Suicide Bombings are Legitimate Even if Children Are Killed

[drdon326]

Full title could not fit:
Egyptian Government Daily: Suicide Bombings are Legitimate Even if Children Are Killed

http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP65804

An editorial in the Egyptian government daily Al-Masaa praised suicide/martyrdom operations, and called on Palestinian organizations to not publish the names of the bombers so that their families' houses would not be demolished. The article focuses primarily on female suicide bombers, following the debate in the Arab media over Hamas's dispatching of Reem Al-Riyashi, a mother of two, to carry out the January 14, 2004 bombing in Gaza. The following is the translation of the editorial : <1>

"We ask again, why do the various Palestinian organizations insist on publishing the name of everyone who carries out a martyrdom operation against the Zionist entity?

"We have no argument regarding the question of the legitimacy of these operations, because they are considered a powerful weapon used by the Palestinians against an enemy with no morality or religion, who has deadly weapons prohibited by international law, that is not deterred from using them against the defenseless Palestinian people.

"Even if during civilians or children are killed – the blame does not fall upon the Palestinians, but on those who forced them to turn to this modus operandi."

.....................................................................

hmmm... more fun to read...

killing kids is ok.....
killing innocents is ok...
blame the victim.....the "zionist entity"

from the egyptian govt daily......juuuuust lovely.

[Muddleoftheroad]

1. Just in case

Anybody really doubts what sort of monstrous bastards Israel is dealing with in its neck of the woods. The insanely radical Islamists are a threat to all of us. It's about time we treated them as such.

[sushi]

26. What do you want to do, Muddle?

Invade Egypt too?

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. Why should we invade

We should simply NOT give them money and do what we can to encourage democracy and freedom in that nation and other Arab dictatorships.

[plurality]

33. but don't you know, freedom's what our foreign aid is for

Remember, the United States is the shining beacon of democracy and our government only gives money to other nations so that their peoples may enjoy freedom. Just look at how much good our money has done in Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Colombia, Haiti, Indonesia, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Ukraine, Liberia, Azerbijan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Algeria, Thailand...

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. Oh, we could spend all day debating back and forth

About good and bad the U.S. has done. It would get us nowhere.

So, let's stay on the topic. Egypt needs to be punished for this sort of crap. Turn off the money spigot.

[plurality]

53. no argument there.

of course something tells me that this will probably be the end of our common ground on the subject :)

[sushi]

34. If you stop giving them money

how do you propose to encourage democracy and freedom? Sending books in English to educate them? A big chunk of the masses only speak Arabic, and are poorly educated or illiterate.

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. Oh, you can give money

Just not to the Egyptian government.

You can set up aid that goes to educate and help. But you don't aid a government that is openly working against you.

[sushi]

61. Aid usually goes

through the government, Muddle. I doubt you can deal directly with organizations without government approval.

[Muddleoftheroad]

67. My point was that you could set up aid agencies

And ignore the Egyptian leadership.

[sushi]

69. You can't bypass a government

Even aid agencies need government approval.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

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[Blitz]

63. Welcome to DU

It's not "funny how no one will bring up what happened . . ." It's funny that someone will assume that a topic that has been discussed to death is completely new just because they haven't seen the discussion. May I suggest that you take a look around the site before making such assumptions in the future. Also, a more liberal approach to the shift key would make your posts easier to read. As it is, it's hard to see where one sentence fragment ends and another begins.

[drdon326]

64. Hmmmm...

"and ffor people that think israel is right, why are you not in israel right now."

couldnt have said it any better.

[Gimel]

65. Iran doesn't feel so friendly to the US

So ask the Iranians. Maybe they still resent the downed Iranian airliner.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5260/july88crash.html

[Gimel]

2. Our great Egyptian allies

Direct from the Government Daily News.

[drdon326]

8. Funny...

how no one calls for cutting off the ....

$ 2,000,000,000 in aid from the US.

[plurality]

9. i'll join in on that

Mubarak and crew in Egypt are scum. They're scum because that's what we need them to be because otherwise the people of Egypt would be free and then the global economic order wouldn't be free to exploit Egypt. Same as the governments of Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan.

And yes the government of Egypt does teach it's people to hate Israel and the US, and Israel and US want it that way, because if they didn't teach them to hate Israel and the US, the people might focus their hate on Mubarak and then Mubarak and Israel and the US wouldn't be very happy.

[drdon326]

13. Excuse me ????

"Mubarak and crew in Egypt are scum."


i know some people who would give you an argument
over that.

[plurality]

14. what?

You disagree with me that Mubarak and his crew of CIA trained torture squads are scum?

[drdon326]

16. ME !?!?....no way.

i agree with you on that...i just said some people.

[plurality]

17. didn't think so, but the surprise made me wonder

Just because I criticize Israel doesn't mean I have any great love for any of the other major players in the Middle East. I want freedom and better lives for all the worlds people, and I will call out any that I think get in the way of the world's people achieving those goals.

And have DU members expressed support for Mubarak in the past?

[drdon326]

18. Hey...i'm with you...

i want freedom and democracy in the middle east....and right now
there is only one democracy in the ME, ISRAEL.

i'VE SEEN Some Murbarak supporters here....cant name names.

[plurality]

19. perhaps the problem here is too many of us focus on the differences

instead of the similarities. I criticize the US more than I criticize Israel but I criticize them both for the same reasons, I expect more form them. Is it unfair, it could be, but not very many other countries hold themselves up as beacons of democracy and freedom either. Just think of it as trying to wipe up the dirt that gathers on the beacons from time to time. And now for something completely different.

I favor the bi-national solution to the ME problem not because I hate Israel or any other reason that might appear more sinister as has been implied before (not saying by you) but because I seriously believe it's the only way the killing will stop. People have been trying the two-state solution for 60 years now and all it's accomplished is 60 years of death, for all sides. I also think that the resolution to this problem and the removal of the corporatistas from power in the US is the only way that the other people in the Middle East will have the chance at freedom as well.

Playing the blame game and which side is more evil, while emotionally satisfing (I know I engage in it myself) accomplishes nothing, sometimes it's better to acknowledge our own faults and try and find common ground. That's why I think the bi-national state could lead to peace, it gives both sides the chance to do this.

Of course I've probably already gone and done it now haven't I?

[Muddleoftheroad]

20. What you favor would mean the destruction of Israel

Fortunately, supporting it is much like rooting for the Tooth Fairy. Your dreams don't make it likely to happen.

[plurality]

22. yes how fortunate we can have war forever and ever

:eyes:

[drdon326]

23. Some people have an answer....

http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=56867

[plurality]

29. is this also the answer?

“Most Jews believe in a two-state solution,” answered Shoebat, “I do not believe in this. A Palestinian state will concoct its own rules and laws to continue the killing of Jews.” He suggested instead that Israel, “Wake up and smell the Hummus. We must return to the status quo – the occupation. There were jobs, people went to work and supported their families, and whoever got involved with terrorism was exiled or imprisoned – like any modern country in the world. I think Israel should stand strong and fight – dismantle Hamas and take away all the weapons, the way it used to be. The introduction of weapons into Palestinian society by Israel was a disaster and they must be confiscated.”

It sounds like close to what could be acceptable, but of course you would have to insure that these people have political rights, which would mean the right to vote, etc. This can be accomplished while maintianing Israel's status as a safe have for Jews. First, the government would be federal between what is currently Israel and what is currently the territories. The constitution can have guarantees for Jews seeking asylum and a federal system would keep one side from being able to subjugate the other.

Otherwise the only other way would be for all Muslims to convert to Judaism, which I don't see happening, and wouldn't encourage. I don't think his thoughts on Islam, as conceived, are correct. I won't deny that there are instances where Muslims are taught hate, but I don't think that is a charge any religion can lay solely at their feet.

[bluesoul]

44. Those are my thoughts about Sharon

as well. I would apply the same word.

[Jim Sagle]

25. And why is that? Fill us in.

[plurality]

30. you'll have to be more specific.

What is it you'd like to have shared with you?

[Darranar]

10. That's not true.

[drdon326]

15. Yes it is.

boy,that was easy.

[sushi]

24. Cutting aid to Egypt

will mean losing the ability to influence the Egyptian government. Washington won't do that. Aid will go on, and those newspapers will go on writing those articles.

[Trajan]

3. I must agree with ya's on this ...

Killing kids is NEVER ok .... Ever ...

It is JUST as wrong to justify the killing of children by suicide bombers, as it is to justify the killing of children by rockets fired from helicopter gunships flying over neighborhoods ...

Furthermore: ... MEMRI is operated and controlled by the wife of David Wurmser, who is a good friend of the american Neocons whom we universally decry here at DU ...

WHY would ANYONE here in DU use the organs of the neocon right to promote a specific view here in this 'progressive/liberal' forum ? ...

Wurmser is an ENEMY of liberalism ...

Somehow: the cachet of Neoconservatism stains the message offered here, even though in this case: it is a completely rational and fair observation ...

Again: .. Killing children is WRONG ... for EVERYONE .... and the Egyptians should NEVER attempt to justify such actions ...

Let such a worthy cause guide your own conscience ...

[Muddleoftheroad]

4. No stain

Either it was said or it wasn't.

[Lurking Dem]

5. Find me one person,

one statement, one - from anywhere - that claims Memri's translations are inaccurate.

[Trajan]

6. Not the point ...

I am not attempting to JUSTIFY either the sentiment of those holding the view in question, nor the specific translation offered ...

The thrust of my comments were:

1) The Egyptian government is WRONG to support such an immoral position ...

2) The notion that 'children shall NOT be killed in pursuit of a cause' is universal ....

3) That MEMRI is an organ of the Right wing, and specifically of the very individuals whom we despise ... It doesnt matter if they 'correctly' transcribe a piece: ... they are STILL an organ of our opposition ...

[Jim Sagle]

27. They're not MY opposition. YMMV.

[Blitz]

28. Regarding your third point

I am thankful for the existence of MEMRI. They shine a light into a very dark corner of the world. They provide an invaluable service to the Western world. In short, they do good.

Support for Israel and opposition tto radical Islamist ideology are not right wing positions. You should be more careful with those "wes" and "ours"

[plurality]

11. no one says they provide inaccurate translations

But they do cherry pick the pieces they translate to make all Muslims appear to terrorists.

[Muddleoftheroad]

21. All publications cherry pick quotes

They ignore boring stuff because no one will read it.

[GabysPoppy]

7. Not true

Memri is owned and operated by Yigal Carmon. That is like saying the New York Yankees are owned and operated by Ghandi.

on edit: where do you get your information from?

[Trajan]

12. Ehem ....

From the Ariel Center for Policy Research: http://www.acpr.org.il/people/mwurmser.html

Meyrav Wurmser

Dr. Meyrav Wurmser co-founded together with Yigal Carmon, the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI), and served as its Executive Director for four years. She is currently a Senior Fellow and Director of the Center for Middle East Studies at the Hudson Institute and is writing a book on the failure of Oslo. Dr. Wurmser's Ph.D. thesis was on the ideas that informed the Revisionist/Herut/Likud party, from Jabotinsky through Begin to Yitzhak Shamir. She is a regular contributor to the Jerusalem Post.

-snip-

You are correct: ... Ms. Wurmser is not currently the operator of MEMRI , though she was certainly it's co founder AND it's Executive Director ... This is a small distinction ...

Explain the analogy: ... Wurmser is to MEMRI what Ghandi is to the NY Yankees ....

This I would love to hear ...

Hey ? .. isnt it true that Richard Perle is an Executive at Hollinger, which own's the Jerusalem Post, and is ALSO, like Ms. Wurmser, a 'regular contributor' to the JPost's pages ? ...

Hmmm ? ... another "Ghandi meets godzilla" analogy ? ..

[JasonDeter]

32. Disgusting display of hatred for humanity. Evil incarnate.

Braindead propaganda meant to inspire mindless acts from depraved terrorist groups. Shriveled up old men who wear religious garb will use this propaganda crap from the egyptian govt daily to persuade soulless humans to kill innocent children. This is what our 3 BILLION taxpayer dollars gets us? Its sick.

[Forkboy]

35. Let's switch this around

"Targeted Killings are Legitimate Even if Children Are Killed"

I've seen this argued right here,and if people dont believe me then they should pay more attention.

[Praline]

36. However,

it bothers almost no one who posts here when Israelis are splattered all over buses and cafes, so what's your real point?

[Forkboy]

37. You're wrong

it bothers many.

And seeing as though that was such a pathetic charge I'll leave it to you to figure out my point.

[MikeGalos]

38. If they were targeted killings of children

you might have a point. But they're not and you don't.

[Name removed]

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[drdon326]

40. Mike can save it.....

but i wont.

Given your vast expierence at fighting terrorism,Forkboy,
how do you know they "sure as shit isn't doing all they can to avoid these deaths"???

[Forkboy]

41. You can save it too

Israel may not target civilians but they dont seem to mind if they're a few feet away. :eyes:

Oh,and what's YOUR terrorism fighting experience there Don?

[drdon326]

42. Ahhhhh

so everyone can save it.....interesting.

same experience as yours,but i know Israel has tried to avoid
innocent deaths and only the accidents get the press.....
as opposed to the terrorstinians who DELIBERATELY target
innocents and then hide in the palestinian population.
Very brave.

[Forkboy]

43. They dont try to avoid civilian deaths

they dont give a shit if innocents die...just so long as they get their man.They care about innocents the same way Bush does.

"Only the accidents get the press"...Yeah,and there's a lot of "accidents".

[bluesoul]

46. Every day

"accidents"....

[Name removed]

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[bluesoul]

51. I know that

That's why I don't intend to stay much longer here...

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[number6]

60. more....

carpet bombing is Legitimate Even if Children Are Killed
using cruise missles is Legitimate Even if Children Are Killed
droping nukes on Hiroshima and Nakasaki was Legitimate Even if Children were Killed ....
colateral damage is Legitimate Even if Children Are Killed
fighting terroism is Legitimate Even if Children Are Killed
using an A-10 to kill a Al-Queda/Taliban fighter is Legitimate Even if Children Are Killed

double standard a rama man .....

[Jack Rabbit]

52. No attack is legitimate whenever civilians are targeted

Period.

[MikeGalos]

54. Civilians or non-combatants

After all, a lot of terrorists are technically civilians since Hamas and Fatah and al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigate and the like aren't official military units.

I'd like to think that shooting back at somebody machine gunning a Bat Mitzvah isn't what you mean by targeting civilians...

[durutti]

56. I agree, BUT...

By the same token, many settlers are legitimate targets.

[Blitz]

59. Which settlers are those?

[durutti]

68. Many settlers belong to paramilitary groups.

And still others get a kick out of assaulting Palestinians.

[Jack Rabbit]

57. Okay, if it's not clear

A guerrilla is a combatant. I don't regard them as civilians.

[durutti]

55. This is insane, if true.

MEMRI isn't the most reliable source. But if true, it's absolutely repugnant.

[Blitz]

58. I have always thought that Memri was very reliable

Could you please support your assertion and show me some instances when they have been found to be unreliable or to have given false information?

[Name removed]

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