Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Israel must talk to Hamas to achieve peace, says former MI6 man

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU
 
Herschel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 09:22 AM
Original message
Israel must talk to Hamas to achieve peace, says former MI6 man
A former MI6 officer who held secret talks with Palestinian extremist leaders and helped to arrange a ceasefire last year has said that Middle East peace can be achieved only if Israel negotiates with Hamas.

In his first extensive published comments, Alastair Crooke, 54, has proposed a radical departure from the Israeli policy, supported by Britain and the United States, of isolating and excluding the Palestinian groups that carry out suicide bombings inside Israel.

cut

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/02/02/wmid02.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/02/02/ixworld.html

Please! Hamas must be broken.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Dark Star Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. Alastair
CROOKe, please meet Neville Chamberlain. :puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. To hell with Hamas
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Herschel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Well said
Destroy them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrokenSegue Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. yes but..
Haven't we allready tried that?
It sure worked well.
Maybe we should try somthing else

Also would you mind making your pictures smaller it's annoying to have such big pictures taking up all that room.-JK
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freedom of Speech Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. If a large picture of MLK
upsets you so much, the protocol is to press the 'alert' button and snitch rather than confront the person who appreciates MLK.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. People have been asked by the admins not to use such large sig pics
for the sake of people on dial up connections.

Your insinuation that the poster dislikes MLK is pathetic...you're gonna fit right in here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Herschel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Begging your pardon
Edited on Tue Feb-03-04 01:29 PM by Herschel
My skills do not allow for changing the size of these pictures. Indeed, it was my intent to make Joe Lieberman's larger, to reflect King's admiration of him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Just telling you what I've read before
how you deal with it is your choice :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BrokenSegue Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Not at MLK
I would just like to say, to clear my name, I am not against MLK or Martin Luther King for that matter.

I'm against people who slow down laoding times and takes up half the page with one post.

Thanks in advance for changing it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BrokenSegue Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. deleted message
I really want to know what he said...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Turn on your option to recieve private messages
and I'll tell you,though it was nothing exciting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
4. Communication
Maybe this was misreported and what he really said was Israel should communicate early and often with Hamas. I prefer the military form of communication.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. The Chicago way - communicate early and communicate often.
;-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. A little background on Hamas
Edited on Mon Feb-02-04 02:29 PM by MikeGalos
Remember that these are the loonies who think that the Zionists secretly control the world through the Lion's and Rotary Clubs, created the French and Russian Revolutions, and World Wars I and II to create the climate for the Zionist control of the world and that Allah has ordered them to kill all the Jews.

They're roughly the equivalent of a Moslem version of the Christian Identity racist groups here in the US but better funded and better armed.

Here's their charter...



Hamas Covenant 1988



The Covenant

of the

Islamic Resistance Movement




18 August 1988



In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah



"Ye are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind: ye command that which is just, and ye forbid that which is unjust, and ye believe in Allah. And if they who have received the scriptures had believed, it had surely been the better for them: there are believers among them, but the greater part of them are transgressors. They shall not hurt you, unless with a slight hurt; and if they fight against you, they shall turn their backs to you, and they shall not be helped. They are smitten with vileness wheresoever they are found; unless they obtain security by entering into a treaty with Allah, and a treaty with men; and they draw on themselves indignation from Allah, and they are afflicted with poverty. This they suffer, because they disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew the prophets unjustly; this, because they were rebellious, and transgressed." (Al-Imran
- verses 109-111).



Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).



"The Islamic world is on fire. Each of us should pour some water, no matter how little, to extinguish whatever one can without waiting for the others." (Sheikh Amjad al-Zahawi, of blessed
memory).



In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah



Introduction

Praise be unto Allah, to whom we resort for help, and whose forgiveness, guidance and support we seek; Allah bless the Prophet and grant him salvation, his companions and supporters, and to those who carried out his message and adopted his laws - everlasting prayers and salvation as long as the earth and heaven will last. Hereafter:



O People:

Out of the midst of troubles and the sea of suffering, out of the palpitations of faithful hearts and cleansed arms; out of the sense of duty, and in response to Allah's command, the call has gone out rallying people together and making them follow the ways of Allah, leading them to have determined will in order to fulfill their role in life, to overcome all obstacles, and surmount the difficulties on the way. Constant preparation has continued and so has the readiness to sacrifice life and all that is precious for the sake of Allah.



Thus it was that the nucleus (of the movement) was formed and started to pave its way through the tempestuous sea of hopes and expectations, of wishes and yearnings, of troubles and
obstacles, of pain and challenges, both inside and outside.



When the idea was ripe, the seed grew and the plant struck root in the soil of reality, away from passing emotions, and hateful haste. The Islamic Resistance Movement emerged to carry out its role through striving for the sake of its Creator, its arms intertwined with those of all the fighters for the liberation of Palestine. The spirits of its fighters meet with the spirits of all the fighters who have sacrificed their lives on the soil of Palestine, ever since it was conquered by the companions
of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, and until this day.



This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.



Thus we see them coming on the horizon "and you shall learn about it hereafter" "Allah hath written, Verily I will prevail, and my apostles: for Allah is strong and mighty." (The Dispute -
verse 21).



"Say to them, This is my way: I invite you to Allah, by an evident demonstration; both I and he who followeth me; and, praise be unto Allah! I am not an idolator." (Joseph - verse
107).



Hamas (means) strength and bravery -(according to) Al-Mua'jam al-Wasit: c1.


Definition of the Movement



Ideological Starting-Points




Article One:


The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement's programme is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man. It resorts to it for judgement in all its conduct, and it is inspired by it for guidance of its steps.





The Islamic Resistance Movement's Relation With the Moslem
Brotherhood Group:




Article Two:


The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Moslem Brotherhood in Palestine. Moslem Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times. It is characterised by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgement, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam.





Structure and Formation



Article Three:


The basic structure of the Islamic Resistance Movement consists of Moslems who have given their allegiance to Allah whom they truly worship, - "I have created the jinn and humans only for the purpose of worshipping" - who know their duty towards themselves, their families and country. In all that, they fear Allah and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors, so that they would rid the land and the people of their uncleanliness, vileness and evils.



"But we will oppose truth to vanity, and it shall confound the same; and behold, it shall vanish away." (Prophets - verse 18).



Article Four:


The Islamic Resistance Movement welcomes every Moslem who embraces its faith, ideology, follows its programme, keeps its secrets, and wants to belong to its ranks and carry out the duty. Allah will certainly reward such one.



Time and Place Extent of the Islamic Resistance Movement:



Article Five:


Time extent of the Islamic Resistance Movement: By adopting Islam as its way of life, the Movement goes back to the time of the birth of the Islamic message, of the righteous ancestor, for Allah is its target, the Prophet is its example and the Koran is its constitution. Its extent in place is anywhere that there are Moslems who embrace Islam as their way of life everywhere in the globe. This being so, it extends to the depth of the earth and reaches out to the heaven.



"Dost thou not see how Allah putteth forth a parable; representing a good word, as a good tree, whose root is firmly fixed in the earth, and whose branches reach unto heaven; which bringeth forth its fruit in all seasons, by the will of its Lord? Allah propoundeth parables unto men, that they may be instructed." (Abraham - verses 24-25).


Characteristics and Independence:



Article Six:


The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned. In the absence of Islam, strife will be rife, oppression spreads, evil prevails and schisms and wars will break out.



How excellent was the Moslem poet, Mohamed Ikbal, when he wrote:



"If faith is lost, there is no security and there is no life for him who does not adhere to religion. He who accepts life without religion, has taken annihilation as his companion for life."


The Universality of the Islamic Resistance Movement:



Article Seven:


As a result of the fact that those Moslems who adhere to the ways of the Islamic Resistance Movement spread all over the world, rally support for it and its stands, strive towards enhancing its struggle, the Movement is a universal one. It is well-equipped for that because of the clarity of its ideology, the nobility of its aim and the loftiness of its objectives.



On this basis, the Movement should be viewed and evaluated, and its role be recognised. He who denies its right, evades supporting it and turns a blind eye to facts, whether intentionally or unintentionally, would awaken to see that events have overtaken him and with no logic to justify his attitude. One should certainly learn from past examples.



The injustice of next-of-kin is harder to bear than the smite of the Indian sword.



"We have also sent down unto thee the book of the Koran with truth, confirming that scripture which was revealed before it; and preserving the same safe from corruption. Judge therefore between them according to that which Allah hath revealed; and follow not their desires, by swerving from the truth which hath come unto thee. Unto every of you have we given a law, and an open path; and if Allah had pleased, he had surely made you one people; but he hath thought it fit to give you different laws, that he might try you in that which he hath given you respectively. Therefore strive to excel each other in good works; unto Allah shall ye all return, and then will he declare unto you that concerning which ye have disagreed." (The Table, verse 48).


The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Moslem Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Moslem Brotherhood in 1968 and after.



Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).


The Slogan of the Islamic Resistance Movement:



Article Eight:


Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.



Objectives



Incentives and Objectives:



Article Nine:


The Islamic Resistance Movement found itself at a time when Islam has disappeared from life. Thus rules shook, concepts were upset, values changed and evil people took control, oppression and darkness prevailed, cowards became like tigers: homelands were usurped, people were scattered and were caused to wander all over the world, the state of justice disappeared and the state of falsehood replaced it. Nothing remained in its right place. Thus, when Islam is absent from the arena, everything changes. From this state of affairs the incentives are drawn.



As for the objectives: They are the fighting against the false, defeating it and vanquishing it so that justice could prevail, homelands be retrieved and from its mosques would the voice of the mu'azen emerge declaring the establishment of the state of Islam, so that people and things would return each to their right places and Allah is our helper.



"...and if Allah had not prevented men, the one by the other, verily the earth had been corrupted: but Allah is beneficient towards his creatures." (The Cow - verse 251).


Article Ten:

As the Islamic Resistance Movement paves its way, it will back the oppressed and support the wronged with all its might. It will spare no effort to bring about justice and defeat injustice, in word and deed, in this place and everywhere it can reach and have influence therein.



Strategies and Methods




Strategies of the Islamic Resistance Movement: Palestine Is Isalmic aqf:




Article Eleven:


The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?



This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.



It happened like this: When the leaders of the Islamic armies conquered Syria and Iraq, they sent to the Caliph of the Moslems, Umar bin-el-Khatab, asking for his advice concerning the conquered land - whether they should divide it among the soldiers, or leave it for its owners, or what? After consultations and discussions between the Caliph of the Moslems, Omar bin-el-Khatab and companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, it was decided that the land should be left with its owners who could benefit by its fruit. As for the real ownership of the land and the land itself, it should be consecrated for Moslem generations till Judgement Day. Those who are on the land, are there only to benefit from its fruit. This Waqf remains as long as earth and heaven remain. Any procedure in contradiction to Islamic Sharia, where Palestine is concerned, is null and void.



"Verily, this is a certain truth. Wherefore praise the name of thy Lord, the great Allah." (The Inevitable - verse 95).


Homeland and Nationalism from the Point of View of the Islamic Resistance Movement in Palestine:



Article Twelve:


Nationalism, from the point of view of the Islamic Resistance Movement, is part of the religious creed. Nothing in nationalism is more significant or deeper than in the case when an enemy should tread Moslem land. Resisting and quelling the enemy become the individual duty of every Moslem, male or female. A woman can go out to fight the enemy without her husband's permission, and so does the slave: without his master's permission.



Nothing of the sort is to be found in any other regime. This is an undisputed fact. If other nationalist movements are connected with materialistic, human or regional causes, nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement has all these elements as well as the more important elements that give it soul and life. It is connected to the source of spirit and the granter of life, hoisting in the sky of the homeland the heavenly banner that joins earth and heaven with a strong bond.



If Moses comes and throws his staff, both witch and magic are annulled.



"Now is the right direction manifestly distinguished from deceit: whoever therefore shall deny Tagut, and believe in Allah, he shall surely take hold with a strong handle, which shall not be broken; Allah is he who heareth and seeth." (The Cow - Verse 256).


Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International Conferences:



Article Thirteen:


Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."



Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?



"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).


There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:



"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."


The Three Circles:



Article Fourteen:


The question of the liberation of Palestine is bound to three circles: the Palestinian circle, the Arab circle and the Islamic circle. Each of these circles has its role in the struggle against Zionism. Each has its duties, and it is a horrible mistake and a sign of deep ignorance to overlook any of these circles. Palestine is an Islamic land which has the first of the two kiblahs (direction to which Moslems turn in praying), the third of the holy (Islamic) sanctuaries, and the point of departure for Mohamed's midnight journey to the seven heavens (i.e. Jerusalem).



"Praise be unto him who transported his servant by night, from the sacred temple of Mecca to the farther temple of Jerusalem, the circuit of which we have blessed, that we might show him some of our signs; for Allah is he who heareth, and seeth." (The Night-Journey - verse 1).


Since this is the case, liberation of Palestine is then an individual duty for very Moslem wherever he may be. On this basis, the problem should be viewed. This should be realised by every Moslem.



The day the problem is dealt with on this basis, when the three circles mobilize their capabilities, the present state of affairs will change and the day of liberation will come nearer.



"Verily ye are stronger than they, by reason of the terror cast into their breasts from Allah. This, because they are not people of prudence." (The Emigration - verse 13).


The Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine is an Individual Duty:



Article Fifteen:


The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.



It is necessary that scientists, educators and teachers, information and media people, as well as the educated masses, especially the youth and sheikhs of the Islamic movements, should take part in the operation of awakening (the masses). It is important that basic changes be made in the school curriculum, to cleanse it of the traces of ideological invasion that affected it as a result of the orientalists and missionaries who infiltrated the region following the defeat of the Crusaders at the hands of Salah el-Din (Saladin). The Crusaders realised that it was impossible to defeat the Moslems without first having ideological invasion pave the way by upsetting their thoughts, disfiguring their heritage and violating their ideals. Only then could they invade with soldiers. This, in its turn, paved the way for the imperialistic invasion that made Allenby declare on entering Jerusalem: "Only now have the Crusades ended." General Guru stood at Salah el-Din's grave and said: "We have returned, O Salah el-Din." Imperialism has helped towards the strengthening of ideological invasion, deepening, and still does, its roots. All this has paved the way towards the loss of Palestine.



It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Moslem generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis. Palestine contains Islamic holy sites. In it there is al- Aqsa Mosque which is bound to the great Mosque in Mecca in an inseparable bond as long as heaven and earth speak of Isra` (Mohammed's midnight journey to the seven heavens) and Mi'raj (Mohammed's ascension to the seven heavens from Jerusalem).



"The bond of one day for the sake of Allah is better than the world and whatever there is on it. The place of one's whip in Paradise is far better than the world and whatever there is on it. A worshipper's going and coming in the service of Allah is better than the world and whatever there is on it." (As related by al-Bukhari, Moslem, al-Tarmdhi and Ibn Maja).


"I swear by the holder of Mohammed's soul that I would like to invade and be killed for the sake of Allah, then invade and be killed, and then invade again and be killed." (As related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).


The Education of the Generations:



Article Sixteen:


It is necessary to follow Islamic orientation in educating the Islamic generations in our region by teaching the religious duties, comprehensive study of the Koran, the study of the Prophet's Sunna (his sayings and doings), and learning about Islamic history and heritage from their authentic sources. This should be done by specialised and learned people, using a curriculum that would healthily form the thoughts and faith of the Moslem student. Side by side with this, a comprehensive study of the enemy, his human and financial capabilities, learning about his points of weakness and strength, and getting to know the forces supporting and helping him, should also be included. Also, it is important to be acquainted with the current events, to follow what is new and to study the analysis and commentaries made of these events. Planning for the present and future, studying every trend appearing, is a must so that the fighting Moslem would live knowing his aim, objective and his way in the midst of what is going on around him.



"O my son, verily every matter, whether good or bad, though it be the weight of a grain of mustard-seed, and be hidden in a rock, or in the heavens, or in the earth, Allah will bring the same to light; for Allah is clear-sighted and knowing. O my son, be constant at prayer, and command that which is just, and forbid that which is evil: and be patient under the afflictions which shall befall thee; for this is a duty absolutely incumbent on all men. Distort not thy face out of contempt to men, neither walk in the earth with insolence; for Allah loveth no arrogant, vain-glorious person." (Lokman - verses 16-18).


The Role of the Moslem Woman:



Article Seventeen:


The Moslem woman has a role no less important than that of the moslem man in the battle of liberation. She is the maker of men. Her role in guiding and educating the new generations is great. The enemies have realised the importance of her role. They consider that if they are able to direct and bring her up they way they wish, far from Islam, they would have won the battle. That is why you find them giving these attempts constant attention through information campaigns, films, and the school curriculum, using for that purpose their lackeys who are infiltrated through Zionist organizations under various names and shapes, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, espionage groups and others, which are all nothing more than cells of subversion and saboteurs. These organizations have ample resources that enable them to play their role in societies for the purpose of achieving the Zionist targets and to deepen the concepts that would serve the enemy. These organizations operate in the absence of Islam and its estrangement among its people. The Islamic peoples should perform their role in confronting the conspiracies of these saboteurs. The day Islam is in control of guiding the affairs of life, these organizations, hostile to humanity and Islam, will be obliterated.



Article Eighteen:


Woman in the home of the fighting family, whether she is a mother or a sister, plays the most important role in looking after the family, rearing the children and embuing them with moral values and thoughts derived from Islam. She has to teach them to perform the religious duties in preparation for the role of fighting awaiting them. That is why it is necessary to pay great attention to schools and the curriculum followed in educating Moslem girls, so that they would grow up to be good mothers, aware of their role in the battle of liberation.



She has to be of sufficient knowledge and understanding where the performance of housekeeping matters are concerned, because economy and avoidance of waste of the family budget, is one of the requirements for the ability to continue moving forward in the difficult conditions surrounding us. She should put before her eyes the fact that the money available to her is just like blood which should never flow except through the veins so that both children and grown-ups could continue to live.



"Verily, the Moslems of either sex, and the true believers of either sex, and the devout men, and the devout women, and the men of veracity, and the women of veracity, and the patient men, and the patient women, and the humble men, and the humble women, and the alms-givers of either sex who remember Allah frequently; for them hath Allah prepared forgiveness and a great reward." (The Confederates - verse 25).


The Role of Islamic Art in the Battle of Liberation:



Article Nineteen:


Art has regulations and measures by which it can be determined whether it is Islamic or pre-Islamic (Jahili) art. The issues of Islamic liberation are in need of Islamic art that would take the spirit high, without raising one side of human nature above the other, but rather raise all of them harmoniously an in equilibrium.



Man is a unique and wonderful creature, made out of a handful of clay and a breath from Allah. Islamic art addresses man on this basis, while pre-Islamic art addresses the body giving preference to the clay component in it.



The book, the article, the bulletin, the sermon, the thesis, the popular poem, the poetic ode, the song, the play and others, contain the characteristics of Islamic art, then these are among the requirements of ideological mobilization, renewed food for the journey and recreation for the soul. The road is long and suffering is plenty. The soul will be bored, but Islamic art renews the energies, resurrects the movement, arousing in them lofty meanings and proper conduct. "Nothing can improve the self if it is in retreat except shifting from one mood to another."



All this is utterly serious and no jest, for those who are fighters do not jest.



Social Mutual Responsibility:



Article Twenty:


Moslem society is a mutually responsible society. The Prophet, prayers and greetings be unto him, said: "Blessed are the generous, whether they were in town or on a journey, who have collected all that they had and shared it equally among themselves."



The Islamic spirit is what should prevail in every Moslem society. The society that confronts a vicious enemy which acts in a way similar to Nazism, making no differentiation between man and woman, between children and old people - such a society is entitled to this Islamic spirit. Our enemy relies on the methods of collective punishment. He has deprived people of their homeland and properties, pursued them in their places of exile and gathering, breaking bones, shooting at women, children and old people, with or without a reason. The enemy has opened detention camps where thousands and thousands of people are thrown and kept under sub-human conditions. Added to this, are the demolition of houses, rendering children orphans, meting cruel sentences against thousands of young people, and causing them to spend the best years of their lives in the dungeons of prisons.



In their Nazi treatment, the Jews made no exception for women or children. Their policy of striking fear in the heart is meant for all. They attack people where their breadwinning is concerned, extorting their money and threatening their honour. They deal with people as if they were the worst war criminals. Deportation from the homeland is a kind of murder.



To counter these deeds, it is necessary that social mutual responsibility should prevail among the people. The enemy should be faced by the people as a single body which if one member of it should complain, the rest of the body would respond by feeling the same pains.



Article Twenty-One:


Mutual social responsibility means extending assistance, financial or moral, to all those who are in need and joining in the execution of some of the work. Members of the Islamic Resistance Movement should consider the interests of the masses as their own personal interests. They must spare no effort in achieving and preserving them. They must prevent any foul play with the future of the upcoming generations and anything that could cause loss to society. The masses are part of them and they are part of the masses. Their strength is theirs, and their future is theirs. Members of the Islamic Resistance Movement should share the people's joy and grief, adopt the demands of the public and whatever means by which they could be realised. The day that such a spirit prevails, brotherliness would deepen, cooperation, sympathy and unity will be enhanced and the ranks will be solidified to confront the enemies.



Supportive Forces Behind the Enemy:



Article Twenty-Two:


For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.



You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.



"So often as they shall kindle a fire for war, Allah shall extinguish it; and they shall set their minds to act corruptly in the earth, but Allah loveth not the corrupt doers." (The Table - verse 64).


The imperialistic forces in the Capitalist West and Communist East, support the enemy with all their might, in money and in men. These forces take turns in doing that. The day Islam appears, the forces of infidelity would unite to challenge it, for the infidels are of one nation.



"O true believers, contract not an intimate friendship with any besides yourselves: they will not fail to corrupt you. They wish for that which may cause you to perish: their hatred hath already appeared from out of their mouths; but what their breasts conceal is yet more inveterate. We have already shown you signs of their ill will towards you, if ye understand." (The Family of Imran - verse 118).


It is not in vain that the verse is ended with Allah's words "if ye understand."



Our Attitudes Towards:




A. Islamic Movements:



Article Twenty-Three:


The Islamic Resistance Movement views other Islamic movements with respect and appreciation. If it were at variance with them on one point or opinion, it is in agreement with them on other points and understandings. It considers these movements, if they reveal good intentions and dedication to Allah, that they fall into the category of those who are trying hard since they act within the Islamic circle. Each active person has his share.



The Islamic Resistance Movement considers all these movements as a fund for itself. It prays to Allah for guidance and directions for all and it spares no effort to keep the banner of unity raised, ever striving for its realisation in accordance with the Koran and the Prophet's directives.



"And cleave all of you unto the covenant of Allah, and depart not from it, and remember the favour of Allah towards you: since ye were enemies, and he reconciled your hearts, and ye became companions and brethren by his favour: and ye were on the brink of a pit of fire, and he delivered you thence. Allah declareth unto you his signs, that ye may be directed." (The Family of Imran - Verse 102).


Article Twenty-Four:


The Islamic Resistance Movement does not allow slandering or speaking ill of individuals or groups, for the believer does not indulge in such malpractices. It is necessary to differentiate between this behaviour and the stands taken by certain individuals and groups. Whenever those stands are erroneous, the Islamic Resistance Movement preserves the right to expound the error and to warn against it. It will strive to show the right path and to judge the case in question with objectivity. Wise conduct is indeed the target of the believer who follows it wherever he discerns it.



"Allah loveth not the speaking ill of anyone in public, unless he who is injured call for assistance; and Allah heareth and knoweth: whether ye publish a good action, or conceal it, or forgive evil, verily Allah is gracious and powerful." (Women - verses 147-148).


B. Nationalist Movements in the Palestinian Arena:



Article Twenty-Five:


The Islamic Resistance Movement respects these movements and appreciates their circumstances and the conditions surrounding and affecting them. It encourages them as long as they do not give their allegiance to the Communist East or the Crusading West. It confirms to all those who are integrated in it, or sympathetic towards it, that the Islamic Resistance Movement is a fighting movement that has a moral and enlightened look of life and the way it should cooperate with the other (movements). It detests opportunism and desires only the good of people, individuals and groups alike. It does not seek material gains, personal fame, nor does it look for a reward from others. It works with its own resources and whatever is at its disposal "and prepare for them whatever force you can", for the fulfilment of the duty, and the earning of Allah's favour. It has no other desire than that.



The Movement assures all the nationalist trends operating in the Palestinian arena for the liberation of Palestine, that it is there for their support and assistance. It will never be more than that, both in words and deeds, now and in the future. It is there to bring together and not to divide, to preserve and not to squander, to unify and not to throw asunder. It evaluates every good word, sincere effort and good offices. It closes the door in the face of side disagreements and does not lend an ear to rumours and slanders, while at the same time fully realising the right for self-defence.



Anything contrary or contradictory to these trends, is a lie disseminated by enemies or their lackeys for the purpose of sowing confusion, disrupting the ranks and occupy them with side issues.



"O true believers, if a wicked man come unto you with a tale, inquire strictly into the truth thereof; lest ye hurt people through ignorance, and afterwards repent of what ye have done." (The Inner Apartments - verse 6).


Article Twenty-Six:


In viewing the Palestinian nationalist movements that give allegiance neither to the East nor the West, in this positive way, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not refrain from discussing new situations on the regional or international levels where the Palestinian question is concerned. It does that in such an objective manner revealing the extent of how much it is in harmony or contradiction with the national interests in the light of the Islamic point of view.



C. The Palestinian Liberation Organization:



Article Twenty-Seven:


The Palestinian Liberation Organization is the closest to the heart of the Islamic Resistance Movement. It contains the father and the brother, the next of kin and the friend. The Moslem does not estrange himself from his father, brother, next of kin or friend. Our homeland is one, our situation is one, our fate is one and the enemy is a joint enemy to all of us.



Because of the situations surrounding the formation of the Organization, of the ideological confusion prevailing in the Arab world as a result of the ideological invasion under whose influence the Arab world has fallen since the defeat of the Crusaders and which was, and still is, intensified through orientalists, missionaries and imperialists, the Organization adopted the idea of the secular state. And that it how we view it.



Secularism completely contradicts religious ideology. Attitudes, conduct and decisions stem from ideologies.



That is why, with all our appreciation for The Palestinian Liberation Organization - and what it can develop into - and without belittling its role in the Arab-Israeli conflict, we are unable to exchange the present or future Islamic Palestine with the secular idea. The Islamic nature of Palestine is part of our religion and whoever takes his religion lightly is a loser.



"Who will be adverse to the religion of Abraham, but he whose mind is infatuated? (The Cow - verse 130).


The day The Palestinian Liberation Organization adopts Islam as its way of life, we will become its soldiers, and fuel for its fire that will burn the enemies.



Until such a day, and we pray to Allah that it will be soon, the Islamic Resistance Movement's stand towards the PLO is that of the son towards his father, the brother towards his brother, and the relative to relative, suffers his pain and supports him in confronting the enemies, wishing him to be wise and well-guided.



"Stand by your brother, for he who is brotherless is like the fighter who goes to battle without arms. One's cousin is the wing one flies with - could the bird fly without wings?"


D. Arab and Islamic Countries:



Article Twenty-Eight:


The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.



Arab countries surrounding Israel are asked to open their borders before the fighters from among the Arab and Islamic nations so that they could consolidate their efforts with those of their Moslem brethren in Palestine.



As for the other Arab and Islamic countries, they are asked to facilitate the movement of the fighters from and to it, and this is the least thing they could do.



We should not forget to remind every Moslem that when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that "Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women."



Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."



E. Nationalist and Religious Groupings, Institutions, Intellectuals, The Arab and Islamic World:



The Islamic Resistance Movement hopes that all these groupings will side with it in all spheres, would support it, adopt its stand and solidify its activities and moves, work towards rallying support for it so that the Islamic people will be a base and a stay for it, supplying it with strategic depth an all human material and informative spheres, in time and in place. This should be done through the convening of solidarity conferences, the issuing of explanatory bulletins, favourable articles and booklets, enlightening the masses regarding the Palestinian issue, clarifying what confronts it and the conspiracies woven around it. They should mobilize the Islamic nations, ideologically, educationally and culturally, so that these peoples would be equipped to perform their role in the decisive battle of liberation, just as they did when they vanquished the Crusaders and the Tatars and saved human civilization. Indeed, that is not difficult for Allah.



"Allah hath written, Verily I will prevail, and my apostles: for Allah is strong and mighty." (The Dispute - verse 21).


Article Thirty:


Writers, intellectuals, media people, orators, educaters and teachers, and all the various sectors in the Arab and Islamic world - all of them are called upon to perform their role, and to fulfill their duty, because of the ferocity of the Zionist offensive and the Zionist influence in many countries exercised through financial and media control, as well as the consequences that all this lead to in the greater part of the world.



Jihad is not confined to the carrying of arms and the confrontation of the enemy. The effective word, the good article, the useful book, support and solidarity - together with the presence of sincere purpose for the hoisting of Allah's banner higher and higher - all these are elements of the Jihad for Allah's sake.



"Whosoever mobilises a fighter for the sake of Allah is himself a fighter. Whosoever supports the relatives of a fighter, he himself is a fighter." (related by al-Bukhari, Moslem, Abu-Dawood and al-Tarmadhi).


F. Followers of Other Religions: The Islamic Resistance Movement Is A Humanistic Movement:



Article Thirty-One:


The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.



Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.



It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror. Everyone of them is at variance with his fellow-religionists, not to speak about followers of other religionists. Past and present history are full of examples to prove this fact.



"They will not fight against you in a body, except in fenced towns, or from behind walls. Their strength in war among themselves is great: thou thinkest them to be united; but their hearts are divided. This, because they are people who do not understand." (The Emigration - verse 14).


Islam confers upon everyone his legitimate rights. Islam prevents the incursion on other people's rights. The Zionist Nazi activities against our people will not last for long. "For the state of injustice lasts but one day, while the state of justice lasts till Doomsday."



"As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly." (The Tried - verse 8).


The Attempt to Isolate the Palestinian People:



Article Thirty-Two:


World Zionism, together with imperialistic powers, try through a studied plan and an intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state after another from the circle of struggle against Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. They are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of struggle.



The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.



Leaving the circle of struggle with Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who does that. "for whoso shall turn his back unto them on that day, unless he turneth aside to fight, or retreateth to another party of the faithful, shall draw on himself the indignation of Allah, and his abode shall be hell; an ill journey shall it be thither." (The Spoils - verse 16). There is no way out except by concentrating all powers and energies to face this Nazi, vicious Tatar invasion. The alternative is loss of one's country, the dispersion of citizens, the spread of vice on earth and the destruction of religious values. Let every person know that he is responsible before Allah, for "the doer of the slightest good deed is rewarded in like, and the does of the slightest evil deed is also rewarded in like."



The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road. The Movement adds its efforts to the efforts of all those who are active in the Palestinian arena. Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews.



"..and we have put enmity and hatred between them, until the day of resurrection. So often as they shall kindle a fire of war, Allah shall extinguish it; and they shall set their minds to act corruptly in the earth, but Allah loveth not the corrupt doers." (The Table - verse 64).


Article Thirty-Three:


The Islamic Resistance Movement, being based on the common coordinated and interdependent conceptions of the laws of the universe, and flowing in the stream of destiny in confronting and fighting the enemies in defence of the Moslems and Islamic civilization and sacred sites, the first among which is the Aqsa Mosque, urges the Arab and Islamic peoples, their governments, popular and official groupings, to fear Allah where their view of the Islamic Resistance Movement and their dealings with it are concerned. They should back and support it, as Allah wants them to, extending to it more and more funds till Allah's purpose is achieved when ranks will close up, fighters join other fighters and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty while loudly proclaiming: Hail to Jihad. Their cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about.



"And Allah will certainly assist him who shall be on his side: for Allah is strong and mighty." (The Pilgrimage - verse 40).


The Testimony of History



Across History in Confronting the Invaders:



Article Thirty-Four:


Palestine is the navel of the globe and the crossroad of the continents. Since the dawn of history, it has been the target of expansionists. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, had himself pointed to this fact in the noble Hadith in which he called on his honourable companion, Ma'adh ben-Jabal, saying: O Ma'ath, Allah throw open before you, when I am gone, Syria, from Al-Arish to the Euphrates. Its men, women and slaves will stay firmly there till the Day of Judgement. Whoever of you should choose one of the Syrian shores, or the Holy Land, he will be in constant struggle till the Day of Judgement."



Expansionists have more than once put their eye on Palestine which they attacked with their armies to fulfill their designs on it. Thus it was that the Crusaders came with their armies, bringing with them their creed and carrying their Cross. They were able to defeat the Moslems for a while, but the Moslems were able to retrieve the land only when they stood under the wing of their religious banner, united their word, hallowed the name of Allah and surged out fighting under the leadership of Salah ed-Din al-Ayyubi. They fought for almost twenty years and at the end the Crusaders were defeated and Palestine was liberated.



"Say unto those who believe not, Ye shall be overcome, and thrown together into hell; an unhappy couch it shall be." (The Family of Imran - verse 12).


This is the only way to liberate Palestine. There is no doubt about the testimony of history. It is one of the laws of the universe and one of the rules of existence. Nothing can overcome iron except iron. Their false futile creed can only be defeated by the righteous Islamic creed. A creed could not be fought except by a creed, and in the last analysis, victory is for the just, for justice is certainly victorious.



"Our word hath formerly been given unto our servants the apostles; that they should certainly be assisted against the infidels, and that our armies should surely be the conquerors." (Those Who Rank Themselves - verses 171-172).


Article Thirty-Five:


The Islamic Resistance Movement views seriously the defeat of the Crusaders at the hands of Salah ed-Din al-Ayyubi and the rescuing of Palestine from their hands, as well as the defeat of the Tatars at Ein Galot, breaking their power at the hands of Qataz and Al-Dhaher Bivers and saving the Arab world from the Tatar onslaught which aimed at the destruction of every meaning of human civilization. The Movement draws lessons and examples from all this. The present Zionist onslaught has also been preceded by Crusading raids from the West and other Tatar raids from the East. Just as the Moslems faced those raids and planned fighting and defeating them, they should be able to confront the Zionist invasion and defeat it. This is indeed no problem for the Almighty Allah, provided that the intentions are pure, the determination is true and that Moslems have benefited from past experiences, rid themselves of the effects of ideological invasion and followed the customs of their ancestors.



The Islamic Resistance Movement is Composed of Soldiers:



Article Thirty-Six:


While paving its way, the Islamic Resistance Movement, emphasizes time and again to all the sons of our people, to the Arab and Islamic nations, that it does not seek personal fame, material gain, or social prominence. It does not aim to compete against any one from among our people, or take his place. Nothing of the sort at all. It will not act against any of the sons of Moslems or those who are peaceful towards it from among non-Moslems, be they here or anywhere else. It will only serve as a support for all groupings and organizations operating against the Zionist enemy and its lackeys.



The Islamic Resistance Movement adopts Islam as its way of life. Islam is its creed and religion. Whoever takes Islam as his way of life, be it an organization, a grouping, a country or any other body, the Islamic Resistance Movement considers itself as their soldiers and nothing more.

We ask Allah to show us the right course, to make us an example to others and to judge between us and our people with truth. "O Lord, do thou judge between us and our nation with truth; for thou art the best judge." (Al Araf - Verse 89).



The last of our prayers will be praise to Allah, the Master of the Universe.






On Edit: removed broken links
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. since it's so obvious from their charter that Hamas would never tolerate..
Israel, I wonder why the GOI felt it would be a good idea to support Hamas as an alternative to the PLO?

http://www.upi.com/print.cfm?StoryID=18062002-051845-8272r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Because it was pretty obvious
That the PLO wouldn't tolerate Israel either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. I'm sorry, but...
Edited on Tue Feb-03-04 02:35 PM by plurality
does the PLO charter contain, "Jews are the spawn of Satan and should all be wiped out." in its charter?

Cause regardless of whether the PLO was great or not, I wouldn't look on a group that thinks I'm evil incarnate and should be utterly destroyed as a viable alternative to the other group I don't like.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. OMG !!
i'm speechless !!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. why is that? is the Hamas charter kinder to Jews than that of the PLO?
Edited on Tue Feb-03-04 03:16 PM by plurality
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Not exactly
Edited on Tue Feb-03-04 02:40 PM by Forkboy
does the PLO charter contain, "Jews are the spawn of Satan and should all be wiped out." in its charter?

but it comes close.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. as I said before...
Edited on Tue Feb-03-04 03:16 PM by plurality
I'm not saying the PLO was friend of Israel or anything, but if the Israeli government is going to try and create an alternative to the PLO to deal with that they would at least pick a group that is likely to want to deal with you.

Funding a group that uses the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as a basis for its philosophy seems to me like it would be unlikely to yield a more resonable partner.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Here is the PLO Charter
Edited on Tue Feb-03-04 05:21 PM by Blitz
Interesting portions in bold:

THE PALESTINIAN NATIONAL CHARTER:

Resolutions of the Palestine National Council, July 1-17, 1968
Text of the Charter:

Article 1: Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.

Article 2: Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.

Article 3: The Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to determine their destiny after achieving the liberation of their country in accordance with their wishes and entirely of their own accord and will.

Article 4: The Palestinian identity is a genuine, essential, and inherent characteristic; it is transmitted from parents to children. The Zionist occupation and the dispersal of the Palestinian Arab people, through the disasters which befell them, do not make them lose their Palestinian identity and their membership in the Palestinian community, nor do they negate them.

Article 5: The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian.

Article 6: The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.

Article 7: That there is a Palestinian community and that it has material, spiritual, and historical connection with Palestine are indisputable facts. It is a national duty to bring up individual Palestinians in an Arab revolutionary manner. All means of information and education must be adopted in order to acquaint the Palestinian with his country in the most profound manner, both spiritual and material, that is possible. He must be prepared for the armed struggle and ready to sacrifice his wealth and his life in order to win back his homeland and bring about its liberation.

Article 8: The phase in their history, through which the Palestinian people are now living, is that of national (watani) struggle for the liberation of Palestine. Thus the conflicts among the Palestinian national forces are secondary, and should be ended for the sake of the basic conflict that exists between the forces of Zionism and of imperialism on the one hand, and the Palestinian Arab people on the other. On this basis the Palestinian masses, regardless of whether they are residing in the national homeland or in diaspora (mahajir) constitute - both their organizations and the individuals - one national front working for the retrieval of Palestine and its liberation through armed struggle.

Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. Thus it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it.
They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it.

Article 10: Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war. This requires its escalation, comprehensiveness, and the mobilization of all the Palestinian popular and educational efforts and their organization and involvement in the armed Palestinian revolution. It also requires the achieving of unity for the national (watani) struggle among the different groupings of the Palestinian people, and between the Palestinian people and the Arab masses, so as to secure the continuation of the revolution, its escalation, and victory.

Article 11: The Palestinians will have three mottoes: national (wataniyya) unity, national (qawmiyya) mobilization, and liberation.

Article 12: The Palestinian people believe in Arab unity. In order to contribute their share toward the attainment of that objective, however, they must, at the present stage of their struggle, safeguard their Palestinian identity and develop their consciousness of that identity, and oppose any plan that may dissolve or impair it.

Article 13: Arab unity and the liberation of Palestine are two complementary objectives, the attainment of either of which facilitates the attainment of the other. Thus, Arab unity leads to the liberation of Palestine, the liberation of Palestine leads to Arab unity; and work toward the realization of one objective proceeds side by side with work toward the realization of the other.

Article 14: The destiny of the Arab nation, and indeed Arab existence itself, depend upon the destiny of the Palestine cause. From this interdependence springs the Arab nation's pursuit of, and striving for, the liberation of Palestine. The people of Palestine play the role of the vanguard in the realization of this sacred (qawmi) goal.

Article 15: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the ELIMINATION OF ZIONISM IN PALESTINE. Absolute responsibility for this falls upon the Arab nation - peoples and governments - with the Arab people of Palestine in the vanguard. Accordingly, the Arab nation must mobilize all its military, human, moral, and spiritual capabilities to participate actively with the Palestinian people in the liberation of Palestine. It must, particularly in the phase of the armed Palestinian revolution, offer and furnish the Palestinian people with all possible help, and material and human support, and make available to them the means and opportunities that will enable them to continue to carry out their leading role in the armed revolution, until they liberate their homeland.


Article 16: The liberation of Palestine, from a spiritual point of view, will provide the Holy Land with an atmosphere of safety and tranquility, which in turn will safeguard the country's religious sanctuaries and guarantee freedom of worship and of visit to all, without discrimination of race, color, language, or religion. Accordingly, the people of Palestine look to all spiritual forces in the world for support.

Article 17: The liberation of Palestine, from a human point of view, will restore to the Palestinian individual his dignity, pride, and freedom. Accordingly the Palestinian Arab people look forward to the support of all those who believe in the dignity of man and his freedom in the world.

Article 18: The liberation of Palestine, from an international point of view, is a defensive action necessitated by the demands of self-defense. Accordingly the Palestinian people, desirous as they are of the friendship of all people, look to freedom-loving, and peace-loving states for support in order to restore their legitimate rights in Palestine, to re-establish peace and security in the country, and to enable its people to exercise national sovereignty and freedom.

Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the right to self-determination.

Article 20: The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. NOR DO JEWS CONSTITUTE A SINGLE NATION WITH AN IDENTITY OF ITS OWN; THEY ARE CITIZENS OF THE STATES TO WHICH THEY BELONG.

Article 21: The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by the armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine and reject all proposals aiming at the liquidation of the Palestinian problem, or its internationalization.


Article 22: Zionism is a political movement organically associated with international imperialism and antagonistic to all action for liberation and to progressive movements in the world. It is racist and fanatic in its nature, aggressive, expansionist, and colonial in its aims, and fascist in its methods. Israel is the instrument of the Zionist movement, and geographical base for world imperialism placed strategically in the midst of the Arab homeland to combat the hopes of the Arab nation for liberation, unity, and progress. Israel is a constant source of threat vis-a-vis peace in the Middle East and the whole world. Since the liberation of Palestine will destroy the Zionist and imperialist presence and will contribute to the establishment of peace in the Middle East, the Palestinian people look for the support of all the progressive and peaceful forces and urge them all, irrespective of their affiliations and beliefs, to offer the Palestinian people all aid and support in their just struggle for the liberation of their homeland.

Article 23: The demand of security and peace, as well as the demand of right and justice, require all states to consider Zionism an illegitimate movement, to outlaw its existence, and to ban its operations, in order that friendly relations among peoples may be preserved, and the loyalty of citizens to their respective homelands safeguarded.

Article 24: The Palestinian people believe in the principles of justice, freedom, sovereignty, self-determination, human dignity, and in the right of all peoples to exercise them.

Article 25: For the realization of the goals of this Charter and its principles, the Palestine Liberation Organization will perform its role in the liberation of Palestine in accordance with the Constitution of this Organization.

Article 26: The Palestine Liberation Organization, representative of the Palestinian revolutionary forces, is responsible for the Palestinian Arab people's movement in its struggle - to retrieve its homeland, liberate and return to it and exercise the right to self-determination in it - in all military, political, and financial fields and also for whatever may be required by the Palestine case on the inter-Arab and international levels.

Article 27: The Palestine Liberation Organization shall cooperate with all Arab states, each according to its potentialities; and will adopt a neutral policy among them in the light of the requirements of the war of liberation; and on this basis it shall not interfere in the internal affairs of any Arab state.

Article 28: The Palestinian Arab people assert the genuineness and independence of their national (wataniyya) revolution and reject all forms of intervention, trusteeship, and subordination.

Article 29: The Palestinian people possess the fundamental and genuine legal right to liberate and retrieve their homeland. The Palestinian people determine their attitude toward all states and forces on the basis of the stands they adopt vis-a-vis to the Palestinian revolution to fulfill the aims of the Palestinian people.

Article 30: Fighters and carriers of arms in the war of liberation are the nucleus of the popular army which will be the protective force for the gains of the Palestinian Arab people.

Article 31: The Organization shall have a flag, an oath of allegiance, and an anthem. All this shall be decided upon in accordance with a special regulation.

Article 32: Regulations, which shall be known as the Constitution of the Palestinian Liberation Organization, shall be annexed to this Charter. It will lay down the manner in which the Organization, and its organs and institutions, shall be constituted; the respective competence of each; and the requirements of its obligation under the Charter.

Article 33: This Charter shall not be amended save by a majority of two-thirds of the total membership of the National Congress of the Palestine Liberation Organization at a special session convened for that purpose.

Edited to fix bold/italics
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. sounds much more reasonable than this...
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

and this

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.

and this

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).

and this

It is necessary that scientists, educators and teachers, information and media people, as well as the educated masses, especially the youth and sheikhs of the Islamic movements, should take part in the operation of awakening (the masses). It is important that basic changes be made in the school curriculum, to cleanse it of the traces of ideological invasion that affected it as a result of the orientalists and missionaries who infiltrated the region following the defeat of the Crusaders at the hands of Salah el-Din (Saladin). The Crusaders realised that it was impossible to defeat the Moslems without first having ideological invasion pave the way by upsetting their thoughts, disfiguring their heritage and violating their ideals. Only then could they invade with soldiers. This, in its turn, paved the way for the imperialistic invasion that made Allenby declare on entering Jerusalem: "Only now have the Crusades ended." General Guru stood at Salah el-Din's grave and said: "We have returned, O Salah el-Din." Imperialism has helped towards the strengthening of ideological invasion, deepening, and still does, its roots. All this has paved the way towards the loss of Palestine.

or how about this

"I swear by the holder of Mohammed's soul that I would like to invade and be killed for the sake of Allah, then invade and be killed, and then invade again and be killed." (As related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Tell me again why the Israeli govt. gave these guys money. While the PLO charter isn't too nice to Zionists, it is still political in nature. At least politicians can be negotiated with. How are you supposed to negotiated with people who believe Allah will cast them into hell if they don't kill you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Zionists and Israelis
are one and the same. The PLO rejects the very concept of a Jewish nation or homeland, calls for continued armed struggle and calls for the complete destruction of Israel. The difference between the PLO and Hamas amounts to little more than tactics.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. no, because the PLO leaves the option for a bi-national state for one
Edited on Tue Feb-03-04 05:31 PM by plurality
which is quite different from, "Allah commands you to fight until all the Jews are dead." which is the position of Hamas. Plus even though the PLO does say that it will fight until Zionism is defeated there still remains room for negotiation and compromise that doesn't exist when one is fight against a religous cult like Hamas.

Communism called for the complete destruction for captitalism, yet the US was still able to have dialogue and compromise with the USSR. Meanwhile it can't have dialogue with someone who fight the US because, "Allah commands it."

So Israel supporting Hamas over the PLO is much the same as the US supporting Osama bin Laden over the USSR. However, I could forgive the US decision as lack of forsight since OBL's stated objective was not the complete destruction of the United States and all its citizens while Hamas' stated objective was the "death of all Jews" long before Israel decided to provide funds to it as an alternative to the PLO, which was opposed to it for political and therefore negotiable reasons.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Only if smear is redefined to mean truth
since both Hamas and PLO are racist, xenophobic groups with no toleration for anyone not identical to themselves.

Sophistry or not, the truth is that neither group is worth anything but our outright condemnation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Nonsense
You quite publicly defended the PLO in your earlier post by (wrongly) claiming that they favored a bi-national solution and were thus different from Hamas.

They don't and while they're not as insane in their charter as Hamas, their end goal regarding Jews in the Middle East is not significantly different in text or in action.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. not at all
Edited on Wed Feb-04-04 01:39 PM by plurality
I said that their charter only calls for the end of Zionism (a Jewish state) which means that there is still room for a bi-national state, because NOWHERE in it does it say, "destroy all Jews", which it fairly plainly states in the Hamas charter.

Plus I only gave my interpretation of a document. How you can take that as support for group is beyond me.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Perhaps you just didn't read carefully
where the PLO charter says that nobody but Arabs can be members of their state.

Again, it's like saying the Klan is better than the neo-Nazis so negotiating with the Klan is a good thing. While it is damning with faint praise, it is still praise.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. what about this?
Edited on Wed Feb-04-04 09:57 PM by plurality
Article 6: The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.

and this

Article 16: The liberation of Palestine, from a spiritual point of view, will provide the Holy Land with an atmosphere of safety and tranquility, which in turn will safeguard the country's religious sanctuaries and guarantee freedom of worship and of visit to all, without discrimination of race, color, language, or religion. Accordingly, the people of Palestine look to all spiritual forces in the world for support.

Article 17: The liberation of Palestine, from a human point of view, will restore to the Palestinian individual his dignity, pride, and freedom. Accordingly the Palestinian Arab people look forward to the support of all those who believe in the dignity of man and his freedom in the world.


The PLO's beef wasn't with Jews, their beef was with the people who had lived in the area for centuries being tossed out of their homes so that a Jewish state could be created.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. Note the wording
The wording of the clause specifing which Arabs could be Palestinians includes family and decendants. Article 6 which you quote specifies that only Jews (and NOT their decendants) who lived there prior to the "Zionist invasion" which in PLO literature is generally considered to start between 1890 and 1917 depending on who you listen to.

So, taking the most generous date, they'll allow any Jew who had established residency no later than 1917 to qualify. That'd make the youngest Jew they'd allow to live in their Arab-only state to be 87 years old.

BTW: If you'd bothered to read the document you quote rather than attempt to cherry-pick paragraphs out of context, you'd note that the PLO considers any Arab man and his family and his decendants to be "Palestinians" if they were there prior to 1948. That's the REAL limit of a "Palestinian Identity" and not the "lived in the area for centuries" that you've implied exists. Arafat's considered a "Palestinian" despite being born in Cairo and from a fairly prominent family that didn't consider themselves "Palestinians".

The PLO's beef is with ANY non-Arab living in an Arab-only region. It's xenophobia and racism and nothing else.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. i did read the entire document
And from I saw they consider the 'Zionist invasion' to be at 1947, the creation of Israel. I also see you neglected to mention Article 16 where it states the PLO intends for Palestine to be a nation for all religions, ethnicities, and peoples. Nowhere close to the racist drivel spewing from Hamas. So once again, why did Israel give those guys money?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-04 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. You read with a lack of context
the "Zionist Invasion" always refers to the beginning of immigration of Zionists at the end of the 19th Century.

Perhaps you need to re-read the sections on Palestine being an Arab nation again with that in mind. (Or look at the proposed Constitution to see how things haven't changed).

You might also note that the other Palestinian state (Jordan) specifically allows anyone to become a citizen unless he is a Jew. Jew's are explicitly banned. And have been since the founding in the 1920s.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. this isn't about Jordan, and you're still missing the point
Regardless of what you feel about the PLO charter, is there anything in the Hamas charter that would give the impression that they could be better partners for Israel to negotiate with?

Because from reading both, I can see that the PLO charter, while not being friendly to Israel is at least a logical thought out document, while the Hamas charter reads like it was written by fanatics that in no way could ever be reasoned or negotiated with.

So once again, can you think of any reason why someone would rather negotiate with fanatics over sane people?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-04 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. I've already state it repeatedly
If all you have to deal with are madmen, you deal with madmen.

And, clearly, both groups are quite insane.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Dont these people know you need a short catchy manifesto?
Keripes,this is longer than a Clancy novel (and about as interesting,as in not at all).

I got through Article 7....I think I need a bath :puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
38. But you missed the most insane part!
Skip ahead to Article 22 which says in part:

For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Well we all know how evil those Rotary clubs can be
This shit is crazier than Charles Manson eating Fruit Loops :crazy:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. and that's why I wonder how Israel could have given them support
Edited on Wed Feb-04-04 02:12 PM by plurality
as a viable alternative to the PLO. While the PLO certainly are hostile to Israel (what opponent in war isn't) they still at least sound sane, something I can't say for Hamas.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Let's be fair here
Israel isn't giving them support, Arafat is, the PA is and the PA's friends are...

At best, Israel is saying that these loons are a factor in the equation and they can't be ignored.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. no if you read the link I provided above
It stated that in the 1970's Israel provided direct material support to Hamas to promote them as an alternative to the PLO and Arafat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. And I said "is"
not "was".

I wanted it clear who supports them NOW.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. i see, so you avoided answering my charge by saying something else
Edited on Thu Feb-05-04 09:04 AM by plurality
You answered something I said. And I originialy asked, "Why did Israel support these crazy-assed racist loons instead of the PLO?"

The word "did" implies past behavior. I wanted an explanation for previous actions. What is happening now has no relevance to the question I asked.

So if you're going to respond to my post, please respond to what I said instead of to what you'd like for me to have said.

Once again, why did Israel support Hamas over the PLO, since a cursory glance at their respective charters shows that one is a sane run of the mill national liberation movement and the other is a group of crazy-asses of dubious mental facilities?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-04 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #41
50. i want an honest answer to this
why did Israel support nutcase, anti-Semite Hamas over the PLO?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Well
Given a choice between "nutcases" it's not very productive to work for peace by saying you'll only work with sane groups.

You work with who is there. If they're all insane murderers, you work with insane murderers. And both the PLO and Hamas fit that category (perhaps Hamas is higher on the insanity level but both are clearly insane, perhaps the PLO is higher on the murder level but both are clearly murderers)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. what in the PLO charter shows insanity?
Because it seems quite sane to me, and like any other national liberation movement. While one can certainly disagree with their goals and ideas, I still don't see how anyone could classify them as insane.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. A group that murders children for PR value
is clearly insane. Do you really need more than that?

If so, why?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. the PLO killed children before 1980?
I must have missed the suicide bombing spree of the 70's then.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Yes, the PLO murdered children before 1980
Here's just one example:

The PLO was an umbrella organization for numerous groups (as it is today). Among these froups was the PFLP and the PDLFP, which was an off-shoot of the PFLP. The PDFLP murdered 21 Israeli school children in a single terrorist attack in 1974.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-04 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Yeah - '74 was a really awful year
  • 04/11 - PFLP attacked Qiryat Shemona and 18 died
  • 05/15 - PFLP holds 90 children hostage in Ma'alot 27 dead 70 injured

And the international response was to reward Arafat and company handsomely:
  • 10/21 - France recognizes Arafat
  • 10/28 - Arab summit in Rabat declares PLO "official representative of the Palestinian people"
  • 11/13 - Arafat becomes first non-state leader to address the UN
  • 11/22 - UN grants observer status to the PLO (Only US and Israel oppose)


Face it, 1974 was the year that proved that terrorism works and works well. A lesson Arafat has never forgotten.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. good to know
granted I'm not fully p to date on anything that occured before I was born aside from the full scale wars. And will fully agree that the PLO has employed hideous tactics over the years. However, I still would like to hear a reason for Israel's support of Hamas over the PLO other than, well the PLO's just as crazy.

For even granting that you would like an alternative to the PLO because they are 'crazy' why would you prop up another group that is just as, if not, more crazy than your current enemy. Because the only too possibilities is that you'd either have like you do know, two 'crazy' enemies attacking you, or one 'crazy' enemy attacking you and you're in the same position you were before. Either way, if I was going to prop up an alternative to my enemy I would try and find one that would provide just the slightest improvement over the current one, and Hamas doesn't look like it ever could have provided such an improvement.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-04 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. As I said
Hamas may be more crazy but at the time they were killing less Israeli civilians. Sometimes you have to pick which psychotic to deal with rather than waiting for sanity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-04 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. You apparently missed a LOT
Edited on Fri Feb-06-04 03:19 PM by MikeGalos
Like aircraft hijackings, kidnappings, bombings, hostage taking...

There's more to terrorism than "suicide" bombings and the PLO's invented some and done most.

Here are a few for starters...
  • 11/22/68 - bombing of Mahaneh Yehuda market 12 dead 52 injured
  • 02/18/69 - Attack on El Al plane at Zurich airport 4 dead
  • 02/21/69 - Jerusalem supermarket bombing 2 dead 20 injured
  • 05/22/69 - Assassination attempt on Ben-Gurion
  • 09/09/69 - Hand grenade attack on El Al office in Brussels
  • 10/22/69 - Apartment bombing in Haifa 4 dead
  • 11/27/69 - Hand grenade attack on El Al office in Athens - 1 (child) dead 13 wounded
  • 02/10/70 - Hijacking attempt in Munich 1 dead 8 wounded
  • 05/04/70 - Attack on Israeli Embassy in Paraguay 2 dead


and on, and on, and on. Pick a year and you can find multiple examples of PLO related terrorism and murder.

And that's not even counting the PFLP.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Let's not forget 1972
That was a particularly spectacular year for Arafat & Co. Then, as now, the world did nothing but pay lip-service to express their "outrage."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. yes i did, non-existance can do that to you.
see post #62.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #5
32. My Eyes! My Eyes!
Edited on Wed Feb-04-04 03:23 AM by JasonDeter
Oh good I scrolled past it. That close a look into the mind of a group so severely disturbed is just too frightening for one as gentle and gentile as I. Please don't post that again, the world knows that group is loonie, no need to remind us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. I'll make a deal with you
When nobody defends Hamas as a reasonable group, I'll stop posting what they actually stand for.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
8. Hamas does not deserve to be negotiated with.
Edited on Mon Feb-02-04 05:36 PM by Darranar
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-04-04 03:14 AM
Response to Original message
31. That is exactly why bush* MUST be removed from occupying the WH!!
The man is stupid and a political opportunist. If he really cared about Israel he would stop all relations with saudi arabia which fosters hate towards the United States and quickly move America towards total independence from M.E. oil. Screw Mars bush* I want a car that can run on ANYTHING other than saudi oil!! And hamas, hezbollah and arafat MUST be eradicated and denied earths oxygen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat Apr 20th 2024, 04:14 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC