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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 08:52 AM
Original message
The price of intransigence: Good fences
The price of intransigence: Good fences (page 3 of 3)
Mortimer B. Zuckerman.
…Good fences. The fence has attained a certain credibility because none of the suicide bombers over the past three years have come out of the Gaza Strip, where such a fence has been in place. It reflects the geography of the West Bank, with its relatively short distances between major towns--literally, in some cases, a 15-minute walk or drive. Prevention of terrorist attacks emanating from the West Bank without a physical barrier is virtually impossible. Now, because they are prevented from striking in the northern part of the West Bank down to the coastal plain of Israel, the terrorists have been forced to shift their attacks south, toward Jerusalem. The fence, as the head of Israel's Shin Bet security service put it, has already paid for itself many times over in lives saved. No wonder that 80 percent of Israelis from both the left and the right consider the fence an absolute necessity as a last resort in protecting themselves and their children from terror. Their calculation is simple: Fences can be built and torn down; human lives are irreplaceable.
For the most part, the fence lies close to the Green Line of the 1967 border, but not exclusively. It has been attacked as a massive land grab because to secure the high ground and protect substantial Jewish communities, it deviates from the Green Line into the West Bank by several miles. It is critical, however, to understand why the fence is taking the route it is. To build exactly along the 1967 line would play directly into the Palestinian strategy. How? By creating the outline of a de facto Palestinian state in the West Bank, without requiring the Palestinians to cease terrorism, without requiring them to recognize Israel's right to exist, without their abandoning the use of the right of return--without formally ending this terrible conflict.

The real reason for Palestinian objections is that, deprived of the terrorist card, they will have to rethink their unwillingness to confront their own terrorists. They also know that the fence would transform the Israeli role from that of fighting terrorists in the West Bank to preventing terrorists from breaching the security fence. This would make it possible for the Israelis to withdraw their soldiers from the West Bank, to end their roadblocks, and give up their remaining responsibility over the Palestinian population. Thus, the Palestinians would lose the propaganda benefit of TV pictures of the Israeli Army in the West Bank.

The fence is a warning to the Palestinians that their unwillingness to negotiate a compromise will result in the unilateral imposition of a border that might be less advantageous to them than a negotiated outcome. It is also a warning to Israeli settlers determined to remain on the eastern side of the fence that their evacuation is a foregone conclusion--not a matter of if but when.
If there were ever a successful negotiation between Israelis and Palestinians resulting in a peace agreement truly worthy of the name, the precise location of the fence could be discussed and, perhaps, changed. But until such time, a fence will remain an imperative, given how many Palestinians still want to see the onslaught of terrorism against Israel continue. Until then, the message must be that when one society declares war on another, there will be a price to pay. A substantial price.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/031215/opinion/15edit_3.htm
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. Israelis will be the one also paying the price for it
More anger, more desperation, more suicide attacks. And they will have Sharon to thank to..
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. more suicide attacks?
Edited on Tue Dec-09-03 08:57 AM by JohnLocke
More anger................because they can't attack civilians?
more suicide attacks...... They're won't be any if the fence is built.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. So as you say there won't be any more attacks
its OK since it's ONLY the Palestinians suffering, being killed and being depriven of their land, do I get it right?
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Pssttt....
:nopity:
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. "Pssttt..."
:puke:
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Reading Zuckerman's comments
Might have been a good idea.
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pistoff democrat Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. I love you:
You believe the articles posted here need to be read. Quaint.

:pals:
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meti57b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
7. Excellent article with excellent explanation of why the peace fence
is essential. Not only is it excellent defense strategy but it will lead to a peace settlement.
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pistoff democrat Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Fine reasoning!
:yourock:
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I only wish that there were no copyright laws so I could post it all!
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
10. Great article..
Edited on Tue Dec-09-03 11:13 AM by drdon326


"For the most part, the fence lies close to the Green Line of the 1967 border, but not exclusively. It has been attacked as a massive land grab because to secure the high ground and protect substantial Jewish communities, it deviates from the Green Line into the West Bank by several miles. It is critical, however, to understand why the fence is taking the route it is. To build exactly along the 1967 line would play directly into the Palestinian strategy. How? By creating the outline of a de facto Palestinian state in the West Bank, without requiring the Palestinians to cease terrorism, without requiring them to recognize Israel's right to exist, without their abandoning the use of the right of return--without formally ending this terrible conflict."

i couldnt agree more.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. You rock!
:yourock:
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Another favorite part:
"Arafat's road map could not be clearer. As he put it in an interview on Radio Palestine on June 6, 2001: "War is a dream. Peace is a nightmare." This is a man who will neither dismantle the terrorist infrastructure nor allow anyone else to do it. He has the power to crush Hamas and Islamic Jihad, whose military wings comprise about a thousand men while the Palestinian Authority has about 35,000 people in a variety of police, intelligence, and security forces. Instead, Arafat finances and honors them, and has smuggled in huge quantities of weapons for his armed militias.

Despite American and Israeli efforts, Arafat's malevolent influence and control over the Palestinian leadership has not diminished. Nor has the terrorism. It is only the spectacular attacks that gain the world's attention. But there are dozens of credible warnings every week of imminent suicide bombings--30 have been foiled just the past several weeks. And this when the head of the Israeli security service warns that "Hamas is today 90 percent busy with survival and only 10 percent with planning terror attacks." These are the reasons the majority of Israelis have concluded that a comprehensive peace is not possible in the foreseeable future. Land once ceded is hard to reclaim. Peace can be revoked at a whim, as Arafat has demonstrated time and again. Can anyone really still buy the fiction that the Palestinians want to end the occupation in order to get on with their lives? The Israelis want a negotiating partner who will live up to its commitments. Arafat's Palestinian Authority, by contrast, wants the rights of a state while conducting itself like a terrorist thugocracy.

...................................................................



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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. My personal favorite
Very insightful paragraph:

"There are many difficult elements to the proposed Geneva Accord. For starters, its monitors and arbitrators are supposed to be the United Nations, the European Union, Russia, the United States, and various other countries, including Syria and Lebanon. That's what's known as a stacked deck. How could Israel possibly accept rulings from such a group on sensitive security issues?"

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dudeness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. well..that looks suspiciously like the rest of the world
maybe, just maybe, sharon has got this one wrong?
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
37. Why should Israel pay attention
to all those countries, you're right, the rest of the world? Tiny Israel is above all of them.
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
15. Let's all join hands around the campfire
Edited on Wed Dec-10-03 12:43 PM by edzontar
And sing songs about the "peace fence".....

I think the illustrious Tom Friedman has a special or something on about this week.

On Tweety, he characterized the fence as a sign of the failures of the Sharon Government.

But on the whole, he seems to love the fence just as much as you all do.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. You have to love the spin
Edited on Wed Dec-10-03 12:47 PM by bluesoul
"peace wall". Now if that was cooked on FR I would understand. But here...
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. hmmm
"...he seems to love the fence just as much as you all do."

What do you mean by "as you all do"??
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dudeness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. no offence intended don
but there is an oversensitivity issue being displayed in this forum on the usage of wording..most posters to this article supported its content ..that is your view and it is respected..perhaps ed used the term "as you all do " to indicate a response to all posters whom advocated a positive stance to the aforementioned article..I was myself challenged in another thread by the application of the word "you" in a post I submitted as portraying particular citizens of foreign countries (not mine) in a negative light..perhaps we need to cut some slack around here..
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I meant the folks on this thread--it was startin' to look like a love-in
In here...get a room you guys!!!
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Ahem.
Since they can't refute the facts, they insult us. Typical.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. There is nothing to refute
...
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Here's a novel idea -- refute the article.
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pistoff democrat Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Surely you jest!
Perhaps we ought to start doing that; whadja say?

:yourock:
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Some interesting ideas in the article
first, the acknowledgement that the line of the barrier inside the West Bank is to punish the Palestinians, and be held as a bargaining chip for future negotiations; and secondly, the idea of comparing the death rates in the Middle East with the USA.

These work out as:
Israelis killed in the conflict in 2002 419
Israeli population 6.1 million
deaths per 100,000: 6.9

Palestinians killed in the conflict in 2002 1032
Palestinian population 2.9 million
deaths per 100,000: 35

Compare with USA homicide rate (1999, latest I have found): 6.2 per 100,000

So, we can see that the Israelis run a slightly greater chance than Americans of murder (you'll have to add on murders not related to the conflict), while Palestinians run a much greater risk.

Sources:
Conflict deaths: http://www.btselem.org/
US homicide rate: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/pressreleases/2002/BJS02066.html
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pistoff democrat Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. This was exactly my point.
You may or may not have noticed that there is a sort of a gang dynamic here.

No one gives an inch.

I tried to post some articles with both points of view and was rewarded with a lot of abuse, both on thread and via PM.

I'm so sorry that apparently scoring points, ignoring articles and attacking sources rather than substance has apparently won...for now!

Fortunately (or unfortunately), I tend to be a Don Quixote...just need to recharge my batteries. I will tilt at windmills until I die.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. I haven't noticed that at all..
There's been some here for a long time who it's possible to find common ground with. Those who talk about 'sides', make accusations that folks that don't agree wtih them as being abusive, and who refuse to answer questions meant to foster discussion can post all the balanced articles they like. It isn't going to make them someone who is interested in common ground, or is interested in doing much else but what they accuse others of doing...

Violet...
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Here, Here!
:kick: :yourock:
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
20. Insightful
The excellent points made about the Peace Fence on Page 3 of the article have great historical significance. The outcome of this conflict rests with the Peace Fence.
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. how about ....
"The outcome of this conflict rests with the Peace Fence."

justice, understanding, fairness, tolerance ...???

maybe you could build a taller fence, with a buble over it
and seal Israel off from the world <sarcasm>
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. The person who
first called this a peace fence is a jolly joker. "Isolation fence" would be more suitable. Leading an isolated life behind a fence, always on the alert, worrying all the time that somehow a suicide bomber managed to get through, must be boring and scary.
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
25. "Peace Fence" ????
Edited on Fri Dec-12-03 07:02 PM by number6
I think I'd name it the "hateful, land stealing apartied fence"

"Fences can be built and torn down; human lives are irreplaceable.
For the most part, the fence lies close to the Green Line of the 1967 border, but not exclusively. It has been attacked as a massive land grab because to secure the high ground and protect substantial Jewish communities, it deviates from the Green Line into the West Bank by several miles. It is critical, however, to understand why the fence is taking the route it is. To build exactly along the 1967 line would play directly into the Palestinian strategy. How? By creating the outline of a de facto Palestinian state in the West Bank, without requiring the Palestinians to cease terrorism, without requiring them to recognize Israel's right to exist, without their abandoning the use of the right of return--without formally ending this terrible conflict. "
What BULL !!!

"It has been attacked as a massive land grab"
exactly what it is !!


the path of the fence spreads the Isael Armys resouces out, and
makes defense more difficult ....
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pistoff democrat Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Care for a bus ride or perhaps an evening at Maxim's?
Those who oppose the fence say it's really a land grab, that we are prejudging any political outcome and making life harsher for the Palestinians. But we say no, it's not any of these. Categorically, this is a buffer zone. It's certainly not a political border because it can be removed at any time. If the Palestinians stop terrorism, we won't need a fence. By stopping terrorism I mean dismantling their infrastructure, collecting illegal weapons and closing the explosives labs. We can't allow them to regroup; the leaders must be arrested. Do this and we won't need a fence.


http://www.honestreporting.com/SSI/printVersion.asp?PageURL=/articles/critiques/Security_Fence_Distortions.xml&teaser=News+photos+of+Israel%26%2339%3Bs+security+fence+distort+its+physical+properties%2C+and+a+Boston+Globe+op%2Ded+misrepresents+its+placement+in+the+West+Bank%2E
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Maxim's ??
"If the Palestinians stop terrorism" I don't think they can.
they don't have the resources. The Palestinian Police force
has been basically destroyed. If its rebuilt and they have
the will ....

"By stopping terrorism I mean dismantling their infrastructure, collecting illegal weapons and closing the explosives labs."
and intercept, collect all explosives, this will work better than
the wall ....

"the leaders must be arrested." fine with me ...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-12-03 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. That's been addressed here before...
There's no plans for that fence to be anything but a permanent structure. Govts aren't in the habit of spending gazillions of $$$ on something that's just going to be pulled down...

A fence along the Green Line would be a buffer zone. Along the path it's taking it isn't, and no-one has yet explained how a fence taking in Palestinian territory enhances Israels security that a fence along the Green Line wouldn't. It seems way more likely that the suffering being caused by this fence will produce more terrorists rather than do anything to stop them...

Constructing fences in territory that doesn't belong to a state isn't the wisest move in the world if the state in question really wants to portray itself as something other than a rogue state...

Violet...

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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. I find it strange
that people can't see this.

Great post!:thumbsup:
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Blitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 06:07 AM
Response to Original message
35. There may come a day when a fence is not necessary
Unfortunately, given the fact that that day will have to be preceded by the reeducation of an entire people to wean them off of the hatred that they have been indoctrinated with for generations, it will not be any day soon (probably not in the lifetime of anybody reading this). So, for now, build the Peace Fence faster and taller.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. You forgot something...
So, for now, build the Peace Fence faster and taller.

You forgot to add 'and don't build it on territory that isn't part of Israel'...

Violet...
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-25-03 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Exactly!
:thumbsup:
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