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Is It Anti-Semitic to Criticize Israel? Part I

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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 07:07 AM
Original message
Is It Anti-Semitic to Criticize Israel? Part I
Jared Israel responding to an Email.

First the Email he received.

"When Israel gets criticized some people become defensive and say the critic is an anti-Semite. I wonder if this is how you might feel about an article by John Catalinotto of the ANSWER coalition . They had a rally addressed by an Israeli Arab leader named Mohamed Kanana. He criticized Israel for its apartheid policies giving the example that Arabs are 20% of Israel but that this 'Twenty percent of the population own only 3 percent of the land.' I have been impressed by your exposes on the PLO, but now I would like to see an even-handed expose of the other side, or do you believe that because Mohamed Kanana criticizes Israeli apartheid this means he is an anti-Semite?"

He responds.

Mr. Schultz has asked a loaded question. First, the word 'criticize' suggests honest intent, as when one says, "Don't get defensive; listen to my criticism." But Mr. Kanana, whom Mr. Schultz is quoting, is not criticizing Israel; he is lying about the facts.

Second, the statement, "Mohamed Kanana criticizes Israeli apartheid," assumes that Apartheid does in fact exist in Israel. As I will show, this is absurd.

snip

Is Mohamed Kanana factually wrong about Arab land ownership in Israel?

No, not factually wrong. Israeli Arabs do make up 20% of the population and they do own 3% of the land. So then how is he lying? Cleverly - by omission. He leaves out a crucial fact: Jews make up 80% of the population of Israel, but own only 3.5% of the land.

Consider the figures:

Arabs: 20% of Israeli population; 3% of land owned in Israel.

Jews: 80% of Israeli population; 3.5% of land owned in Israel.

Do you see? Jews and Arabs own about the same amount of land even though there are four times as many Jews as Arabs. Or to put it differently, Israeli Arabs own more than twice as much land as you would expect based on their percentage of the population. This is the opposite of what Mr. Kanana communicated with his "twenty percent own only 3%" argument. Indeed, if we were to follow his logic it would be the Israeli Jews, not Arabs, who suffer 'Apartheid'.

more here

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=3282

More by Jared Israel and his website can be found here.

http://www.tenc.net/





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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. So who owns the other 93.5% of the land?
If Jews own 3.5% and Arabs 3%, who owns the rest of the land? Sorry, but I'm confused.
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Please read the linked story
You will get that answer and many more answers.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Had link trouble
but it worked the second time.

Ok, so the rest is state owned. I have another question, then. How much Arab representation is there in the Israeli government? Is the state-owned land ever used for Arabs? Didn't see anything about this in the article.

One other question: what do you think of Jewish Israelis who want to have a peaceful solution to the Palestinian question? Of the Jews who have refused to serve in the occupied territories? How are these people viewed?
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Response
In my opinion ALL Jewish Israelis want to have a peaceful solution to the Palestinian question.

As to your second question. How are these people viewed? You don't say by who. So I will not answer for the WHO you are referring to.

As for your first paragraph's questions, I would suggest googling for your answers.
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #6
26. All?
Even those advocating "transfer"?
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. War is Peace
(Some British guy)
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. We may not approve or agree on all of the suggestions
But YES, ALL Israelis want PEACE. Why do you disagree with that conclusion?
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Dark Star Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 07:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. According to 2 African American heroes,
the Reverend MLK Jr and Congressman John Lewis (D-GA) and me, the answer is a resounding "yes":

"During an appearance at Harvard University shortly before his death, a student stood up and asked King to address himself to the issue of Zionism. The question was clearly hostile. King responded, "When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism."


http://www.house.gov/johnlewis/oe_i_have_a_dream.html
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Not all Jews are Zionists, though
To think that would be the same as saying all African Americans are followers of Elijah Mohammed. I have Jewish friends both in and out of Isreal who are working for a peaceful solution to the problems there. They do not agree with the Sharon policies. Does this make them anti-Semite?
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Your question is unanswerable
without knowing anything else about your friends. I don't agree with ALL of Sharon's policies and that doesn't make me anti-Semitic, so to try to categorize your friends is just not a question that can be answered based on just one fact.
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Dark Star Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Absolutely correct.
Not all Jews are Zionists, however, my post to which you referred doesn't make that claim you apparently have read into it.

Rep. Lewis was speaking about anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism and was not addressing Likud or Sharon.

Your question is therefore not responsive to my post and I therefore see no reason to address it.

Thank you for your post, however.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Not all pro-Palestinian Jews are anti-Zionist.
There is a difference difference between a Jew who protests against Israeli policy for peace and a Jew who protests the existence of Israel.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Israel can still exist as a state without a state religion.
I don't think that not being Zionist means that you have to argue for the overthrow of the State of Israel. One can certainly argue instead for reforms eliminating state distinctions on the basis of religion and race.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. I don't think that the concept of Zionism is well understood.
I'm not really a Zionist, but I don't believe in necessarily overthrowing Israel. However, I'm not closed minded to a bi-national state. That's why I don't call myself a Zionist (because many Zionists would say that I'm not one probably).

Anyway, I think what needs to be understood is that even though Zionism is supposedly backed up in the Jewish religion, this started out as a secular movement. Herzl was secular. Ben-Gurion was secular. I even got told once by a holocaust survivor that a lot of the people who came to Israel were more secular than religious. Zionism wasn't talking about the idea of starting up a Jewish state for religious reasons, but for safety reasons instead.

As for race, in theory, the Israeli Declaration of Independence states that every citizen is to be treated equally. I think that this could be challenged since Jews can immigrate there just for being Jews and others have to put more work into it. However, the citizens are supposed to be equal in theory.
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. If they believe
that there should be a Jewish state, then it makes them Zionists.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Dark Star Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Hi, mike_c!
No, Israel isn't a rascist, apartheid state; but thanks for posting.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Not for a lack of trying
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Freedom of Speech Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Snappy comeback!
Israel still isn't an apartheid state and I would imagine your response will go the way of #9, if there's even-handedness and equality in this forum :eyes: .
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. ??
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meti57b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
12. excellent article!! ...
... telling it like it is.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
13. Does state-owned land go to Jews preferentially?
Doesn't a state entity called the "Jewish Land Agency" control much land. I would think that it is reasonable to include this land in the figure of "Jewish land." If there is state-owned land going to Israeli Arabs preferentially, then the same standard should hold. I think it's a legitimate concern if there is not equal opportunity in housing availability.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
14. Supporting a unitary state is not anti-Semitic.
I don't think that opposing Zionism is anti-Semitic. I don't think that supporting the "right of return" for those who left or fled Israel/Palestine since the 1940's is anti-Semitic. I also don't think that supporting a unitary state including the West Bank and Gaza Strip (or whatever we want to call these), and making the inhabitants state citizens is anti-Semitic.

Opposing maintaining the "Jewish character" of the Israeli state is not anti-Semitic.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. It ain't happenin', regardless.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. That fine to say, but
I think that it is entirely possible that a non-Jewish majority will one day emerge in the State of Israel. That most certainly could happen.

My point was merely that, although the position I mentioned is not a Zionist one, it is not anti-Semitic. I think it's a position that deserves a response in any event, other than summarily dismissing it.
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Freedom of Speech Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. You are correct. You do deserve a response.
So, as a Jew, I'll do it with a question:

Why is Israel the only country in the world expected to join in its own destruction?

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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-06-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. If "self-preservation" means abhoring a group on the basis of race...
...then it is most certainly not worthwhile morally. However, I think that Israel can exist even if there is an Arab majority. Certainly the United States will also exist regardless of ongoing demographic changes. Your argument has certainly been applied to other nations, but I think it would equally lacking in merit in these cases.
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
35. Well, as I've said before
If you oppose ALL nationalist movements and national states, like, say France, Germany, India, Palestine, or Tibet and feel that ALL nation states should be disbanded then opposing a Jewish nation is not anti-Semitic.

If you only oppose a Jewish nationalist movement but support any other nationalist movements past or present, then perhaps the question of singling out the Jews for "special treatment" deserves some introspection about motives.

I have no idea which camp you fall into. We've had people on here advocating both positions.

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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
15. I understand the argument about owning land (edited).
Edited on Mon Feb-02-04 01:09 PM by Jackie97
Israel only allows eight percent of the land to be owned after all. However, I want to bring up the fact that when Israel became a state, that they took land already owned by Palestinians for their Socialist like intention.

I once got information once (and presented it on here) that said that Arabs have a hard time getting the government to lease them land. What would you say to that one?

Edited: About the accusation that Israel is a racist state, people are not getting that from how Israeli Arabs are treated. They're getting that from how Arabs that aren't granted Israeli citizenship are being treated. Israel claims that land belongs to them, but yet won't grant equal rights to the Palestinians living in the West Bank and the Gaza strip. The Israeli government keeps them all locked up in their houses and to certain areas, as if they were animals. That is not better treatment than what they would get in an Arab state. Also, just because Arab Israelis are treated better in Israel, doesn't that make them as treated equally to the Jews there? From what I understand, the Israeli government has a serious problem with equality, and not just concerning the Arabs. It appears that certain forms of Orthodox Jews are getting better treatment over other Jews. That's not equality. No state has equality, but I want to point out that Israel does not because the writer pretends that they do.
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
22. LOL
Edited on Mon Feb-02-04 07:40 PM by tinnypriv

We had this site posted here before, with the most idiotic "history" of Israel/Palestine seen yet (though the lying was quite sophisticated).

That's saying something.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. On the contrary, this is one of the best sites on the Web for
truth and democracy. (And unlike with my posts about Sharon, the fence, or the Dersh, I am not being even one bit facetious.)
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-02-04 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. There is actually some interesting stuff on that site.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
32. This is what we've come to expect from Arutz Sheva
Edited on Tue Feb-03-04 10:36 AM by Jack Rabbit
The piece is trash. It's only purpose is to attempt to limit discourse.

The author is loading his own questions. First, he sets up a straw man argument concerning housing policy. He doesn't do a very good job of it, either. Mr. Israel deflects the criticism of Israel toward policy in Israel proper, where there are problems but not insurmountable ones. He then proceeds to define Apartheid in such a narrow way that it would only apply only to states whose segregation is based on some sort of master race ideology; he then cites Martin Luther King as a defender of Israel.

Mohamed Kanana notwithstanding, most people who criticize Israel in a way to describe it as an Apartheid or an Apartheid-like state are not criticizing Israel's policies toward housing inside the Green Line but Israel's administration of the Occupied Territories. For example, one might read the report on the settlements by the Israel human rights organization, B'Tselem. The report concludes:

Israel has created in the Occupied Territories a regime of separation based on discrimination, applying two separate systems of law in the same area and basing the rights of individuals on their nationality. This regime is the only one of its kind in the world, and is reminiscent of distasteful regimes from the past, such as the Apartheid regime in South Africa.

The authors of this report must certainly be in hot water with Mr. Israel. How dare they use the term Apartheid when they present nothing to suggest that Israel has an official doctrine of racial superiority?

The problem is that Mr. Israel's definition of Apartheid is bogus. Apartheid is defined not by the behavior of the authorities, not by their rationale for the behavior. The International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid defines it as follows:

For the purpose of the present Convention, the term "the crime of apartheid", which shall include similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practiced in southern Africa, shall apply to the following inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them:
  • (a) Denial to a member or members of a racial group or groups of the right to life and liberty of person:
    • (i) By murder of members of a racial group or groups;
    • (ii) By the infliction upon the members of a racial group or groups of serious bodily or mental harm, by the infringement of their freedom or dignity, or by subjecting them to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment;
    • (iii) By arbitrary arrest and illegal imprisonment of the members of a racial group or groups;
  • (b) Deliberate imposition on a racial group or groups of living conditions calculated to cause its or their physical destruction in whole or in part;
  • (c) Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognized trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association;;
  • (d) Any measures including legislative measures, designed to divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of a racial group or groups, the prohibition of mixed marriages among members of various racial groups, the expropriation of landed property belonging to a racial group or groups or to members thereof;
  • (e) Exploitation of the labour of the members of a racial group or groups, in particular by submitting them to forced labour;
  • (f) Persecution of organizations and persons, by depriving them of fundamental rights and freedoms, because they oppose apartheid.


We may argue whether or not the practice of displacing Palestinian Arabs in the Occupied Territories in order to make way for Jewish-only housing accessed on segregated roads is Apartheid, or, as B'Tselem says, "reminiscent" of Apartheid. However, at least then we'll be on the right track. We shouldn't let Mr. Israel's red herring about an ideology based on pseudo-scientific eugenics detract us from that path.

In conclusion, Mr. Israel cites Martin Luther King's defense of Israel. Dr. King died less than a year after the Six Day War and did not live to see the settlement activity criticized B'Tselem in the above-cited report. It is awfully presumptuous for Mr. Israel or anyone else to state that Dr. King would not have said something similar to the B'Tselem report about Israel's settlement policies. Dr. King's statement in 1968 may be taken as an endorsement of the Zionist project in its broadest sense. However, in no way should the words of one who has been dead for 36 years be used as a definitive moral pronouncement on specific issues arising from the present state of affairs by partisans of either side of the conflict.

Criticism of Israel is not inherently anti-Semitic. The ability to cite specific cases of anti-Semitic criticism of Israel does not change that. The fact is that Israeli Jews and Jews throughout the world have differing views on the conflict and many criticize Israel in one way or another. Uri Avnery is every bit as much a Jew, an Israeli and -- insofar as he would not support the destruction of Israel itself -- every bit as much a Zionist as is Benny Elon or Jared Israel. If a former member of the Israeli Knesset with Mr. Avnery's credentials can criticize Israel, so can the rest of us. As long as that criticism is directed at behavior at any state and not specifically at a state because it is a Jewish state, then that criticism is not anti-Semitic.

To suggest that it is anti-Semitic is merely an attempt to unjustly smear one's opponents in a debate. Such tactics are contemptible.
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Mr. Rabbit
First of all Arutz Sheva took the article from the author's web site. That also was linked to the original post. Starting by attacking the messenger I would have expected from others but not from you.

Secondly you have listed examples "a to f" as examples of the term "the crime of apartheid", yet in no case do you then specifically attribute them to Israel. They are left hanging in mid air to dangle as a blanket accusation. Once again something I have come to expect from others but definitely not from yourself. Your posts are way more concise and fair minded.

Thirdly you have trotted out MLK and insinuated that he would have agreed with a report from B'Tselem. Neither of us have the knowledge or understanding of how he would react today and would be rather presumptuous on our part to make any such statement. To make an assertion that he would think one way is to disagree with John Lewis who knew him a lot better than you or I.

Finally I agree with you on your last point. It is not anti-Semitic to criticize a policy of the GOI. However when the criticism extends to EVERYTHING done or said by the GOI by the same person or group, I suggest a hint of anti-Semitism in the air.

Where there is smoke, there is usually fire.

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-03-04 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
34. Not it's not
Anymore than it's anti-American to criticize Bush and his policies.
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