depth ever again.' Seriously, ABC viewers generally aren't stupid people and they turn to the ABC news because they get sick of the mindless schlock on the commercial channels...

I could understand the ire if the ABC didn't report suicide bombings as acts of terrorism or suicide bombers as terrorists. But they do, so I don't see what the problem is. As a taxpayer whose taxes go to Aunty, I totally agree with the decision to stick with the UN list, and not use any by the current snivelling, right-wing, government. If you'd read the article, you would have noticed that the law allowing the Australian government to list organisations as terrorist groups had a CIVIL LIBERTIES safeguard put in it at the insistance of the LEFT WING opposition stops the government from placing groups on its list that aren't on the UN list. Sorry, but do you have a problem with that? If you don't, I think you should find out a bit about our current government before even going near a position where you'd support what they tried to do, which was give the Attorney General the power to place groups on the list without going through Parliament....

Violet...