Sharon: No Jews in Gaza

[Scurrilous]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E0690B78-2C4B-48E1-B919-214AE2A031E4.htm

<snip>

"Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has said he is planning to evacuate 17 Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip.


In an interview on Monday, Sharon told Haaretz newspaper that he had already given the order to plan for the move that will affect 7500 Israeli citizens.

The PM said it was his intention to "carry out an evacuation - sorry, a relocation - of settlements that cause us problems" and of "places that we will not hold onto anyway in a final settlement, like the Gaza settlements".

"I am working on the assumption that in the future there will be no Jews in Gaza."

[Muddleoftheroad]

1. No Jews in the Arab world

Yes, no one likes to point out that the concept of having Jews in the ARAB world is deemed bizarre, but Israel must open its doors to everyone.

What a bizarre double standard.

[Jackie97]

5. Like I said before....

If Jews want to fight for their right to go back to the homes that their parents were driven out of in the 40's, then I'll support that. I just won't support the idea that it's okay to ethically cleanse the Palestinians because they were ethnically cleansed.

[GabysPoppy]

6. I don't want to mis-represent your thoughts

My interpretation of your comment is that the United Nations was in error 50 some years ago and you are against the establishment of the State of Israel.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Jackie97]

9. I'm not really against having an Israeli state.

I'm just against how it was done. It was not okay to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians in the way that Ben-Gurion did. Israel argues that the Arabs started the war, but did the majority of them really participate? I doubt it. I want to make a bet that the new Israeli government used the uprising as a chance to drive out most of the Palestinians.

Not that I agree with starting a war over this, but I can understand why the Arabs did an uprising in the late 40's. That was their home for centuries. Now, Jews were going to come and make it the "Jewish state". To them, that probably meant that the place would be ran by Jews and that they would be second class citizens. It turns out that they were right. Arab Israelis are second class citizens.

Please understand that I'm very critical of nationalism in general. It's not just Israel. I've criticized past movements for black nationalism, especially Garveyism. I really criticized it because Garvey wanted to westernize a part of Africa to make a home for the African Americans. He thought it was okay to move in on another culture because he thought that they needed the "superior" Western way of living. Bad! It formed a massive movement though, because blacks were being lynched left and right at the time. Of course they wanted their own home, just like the Jews wanted theirs. Once again, I wouldn't be against a national home for the blacks, so long as it didn't hurt another culture.

Now, let's look at the Kurds. That's another group of ethnically cleansed people. I'd have no problem with an independent Kurdistan forming, if the Kurds didn't have to take chunks out of two or three countries to do it. This would also put out several people of their homes, their culture, and possibly of being treated like first class citizens.

I don't mind the idea of certain minority groups getting their own homes if they want to, but I do mind other groups of people getting persecuted in the name of that cause. In the Palestinians case, they were ethnically cleansed out of their own homes because they were driven out.

I have to say that while I'm not against an Israeli state existing (especially now that it does exist), I'm also not against a bi-national state forming. Some argue that it's anti-Zionist. If it is, then so be it. I want whatever will bring peace.

[Muddleoftheroad]

11. Whatever will bring peace

A binational state would never bring peace. It would mean civil war. Endless, deadly civil war.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

16. yes, like black and white americans will never live in peace

with each other

another king truism I believe. I guess you didn't have the same dream.

(yes folks, sarcasm off)

B

[Jackie97]

17. MLK had a dream.....

In order for his dream to come true, others have to have the same dream.

I have a dream that one day Jews, Arab Muslims, Arab Christians, Christians and Muslims in general, Asians, Latinos, and everybody else in the world will hold hands and that nobody will care about the color of anybody's skin, their nationality, or their ethnic group.

I have a dream that one day, people will be judged not by their race, ethnic group, or nationality, but by the content of their character.

[Les Claypool]

18. Agreed.

A bi-national state seems most compatible with that dream.

[MikeGalos]

7. Isn't it funny how

the "Palestinians" call for an ethnically pure Palestine with no rights for any non-Arab while Israel has one of the most diverse populations in the world (with More religious diversity than the US, for example) with legally guaranteed rights for all citizens regardless of race, religion, gender or sexual orientation and yet there are people (even people on here!) who can claim with a straight face that the "Palestinians" aren't racist and the Israelis are...

[GabysPoppy]

8. I disagree with you

It's NOT funny. It's frighteningly scary.

[Jackie97]

10. Would you like to back that up?

You know? The idea that Israel has one of the most diverse populations in the world and has more religious diversity than the US.

[Aidoneus]

12. that's a somewhat ridiculous claim, fyi

there are many that I could think of off hand; sticking to the region, Iran or Daghestan for instance.

[MikeGalos]

13. Sure

Check any reasonable geographic source. For example, the CIA World Factbook.

Israel has a dominent religion that makes up 81.1% of the population
Minority religions are 1/5th of the population.

The US has a dominent religion that makes up 93.3% of the population
Minority religions are 1/15th of the population.

If you ignore a few major cities, you find that most of the US is roughly 99% various varieties of Christians.

Details:
US: 93.3% Christian, 2.2% Jewish, 4.4% Other
Israel: 81.1% Jewish, 14.6% Moslem, 2.1% Christian, 2.2% Other

[Forkboy]

14. Why ignore a few major cities?

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jack Rabbit]

2. Ha'aretz link

From Ha'aretz (Tel Aviv)
Dated Monday February 2

PM: I gave order to plan evacuation of 17 Gaza settlements
By Yoel Marcus, Haaretz Correspondent

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon says he has given orders to plan for the removal of 17 settlements in Gaza.
"I have given an order to plan for the evacuation of 17 settlements in the Gaza Strip," Sharon said Monday in an interview with Haaretz columnist Yoel Marcus. (The full interview with Sharon will appear Tuesday in Haaretz.)
"It is my intention to carry out an evacuation - sorry, a relocation - of settlements that cause us problems and of places that we will not hold onto anyway in a final settlement, like the Gaza settlements," the prime minister added.
Sharon, who informed the Likud faction of the plan at a closed-doors meeting later Monday, also mentioned the problematic nature of evacuating settlements in Gaza.
"We are talking of a population of 7,500 people. It's not a simple matter. We are talking of thousands of square kilometers of hothouses, factories and packing plants. People there who are third-generation.

Read more.

[Jack Rabbit]

3. . . . and the BBC . . .

From BBC Online
Dated Monday February 2 13:13 GMT (5:13 am PST)

Sharon orders Gaza pullout plan

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon says he has ordered a plan for the evacuation of all Jewish settlers from Gaza, according to an Israeli paper.
He told Haaretz that he intended to relocate all "problematic" settlements in Palestinian territories.
"I am working on the assumption that in the future there will be no Jews in Gaza," he was quoted as saying.
But Mr Sharon gave no timetable for the withdrawal and said he would want the agreement of the settlers first.

Read more.

[Gimel]

4. "Plans are plans"

as shimon Peres said for the news camera today. This removal said to be contrary to the Road Map. Therefore, the plans would not be executed until the point where Sharon stipulated a few weeks ago, that he will consider the Road Map inoperable, and begin a unilateral pull-out plan.

Since the logistics involved the the mass movement of homes and families, some have been there for three generations, and even Netzarim was established 20 years ago.

[Les Claypool]

20. Yes. On somone else's land.

You make it seem like the settlements were legitimate.

Note: I don't think the settlements should go anywhere. I think Israel should annex the West Bank and Gaza and make all inhabitants equal citizens. Then the Palestinians can move into the settlements if they so choose.

One bi-national state.

[Wonk]

21. Gaza's settlers dig in their heels - Guardian

(snip)

Maayan Yaday and her husband were hauling the packing cases into their new home as Ariel Sharon announced his intention to clear them and all the other Jewish settlers out of the Gaza Strip.

Yesterday, Mrs Yaday laughed off his plan and predicted she would be living in the tiny Gaza settlement of Nezer Hazani long after the prime minister was replaced.

She is convinced of her historical and religious claim to the land, even though five years ago she was Croatian and Catholic.

(snip)

But from the edge of the settlements it is possible to see into the seething Rafah refugee camp, where for weeks military bulldozers have been destroying hundreds of homes, ostensibly in the search for "terrorists", and where the army's bullets routinely kill children.

That, say the settlers, is unfortunate, but the Jews (and recently converted to Judaism, formerly Catholic cruise ship cocktail waitresses - Wonk) are the real victims.

more...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1140424,00.html

[Wonk]

22. What? Not a single comment about this?

:shrug: