Democrats support Israel

[Herschel]

Democratic lawmakers have asked President Bush to support Israel’s security fence. Thirty-eight members of the U.S. House of Representatives signed a letter to President Bush on Thursday expressing concern about “mixed messages” from the administration on the fence, and urging a strong U.S. brief before the International Court of Justice, which will take up the fence issue next month.

cut

http://www.jta.org/brknews.asp?id=94130

Marvelous news. America's love for little Israel knows no party lines.

[KingofSwords]

1. they're deceived

The security fence is being erected in Palestinian territory. I support Israel's right to put a security fence on their border but they shouldn't be dissecting Palestinian territories in half. Also this security fence should accomodate Palestinians who cross the border to work in Israel.

[Muddleoftheroad]

7. Crossing the border

While the fence does allow for border crossings, I don't think there should be any Palestinians crossing the border to work in Israel until the terror ends. They remain a major security threat.

[KingofSwords]

18. Cutting them off from jobs will only make more desperate people

Who will resort to terrorism. A complete end to terrorism shouldn't be a condition put on the PA because Palestinian extremists will commit terrorism if they know it'll keep Israel from peace agreements.

[La_Serpiente]

2. I sure would like to see a list of these Democratic lawmakers

[Herschel]

4. Indeed

They deserve our gratitude.

[La_Serpiente]

5. No, they deserve your gratitude

n/t

[Herschel]

6. Which they have

along with the gratitude of most Democrats.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

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[pacifictiger]

3. sorry,

but even though I have many friends of the jewish faith, I have never understood why a country that values separation of church and state, can continually favor a country whose very founding was based on the premise of one particular religion, effectivly suppressing the rights of a differing religion in the same area. If you were to really look at the unbiased history leading up to its foundation, it was as much to do with protecting the suez canal trade route as anything else during the WW1 era, followed by the post holocaust sympathy vote, and a presence desired in the area because of middle east oil, which meant industrial power. Most people are unaware that in the 30's it was the jewish immigrants creating chaos by stealing munitions from the british military and fighting palestinian residents for land and and a cultural way of life. Many in the british commission warned of escalating chaos if immigration was not curbed, but the race for trade and oil access spoke louder. Now, it is a continued reason for military might and mammon, and true spirituality has little to do with it.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

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[Muddleoftheroad]

10. That, of course, is wildly untrue

There are posters here who criticize Israel who are not called anti-Semitic. Then there are those who do and who disappear because their comments go beyond the pale.

[The Magistrate]

11. Your History, Mr. Tiger, Is Rather Poor

It is true that England sought control of Palestine as a buffer for Suez. This desire, however, was quite seperate from support for Zionism; that was merely one arrow in the quiver of means for control of the region, and one that did not enjoy the whole-hearted support of either the English government, after the fall of Mr. Lloyd-George's ministry in 1922, or of the civil and military authorities charged with maintaining England's control of the Palestine Mandate.

Your statements concerning conditions in the thirties are so divorced from actuality as to raise questions of whether mere ignorance, or a concious desire to distort is in play. The thirties were indeed a violent decade in Mandatory Palestine, and very little of that violence emanated from Jews. An Arab Nationalist campaign commenced in the spring of 1929, of which the best-known feature was the mobbing of the Jewish community in Hebron, broke a half-decade of relative calm. The general rising this inaugurated received fresh impetus that autumn when Arabs tried and convicted for murder at Hebron began to be hanged. After guerrilla activity had been largely suppressed during 1930, a general strike was enforced by Arab Nationalist gunmen, which lasted into the next year. Once it waned, fresh waves of violence against Jews and the English authorities commenced in 1933, and were renewed in the Arab Revolt, begun in 1935 and continued on into 1937. This outbreak received direct support from both Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. It was of sufficient scale to convince the English government that the only course offering a prospect of maintaining control in Palestine was appeasement of the Arab Nationalist leadership. You are citing some portion of a summary of the Peel Report, it seems, but show little awareness of the events with which it was in the main concerned. The reason most people are unaware of "jewish immigrants creating chaos by stealing munitions from the british military and fighting palestinian residents for land" is that these were indeed minor ingredients in the chaos. There was, indeed, no fighting between Jews and Arabs directly over possesion of land: Jews on occassion purchased land, legally, and Arab Nationalist bands on occassion attempted to drive them off their property. You wil be unable to cite a single instance of land seized by violence without legal title by Jews prior to the war of '48.

[pacifictiger]

12. the muslim unrest goes back

to unresolved issues regarding jewish immigration and a continuing underground movement with origins linked with the fall of the ottoman empire. The zionist movement, started by a jewish german industrialist actually at one time had looked at argentina as an alternative to palestine when the turkish government had refused to give palestine its independance. England had even offered them 6000 square miles to settle in Uganda.

[The Magistrate]

15. You Will Have To Do Better Than That, Mr. Tiger

You have barely begun to scratch the surface, and your comments on the latter days of the Ottoman do not indicate any firm grasp of the subject. Hertzl was no industrialist, but a journalist, and despite various proposals being bruited about, including one in Sinai, the World Zionist Congress roundly rejected any alternative to the historic homeland. There is not, of course, any great deal to be gained by raking over the tangled history of the question, but it should be done with honest information, if it is to be done at all.

[Gimel]

16. It's founding

was based on the anti-premise of the Holocaust and persecution of the Jews, whatever their religious convictions might be. Religion itself is a secondary matter to that in the founding of the state. Theodore Herzl, the father of Zionism, was not a religious person.

[IndianaGreen]

14. I wouldn't be surprised if these same Congresspeople

also voted for PATRIOT Act and for the Iraq War Resolution.

[wuushew]

19. It took some digging but here are the names

http://www.house.gov/waxman/pdfs/pdf_icj_jan_29_let.pdf
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2002/roll455.xml

Red indicates they voted yes on IWR
Blue indicates voted no on IWR
Black indicates not listed/not member of 104th congress




Henry A. Waxman
Robert T. Matsui
Robert Menedez
Steny H. Hoyer
Howard L. Berman
Robert E. Andrews
Eliot L. Engel
Brad Carson
Peter Deutsch
Jerrold Nadler
Carolyn b. Maloney
Joseph Crowley
Benjamin L. Cardin
Kendrick B. Meck
Dennis A. Cardoza
Anthony D. Weiner
Michael R. McNulty
Jim Marshall
Denise L. Majette
Steve Israel
Carolyn McCarthy
Madeleine Z. Bordallo
David Scott
Shelly Berkley
Jim Langevin
Artur Davis

[MikeGalos]

21. Nice to know that at least these Democrats

have the guts to stand with the Democratic Party against Bush and his Saudi allies.

To quote the Democratic Party Platform: "Our special relationship with Israel is based on the unshakable foundation of shared values and a mutual commitment to democracy..."

Thanks to these brave 26 Democrats!

[IndianaGreen]

37. It is time to change the Democratic Party platform

by putting a plank calling for Israel to return to the pre-1967 borders, and for Palestinian independence and self-determination.

The era of colonialism is over!

[JasonDeter]

22. I'd be willing to bet the majority of these folk support Israel

and her right to her claim to live safely within her historical borders. I intend to send the ones on this list who have email or hard addresses my thanks.

[Dark Star]

25. Excellent idea!

I will do so as well.

Thanks again.

[IndianaGreen]

38. If by "historical" you mean "biblical" you ain't gonna get it!

Marx was right when he referred to religion as the opiate of the masses.

[wuushew]

23. i actually missed a few

there are 38 names check the link

[Dark Star]

24. Thank you for your hard work in

addressing another poster's question.

It's just wonderful to see all the democrats in support of Israel, which, BTW is in compliance with the democratic party platform as written for years!

:yourock:

[JasonDeter]

17. I second it!! But this is a political year and bush*s legacy is at stake.

I would bet he won't.

[Dark Star]

26. Oh, no, I agree.

Bush doesn't have the brains to understand how important the peace fence is!

[JasonDeter]

30. He would destroy a country who was not a threat to the US

but not understand the Palestinian terrorist organizations goal is to destroy Israel and the fence is a small price to pay for the safety and peace of mind to all Israeli's. bush* is a national embarrassment, a worldwide joke and I'm ashamed to say he is pResident.

[MikeGalos]

20. For those ignorant of the Democratic view of Israel

Here's the appropriate section of the Democratic Party Platform. For anyone who claims to speak for Democrats, it's kind of nice to know what the Democratic Party thinks...

In areas where conflict has raged, comprehensive peace agreements are the foundation for lasting security. Bill Clinton and Al Gore have actively pursued peaceful resolutions to conflicts across the world and have been prepared to go the extra mile on behalf of negotiators seeking peace. Al Gore and the Democratic Party are fundamentally committed to the security of our ally, Israel, and the creation of a comprehensive, just, and lasting peace between Israel and its neighbors. We helped broker the Israel-Jordan Peace Treaty, the Wye River accords, and the Sharm el-Sheik Memorandum, and will continue to work with all parties to make progress towards peace. Our special relationship with Israel is based on the unshakable foundation of shared values and a mutual commitment to democracy, and we will ensure that under all circumstances, Israel retains the qualitative military edge for its national security. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and should remain an undivided city accessible to people of all faiths. In view of the government of Israel's courageous decision to withdraw from Lebanon, we believe special responsibility now resides with Syria to make a contribution toward peace. The recently-held Camp David summit, while failing to bridge all the gaps between Israel and the Palestinians, demonstrated President Clinton's resolve to do all the United States could do to bring an end to that long conflict. Al Gore, as president, will demonstrate the same resolve. We call on both parties to avoid unilateral actions, such as a unilateral declaration of Palestinian statehood, that will prejudge the outcome of negotiations, and we urge the parties to adhere to their joint pledge to resolve all differences only by good faith negotiations.

[David__77]

27. I like the California Democratic platform...

"Peace in the Middle East. Champion human rights and democracy for all people as the pillars of our policy in the Middle East. Maintain our commitment to ensuring the security and well-being of the State of Israel and to supporting the U.S.-Israel special relationship. Support the Palestinian goals of peace, justice, security and a viable independent state. Support the Israeli goals of peace and security. Encourage direct negotiations as agreed to in the Oslo Accords and other subsequent agreements signed by the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority to bridge the gap for peace and justice, which will in turn be the ultimate security for both peoples. Insist on adherence to the Mitchell and Tenet plans, and support efforts to resume peace negotiations. It is especially important that the Israeli Government and the Palestinian Authority make every possible effort to arrest those engaged in terrorist activities within their borders and that they do everything in their power to prevent future acts of terror."

I don't think the issue of Jerusalem should be breached in a platform.

[IndianaGreen]

39. There are other points of view that reject colonialism and apartheid

as the following 1998 article illustrates:

Fifty years since Israel's founding
By Bill Vann
29 May 1998

Within Israel's birth and evolution are concentrated the great unresolved contradictions of the 20th century. Its essential origins lie in one of history's greatest crimes against humanity, the Nazi Holocaust. The extermination of six million European Jews was in turn the terrible price paid for the crisis of the working class movement brought on by the Stalinist degeneration of the Soviet Union and the Communist International. Stalinism's crimes and its domination over the workers movement prevented the working class from putting an end to the crisis-ridden capitalist system, which found in fascism its last line of defense.

The defeats of the working class, the crimes of Stalinism and the horrors of the Holocaust created the historical conditions for Israel's creation and the Zionist movement's largely successful attempt, aided both by US imperialism and Stalinism, to equate Zionism with world Jewry. It was a movement and a state founded ultimately on discouragement and despair. Stalinism's betrayals produced disillusionment in the socialist alternative that had exercised such a powerful appeal to Jewish working people all over the world. The crimes of German fascism were presented as the ultimate proof that it was impossible to vanquish anti-Semitism in Europe or anywhere else. Zionism's answer was to get a state and an army and beat the historical oppressors of the Jewish people at their own game.

The tragic irony of this supposed solution is Israel's association of the Jewish people--traditionally and historically connected with the struggle for tolerance and freedom--with the brutal suppression of another oppressed population.

David Ben-Gurion read out the declaration of Israel's independence on May 14, 1948, the day before Britain's mandate over Palestine was to expire. Within less than a year, Israeli military forces had succeeded in carving out the country's present internationally-recognized borders, while more than three-quarters of a million Palestinian Arabs were driven from their homes in a systematic campaign of terrorism and intimidation.

http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/may1998/isrl-m29.shtml

[IndianaGreen]

40. Here is the Green platform which is more democratic than the Democrats

4. We endorse a reordering of priorities as to how our nation can best achieve national security. The Green Party asserts that security and liberty prosper together. HUMAN RIGHTS are the foundation of EMERGING DEMOCRACIES and international relations. We argue that the support of democracy, human rights and respect for international law should be the cornerstone of American foreign policy.

5. We endorse ending support for repressive regimes. We believe the United States and all nations should abide by World Court decisions. We support the right of habeas corpus being available to any person anywhere whose imprisonment violates fundamental norms of international law.

<snip>

8. INTERNATIONAL LAW and INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS are inseparable. We do not support a world-view that relies on accommodation of tyranny or repressive regimes.

<snip>

10. We support peace in the MIDDLE EAST based on respect for civil liberties and human rights.

http://www.gp.org/platform/2000/index.html#foreign

[GabysPoppy]

41. Isn't this the same party that helped elect GWB?

[IndianaGreen]

42. In your dreams!

It was the gun issue that beat the Democrats in states like Tennessee. Gore should have won New Hampshire, but he didn't. Lieberman should not have thrown the towel on military ballots cast after Election Day, but he did.

Gore should have never had a neocon like Lieberman as a running mate, but he did.

Israel is an imperialist and law-breaking nation living outside any bounds of decency or international law, much as apartheid South Africa was not many years ago. Her leaders should be prosecuted for crimes against humanity at The Hague. Israel should withdraw immediately to her pre-1967 borders, and then build a wall to separate it from the state of Palestine.

[GabysPoppy]

43. Excuse me

Does the name Ralph Nader ring a bell?

[IndianaGreen]

44. Does WMD ring a bell?

Does WMD ring a bell, and all of Israel's allies in the US that participated in the PR campaign to sell the war in Iraq to an unsuspecting American public?

[GabysPoppy]

45. And that has what to do with the 2000 election?

Ralph Nader and the Green party is why that asshole sits in the WH today. There would be NO WMDs or war in Iraq to even discuss.

As a matter of fact if it wasn't for Ralph Nader there would not be a DU today either. There wouldn't be an Asscroft or that bullshit Patriot bill.

As a matter of fact if it wasn't for Ralph Nader there would be over 500 men and women still alive today.

As a matter of fact it it wasn't for Ralph Nader there would be thousands of men and women without debilitating injuries from that damn war.

Ralph Nader can join *Bush and rot in hell for eternity.

[IndianaGreen]

46. I don't care about Nader, who is a capitalist like Bush and Kerry

I do care about changing US policy towards Israel, and making Israel accountable for her actions by forever smashing to pieces this "special relationship" which is nothing more than an excuse for Israel's crimes against Palestinians and American complicity in them.

[GabysPoppy]

47. I beg to differ with you

as do a majority of US citizens.

And Ralph Nader and his green party should still rot in hell for giving us the asshole in Washington. Every time Ridge opens his box of crayolas, I am reminded of Nader. Every time Powell opens his lying mouth I am reminded of Nader. Every time Asswipe covers over a statue I am reminded of Nader. Every time Cheney and his Halliburton cronies feeds a US Serviceman dog food I am reminded of Nader. Every time a gay person is persecuted in this country I am reminded of Nader and his green party.With every US citizen incarcerated in Gitmo without the benefit of a lawyer I am reminded of what Nader accomplished.

Ralph Nader and his green party have US blood on their hands. That is the abomination that should be detested and loathed. Theirs is the biggest crime against humanity.

[IndianaGreen]

48. Since I am not a Nader fan, nor a member of the Green Party...

there is no need for me to respond to your rant.

Here is another point of view, from the followers of Leon Trotsky. Please take note about what it says about Greens:

For a break with the Democratic Party

The central historical problem of the American working class has been its inability to break from the bourgeois parties and establish its own mass independent party. The established two-party system offers only the illusion of choice. Both the Democrats and the Republicans, whatever their differences, accept and defend the social framework of American capitalism: the domination of all aspects of life by private wealth and production for profit.

While working people possess the right to vote and can exercise that right, despite mounting social and legal obstacles, they have nothing to vote for, and no effective means to influence the policies of the government. Those are determined entirely by competing interests of rival factions within the economic elite. The working class is, in practice, politically disenfranchised.

<snip>

The Greens play a reactionary political role, opposing the development of a socialist movement based on the working class in favor of the formation of a third capitalist party. As the record of the Green Party in Germany has demonstrated, once the Greens begin to achieve influence in bourgeois politics they quickly discard their initial radicalism. The former pacifists in the German Greens paved the way for the first overseas deployment of German troops since World War II. In California, Green candidate Peter Camejo backed the right-wing-inspired recall campaign and ended up tacitly supporting a vote for the main Democratic candidate, Cruz Bustamante.

In the 2004 campaign, these left-talking politicians will once again seek to put off the critical question of establishing the political independence of the working class from both big business parties. They will seek to divert the mass opposition to Bush behind whichever candidate emerges from the Democratic nomination contest. They all subscribe to the position of “anyone but Bush,” as though Bush were the only weapon of American capitalism, rather than one of many instruments of the ruling elite.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jan2004/stat-j27.shtml

[GabysPoppy]

49. It wasn't me who posted this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=50602#51185


And the followers of Trotsky can also rot in hell if they are in support of Ralph Nader and his green party and contributed to the selection of Bush*.

[IndianaGreen]

50. Hell is a Christian belief, not Jewish. There is no Devil in Judaism.

I was challenging the 2000 Democratic platform, specifically the morally blind platform about Israel. I indicated that it was time to change the platform to add a Palestinian rights plank together with a call for Israel's withdrawal to the pre-1967 borders.

I also posted this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=50602#51184

[GabysPoppy]

51. And I disagree with you

And they STILL should rot in any HELL that has room for them.

[IndianaGreen]

52. So?

I am sorry we disagree on this issue, when there are probably many other issues that we are probably in agreement.

:shrug:

[GabysPoppy]

53. For the record

I doubt that.

:shrug:

[IndianaGreen]

54. If you have Lori Berenson's picture in your posts

chances are we are in agreement regarding the political situation in Peru.

[GabysPoppy]

55. Lori Berenson's situation is more personal

than the political situation in Peru.

[Jackie97]

28. In the US....

It's political suicide to not support Israeli policy. No politician can get away with doing otherwise because the people who vote for them are kept ignorant by a biased media.

[GabysPoppy]

29. Or on the other hand

The people who vote for them are NOT ignorant and entirely capable of making up their own minds, with or without the media.

It is also possible that these are the opinions and desires of their constituents and to vote against their wishes is a sure way to become unemployed.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

33. What should a politician do

if he believed the opinions and desires of his/her constituents were wrong? Should he go along in fear of losing his/her job,or stand up for what he/she believes is right?

This is purely a hypothetical as I have no info that this is the case.This question is something I think about a lot,not just in relation to I/P.

[GabysPoppy]

34. Good question

Case one - Politician A campaigns on a platform of lets say three main issues and declares if you vote for me, this is what I intend to do. If the constituents of that district vote to elect him, the politician should stand for his principles.

Case two - Politician B campaigns on a platform that they proclaim "I am here to represent you and your wishes", I think he is obligated to do just that.

That is a very simplistic and black & white answer and of course you can come up with ridiculous examples to shred it apart but it in some ways does differentiate politician A & B.

As a practical matter, I prefer Politician A because it is much easier to predict where they would stand as other issues arise. There will always be exceptions. The most absurd one might be the case of Strom Thurmond. I'm sure the wing-nuts etc. expected a racist segregationist when they kept electing him to office and probably had a brain hemorrhage when he voted in favor of MLK's birthday as a national holiday.

[Forkboy]

35. thanks for answering

you make interesting points for me to think about.It's definately one of the better answers I've been given.I appreciate it,especially the idea of the wing-nuts having a brain hemorrhage :)

[BrokenSegue]

31. I Disagree but fight for your right to believe that

Whether or not the security fence is a good idea I feel giving to much respect(support)to one side will only make attaining peace more difficult.

Even the greats support me
O, beware, my lord, of jealousy!
It is the green-eyed monster which doth mock
The meat it feeds on.
William Shakespeare (1564 - 1616), "Othello", Act 3 scene 3

One, a robot may not injure a human being, or through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm;
Two, a robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law; Three, a robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.
Isaac Asimov (1920 - 1992), Laws of Robotics from I. Robot, 1950
(3 rules- 3 nations get it?) or not (It's a joke laugh)

[gate of the sun]

36. I saw a man speak from Israel yesterday

and he said the fence though OK in conception was now totally out of line he said in one instance the fence will completly surround one city in Palestine except for one tiny road to go in and out. This fence is in area's it doesn't belong and will further harm the Palestinians.