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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:41 PM
Original message
Holocaust Denial: A Global Survey 2003
Executive Summary: Holocaust Denial - A Global Survey: 2003

Holocaust denial activity decreased in the United States during 2003, but continued full force in government-sponsored media in Arab countries and the Palestinian Authority.

The decrease in the United States was due to the ongoing legal conflicts between the two major U.S. promoters of Holocaust denial, the Institute for Historical Review and Liberty Lobby founder Willis Carto. At the same time, British Holocaust-denier David Irving maintained an active presence on the U.S. lecture circuit throughout the year, speaking in at least twenty-five cities.

Other notable developments in 2003:
  • For the first time ever, a Holocaust denier was invited to the White House. Palestinian Authority prime minister Mahmoud Abbas, author of a book denying the Holocaust, visited the White House in July 2003.
  • A prominent former United States Senator, Mike Gravel (D-Alaska), appeared as a speaker at the June 2003 conference of a Holocaust-deniers' publication, The Barnes Review.
  • The leader of a major Muslim country, Malaysian prime minister Mahathir Mohammed, publicly affirmed that the Holocaust occurred. However, he did so in a speech alleging Jewish control of the world, and it was that theme, not his acknowledgment of the Holocaust, which attracted attention.


<detailed breakdown by country at: http://www.wymaninstitute.org/denialreport/2003.php >
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. For those of you
interested in tracking the more dangerously looney-tunes types out there...
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. I find even reading about one
Holocaust denier is difficult and bad enough. The fact that there are actually groups promoting denial and that they actually have members is beyond depressing and discouraging. And it's always amazed me that no other well-documented historical event has ever been denied in such a fashion, one may as well deny that the Civil War never happened!

I'll never forget meeting three survivors in college during a course on Holocaust history.

My boyfriend at the time was Jewish, and he literally sat shaking for over an hour afterwards, saying how that could very well have been his grandparents and he couldn't imagine it.
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. BTW: Posted to I/P
because of the large number of Holocaust Denial incidents coming from the PA so it's likely it would get moved here eventually.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. So sad
As more time elapses, we will only see more of these nuts. Soon there won't even be any survivors around to relate their first-hand accounts, and we'll lose valuable eyewitness information.
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Luckily
Steven Spielberg's Survivors of the Shoah Visual History Foundation is documenting as many first hand accounts as possible.

For more information go to their website at: http://www.vhf.org/
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Sad but true
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 02:54 PM by _Jumper_
I actually had the privilege of meeting two Holocaust survivors who told their tragic story and I will never forget it.

Yet I know several family members who are Muslim fundies that recycle old nonsense about Jews controlling the media or the economy. :grr:

:scared:
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. Pathetic
I am of Pakistani descent and I am ashamed of the astonishingly high level of anti-Semitism among Pakistanti immigrants. Some people in subsequent generations are anti-Semitic (basically only the Muslim fundies) but the level of anti-Semitism among assimilated generations is very low.

Until we deal with the Arab-centrism problem in the Muslim world we will never be able to deal with the hate problem that exists in non-Arab Muslim nations who irrationally obsess over a conflict that has absolutely no affect on them.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Irrational obession?
Really?...
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Yes
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 02:57 PM by _Jumper_
How does it personally affect them? Many of these people make less than a $1 a day but all they want for Eid is a Palestinian state or extremination of Israel.

Where were these champions of human rights when 800K black people were being killed by machetes in three months? Are 2,800 Palestinians worth more than 800,000 black people?
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. While I understand what you're saying, I think
the reason they obsess over it is because it's such a blatant double standard of treatment, and the world generally doesn't seem to give a damn. I think, to them, that says that the Palestinians don't matter, that they're not as important.

When Christians in a particular area of the world are being blatantly persecuted, mistreated and discriminated against, do not Christians in other parts of the world recognize that and try to get others to care?

When Jews in a particular area of the world are being blatantly persecuted, mistreated, and discriminated against, do not Jews in other areas of the world recognize that and try to get others to care? Should non-Arab Muslims not give a damn about the Palestinians simply because it doesn't affect them first-hand? Granted, they shouldn't "obsess" over it, but they have every right to be angry and concerned.
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. The problem is the degree of their concern
I can understand that politically active Arabs and Muslims are concerned about the Palestinians. However, I do not understand their obsession with it. I certainly do not understand why the average Muhammad--who knows virtually nothing about politics (just like the average person of any religion)--obsesses about it. Most Muslims are living in squalor yet many of them are more concerned with the Palestinians than they are with their own welfare, or their nation's welfare.

There is more at play here than old-fashioned concern for fellow co-religionists, though. There are many conflicts in the world today involving Islam (mostly because of Islamism). There is virtually no concern for the Muslims involved in them. Why? When the genocide of Muslims was occurring in the Balkans did that replace the Palestinian issue as the top foreign concern of Muslims? Why is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict considered infinitely more important than the many other conflicts involving Islam? This disparity is irrational.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. Those are very good points,
and I don't understand it either. Their concern and anger is perfectly reasonable, the obsession over everything else certainly isn't.
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Jumper..
excellent intelligent post.
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Thanks
:toast:
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
9. A few points
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 04:40 PM by Jack Rabbit
Holocaust denial is based on nonsense. It attempts to deny either that Nazi crimes against Jews happened or that the number of Hitler's Jewish victims was far lower than six million. I would not count as Holocaust deniers those scholars who argue that a better accounting of Hitler's victims would put the number of murdered Jews at about four and a half million; these people are quibbling with quantity and not the qualitative judgment that the event was systematic mass murder and that could be characterized by the word Holocaust. For my part, I've always used the the more widely accepted figure six million Jews were murdered by the Nazis. Nor is it Holocaust denial to point out that Jews were not the only victims of Hitler's maniacal hatred. The total number of noncombatants systematically murdered by the Nazis is about 11 million, including six million Jews. It doesn't change the fact that Jews were used as the focal point of Hitler's program of mass murder or that the figure of six million represents approximately two-thirds of the Jewish population of lands that came to be occupied by the Third Reich.

The Holocaust is a historical fact. To deny this fact is belittle Jewish suffering and therefore racist. It is also as foolish as denying the Earth is round and rotates on its axis as it revolves around the Sun.

Nevertheless, the summary of the Wyman Institute's report, quoted above, are examples of Holocaust denial that can be disputed. In one case, that of Prime Minister Mahathir, the summary flatly states that Mahathir's remarks do not constitute Holocaust denial; however, as the summary points out, Mahathir's no less anti-Semitic.

Other examples cited in the summary are those of notorious British Holocaust denier David Irving, former Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas and former US Senator Mike Gravel.

That David Irving is a Holocaust denier is beyond dispute. I will not question the Institute's figures on the number of lectures he delivered in North America. However, Irving spends his time preaching to the choir. The report presents no evidence that Irving is gaining any new converts for his efforts. Has the number of Americans who deny the Holocaust significantly increased over the last several years? If this can be shown, can a correlation be drawn between that and an increase in Irving's speaking engagements? Unless those phenomena can be shown to be real, then there is no reason to do more to counter Irving than has been done for years: simply denounce him as a crackpot.

Mahmoud Abbas has been accused of Holocaust denial. It should be noted that Dr. Abbas denies this. This is from Abbas' thumbnail biography on the BBC:

A highly intellectual man, Mahmoud Abbas studied law in Egypt before doing a doctorate in Moscow. He is the author of several books.
But some Jewish groups have criticised both his doctorate and the resulting book,
The Other Side: the Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism, as works of Holocaust denial.
They claim he downplayed the number of victims and accused Jews of collaborating with the Nazis.
He denied that charge in an interview with the Israeli daily
Haaretz in May 2003.
Mahmoud Abbas, rejecting the charge of Holocaust denial
"I quoted an argument between historians in which various numbers of casualties were mentioned. One wrote there were 12 million victims and another wrote there were 800,000," he told the newspaper.
"I have no desire to argue with the figures. The Holocaust was a terrible, unforgivable crime against the Jewish nation, a crime against humanity that cannot be accepted by humankind," he said.

Personally, I haven't read any of Dr. Abbas' work on the Holocaust. It is possible that were I to do so, I might well come to the conclusion that he has denied the Holocaust. Meanwhile, I will note his defense of himself and regard the charge as disputed.

In any case, Dr. Abbas was invited to the White House in his capacity as PA Prime Minister and as a potential peace maker, not for his reputation as Holocaust denier, whether deserved or undeserved. Even if he is a Holocaust denier, his presence at the White House does not seem to have altered American policy with respect to Israel.

The case of former Senator Gravel is more troubling. A perusal of the website of The Barnes Review shows TBR to be an organization dedicated to propagating anti-Semitism. What Senator Gravel was doing there in the first place and what he said in his address to organization would be points of interest in this matter. The Institute's report does nothing to answer these questions. It is puzzling that Senator Gravel, whose history shows no tendencies to Holocaust denial or anti-Semitism, would choose to associate with such a group.

In the body of the report, the Institute cites former Congressman Pete McCloskey address to Tikkun as an example of wider acceptance of Holocaust denial. The report cites a remark McCloskey once made to Mr. Irving at a panel of the Institute of Historical Review group as evidence of Mr. McCloskey denying the Holocaust. While, like the case of Senator Gravel, McCloskey's very appearance before such a group is troubling, the report does not establish that McCloskey was aware of David Irving's position on the Holocaust when he made the remarks quoted. It might be noted that also on the panel was John Toland, author of a well-respected biography of Hitler and hardly a Holocaust denier.

Finally, the report cites as examples of rising Holocaust denial remarks made by the parents of a well-known Hollywood actor. There is nothing here to show that Mr. and Mrs. Gibson haven't always been anti-Semites or that the fact that they embrace such nonsense are causing others to consider their views more favorably.

Is Holocaust denial on the rise in North America? It would be a great concern if it were. However, there isn't much in this report that convinces me that this is the case.
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Actually
The first sentence states "Holocaust denial activity decreased in the United States during 2003"

So, I don't think the report is likely to show, as you asked in your final sentence, that Holocaust denial is on the rise in North America.

They clearly state that it isn't but IS on the rise in many other locations around the world including much of the Arab world including the PA.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Okay, my bad
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 04:49 PM by Jack Rabbit
Still, I would assert that the evidence presented to say that Holocaust denial is a serious problem in North America is very weak.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. It's not that serious of a problem in North America,
but it is definitely a problem in some parts of Europe, and in the Middle East, and several other areas worldwide. You'd think at least Europe would have learned a lesson or two by now.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I have no doubt that's true
And it is a concern.

Nevertheless, this report cites nothing more than anecdotal evidence. There is nothing here to show that the problem in any one place in bigger or smaller in any given place now than it was a few years ago.

The fact that David Irving can rent a hall and get together with likeminded people bothers me a lot more than the fact that a bunch of jokers from the Flat Earth Society can do likewise, but there's nothing here to tell me how big of a problem this is or that they are having any better luck persuading people to look at history their way than the members ot the Flat Earth Society are having getting people look at science as they do. The fact that in Belgium some idiot was convicted of spreading Holocaust denial literature tells me only that at least one person in Belgium was doing this and that one can go to prison for it there. The fact that a grad student in New Zealand wrote his master's thesis to support Holocaust denial tells me only that one grad student in New Zealand wrote a master's thesis supporting denial of the Holocaust.

Given the nature of the charges against former Senator Gravel and former Congressman McCloskey, laid out in the other post, I would be skeptical of what the report's authors say about these incidents.
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. So, how bad a problem does it have to be?
Is there a line for racist false-history that you find acceptable? This is a waiting game. Give it another 25 years and there'll be nobody left who was alive during the Holocaust and all we'll have are competing historical records. That one agrees with every document of the time and one doesn't won't matter. There are lots of people who love to pick up an unpopular historical view and claim it as real to promote their career and worldview. Look around this forum and see all the revisionist history that appears and gets academic belief despite not matching any contemporaneous records.

What people want to believe is what they will believe and believing that a sophisticated, technological world-leading culture with the most assimilated and accepted Jewish population in the world could, in a matter of a decade, go from the culture of Beethoven and Goethe to virtually giving up membership in the Human Race is not something people want to believe. They'd much rather believe that it didn't really happen. And, frankly, there are more people around who'd like that bit of history to quietly disappear than there are people who cry "we will never forget"

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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. That's a good question
It's like Hegel's doctrine of the conversion of quantity into quality. Take a man with a full head of hair. Pull out one hair. Is he bald? Of course not. Pull out another hair. He still isn't bald. Pull out another and and another and another. At some point, we'll say, "Gee, the man is bald." That will probably be long before we've pulled out every hair on his head. So, at what point did we pull out so many hairs (a question of quantity) that the man became bald (a qualitative judgment)?

What you're really asking is: How many racists do there have to be in order to consider the society as a whole racist?

To answer None, whatsoever is simply unreasonable. It sets an unobtainable goal. We're not going to rid the world of anti-Semitism or any other form of racism, no matter how much we'd like to do that. So, it is a question of containing it and the best ways to keep it contained.

Keep the truth out there where everybody can see it. That's the best remedy I can provide.

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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Actually
It's closer to asking when does an evil become profound enough to require notice. In this case, I'd set the bar very low. History has shown repeatedly that this particuar evil grows very fast when not watched.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. True
Edited on Fri Dec-26-03 06:59 PM by Jack Rabbit
So, keep the truth out there where it's easily seen. That's always the first line of defense.

BTW, you say you'd set the bar low. How low is low? That is also a question of converting quantity into quality.

Finally, of what use is this report in informing us that we have a problem of such a magnitude that we should change tactics and do something we are not already doing? In my judgment, this report wasn't of much use for that.

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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Very true, and what people also
don't want to believe is that it's possible in THEIR society and THEIR culture for such a thing to happen, which, I think history has more than shown, is possible in ANY society and among ANY people. And, unfortunately, that's just too much for most people to deal with, which just makes it all the easier for such things to happen. I'm sure there are still some WWII-era Germans who simply refuse to accept the truth of what really happened.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. I would also be concerned
about the sole denial of Palestine deniers, those that deny any land to the Palestinians and their rights. Unfortunately some of it even here...
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Orangeone Donating Member (395 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
23. Why do you care?


Why do American Jews care if there's some anti-semitism in Europe?
Why is this type of racism worse than any other kind? There seems to be so much more hand-wringing about this issue than any other.

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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-26-03 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. A better question would be
Why not care?

Is there any form of bigotry besides anti-Semitism where you'd place a call out to people to ignore it?
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Orangeone Donating Member (395 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. My point is

That it is unfortunate that some people are stupid enough to deny the Holocaust, but it's just an opinion, and a marginal one at that.

People are allowed to have repugnant opinions as long as they don't break the law and discriminate. As a minority (Asian), I realize there are always going to be some people, somewhere that will hate me for my race but I don't think it's worth it to worry about it.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. I agree
as long as it's only an opinion that can be delt with. But the problem becomes if it manifestates in actions (hate crime attacks). Then we have a different story. Fortunately such people are indeed very marginal...
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Orangeone Donating Member (395 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. I Don't Know

some people think it's "irrational" to worry about actual attacks against Palestinians, than to worry about a marginal opinions...
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Oh and welcome
to I/P! :toast: :bounce:
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. Well, maybe because the
consequences of that particular racism going unchecked and being allowed to grow are so terrible. I would think that the blood of six million innocents who were victims of the worst crime in history would be enough to answer your question.
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Orangeone Donating Member (395 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Yes but
Are Jews a persecuted minority at this time? In Europe there seems to be a generalized xenophobia against a lot of groups like Africans and Arabs, not just Jews.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Yes, they are
They have been persecuted for 2,000 years and continue to be.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 03:23 PM
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-27-03 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Well
Edited on Sat Dec-27-03 03:33 PM by MikeGalos
Message deleted by poster since the message it responded to was deleted.
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