Saudi peace initiative: Arab states to absorb refugees

[Gimel]

According to a new peace initiative being prepared by Arab states, Israel will negotiate a peace agreement with all the Arab states, and not just with the Palestinians, and Arab states would absorb Palestinian refugees.

The Kuwaiti newspaper Al Siyasa reported Saturday that the initiative, led by Saudi Arabia, would include "declarations of peace agreements between all Arab states," which will bring an end to the conflict between Israel and the Arabs. The states would declare a normalization in their ties with Israel, including the appointment of ambassadors.

The Arab states will demand that Israel withdraw to its borders prior to the June 1967 war, in other words, to leave the Palestinian territories and withdraw from the Golan Heights.

The initiative also includes a "creative solution" for the problem of Palestinian refugees, which is one of the most serious issues in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

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That anti-terrorism Peace Fence was definitely a good idea.

[Jack Rabbit]

1. I'd like to see some more details

Presumably, with the occupation of Palestinian territories ending, a Palestinian state will be declared. Are there any specifics in this agreement for security arrangements between Israel and Palestine?

Is there any official reaction from the GOI? As I recall, Sharon was not too keen on the original Saudi proposal a couple of years back.

[tinnypriv]

2. "Original"

That was a repeat of the 1982 proposal, which was in essence a repeat of the 1976 initiative, FWIW.

[Muddleoftheroad]

4. The Saudi proposal

The last one emphasized Right of Return. Clearly, this one is not doing so.

[vierundzwanzig]

8. No ROR, no peace

I'll give you that in writing.

Whether you or I like it or not does not matter.

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. No ROR and No Peace

Nothing Israel does will get it peace. And ROR will destroy the state of Israel.

[sushi]

11. 100% ROR

would, obviously, be a disaster for Israel. What they could agree on is only those 80 or 70 years and older have a right to return. Something like that. They must negotiate and compromise.

[Muddleoftheroad]

12. Why?

Why must Israel compromise on this issue? The Palestinians, thanks to the insanity of the UN, think anybody even vaguely related to original "refugees" now qualifies as such.

But that's not the case. And even if it were, it would be academic. Israel can't turn its nation over to its enemies. The rest of the Arab world ethnically cleansed itself of the Jewish people. The Jewish people in Israel can't risk that happening to them in their homeland.

[sushi]

13. In a negotiation

both sides must give and take. If the Palestinians feel so strongly about ROR, it won't hurt Israel to let the elderly people go home. How many 70, 80, or 90 year old Palestinians are there? In exchange for this the Palestinians give up, or in to, something Israel feels strongly about.

Who knows. They could agree that only the 100-year olds can go back! What they must do is get together and talk.

[DuctapeFatwa]

14. Israel chose to discard all its negotiating chips.

Even if Right of Return were negotiable, which it isn't, and never was, regardless of how much Arafat loves swimmin pools and movie stars, Israel is in no position to negotiate anything any more.

Once you reach a critical level of certainty that I will kill you whether you do what I want or not, I no longer have anything with which to negotiate.

Israel still has something to lose.

The Palestinians don't.

[Muddleoftheroad]

16. Palestinians have a LOT to lose

All of their lives.

Sooner or later, they will push Israel too far. There will be too many terror attacks, too much cooperation from the PA in such terror.

Then there will be war. Not war like people here talk about, but the real damn thing.

In real war, thousands don't die over a couple years. Thousands die in a couple days. It will be real and it will be devastating. It will wipe out what remains of Palestinian infrastructure and will destroy any hope of peace for several more decades.

Yes, they have a lot to lose. Their hope for a state and many thousands of lives.

Or they can surprise me and choose peace.

[DuctapeFatwa]

17. Israel made its decision

Palestinians lose their lives now. There is little enthusiasm on the Palestinian street for flying a Palestinian flag over a giant prison camp, or collection thereof, and calling it a state while militant Israeli gunmen pick them off like rich people at a safari 'hunt."

Do you think Israelis would welcome such a proposition for themselves?

If such were proposed for Israel, do you imagine that throngs of Israeli citizens would kneel in meek and awed gratitude before the benefactors that made them such a gift?

Israel had an opportunity to choose peace, and instead chose short-term financial gain for a few, not unlike the US is doing.

That the decision was not in the best interest of ordinary Israelis is about as important to the guys with the fat pockets as your health insurance premium is to Halliburton.

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. Both sides lose their lives now

Yes, it is obvious that there is little enthusiasm for the Palestinian flag. Or for peace with Israel either.

There is a reality. Wars have been fought and the Palestinians and their numerous allies lost.

There are repurcussions for such reality.

You paint this as a war over money. I won't make the obvious comment about that. But you totally mischaracterize the situation. It is a war for Israel's survival.

It will survive.

[rockymountaindem]

19. Muddle, you are awesome.

[DuctapeFatwa]

27. Your misconception is as common as it is dismissive of reality

Colonialism has not "won," on the contrary, its golden moment on the soundstage of history is fading, and Palestine is only one actor on the stage, and the only reason it has lines in this scene at all is precisely because of money.

Money is the reason for imperial colonialism. It was thus in Africa, in Asia, the Americas, and in the Middle East as well.

It is nothing in the world but the fat kid on the playground grabbing the goodies from the little kids because his own are not so tasty, writ large.

But recess ends, time passes, and the plump little bully eventually finds himself at a disadvantage, outnumbered, and unable to run very fast.

He then has a choice: make peace, and return the goodies, or continue to snatch pathetically at the pockets of his victims who surround him as he sinks into the oblivion of diminishing returns.

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. Yes, colonialism has not won

On that we agree.

But Israel is not colonialism. It is a democracy consisting of millions either born in that area or returned to it.

Money has little to do with the founding of Israel. In fact, it would probably be easier on the Western oil-using powers to abandon Israel as Europe has done. But America continues to stand by its friend.

As for your offensive analogy, it is inaccurate. Jews are done running. They are home. The sooner that the Arabs accept this, the sooner we will find peace.

Israel has repeatedly offered peace. It has made peace with both Jordan and Egypt and developed peaceful ties with other Muslim nations like Turkey.

But peace does not mean surrender and Israel will not choose that path. So either the Palestinians truly offer peace or they will truly get nothing in return.

[DuctapeFatwa]

29. LOL It is colonialism at its most classic

The European immigrants deployed by the US and the UK to establish a weapons base in the Levant are no different from the Sahibs sent to South Asia during the Raj, or a thousand other places where imperialists have done the same thing.

The US-installed puppet regimes in Jordan and Egypt are the same "native overseers" that have been employed by imperialists for centuries from Indonesia to Mississippi.

Do you imagine that Hosni and Abdullah and the Saudi princes would do well in free and open elections without benefit of US money?

They, like the Israeli government does what it is paid to do, as Leopold's men did what they were paid to do in the Congo.

Today, the US seeks to do the same thing in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, and is tuning up to start on Iran and Syria.

Those who do not comprehend the concept of diminishing returns are about to be enlightened.

[bemildred]

30. The list of backers is interesting, from that perspective.

That was the first thing I noticed about it.

FWIW I think Iran and Syria are reasonably safe from US
intervention at this point, and I don't actually see any
likely scenarios wherein that would change. They may have to
worry about other things, but not direct US invasion, and
probably not even any serious level of non-military intervention.
IMHO, the same applies to Israeli interventions. They are
quite nervous about the situation, as they should be, but the
reasons are much the same as with the sponsors of this "plan",
the whole place is a tinderbox and the former local fireman is
getting his ass burned off in Iraq.

The threats against Syria and Iran are empty, intended to keep
them from meddling in Iraq, not the other way around.

Colonial enterprises have failed to pay for themselves for well
over 100 years, but they seem to be just too attractive to certain
personalities to give up on. It is certainly going to be fun to
watch things play out over the next year or two, I do think things
are coming to a head, current trends cannot continue much longer.

[Muddleoftheroad]

32. Fun?

Yes, you said, "It is certainly going to be fun to
watch things play out over the next year or two." That's incredible.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. That's me

Mr. Incredible.

I'm gonna get myself a cape. ;)

[bemildred]

35. Just make sure the tights are loose enough.

I hate it when I get chafed down there.

FWIW, I'm reasonably optimistic about progress in
the area. These are risky times, but I think that the
decline in US hegemony in the area offers good prospects
for progress on a number of thorny problems, including I/P,
that have previously been intractable; and some of the
demographic trends in the Muslim states are in directions
that ought to lead to political improvement, i.e. higher
literacy and lower birthrates.

[DuctapeFatwa]

36. Second phase of gas pipeline to be launched next week

Jordanian, Egyptian and Syrian prime ministers are due to meet in Jordan next week to launch the second phase of an inter-regional gas pipeline linking the three countries and Lebanon before reaching Europe.

Energy and Mineral Resources Minister Azmi Khreisat told The Jordan Times that the Lebanese prime minister is also expected to attend the agreement-signing ceremony.

The second phase extends over 370 kilometres from the southern port city of Aqaba to the Rehab Power Plant in the northern part of the Kingdom, he said.

Khreisat estimated the cost at around $270 million indicating that the work will be carried out by an Egyptian consortium, grouping Egypt Holding Gas Company, GASCO, Petrojet and Emppi. The consortium won a tender last year to extend the second phase of the gas pipeline.

http://www.syrialive.net/financial/2004/012404Second%20phase%20of%20gas%20pipeline%20to%20be%20launched%20next%20week.htm

[bemildred]

37. Yes, I saw that post, but made no comment at the time.

It is a fascinating development.

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. Sahibs?

You are almost alone, thankfully, among the pro-Palestinian posters who seem to think Jews have no rights to be in this area.

I think that attitude is repulsive and ignores history.

The regimes of Jordan and Egypt are like every other Arab government, a bunch of powermad autocrats. In those two cases, they just happen to be pro-U.S. autocrats.

Israel does NOT do what it is "paid to do." Israel is a free and democratic nation. It fights daily for survival. It is not a paid puppet regime. Nor does it pull the strings for America as some periodically claim here. It does what it must to survive because the other options are far worse.

Yes, the U.S. is a superpower and it uses its leverage across the globe. So does every nation with any power whatsoever. So what else is new?

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. Give and take

Israel will be giving the Palestinians a state, land and a whole bunch of other things.

No, they will not get Right of Return. To give them some will only embolden them to demand more. It must not be on the table whatsoever.

[sushi]

20. I remember the last Saudi proposal

suggested a financial settlement if there can't be a right of return.

[Muddleoftheroad]

21. That sounds good

The Arab nations should pay it to make up for their ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands of Jews.

[sushi]

23. I think they meant that Israel pays

the refugees to stay away, but if the Arab world absorbs the refugees, Israel no longer has to worry about Arabs swamping Israel, and the Arab world then expects Israel to withdraw to the pre67 borders.

There is so much to be done before they can shake hands and celebrate peace.

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. The borders

Israel might withdraw to most of them, but Jerusalem will stay in Israel. It is, after all, the Israeli capital.

[The Magistrate]

25. More Details Would Indeed Be Helpful, Mr. Rabbit

It does seem, on its face, an appropriate and workable plan, that could lead to a real settlement of the matter.

[vierundzwanzig]

3. You have got to be kidding

exactly who would sign on to this? Jordan was solely established for the matter of 'absorbing' Palestinian refugees and now the Saudis are being paid off to sell some more sand?

Somehow they missed the clue that the 'refugees' want to back from where they came from and not North Dakota.

[rockymountaindem]

10. Most of the refugees

Who fled Israel in the '48 war have died by now. Their children are only "refugees" by a special UN decree. There is no other group of refugees in the world who's children are acknowledged to be refugees too. If that were the case, I would have a claim against the Russian government for throwing my family out of Poland in 1903. The children of those Arabs who fled Israel in '48 don't have much claim to that land.

[Jackie97]

40. And if......

You or the children of those Jews who were ran out of Arab countries were crying out for a right to return, then I would support it all the way. Of course, everybody is happy in Israel, so there's no need to take up for that.

The Palestinian refugees are not happy because of their constant suffering. That presents a problem of today to handle.

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. Happy

Everybody is not "happy" in Israel. They would like dearly to have not only the freedom to move about without blowing up, but they would love to be reimbursed for what they lost.

They know they can't go home again. It's about time the Palestinians accepted that fact as well.

[Jackie97]

42. Why should anybody accept segregation?

If the Palestinians or the Israelis want to fight for the right to "go home", and not live in a world where everybody isn't in segregated countries, they why shouldn't they fight for it?

And Israelis wouldn't be getting blown up so much if at all, if the Israeli government would stop ethnically cleansing the Palestinians. What the Palestinians are doing is wrong (because they're going after civilians), but they're fighting in one of the few ways that they really can fight back.

[Muddleoftheroad]

44. Segregation exists in the Arab lands, not Israel

You want an integrated state, good 'cause it's Israel. Israel has one million Arabs. The Arab states and even the PA controlled West Bank are virtually free of Jews because of ethnic cleansing.

The Jews accept that it is not safe for them to "go home." They are home now and won't allow that nation to follow the others in the Mideast down the path of being free of Jews.

[Jackie97]

45. The heck it doesn't exist in Israel.

There are schools just for different types of Jews and schools just for Arabs. There are neighborhoods, just for Jews that Arabs have to fight to be allowed to live in. All those settlements out in the West Bank are for Jews; Arabs aren't allowed to live there. Arabs have a hard time getting land to lease because people are holding out to lease them to Jews. Israel is very much a "Separate, but equal" state. Of course, a state can never be separate, but equal.

Not all the countries are Jew free. It's a known fact that Iraq does have some Jews left. I'm not asking the ME Jews of Israel to accept ethnic cleansing of them in the ME. If they want to fight for the right to return, to be given money for their suffering, or certain other things, I'll back them up. I just won't back up the idea of "Because we were ethnically cleased out of other states and because we feel like we can't go back; we have every right in the world to do it to Arabs". In other words, I won't back up the BS idea of "Two wrongs make a right".

Not that it was ever okay to ethnically cleanse the Jews out of the ME countries, but I would like to point out the fact that this did not happen until the Israeli state was created (which led to Arabs being ethnically cleansed out of the area).

[Gimel]

46. Equality

There are schools just for different types of Jews and schools just for Arabs.

Private religious schools are licensed by the GOI. Aren't there private Catholic schools in the USA, the bastion of personal freedom?

Aren't there private educational systems which are in fact tax exempt and often receive public funds?

there are communities for only retirees in the USA. NO children allowed. Buildings for singles only and no Jews allowed, in many states Jews can't even buy property or homes. Is that the equality you are so proud of?

While the Palestinians are claiming to be refugees, they have long denied that Jews are required to receive compensation for property they were forced to abandon in Arab countries.

[Jackie97]

47. Since this isn't a forum about the US...

I don't get much into talking about the US.

No, the problems in the US should not be any more accepted.

Can you give me proof that Jews can't buy property or homes in many states though?

"While the Palestinians are claiming to be refugees, they have long denied that Jews are required to receive compensation for property they were forced to abandon in Arab countries."

It's not really the Palestinians' place to do that. It's the place of the countries that the Jews were driven out of. Just like it's Israel's place to compensate the Palestinian refugees.

[Gimel]

22. They claim of refugee

This claim is largely disproven. Anyway, with the wall protecting Israel, the terrorist Palestinians will go back to where they came from, which is Jordan. Jordan is afraid of this, and so will accept an agreement whereby the Palestinians have their own state, and agree to Israel's "red line" of no substantial right of return.

[The Magistrate]

24. Jordan, Mr. Zwanzig?

Jordan was established in 1922, for reasons that clearly had nothing to do with absorbtion of persons who would fly their homes in 1948....

There will never be any number of descendants of persons who fled their homes in 1948 emmigrating into Israel and becoming Israeli citizens as a feature of any peace settlement.

Persons who insist on this occuring as part of a peace settlement are arguing in fact not for peace but for continued war, until the side they support is victorious with the destruction of Israel.

[madrchsod]

5. i wonder what it is really like

to be a palestinian who has to put up with sharon and his gang ,now they may have to put up with the saudi gangs. we bitch and moan about what`s going on here but these people are getting screwed by everyone,even thier own leaders..we have it pretty dam good here,at least we can vote on a change of government

[GabysPoppy]

6. Unless you have to vote in Florida

[vierundzwanzig]

7. I was waiting

to hear something funny from you!

[Gimel]

38. Details take time

This is the first announcement of a proposal. They might get all the Arab nations together to agree to something like this and suddenly slap on Jerusalem as the Palestinian Capital on the end, just to make sure that it fails. It depends on how well the benefits and pressure mounts.

[Jackie97]

39. Let's see if Israel actually goes for it.

That requires them to withdrawal from the 1967 boarders, which Sharon doesn't want to do. He wants to put more settlements in instead.

I think it's great that some of the Arab states will absorb some of the refugees, and all Israel to live in peace, and Palestine would be declared a state. I also think it's great that refugees would be compensated for their suffering.

However, that's not enough.

They were driven from their homes, and they have the right to go back there.

And no, the genocidal fence is still not a good idea. Am I the only person who think that preventing genocide against the Palestinans is just as important as preventing genocide against the Jews?

[JasonDeter]

43. DOA. But lets negotiate. wink wink. eom