NSA Releases 1967 helicopter intercept transcripts (USS Liberty)

[Resistance]

(yes, the article is recent despite its not being dated)

http://www.ussliberty.org/nsafiles.htm

Haaretz claims they prove the attack was an accident

They prove no such thing

The NSA intercepts prove only that the helicopter pilots were not aware of the ship's identity until they arrived. Intercept of the attack itself, not released and said not to exist but which has been seen by senior NSA sources we have identified, show that in fact they did know they were attacking an American ship.

We survivors say the attack was deliberate because what we saw argues that it was: Prolonged, low-level pre-attack reconnaissance in which the recon pilots were heard telling their HQ that we were American; an extended close air attack with large colors flying throughout; selective jamming of the very frequencies we needed to call for help; torpedo boats that examined the ship and flag from 50 feet away and CONTINUED to fire from close range for another 40 minutes; machinegunning of our liferafts in the water. Then they lied about everything and claimed that they recognized us as American even while the torpedoes were in the water and never fired again. Nonsense. They claim falsely that the boats called in the air attack because they miscalculated our speed from 32 miles away when in fact their maximum radar range was 16 miles and that they judged our speed at 30 knots when we were moving five knots. Nonsense. They claim we flew no flag. Nonsense. If it was a mistake, at least they could tell the truth. If they didn't know we were American, why did they jam American radio frequencies?

Yet the evidence goes far beyond those things; it is virtually absolute. Recently I called Oliver Kirby, a former NSA Ops boss who was called back to NSA in 1967 to look into the circumstances of the attack. He has never before discussed this with anyone outside the confines of the NSA complex, but the first words out of his mouth were, "I can tell you for an absolute certainty that they knew they were attacking an American ship." How did he know? He saw transcripts of Israeli communications during the attack. There was a Navy EC121 overhead (reported recently by Jim Bamford) and an Air Force C130 a few miles away. Both were recording communications. The Navy intake was merely recorded; the Air Force product was sent securely in real time via the CRITICOMM system to Air Force intelligence centers worldwide where it was seen by hundreds of people. Now many of those people are coming forward to describe what they saw. These are the same intercepts that were seen by Oliver Kirby and other top analysts and officials at the National Security Agency. These transcripts are the reason so many top intelligence officials are certain that this attack was no accident.

[Herschel]

1. Perhpas we will need

a USS Liberty forum!

[Jim Sagle]

2. I'm sure David Duke has one already set up.

:puke:

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Resistance]

6. as I'm sure you are well aware, newyorican

this is just another distraction to keep reasonable people from investigating the truth of Israel's intentional assault on the USS Liberty which killed 34 American servicemen.

[Herschel]

8. Will you explain please

the relationship to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

[newyorican]

14. Other than proximity to events on the ground...

none that I can think of. It's a friendly-fire incident which was never successfully addressed between Israeli forces and US forces.

It may have been posted here because the thread may stray into events on the ground, which are I/P related. It usually does.

[Darranar]

9. As I hope you are well aware, Resistance....

the settlements are just another distraction to keep reasonable people from investigating the atrocities committed by the Palestinian terrorists.

No, I don't really think that, but I hope I am showing the illegitimancy of your statement.

[Resistance]

10. no, actually you're not making any sense

since what you've done is to compare bringing up David Duke to criticism of Israel's settlement activity. There is nothing reasonable about your comparison at all. Try again.

[Darranar]

11. The point is...

many of the USS Liberty conspiracy theories have a racist/anti-semitic basis, like those that think the Mossad caused 9/11. That is not to say in any way all, because there are several that raise legitimate points, and, though I disagree with them, I think that they are reasonable.

David Duke is unquestionably anti-semitic. I think we agree there. The idea that he would run a forum on the USS Liberty is used to illustrate the facts that I have outlined above.

Just like many pro-Israel people deny the problem of the settlements, many anti-Israel people deny the problem that many of the conspiracy theories for this and similar things are based on anti-semitism.

[Resistance]

15. just because racists and anti-semites

might pick up on the tragedy of Israel's attack on the USS Liberty - or on something like legitimate inquiry into Israeli involvement with September 11 - in no way delegitimizes those investigations.

It's plainly obvious that Sagle's purpose here was to suggest that those who call Israel's attack on the Liberty intentional are no different from David Duke style racists. I really have to question why you would rush to Sagle's defense, rather than to the side of those he unjustifiably accuses.

[stopthegop]

17. honest question

you speak of "Israeli involvement with September 11" without the word alledged...do you know of actual evidence of this...all I have ever been able to find is along the lines of Jews killing Christian children for their blood...

Thanks

[Resistance]

29. ok I could have said

"possible Israeli involvement" - but do we want to talk about 9/11 or do we want to stick to the Liberty discussion?

If you're interested in evidence, well I don't know what your exact demands are, but a good starting place which raises some very disturbing questions is Paul Thompson's excellent 9/11 timeline:

Israeli "art student" spy ring, Israeli foreknowledge evidence

I can assure you that clicking on the link will not lead you to any suggestions that Jews kill Christian children for their blood.

[Darranar]

30. Israel did have some amount of foreknowledge...

they warned the US.

[stopthegop]

31. thank you n/t

.

[Cassandra]

42. Thanks for that

I love a chuckle at the beginning of a weekend. Resistance always thinks that all accusations against Israelis are worth pursuing; and he does....regularly.

[Resistance]

48. thanks for telling me what I always think

[Cassandra]

50. You're welcome

Thank you for telling us what Israelis think, regardless of what they say about it.

[Resistance]

53. Thanks for the untrue claim

I haven't ever told anyone what "Israelis think". Maybe you could start paying attention before making wild and completely false accusations.

[Darranar]

18. But that fact should be acknowledged...

and what you read from such sites as whatreallyhappened.com and others could well be extremely racist and biased.

The theories of the racist few should not be used to delegitimize the theories of the reasonable, but the theories of those who are truly racist must be watched out for and disregarded.

[Resistance]

20. since none of us here are David Duke style racists

there shouldn't be a problem - yet you and Sagle continue to push the issue. Why is that?

ok to be completely reasonable, of course there are probably a few lurking racists, but for the most part, nobody here discussing the thing is a KKK member or anything close to resembling one - so why continue to distract from the topic?

[Darranar]

21. The sources...

used to prove the points are biased and may use racist sources. That is the basis of what I am trying to say.

[Resistance]

23. So what this comes down to

is you wish to suggest that the survivors of the USS Liberty may be racists.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[Darranar]

26. NO! NOT AT ALL!

First of all, I was speaking generally about sources for this topic. Second of all, it is possible that the sources for this article are indeed biased or racist.

[Resistance]

27. ok I get that

but, again, I still don't see the point in speaking 'generally' about unspecified sources on the issue, since none of us here involved in discussion are KKK racists. Maybe there is some value there in raising the point, but I still see it as mostly being distractive considering the gravity of the incident.

As for this particular article, it was written by survivors of the USS Liberty, hence the only possibility that the sources are racist is to call the survivors racists. Biased is another issue altogether.

[Darranar]

28. Last time we had this discussion...

quite a few links were posted, if my memory serves me correctly. Citing racist sources does not mean that the citers are racist, but it does mean that they could be misled by the racists. It is similar with the source here.

[Resistance]

32. Let me get this straight then

since you and I have unfortunately had some misunderstandings here recently:

Are you suggesting that the survivors of the assault on the USS Liberty have been misled by racist sources? The people who were there, and plainly testify to everything they saw and heard that day, and in no uncertain terms state that they were intentionally attacked by Israel -- the ones who were later told to just go home, shut up, and act like everything is fine -- were misled by others with racist motivations?

If that is what you are suggesting, then one conclusion that might also be made is that the survivors would not feel the attack was intentional had they not been misled by racists. Do you really feel this is a remote possibility?

[Darranar]

33. The survivors, by definiton, are not really...

objective. They watched their comrades die, and they simply cannot atribute it to an accident.

I do think that what they witnessed is important, but it must be kept in mind that what they say is likely not going to be anywhere near free of bias.

I do believe that it is completely possible that they are being misled, or at least those who run USSLiberty.com. It is not certain that they are, of course, and assumptions should not be made in such situations.

I think that many mainstream people would not believe what they believe about the attack on the USS Liberty if there was an objective investigation into the event-which there has been none of.

[Wonder]

38. It is an irrelevant point... this has been trying to surface since it

happened.. white supremists have little to do with it. The guys on the ship know what happened. They were there. Of course after so much time the Napolean premise of news censorship kicks in... and it almost doesn't matter anymore, but for this incident bonded the US and Israel for life... from this point on US monetary support increased and it has yet to wane.

Interesting story USS Liberty. The official story on this smells big. Thanks for the post.

[Resistance]

5. the problem is, none of us would go there

since we aren't the racist slime that Duke is.

Too bad you fail to see the difference.

[newyorican]

3. I'd rather not

and I'm ex-Navy. I wasn't on the Liberty however, so those guys might still be interested in get the GOI is say "uncle" though. That's the most that could *ever* happen anyway, unlikely as it is.

[Herschel]

7. Can we agree

this sad incident is very old, unlikely to draw to a conclusion? It is drudged up to criticize Israel. You know that.

[newyorican]

12. Sort of...

Very old? Yes

Unlikely to draw to conlusion? Unfortunately true. The failure to successfully address this friendly-fire incident has created a lasting culture of suspicion, especially in the US Navy. It has also given fuel to those that are driven by anti-semitism to attack anything to do with Israel. (Handed to them on a silver platter, actually)

It is drudged up to criticize Israel. Here is where we part company. That line rings hollow to those closer to the situation than you or I. The US government bears the brunt of the anger from those closest to the situation. In their eyes, the US Govt has failed to address this honestly, Israel gets hammered for being in on the perceived cover-up.

[StandWatie]

13. I think it's relevant for one reason only

if it was anyone else the reaction would have been spectacularly different especially considering that prior to the '67 war supposedly Israeli/American relationships weren't firmly in the "ally" column.

[Wonder]

40. "Israeli/American relationships weren't firmly in the "ally"...

prior to the 6 day war... after is another story...

[Herschel]

39. The continual coverage of this incident

is far greater than it warrants. I doubt Mr. Resistance would see fit to post articles about this incident were it not for his distaste for the state of Israel.

[Jim Sagle]

41. How much coverage does the death of 243 Marinces

in Lebanon get? How many threads on DU?

The disparity is mystifying.

Isn't it?

[Herschel]

45. Yes, my friend

There are those more interested in raising old suspicions never to be resolved and then rationalize that brazen killing of our brave men. Oh, my.

[Jim Sagle]

46. The Marines were there to protect Lebanon FROM Israel.

Evidently that makes it OK with all the Palestine Firsters on this board that dumbfuck Reagan used them as human sandbags.

[Malikshah]

16. I'm amazed at this thread

Questions as to the relevance of this event to the I/P conflict?
Questions about just "moving on" from the incident?
Questions about this being a distraction?

It absolutely sickens me.

The USS Liberty incident is a sad day in the history of both Israel and the United States.
That bigots like David Duke use this incident for their vile program does not mean that this incident is without merit. To say so is to hide behind a bigot.

The full truth of the affair needs to come out and be faced by all involved--for those of who wish to forget or ignore it, think:
What does that say about you concering Justice, the Value of Human life?

Again--it absolutely sickens me that some of you attempt to write if off or explain it away. Shame on you.

[Darranar]

19. Agreed

n/t

[Resistance]

22. welcome to the Israeli - Palestine conflict, Malikshah

Better get used to the endless parade of distractions and diversions from the hard realities - it's a constant battle, and gets particularly fierce when disturbing truths such as Israel's intentional attack on the USS Liberty are revealed.

[Jim Sagle]

34. And what is this great truth that you know...

and that everyone with the audacity to disagree is trying to suppress?

[newyorican]

25. Why do you think ...

we keep this "crazy uncle" in the basement?

[Jim Sagle]

35. Because he's crazy, and he smells bad?

[Wonder]

37. remember the last scene in raiders of the lost ark?

uncovering this is the same...my guess so many skeletons will come flying outta that pandora's box.

As for the aryan nation and the white supremists utilizing stuff like this, is irrelevant to its merit. USS liberty org has little to do with it.

The white supremist anti-semitic groups also you stuff from palestinian sites.

you just have to what one always does with information... keep reading and cross referencing... stick to the more reputable sources... and the truisms always emerge.

It is amazing what some attempt to write off. I empathesize with your disgust.

[Jim Sagle]

47. Questions, indeed. How DARE anyone question

the noble Arafatchiks on ANYTHING?????????

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SOS]

52. And why would

anyone believe the eyewitness accounts of US Navy servicemen, when the New Republic magazine has declared the attack an accident?

[Elidor]

24. It's no surprise that the amen corner is still eager to explain it away

After all, they have enough to deal with from actual anti-semites without having to fend off the probable wrath of people who view Israel as an ally if it becomes clear to the American public that Moshe Dayan deliberately ordered an attack on a U.S. intelligence vessel in international waters, and did his damnedest to try to kill everyone on board.

What's even more shameful than Israel's actions is that the U.S. government officially accepted the incredibly lame and indefensible claims of a mistake by Israel and swept the entire matter under the rug.

[StandWatie]

43. Dayan was a sinister bastard

After the war he started struting around Jerusalem hinting around that if the Knesset got soft on the arabs and even thought about giving any of the city back he would take over like some sort of mini-de Gaule.

[Elidor]

44. Dayan said at one point

That peace must be made, that the Palestinians must be treated as human beings. Coming from him, of all people, it should have carried a lot of weight. Apparently, it's been forgotten in the mists of time. Today's hawks have no thought of reconciliation. Isolation and eradication are the only program. Security uber alles.

[Scurrilous]

49. The Collector. (Off Topic)

I attended a speech given by Moshe Dayan in the mid-70's. Among other topics, he discussed his extensive collection of Egyptian mummies and other artifacts. Looks like he hung on to his ill-gotten booty.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2002/571/tr3.htm

<snip>
An agreement was signed between Israel and Egypt in 1992 stipulating that all antiquities excavated in Sinai during the Israeli occupation between 1967 and 1982 were to be returned, including those in private collections. Egypt recovered the plundered objects by 1995. They are on show at the Al-Qantara Sharq Museum on the east bank of the Suez Canal.

<snip>

What of the so-called Moshe Dayan collection? "There is a collection of which we know very little belonging to the late Israeli minister of defence who was a known antiquities collector," says Abdel-Halim Noureddin, dean of the faculty of archaeology, at Fayoum University. "This collection was illegally unearthed during the Israeli occupation of Sinai and was never registered. Consequently, we cannot demand its return."

Noureddin said it was rumoured that after Dayan's death some of the objects in his collection were sold by his wife to international museums, while others are on display "somewhere inside Israel."

[Wonder]

36. I would really like to know what Submarine has to say about this?

:kick: