Palestinian militant turned peacemaker...

[cantwealljustgetalong]

Walid Shoebat vividly remembers the tumultuous days of June, 1967, when Israel and its Arab neighbours were at war.
For six days and six nights, Walid and his family hid in the bathroom of their home in Jericho, as fighting raged outside.
"On the sixth day, everything went quiet," Walid told BBC News Online. "My father was listening to Arab radio and the news said: 'We cleansed Jerusalem of the Jews'. Then we opened the door and there was this Israeli tank with the Star of David flag standing in our street!" (looks like Baghdad Bob got his start covering the 6 day war)

...

A humiliating defeat for the Arabs, the Israeli victory spawned a new generation of young nationalists determined to restore lost pride, vanquish the enemy and establish a Palestinian state.
"From kindergarten we were taught that Jews were dogs," said Walid. "We were taught that Jews were the converts of monkeys, that Jews were Sabbath breakers and prophet killers. We even considered Arabs in pre-1967 Israel traitors because we could not understand how they could co-exist with Jews."

'To die as a martyr'

As a teenager in the mid-1970s, Walid joined the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) and became a local activist - printing fliers, organising demonstrations and confronting Israeli troops.
My whole dream was to die as a shaheed . At demonstrations I would open my shirt hoping to be shot - but the Israelis would never shoot at the body, so I never succeeded," he said.
One day, in the middle of a riot, Walid was part of a group which snatched an Israeli soldier who was trying to quell the violence.
They beat him senseless and tried to lynch him, before he was rescued by troops and the group fled.
"We ran to a monastery where the nuns protected us - even they hated the Jews!"

...

He eventually moved to California, where he met his current wife, a Catholic from Mexico.
"I wanted her to convert to Islam," he said. "I told her Jews had corrupted the Bible and she asked me to show her some examples of this corruption. At this point I had to go and buy a Bible and I started reading it and I saw the word 'Israel' all over it. I had to be brutally honest - the very word I hated the most was throughout this book!
"I thought: 'How do you explain this?' Then I started thinking, really the Jews didn't do us any harm but we hated them and accused them of all this horrible stuff. I began to think more openly."

...

Speaking out

...

"I chose to speak out because I was a victim, as a child I was a victim of this horror. Now I see other victims, millions of them, kids.
"I was taught songs about killing Jews. You need to get rid of the education system where they are teaching this type of thing and get rid of the terrorist groups. It will take a generation, but until then, there's not going to be peace, it doesn't matter what kind of land settlement you have."
A militant-turned-peacemaker, Walid wants to meet the Israel soldier he tried to kill almost 30 years ago.
His voice cracking with emotion, Walid said he would offer the soldier his hand and say to him: "'Please understand, we were just children, brainwashed to kill you, to hate you.' I would seek his forgiveness."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3430077.stm

[JasonDeter]

1. This man is my brother.

This is the kind of people who Israel can talk to. The arafats, hamas and the hezbollah devils are the enemies of peace and until the Palestinian people change their leadership to men like Walid Shoebat there will be no peace in Israel with the Palestinians.

[Aidoneus]

2. "devils"?

there would be hell to pay if somebody around here said that about Jews.

You define "peace" as craven submission. I do not agree with this definition.

[JasonDeter]

3. So you think Hamas and Hezbolla terrorists are what...saints?

[cantwealljustgetalong]

4. sorry, but...

you set up an invalid analogy between Jews and Arafat/Hamas/Hizb, the appropriate analogy would be between Jews and the Palestinian people...since the comment was directed at Arafat, Hamas, and Hizb, and not the Palestinian people, you have missed the mark...

[JasonDeter]

7. No, Israel is not at war with the Palestinian people

as much as those who oppose Israel would like to frame it as such. Israel is at war with the likes of arafat, hamas and the hezbolla terrorists and the footsoldiers in those groups. The sad fact is those cowards who lead those groups hide behind women and children. In fact arafat, hamas and hezbolla and the like even terrorize the Palestinian people!! I still remember the tires jammed down on those who would dare to associate themselves with Israel and the terrorists would lite them on fire.
No the enemy of the Palestinian people is not Israel, it is arafat, hamas and hezbolla.

[Lithos]

5. It's not one side's fault

Sharon and Netanyahu and much of the extreme right are unlikely candidates on the Israeli side for acheiving a respectful and long lasting peace. Focusing the problem only one side will never solve the problem. Any real chance for peace will require the simultaneous movement of both peoples to discard the dogs of war and nationalism.



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[tinnypriv]

6. I think the poster is focusing on two sides

Since Hezbollah has almost nothing to do with Palestinian nationalism.

Moreover, in my opinion the correct response is not to chastise anybody for focusing only on "one side", since that implies there are two.

In fact, the moral position (if American), is to work to terminate American extremism, which is far more dangerous. The U.S. sets the boundaries for behaviour. You can hardly blame Sharon and the rest for working within them.

[JasonDeter]

8. "to work to terminate American extremism"???

Please tell me you're not saying America created arafat, hamas and hezbolla!! You can say your not but to say, "The U.S. sets the boundaries for behaviour" is falling into the trap of excusing the real reason there can never be peace between the Israeli's and the Palestinian people! Namely, arafat, hamas and hezbolla. In fact I believe the Palestinian people have been SO terrorized by the likes of arafat, hamas and hezbolla that it will take someone like Walid Shoebat(which is what the origional thread was about) to restore sanity to the Palestinian cause.

[tinnypriv]

12. Since

Walid Shoebat would likely poll a resounding 1% in a Palestinian election, I'm not sure I understand how you are judging "sanity".

You surely don't mean that you know how the Palestinians should achieve the aims of their cause, but that they don't.

To address the rest of what you said, I'm not sure where I wasn't clear. I specifically said American extremism. If I was talking about Arafat and Hamas, I'd say Palestinian extremism, and if I was talking about Hezbollah, Lebanese extremism (though in the case of Arafat and Hezbollah the term is perhaps too strong, and in the case of Hamas not strong enough).

Moreover, the statement "The U.S. sets the boundaries for behaviour" is recognised as accurate by the more astute Israeli commentators. To name two representative examples, you may wish to look up Amir Oren's article of Nov 2002 (Ha'aretz), or Yonatan Rosenblum's article of Jan 2004 (Ma'ariv).

You can disagree with this (and their) assessment of the U.S. role, but since you offered no argument other than "the real reason", I see no need to take that disagreement seriously.

Finally, as should be obvious, the fact my post did not contain a ritual condemnation of Arafat, Hamas, Hezbollah or _____ (fill in the non-Israeli blank) does not mean that I "excuse" their (often despicable) crimes nor ignore their involvement in extremism.

In fact, I have made my opinions on all of them explicity clear more than once, and feel no need to repeat them here.

[JasonDeter]

13. Absolutely amazing. The more pertinent point is

Walid Shoebat would be murdered if he was to go back to his hometown, in his own words: "If I went back to my village of Beit Sahour I would live five minutes, I can guarantee it."

A man of peace will be murdered NOT by the palestinian people but by arafat or hamas or hezbollah. Thats not America's fault, in fact he learned the way of Peace in America. But that being said, I hope he has the courage to go back to Beit Sahour and is a witness.

[Lithos]

9. Yin and Yang

Moreover, in my opinion the correct response is not to chastise anybody for focusing only on "one side", since that implies there are two.

I disagree. There are really two principal players who are aided and abetted by a rather large group of dysfunctional bystanders whose involvement is, granted, substantial but still indirect. However the indirect players are not easily defined by simple definitions of extremism, but rather by their interests. To say it's based on extremism makes it sound more of a religious basis which is rather far from the truth.

In my opinion it's actually economics and corporate Empire which is the biggest driver of indirect interest how the major third parties such as the US, EU and Arab Countries deal with the I/P situation. More simply, oil, defense, trade and money. Even PNAC's agenda is nothing more than a loose gloss of pseudo moralisic mumbo-jumbo trying to justify US military power to expand corporate hegemony.


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[tinnypriv]

10. Not really convinced you addressed my point

Since you changed definitions and addressed something else. To expand:

<< There are really two principal players who are aided and abetted by a rather large group of dysfunctional bystanders whose involvement is, granted, substantial but still indirect. >>

This is lacking on detail, but if I understand your argument, there are the following actors:

1. The Palestinians
2. Israel
3. A "large group of dysfunctional bystanders" (largely unnamed)

Despite the fact that you define the interactions between these as the third group "aiding and abetting" the actions of the first and the second, (with "substantial" involvement), you somehow draw the conclusion that such interactions are "indirect".

I'm afraid that answers nothing, and is evasion, since it is transparently easy to point out numerous examples of "direct" involvement, in the past and right at this very moment by at least one faction of the "bystanders"; namely, the United States.

I presume it won't be necessary to do so since I'm fairly sure that you're aware of many of them.

<< However the indirect players are not easily defined by simple definitions of extremism, but rather by their interests. To say it's based on extremism makes it sound more of a religious basis which is rather far from the truth. >>

Putting aside "indirect", which I obviously disagree with, my use of "extremism" is largely in the political sense (though that does not exclude religious motivations for those polticial stands, as is obvious). If I gave a different impression, that is perhaps my error, your interpretation of my comments or a combination of both.

<< In my opinion it's actually economics and corporate Empire which is the biggest driver of indirect interest how the major third parties such as the US, EU and Arab Countries deal with the I/P situation. >>

There doesn't appear to be continuity between your definitions, which perhaps (as above), will make it difficult to address your point, which in any case is irrelevant to mine.

To explain, on the one hand you say that apart from Israel and the Palestinians, there is only a group of "bystanders" to the conflict. On the other hand, above, you say that some of these "bystanders" are "major third parties", who "deal" with the I/P situation.

Again, to repeat, I simply do not see how these terms can be applied to "indirect" involvement. Certainly a "party" to a conflict is directly involved in it, almost by definition.

Regarding irrelevance, my point is that the moral position regarding the I/P conflict is that a person should terminate their own support for extremism, to the extent that they are responsible for it, before focusing on somebody else.

To name a specific case off hand, it would be the height of hypocrisy for me to condemn Arutz Sheva for being a bunch of extremists, without noting that they're encouraged to do so by folks like the British Ambassador to Israel (who in a recent interview with them maintained a shameful silence on Israel's atrocities, even on matters which contradict official UK gov policy).

Or, to take another case, blaming Sharon for the route of the fence, whilst ignoring the UK representatives vote at the UN Security Council (which tacitly endorsed it).

Etc.

The underlying point in both obviously generalises.

<< More simply, oil, defense, trade and money. Even PNAC's agenda is nothing more than a loose gloss of pseudo moralisic mumbo-jumbo trying to justify US military power to expand corporate hegemony. >>

You'll get no argument on that.

[JasonDeter]

11. "a rather large group of dysfunctional bystanders " who teach 9 principles

This is what Walid Shoebat said he was taught as a child and children are being taught in Palestine by arafat, hamas and hezbolla now:

1. Arab radio and the news said: 'We cleansed Jerusalem of the Jews'.

2. "From kindergarten we were taught that Jews were dogs," said Walid.

3. "We were taught that Jews were the converts of monkeys,

4. that Jews were Sabbath breakers and prophet killers.

5. We even considered Arabs in pre-1967 Israel traitors

6. because we could not understand how they could co-exist with Jews."

7. "My whole dream was to die as a shaheed ."

8. "We ran to a monastery where the nuns protected us - """even they hated the Jews!"""

9. He returned to violence

That is the problem that must be dealt with before any meaningful peace can be discovered between Israel and the Palestinian people. It will not be possible until the Palestinian people throw off the yoke of terror wraught on them by arafat, hamas, hezbolla and the like.

[drdon326]

14. Jews were dogs and monkeys ??

gee....big deal....you can hear that on any PA media
outlet....


ruff...ruff......grrrrrrrrrrr.