As Palestinians slide into anarchy, calls mount for better leadership

[Herschel]

“Yes, we are in a state of anarchy.”
That is how Zayyad Abu-Zayyad, member of the Palestinian Legislative Council and a former Palestinian Authority Cabinet minister, describes life today in the areas ruled by the Palestinian Authority.

“Certainly when a Palestinian policeman cannot walk around freely wearing his uniform, this creates a vacuum in which everyone does whatever one pleases,” he said.

The situation is becoming grave, Abu-Zayyad told JTA.

“We have people selling land that is not theirs, and our courts are unable to enforce the law. Everyone who has money can purchase as many arms as he wants and can do with them whatever he wants. There is strong collaboration between our mafia and the Israeli mafia,” he said.

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http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?intarticleid=13723&intcategoryid=1

It would appear a more civilized partner for peace is required.

[Forkboy]

1. Both sides need better leadership

Desperately!

[liberalhistorian]

3. Absolutely,

thanks for pointing that out! BOTH SIDES need new leaders unlike the ones they have now.

[Blitz]

4. Who should pick these new leaders? n/t

[Forkboy]

5. You tell me

[Blitz]

6. You're the one calling for new leaders for both sides

Not me.

[Forkboy]

7. The people should

Hopefully next time they'll choose more wisely.

[Blitz]

8. The Israeli people DID choose their leadership

and have done so, through scheduled, fair and open elections, for as long as Israel has existed. When the next scheduled elections are held, Israeli citizens, regardless of religion, ethnicity or gender, will once again have their voices heard.

When is the next Palestinian election? When was the last free, fair and open Palestinian election? What were the terms of office that the elected officials were elected for? Who speaks for the Arab people living in Palestine?

[Forkboy]

9. That's why I said

BOTH SIDES.

[Muddleoftheroad]

14. They chose wisely

They tried peace and it was rejected without counteroffer. Arafathead chose war. Israel, in response, picked a military man to protect it.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

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[Herschel]

17. Things are quite well for Israel

particularly in relation to the Palestinians' pathetic plight.

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. Considering the options

Things are going fine.

[Blitz]

19. Terrorist attacks are being stopped at a record rate

Terrorist leaders are being eliminated. A security fence is finally being built (something that should have happened decades ago), separation is on the horizon ... things could be much worse. Lord knows they would have been had the architects of the catastrophe that was Oslo somehow come to power again. Happily, they were overwhelmingly rejected by the Israeli people.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

15. and if they don't like him - Fundies will shoot him

until they get the guy they want.

B

[Blitz]

20. Israel has had ONE assassination of a major figure

in its history. Compare that to virtually any other country. the "Fundies" in Israel generally work through the democratic process, where they have a voice. Quite a difference from how the "Fundies" work in every other part of the Middle East.

[Herschel]

21. Contrast this to the number of Palestinian leaders eliminated

Of course, some were eliminated by their own, some met the fate of justice from the IDF. Their numbers are many.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

23. exactly, fundies are fundies

no difference

B

[Blitz]

24. Absolutely wrong

Fundies are not Fundies. I don't see any Amish murdering people for not following their interpretation of Christianity and, yet, they are undoubtedly fundamentalists. Jewish fundamentalists have had exactly ONE episode of mass murder of Moslems. The man's name is known to all and widely reviled. He was not supported by any organization. Compare that to Islamist fundamentalists. When was the last time a follower of Falwell or Robertson hijacked anything?

Fundies are not fundies. Cultures and ideologies are not all equal.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

27. We must always define our terms

Fundies in my book do not include the Amish, but your definition can be correct. My definition of fundies include people who do not tolerate those who do not believe in the same and acting violently in that regard.

Are you actually defending christian fundamentalists - from the crusades to the KKK and Tim McV and much in between. Yes, siting the Amish is grasping at straws.


"Cultures and ideologies are not all equal"

oooops...there goes that veil. a telling statement.

Bill

[Blitz]

28. YOu disagree with that statement?

Are you willing to state that you believe that cultures and ideologies are all equal? Let's put our cards on the table.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

30. I would not presume to be able to make such distinctions

those who control the past control the future, who controls the present controls the past

Yup Orwell was right.

How do you presume to make such a statement - again they are your words - why don't you back them up.

what is your hierarchy of culture? What is your listing of ideology?

waiting for your royal flush

B

[Blitz]

31. I asked you a simple question

And you respond with nonsense.

"those who control the past control the future, who controls the present controls the past"

Right. That's very deep. Also, it means nothing. Before I back anything up, I'm asking for you to define your position. If we don't disagree, why should I back anything up.

Simple question (it can be answered yes or no):

Do you believe that all cultures and ideologies are equal?

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blitz]

33. And that's a personal attack ... again

I stated my position clearly. I do not believe that all cultures and ideologies are equal. American culture in this century, in my opinion, is superior to Afghani culture in this century. Capitalist ideology is far superior to communist ideology, which is marginally better than Nazi ideology.

The Amish have a socially superior belief set than Wahaabists. The North had a culture that was, on the whole, superior to the culture of the Confederacy (which had much to recommend it, none of which overcame the horror of institutionalized slavery). Present day French society, on the whole, is far superior to that which is currently found in Zimbabwe or Zaire or Syria. The Mormons do more good and less harm than Islamists. Cultures that encourage gender equality are, as far as I'm concerned, superior (in that respect, at least) to those that do not. Cultures that encourage hatred, bigotry and violence among its participants are inferior to those that do not. Is that clear enough for you? How many examples do you need? Now, how about answering the simple yes or no question that I put to you, or do you want to continue to sit there, lobbing charges of intellectual cowardice while avoiding and dancing around a simple question?

On edit: I didn't ask you to prove anything. I asked you a simple yes or no question as to the nature, rather than the substance of your beliefs on this issue.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

34. and I answered your question

I do not believe I can make such distinctions ...and neither can you.

You speak of your opinion...that is all it is

Wow, a shocker, white, European capitalist culture is superior.

Now you may be able to comprehend

'Who controls the past controls the future, who controls the present controls the past'

You praise cultures that preach equality to defend a statement that cultures are not equal.

[Blitz]

35. Equality among members of the culture

NOT equality among cultures. I'm sorry that the distinction is apparently lost on you. And yes, I can make such distinctions. Your admitted inability to do so is a handicap that you may want to try to address.

Do you deny that, all other things being equal, a culture that practices slavery is inferior to one that does not, or is that not something that you feel you can pass judgment on?

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

36. "Cultures and ideologies are not all equal" was your statement

Are you baking away? That was your statement. You then went on to compare cultures - not groups within a culture "American culture is better than Afghan Culture"

Now its...

""Equality among members of the culture"
NOT equality among cultures."

tisk, tisk, wiggle, wiggle - yes I have the 'handicap', of giving people the opportunity to defend or retract their words.

nice hypothetical - all things being equal - why don't you put your laundry list of clarifications and distinctions when you make the statement.

all things being equal, now thats funny

bye, bye - you have become tiresome

[Blitz]

37. I do not bake

I am a fine cook, however, and make a wonderful breakfast. You need to read what I posted more carefully. I have been 100% consistant and you are still dancing around simple questions. I state that cultures and societies that practice and promote equality among their members are presumptively superior to those that do not. Promoting and practicing equality among the members of a culture has no relationship to the erroneous and unsupportable position that cultures themselves are equal. Just the opposite, actually since, if that was the case, a culture could not improve itself. What's unclear about that?

And you refuse to answer the question:

Two cultures. Identical in every way except that one practices and promotes slavery and one does not. Are they equal? The fact that you are having a hard time with this speaks volumes.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

22. Nope, fundies are fundies no matter what doctrine or locale

whether hunkered down in settlements taking pot shots, attempting to bomb a US mosque then killing yourself in jail, or offing a PM ...

No different than Hamas

B

[Blitz]

25. We should immediately crack down on the Amish

Those fundies are dangerous you know!! And they are all the same, regardless of doctrine or locale, don't you know!

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. Any Shakers left?

We should get them too. Who cares if they make nifty furniture!

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[JasonDeter]

2. Its amazing the media sanitation of the absolute corruption

of arafat and his cabal. Are the American media in control of that area? Its a crying shame the Palestinain people can be taken advantage of like this!! My heart goes out to them and hope arafat drops dead soon. With all the corruption its obvious he's in control and equally obvious he belongs in the hague for crimes against humanity (the Palestinian people).

[drewb]

10. Mr. Sharon has been investigated for improprieties also...

I will leave it at that.

:loveya:

[Les Claypool]

11. Sharon belongs there as well.

I mean if we are to call a spade a spade afterall.

[David__77]

12. Maybe they should just disband the "authority."

The PA has no sovereignty, so why not disband it and return responsibility to Israel? This is an occupation after all...

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

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