Shame Them for All Eternity

[DuctapeFatwa]

First, never return the body for 'proper burial.' It merely gives those who support that sort of behavior a chance to glorify the bomber in a public funeral parade. Instead, the remains of the bomber should be disposed of in a manner which is forbidden by whatever credo they follow. In the case of a Muslim, wrapping them in a pig's carcass, burying them in unhallowed ground, after 24 hours have passed (maybe call it 'The Cemetery of the Accursed'), and then pouring suet on the soil, is taboo to their beliefs and would be a great disincentive.

And speaking of workers, they too can be employed in the eternal shaming of the homicide bomber. Whenever crossings are closed because of a bombing, billboards should be erected wherever the affected people live and commute saying something like, "Reem Salah Al-Rayashi caused today's closings. She murdered innocent people because she wanted to atone for her adultery."

Going along with this theme, signs should also be erected where there are more stringent security measures. Such a sign might read: "Reem Salah Al-Rayashi, the murdering adulteress, is responsible for your suffering and long wait." Likewise, periodic announcements saying the same thing can be made over loudspeakers for those who fail to read the signs.

At the same time, loudspeaker cars can be dispatched to the bomber's home town, telling the people that any suffering they may undergo to prevent future bombings can be attributed to the bomber. These loudspeaker cars can also announce the original shameful act, which caused the bomber to kill him/herself while murdering innocent people. Even skywriting planes, flying over the bomber's territory, can be employed. It would be like writing their sins on Heaven's window.

http://www.israelnn.com/article.php3?id=3324

[Jim Sagle]

1. Excellent!

:thumbsup:

[Muddleoftheroad]

2. Now this sounds like something I would do

Boy, I am 1,000% behind this. A massive marketing campaign designed to humiliate suicide bombers and their families.

Rock the hell on!!!!

[Gimel]

3. Appropriate dishonor

Creative solutions like this should be implemented.

[Blitz]

4. The U.S. army did something similar to great effect in the Philippines

in 1911. Read about Colonel Alexander Rofers of the 6th Cavalry here.

Now the Russkys have gotten the idea. I hope that it works for them as well as it did for us in the Philippines.

I hope that the U.S. and Israel finally take the gloves off in the fight against religious fanaticism.

[Blitz]

5. Kick

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[JohnLocke]

6. Great idea!

[Muddleoftheroad]

7. It would be interesting to see how some on the other side felt

About this idea.

[plurality]

8. Dragging the corpses of US Servicemen through the streets of Mogadishu

And Saddams humiliation of American POWs didn't do much to weaken our resolve to fight. In fact, as I recall it only made us hate them more, I don't see how it would have any other affect on a group that places a much higher cultural value on honor and dignity. In fact I think it would have exactly the opposite effect that these people think it might.

Of course when your object isn't to actually end the fighting, but to continue it, I could see how it would have the desired effect.

[Blitz]

9. Our will to fight isn't grounded in religious fanaticism

And if you read the link that I posted re: the U.S. in the Philippines in 1911, you'll see that what is being suggested has already been tried with considerable success.

And btw, the Mogadishu example is ill-placed since Clinton withdrew U.S. forces shortly thereafter and encouraged similar behavior from our enemies in the future (since they saw this as an obvious sign of weakness).

[plurality]

15. Phillipines a success!?!

I seriously suggest you reread history on that matter. It required the slaughter of several hundred thousand Phillipinos before anything close to 'success' could be considered, and the actual fighting never fully subsided until the Japanese conquered it in WWII. Then the Japanese Empires defeat left them no more eager for our 'benificent' government since they forced us to grant them independence shortly after.

And while Clinton did withdraw our troops from Mogadishu shortly afterwards, the episode certain did nothing to improve the American view of Islamic peoples.

As your first point, yes our fight isn't ground in religous fanatacism, it's grounded in money. We have no honor in war or anything else for that matter so such insults have little affect on us. But for those few remaining cultures that place importance on honor, shaming them will do nothing to cease their will to fight.

[Blitz]

23. The tactic was a success

We are discussing the tactic, not the campaign, the politics or any of the other ancillary issues that you have raised.

As for Clinton's blunder in Mogadishu, the episode did not improve our view of anybody. It certainly clarified our view of Islamists (though not sufficiently to prevent 9-11, the Cole, etc.).

[plurality]

28. a success if you consider mindless slaughter and endless war a success.

[Blitz]

I'm talking about one specific tactic related to the treatment

of the carcasses of religious fanatics. You are obviously determined to not engage in this conversation and change the subject at every opportunity. The tactic worked. There is reason to believe that it can work again. You have not addressed these central issues and are obviously unwilling or unable to do so.

I hope that the Russians find some success with the tactic and that we learn both from their experience and our own history.

[Name removed]

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[Blitz]

33. Define Islamist for me

Perhaps you have a definition that is different from mine. I have been using the term for a long time and am perfectly comfortable with it.

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[Blitz]

10. Which other side?

Free Republic or Hamas?

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[plurality]

16. they certainly wouldn't argue with some of the 'news' sources...

frequently cited here.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

17. Anyone who would consider

US crimes in the Philippines a success has some serious studying to do. I think you might agree with that.

[plurality]

18. indeed I would

It's funny how everyone thinks we do such good things for all the third world countries we've colonized, but they never bother to ask why there's so many of them that move here after our government decides to involve itself in their affairs.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

19. The obvious answer to that is

that us brown people just can't govern ourselves. Every now and then we need to be invaded and killed a little bit just to remind us.

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[Muddleoftheroad]

24. Which version is that?

I doubt if it's King James...

[plurality]

25. It's obviously the version America was founded on.

Colonization of the 'New World' was a 'Christian' mission.
Annexation of Hawaii was to 'christianize' them.
The war in the Phillipines was supposed to bring 'Democracy and Christianity' to the poor brown heathens.
And we now have our Crusade to bring capitalism and 'Christianity' to those poor heathen sitting on top of all that oil.

[Name removed]

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[thebigidea]

32. yeah, we're only allowed to smear "Islamists"! Christians are ALWAYS good.

[Muddleoftheroad]

39. Islamists

A term that even the Arab media seems to use, is a specifically radical branch of Islam that is actively at war with the West.

Most Muslims like most of any religion (or probably any non-religion) are good people.

[Blitz]

51. You obviously don't know what the word "Islamist" means

I once again urge you to look it up before using it.

[Violet_Crumble]

56. I know what it means...

And I'm pretty sure there's others who also know what it means, but use it in a way that's meant to demonise all Muslims. This tends to happen amongst the general population and the more shrieky parts of the media. I know when most academics use the word, they're aware of its meaning and their audience also knows what it means and that they're using it properly. However, when it comes to some sections of the media and the population, I lose all confidence. That's why I prefer to use the term Islamic Fundamentalist. There's no way it can be abused to include all Muslims, though of course there's some folk out there who think that if someone's a Muslim, that makes them a fundamentalist. I figure unless people are incredibly lazy and can't muster up the energy to type out those extra few keystrokes, their refusal to make a clear distinction between the general religion and the extremists does bring into question their motives for doing so....


Violet...

[Lithos]

54. TheBigIdea

Such a broad remark is slanderous in many ways and is not true. There is NO protection for anyone who coopts religion as a means to achieve a RW or violent agenda are not protected or promoted on this board.

This includes a wide ranging group of entities which have politicized their religion to such an extreme including Hamas, Kahanists, or the RW fundies who are one leg of support for the current resident. One leading marker which helps identify these groups is their lack of willingness to integrate pluralistic beliefs into their respective society, especially as to how it regards differing religions and sects.

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground

[Name removed]

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[Blitz]

27. I was just thinking that I wasn't familiar with that passage

But then, it's been a while since I spent serious time studying the Bible.

[Name removed]

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[Blitz]

22. No

The IDF isn't composed of religious fanatics. Many of the groups that they are fighting against are. That's the whole point.

[DuctapeFatwa]

26. I would also be against wrapping the bodies of settlers in pig carcasses

Do you think doing that would encourage them to leave?

[Blitz]

I know plenty of settlers

By and large they'r not religious fanatics either and do not murder innocents in the hope of receiving a reward in the next life. Judaism just doesn't have that sort of quid-pro-quo.

Keep trying, though.

[thebigidea]

34. so, Judaism is entirely free of religious fanatics?

That's wonderful. How did they manage to escape the extremism that's dominated other religions?

This thread is sickening. Pig carcasses? Rock the hell on? Extremely disturbing stuff.

[Blitz]

36. Judaism is entirely free

of the idea that one will be rewarded with eternal sexual gratification in return for the murder of one's enemies. Entirely free of any such concepts. 100% free of reward for martyrdom concepts or even the concept of martyrdom. Religious "fanatics" come in all forms and they are not equal. The Amish are religious fanatics and yet, somehow, I'm not afraid that they will decide to murder me for my beliefs.

[Name removed]

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[Blitz]

42. That's true

It's nice to see that we have found a point of agreement. In addition, some cultures are better than others, some societies are better than others, some governments are better than others, some nations are better than others. All obvious truisms.

[DuctapeFatwa]

46. I am trying to find out if you think it would be effective. Some settlers

are very religious, or at least they say they are.

The US networks frequently show interviews with settlers whose sincerity I have no reason to doubt.

Do you think that desecrating their bodies would encourage their families to leave the settlements?

[Blitz]

50. I have answered you repeatedly

You do not like the answer so you keep repeating the question. Judaism does not work that way. There is no direct connection between how a body is buried and the afterlife. Islamist fanatics apparently believe that if they are not buried just so, they will not get their eternal reward, complete with 72 virgins. Thus, making a point of not burying them in the way that their particular religion prescribes would be a serious disincentive to murdering innocents in return for an eternal reward. No martyrdom for them. There is no corresponding religious belief in Judaism. What we are discussing is not cruelty for the sake of cruelty or religious desecration for its own sake. We are discussing a specific tactic geared towards discouraging people who have specific beliefs. It would likely work on Islamic fundamentalists but have little if any effect on Buddhists or Presbyterians or other groups that do not have the same beliefs, no matter how devout they are in their own faiths. It is simply not transferrable to other groups who do not share in those beliefs or have corresponding beliefs of their own.

I hope that is now 100% clear.

[Name removed]

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[DuctapeFatwa]

55. My question is not about religious beliefs

In case you are unaware, the idea that someone will go to hell because of what someone else does to their body after their death is not doctrinally sound, and anyone who believes thus is mistaken.

To return to my question, I am not asking about religious beliefs, but the practice of desecrating the bodies of dead people as a deterrent to their family and friends doing what you want.

Regardless of whatever beliefs the deceased may have had, it is unlikely that he will be aware of anything you do after his death. His family and friends, however, will be, and regardless of their religious beliefs, or whether you or I agree with their politics or their methods, do you believe that desecrating the bodies of settlers would be likely to result in their loved ones departing from the settlements, or in the case of IDF gunmen, would it be likely to result in their comrades laying down their arms?

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[JohnLocke]

49. The GrovelBot, like the Mars Rover...

...Lands on toxic territory. Only the bravest of robots can see through the thick wildfire of flaming here.

[tinnypriv]

43. Or we can go with straight emotional terror

i.e. the IDF can wear a nice inscription like this:

"Every Arab mother should know that the fate of her children is in our hands"¹

Maybe that'll work. Doesn't seem to have done the trick yet, but give it time! :eyes:

-----

1. Kol Israel, 4 Feb 2004, cited by Ha'aretz (Hebrew)

[Blitz]

44. Have they tried that yet

Or are you just making things up when you write "Doesn't seem to have done the trick yet?"

[tinnypriv]

45. Sure

The commander of the main Givati battlion (in Rafah) had to order his troops not to wear jumpers brought by them with that inscription any more.

I gave you the citation. You can check it if you like.

[Blitz]

47. I tried to check your cite

and found nothing but, assuming it is as you say, it demonstrates that the Israeli army has full control of their troops and considerable compassion for the Palestinians, since they didn't allow even this mild action. Frankly, the pig skin idea is better since it directly targets perpetrators of terror and rather than the population at large. I would not return so much as a toenail of a homicide bomber or other deceased terrorist to his family, friends or supporters. Not so much as a hair would be buried in keeping with the requirements for entry into heaven and the disposal of the carcass should be broadcast on PA television and otherwise publicized among all of the murderers supporters, admirers and compatriots.

I am, however, against frightening the innocent and blameless.

[tinnypriv]

53. "mild"

So, reversing the situation, I assume if Arab troops were occupying Tel Aviv, you'd say that wearing jerseys with this inscription:

"Every Jewish mother should know the fate of her children is in our hands"

...would be mild?

Fair enough. I'd say horrendous racism in both cases, but that is just my opinion.

As for the accuracy, you can assume it is "as I say", and if you want a screenshot of the afternoon update of Ha'aretz news flash (Hebrew only, the english had no sign of it), just ask.

As for "full control", to name one (extremely minor) example, I can cite a credible report from an Israeli peace group that IDF troops go around smashing up random Palestinian taxi windows in "retaliation" for bombings in Israel if you like.

Of course, that bombing happened to be a criminal one (by an Israeli), and nothing to do with the Palestinians, though that is hardly a comfort to the Palestinians involved.

Repeat: minor example.

Others examples (well known to almost anybody involved in these issues) could be forcing Palestinians to cross checkpoints "out of sight", forcing them to jump over walls, lick the dirt, etc.

One last example: credible Israeli publications (in this case Kol Ha'ir) report that complaints by Palestinians against the border police (as a result of unprovoked beatings with clubs) can be washed away if those responsible simply do extra shifts at the checkpoints.

Sure, lots of control. At least I hope not, or else the entire IDF and security apparatus is collectively responsible.