5 Palestinians killed; 2 would-be suicide bombers arrested

[drdon326]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1071721348657

Security forces killed five Palestinian combatants, senior members of Islamic Jihad and the PFLP, in an IDF operation to arrest fugitives in Nablus that began late Wednesday night.

In one incident near the adjacent Balata 'refugee' camp, soldiers spotted a Palestinian placing a suspicious bag on the road. After attempting to halt him, soldiers shot and killed him. Come daylight, they discovered a bomb inside the bag, which was detonated by sappers.

In another incident in the Nablus Kasbah, IDF soldiers spotted an armed Palestinian on the rooftop of an abandoned house. Exchanges of gunfire erupted with two more Palestinians joining the gunfight. When the three armed Palestinians were killed, soldiers found AK-47 Kalashnikov assault rifles on the bodies of two, and an M-16 on the third.

Two of those killed were identified as senior PFLP members Jibril Awad and Majdi Hanani. They were wanted by Israeli security forces for some time. A third was identified as a Tanzim combatant.

......................................................................

jibril and majdi....not a good career move, guys.

[GabysPoppy]

1. Another reason for the

PEACE FENCE

[Darranar]

2. What does this have to do with the Land Grab Wall?

[Violet_Crumble]

29. Nothing, from what I can see...

..but with the way it's inserted into just about every thread here by some people, I don't think it's felt like a connection is neccessary because they (and this is a general they, and not aimed at Gabyspoppy) feel the mere typing of the words *PEACE FENCE* raises people's blood pressure and that's the reaction that's wanted. Me, I just find it kind of amusing, especially if the same folk were to ever pop up elsewhere informing anyone else they were resorting to empty rhetoric and sloganeering ;)

Violet...

[Resistance]

3. is that like Peace Bulldozers

that murder Peace Activists?

[JohnLocke]

4. It was a tragic accident, not a murder

[Blitz]

5. Not to mention that

she wasn't a peace activist. Of course, Israel could have saved her life by incarcerating her for a few years and then deporting her. I hope that Israel is more careful in the future with the lives of terrorist supporting criminal hatemongers.

[bluesoul]

6. "terrorist supporting criminal hatemongers"

Oh so now she's that is she? And who made the decision that she's was not a peace activist? You? Don't make me laugh...

[Resistance]

7. are they defending innocence

or justifying the murder?

[MikeGalos]

8. Perhaps reading is harder than sloganeering

but, there are two points:

The organization she worked for also aided suicide bombers

The death was ruled an accident

Of course, all the documented facts bear both those out but it really hurts turning her into the PA's Jessica Lynch.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluesoul]

10. Resistance

the spin is on. Sadly...

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Darranar]

16. Please provide evidence...

that the ISM has aided suicide bombers.

[MikeGalos]

18. It's been on here repeatedly.

Look it up. They don't deny it. They admit they sheltered and housed bombers while they were preparing to attack. ISM didn't deny it. They only said that they didn't know who they were at the time...

Of course, I'm sure you'll want to believe that even with the total lack of evidence...

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Israel also aided the suicide bombers then...

After all, they were in Israel and must have visited offices and such in Israel, so therefore using yr logic, Israel aided suicide bombers...

If you've got any proof at all that the ISM genuinelly aided suicide bombers when they knew what they were and that proof's coming from an unbiased source, feel free to share it with us all...

Violet...

[MikeGalos]

27. Perhaps the law in Australia is different

than in most of the rest of the world (actually, I suspect it isn't), but housing and feeding people while they stage a mass murder is a crime here, and in Israel and, if you aren't killing a Jew, I suspect also in the PA.

Again, this has been widely discussed and even the ISM doesn't deny sheltering, housing and feeding terrorists.

Only their backers online seem to still make that claim. Guess you didn't get the talking points update...

[Violet_Crumble]

28. WHILE they stage a mass murder???

Please provide a single shred of evidence that the ISM housed anyone WHILE they staged a mass murder. More importantly, show some proof that the ISM KNOWINGLY aided them, since that's the accusation yr making...

Huh? Why are you now implying that I denied that suicide-bombers-to-be were in the ISM offices? Show me where I denied that, because I didn't, and made it clear in my post that I didn't...

Violet...

[JohnLocke]

37. Here you go, Darrandar

Her's your evidence. Sighned, sealed, and delivered.
----------------
The International Solidarity Movement supports terrorism

The International Solidarity Movement (ISM) has harbored known terrorists and openly advocated violence and the destruction of Israel. ISM spokesman Raphael Cohen was asked at a May 2003 press conference to define “occupation.” His response: “The Zionist presence in Palestine” (David Bedein. "Support unit for terror," Jerusalem Post, June 25, 2003).
When asked to express his view of peace, he answered, “a one state solution,” by which he meant the creation of a Palestinian state in place of Israel.
On ISM's web site, the Internet directory is called “traveltopalestine.” Their site also located Ben Gurion Airport in “Palestine.” It includes an information packet for volunteers that features a country guide to “Palestine.” The guide lists the landmass of “Palestine” as “26,323 km2 = 10,162 miles2” – the size of the entire State of Israel, plus the West Bank and Gaza. The country guide describes the geographic boundaries of “Palestine” as extending from Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea, and from Lebanon to Aqaba; that is, again incorporating all of Israel.
The ISM does not hide its incitement to violence. Its web site states that it recognizes “the Palestinian right to resist Israeli violence and occupation via legitimate armed struggle.” Cohen admits that, on April 25, 2003, he hosted a group of 15 people at his apartment. Included in that group were Asif Mohammad Hanif and Omar Khan Sharif, British nationals. They subsequently participated in various activities planned by the ISM. Five days later, the two carried out a suicide bombing in a popular pub next to the American Embassy in Tel Aviv that is frequented by Embassy personnel. Hanif and Sharif entered Israel under the guise of “peace activists” and “alternative tourism” – perhaps a reference to the ISM-precursor “Alternative Tourist Group” (Andrew Friedman, "The ‘Neutral’ Partisans," The Review, July 2003). ISM denies responsibility for the actions of the British bombers

More here

At Rutgers in the spring of 2003, the New Jersey Solidarity Movement hung a large banner painted in Palestinian colors in the Student Center that read "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be Free." This is a Hamas slogan popular both among Palestinians and within the ISM. The poetry of the Hamas slogan may come out as mere doggerel in English translation, but the Movement's intention of destroying Israel is made clear, as is -- for those who know that this is a Hamas slogan -- the implied endorsement of the Hamas program.
…
In a widely publicized incident that made many doubt the ISM's claims that it does not collaborate with terrorists, Susan Barclay, an ISM organizer later deported by Israel, attempted to hide Islamic Jihad terrorist Shadi Sukiya in the ISM office in Jenin while the IDF searched the building for him. An ISM spokesman claimed that Barclay had no way of knowing who the man was -- although that would hardly justify her attempt to prevent a search of the ISM offices by an officer of the law who was searching for an identified terrorist. The spokesman went on to say that he was not certain how he would behave if he were himself given the opportunity to shelter a known terrorist from the police.
Tom Wallace, 43, who has traveled from Boston to work as the ISM's spokesperson in Jenin, says the ISMers in Jenin had no idea who Sukiya was when they took him in that morning, and that they were only trying to help a man in distress. And if, in the future, someone who the ISM knows to be a terrorist shows up at the office door requesting assistance? "He's still someone who's hurt and needs help," Tom says, adding that ISM members in Jenin are now debating this very question. "Honestly, I don't know the answer." One year earlier, ISM volunteers went to great lengths to enter the Arafat compound for the purpose of acting as human shields for Arafat and for the terrorists that the ISM volunteer writing this journal entry proudly refers to as the "Ze'evi Five" in honor of the Israeli Cabinet minister whom they murdered.
Here Tamara, a 25-year-old mother from the Los Angeles area who belongs to "Los Angeles Jews for a Just Peace" and who traveled to Israel to work as an ISM volunteer, reports on a lecture from a "calm, well-spoken" Hamas representative who told the audience of International Solidarity Movement volunteers that he does not endorse suicide bombings: “We had the chance to meet with, Dr. Ghazi Hamed Hamed, a representative from Hamas. He is by far one of the most interesting and surprising people I have met here. Calm, well spoken, and very upfront. He spoke frankly, and gave us a picture of Hamas that we would never imagine in the West. He told is about the organizing they do for those in need, the construction of schools and social service organizations. They also have a women's group, "some people misunderstand us. We do not discriminate against women and there is nothing to prevent them from being leaders." He also said that although he supports the Palestinian right (as detailed in international law) to armed resistance, he does not personally support suicide bombings. However he reminded us that many people feel that is the only way they can fight against the occupation.”

More

[tinnypriv]

39. Hilarious

Most of the first is unsourced, transparent lies¹, and the second refers mostly to an event that even the IDF retracted.

Nice try. :puke:

-----

1. For example, the part about the land area of 26,323km² encompassing all of "Israel". This is true, but the very next sentence specifically says the "Palestinian Territories" are just 6,170km². No doubt this slanderer assumed his readership wouldn't check the ISM site for themselves.

[number6]

20. if Peace walls n Peace Bulldozers n Peace Bullits

don't work , next it'll be Peace transfers, Peace ethnic cleansing
Peace death camps ...

[brainshrub]

11. I don't think the arrests happened near the Aparthid Wall.

BTW...it's a WALL.

[Blitz]

12. The Peace Fence

is mostly a fence. Only a very small stretch of it is a wall, and with good reason. If and when it should become the Peace Wall, that would be OK too.

[thebigidea]

13. whatever you call it, it sure does promote PEACE

and now I'm gonna go eat a Peace Burger with Peace Fries on the side over at the Peace Place in my Peace Car while listening to Peace Radio.

[number6]

22. LOLROF Peace bro

;)

[brainshrub]

14. Care to tell us how many kilometers is a fence and how much is a wall?

[MikeGalos]

17. Despite what people scream about

Of the 150 miles of fencing, only 5 miles is a wall.

The wall sections are only built to shield the major North/South highway from areas that have had frequent sniper incidents since a fence wouldn't stop a sniper's bullets from reaching people driving by.

So, the answer is 96.7% of the "Wall" is chain link fencing and 3.3% is a wall.

(Of course, to hear the Palestinian Advocates tell it, you'd never know the facts - but, what else is new.)

Edit: You asked in Kilometers so figure it's about 8 Kilometers of wall and 234 Kilometers of chain-link fencing. Either way, it's 96.7% fence...

[The Magistrate]

19. Unfortunately, Old Friend

What matters about this construction is not its form, but the land west of it yet east of the Green Line. Most of the people living on that land are not citizens of Israel, and have no wish to be. The military regulations promulgated for them cause me great concern: they seem to be designed to render their lives precarious, dependent at best on a bureaucrat's whim for their continued residence on, and use of, their properties. They could very easily be administered in a way that would drive these people off their land, and leave it open for seizure by the Israeli government. It is not only advocates for Arab Palestine who are troubled by this possibility, Sir.

[MikeGalos]

21. Sir

That is absolutely a valid issue but not the one being asked about. There are two wild exagerations being made about Sharon's fence.

The first is that it is a massive concrete barrier. While that IS true of a tiny percentage as I documented earlier, it is only a tiny percentage and that in areas where sniper fire turns driving on a major highway into a life threatening exercise.

The second issue that you brought up is the route. While it admittedly does not follow the "Green Line" exactly, the issue has also been wildly exagerated with showing of maps where people don't understand the scale.

Most of the deviations are matters of a yards to move the fence to the top of a hill rather than the bottom so that it is harder to cross. There are four deviations that are somewhat large.

Three of the four major deviations from the "Green Line" border are only one mile from that border. The most controversial and one that deviates the farthest deviates less than four miles from the "Green Line" to surround the towns of Alfei Menashe and Elkanah where about 8,000 Jews live. While it may not be ideal to follow this route, it is the practical route.

Of course, you'll note that where Palestinians didn't shoot at the highway, no wall is planned. Perhaps the cause and effect should also be considered...

[MikeGalos]

23. Addition

I forgot one (It isn't that controversial). There's also an area where the fence bows out about 6 miles to keep the takeoff and landing flight path of Ben Gurion International Airport outside of the range of shoulder launched missiles. Hardly an unreasonable threat considering the missile launched at an El Al flight last year...

There was also a bowing out to include the Jewish town of Arial but that's not in the current design due to US pressure.

[The Magistrate]

24. Exaggeration Is The Stock In Trade Here, My Friend

Even a mile, though, can encompass a good number of people, and that is my sole concern in the matter, that some thousands of people are being put in the way of some damned shabby treatment. It would seem better to me to have avoided that problem by situating the contruction on the Green Line, and letting some chips, including security in some settlements, fall as they must in that case. No sensible objection could be made to such a fortification, though certainly, some would do so anyway. But it would not gain the resonance that this course allows.

[MikeGalos]

25. One reason it is so easy to fool people

is that the areas involved as so small. Moving the fence a few dozen yards to make it useful would, anywhere else, look tiny but here a sectional map of the wildly irregular border lets people draw an intended wrong inference that is happily not corrected.

As you said, whether the fence followed the Green Line exactly or deviated slightly, it would be the subject of such a disinformation campaign. Personally, I'd rather see it work if it has to be done. Bad PR would happen either way but since Israel will pay that inevitable price in PR from a campaign of lies at least the fence should provide some measure of security for that cost.

BTW: The land taken for the fence is not siezed as would be expected (or again left to improper inference) but remains owned by the original landowner so it can go back to them when normal relations or permanent borders allow it to come down. The owners also get compensation for the land - effectively rent. Also not something that you'll hear much about from those spreading half truths in hopes that people will disbelieve the true half...

[tinnypriv]

31. Despite most of that being lies, here is some advice regardless:

One cannot go on looking away, shutting eyes, ears, mouths, and wallowing hypocritically in acquired and insistent unknowing. Because the State of Israel, on the other side of its eastern border, is conducting a harrowing sequence of evil deeds, callous deeds, robbery, deceit and barbarity. According to the Geneva, Hague and Rome Conventions many of these deserve the label of Crimes of War and Crimes against Humanity. And rightly so.

Note: "robbery", "evil" and "deceit".

I'll let you discover the source. More fun that way.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[newyorican]

32. not true...

not even close.

Total length of Barrier: 644km or 400.16 miles

That would make all of your resultant calculations rather moot. Given the availability of this public domain information, the only question is whether there is some intent to misinform or is the ignorance of these facts genuine on your part.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Separation_Barrier/Statistics.asp

[tinnypriv]

33. Forget those leftists retards, even the GOI refutes that nonsense

I've honestly got to say, this must be one of the stupidest arguments I've ever seen posted in my life. Keeping to the official Israeli sources, and taking their word as gospel truth (which should not be done, but that is another topic):

Of the first stage (140km), 8km is a concrete wall. Hence, 5.7% is a wall so far.¹

Now that alone serves to refute MGalos's point, but the trivial conclusion which should be obvious at a moments thought is if that ratio holds for the rest of the barrier, roughly 20% will be a concrete wall.

It is amusing to see some folks here manage to change a (reasonably projected) "80% fence" into a "97% fence" though.

Is Barak handing out the calculators or something?

...

1. Facts and Figures of the security fence, Seam Zone-Security Fence Administration Website (official GOI). Note that Hebrew is virtually the same as english in this case (there is duplicity in the translation in other sections).

[tinnypriv]

34. Slight update (to newyorican mostly)

Not expecting a response, which is why this is more with regards to newyorican than anything:

• As of today, 146km of the fence has been constructed. Completion is scheduled for 2005.¹



• Amusingly (or not), Palestinian labourers are also "involved in the construction" (according to IDF Deputy Chief of Staff Gaby Ashkenazi).²



• The fence may be over 700km when completed.³

-----

1. Yehuda Golan, Ma'ariv, 23 December 2003. 10 kiometres of the total is in the Jerusalem envelope, the remaining 6km in the Baqah region (around Karnie Shomrom).

2. ibid. The quote is taken from a meeting of the Israeli Foreign Affairs and Defence Committee. No further details given.

3. ibid. A fence of this size is a "political decision", according to Haim Ramon (Labor).

[Come Together]

35. Another view

I don't understand who so many people are unhappy with the new security buffer that Israel is building between itself and the Palestinians. Yasser Arafat's propaganda machine charges that Israel's "racist Berlin Wall" is stealing Palestinian land on the West Bank. It is also trying to establish facts even before new negotiations over final borders have begun.

The Europeans, who never miss a chance to blast Israel, say construction of the approximately 200-mile-long wall-cum-fence will scuttle the much vaunted road map for Mideast peace. Even the Bush White House says the new Israeli security barrier is "unhelpful."

(oops, pro-Pals agree with Bush!)

cut

In growing numbers, Israelis are convinced that the ultimate answer to conflict with the Palestinians may be separation. If so, and if the Palestinians agree to live in peace with a Jewish state, people and goods could flow freely back and forth across a barrier. But if the Palestinians remain committed to violence and unwilling to coexist, the barrier could be sealed.

The line in Robert Frost's poem is right: "Good fences make good neighbors."



http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/103608p-93771c.html

[tinnypriv]

36. Please do me a favour

And don't respond to my posts with irrelevant nonsense. Thanks.

[Come Together]

41. Of course I won't.

I didn't and I won't.

You're welcome!

[JohnLocke]

38. Excellent!

[tinnypriv]

40. Yeah, if you consider some idiot who can't count "excellent"

:crazy:

"200 miles"

[Come Together]

42. Please clarify:

Are you referring to JohnLocke as 'some idiot'? Because that would be a personal attack. :spank:

[newyorican]

43. thanks for that...

NYR