Turkey Ups Naval Presence Amid Tension With Israel

[Purveyor]

By Pinar Aydinli

ANKARA | Tue Sep 6, 2011 1:59pm EDT

ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey said on Tuesday it was freezing defense trade with Israel and stepping up naval patrols in the eastern Mediterranean, a sign of growing tension between the two major U.S. allies in the Middle East.

Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan's threat to send warships into waters where Israel's navy operates raises the risk of a naval confrontation between the two powers.

"The eastern Mediterranean is not a strange place to us. Aksaz and Iskenderun -- these places have the power and opportunity to provide escorts," Erdogan told reporters in Ankara, referring to two Turkish naval bases. "Of course our ships will be seen much more frequently in those waters."

Relations with Israel began to unravel after Erdogan voiced outrage at an Israeli offensive against the Gaza Strip, ruled by the Palestinian Islamist Hamas group, in late 2008 and early 2009. They worsened sharply last year after nine Turks were killed during an Israeli commando raid on an aid ship bound for Gaza.

MORE...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/06/us-turkey-israel-erdogan-idUSTRE78522420110906

[jimmie]

1. Erdogan is aching for a fight....

he better stock up on life preservers and body bags.

[azurnoir]

2. sounds like someone is "aching" for something but I'm not sure its Erdogan n/t

[oberliner]

3. He is the one threatening to send warships in Israel's direction

Not sure who you think the someone is who is aching for something?

Or maybe this is just an attempt at a "look over there" post?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. He says he is doing it for national pride and honor...never a good sign

[bemildred]

8. Bushlike, yes.

Dickwaving. Always a subject of concern, belligerent nationalisms.

[bemildred]

4. Naval power: Israel and Turkey

Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish prime minister, has threatened to send warships to escort aid convoys to Gaza, challenging Israel's naval blockade of the enclave and raising the prospect of a confrontation between the two major US allies.

Erdogan's remarks were the latest escalation of tensions since Ankara downgraded diplomatic ties in a dispute over Israel's killing nine Turks in a raid to stop a flotilla from sailing to the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip last year.

---

State Israel Turkey
Submarines 3 14
Anti-submarine vessels 2 n/a
Special marines forces boats 14 24
Missile corvettes 3 n/a
Missile/fast patrol boats 10 26
Mine warfare vessels n/a 69
Frigates n/a 23
Patrol craft 57 98
Landing craft 3 46

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/09/201199171816327708.html

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. You are forgetting armamants and air power

Its not the boats, its what they carry. Also anti air capacity will play a major role for Turkey

Any conflict will be in Israels back yard with it full air power available including ground based SAMs. That could tip the surface action scales in their favor.

The Aljazeera numbers do not square with other sources (mildly)

I presume the major powers will stop such a brawl from happening, but tactically, a "Turkey" shoot is what could be expected.

[bemildred]

7. Do calm down, I am forgetting nothing.

The piece, which I merely posted, but did not write, is comparing naval power, which is appropriate in a naval context. It is true that in an overall military context Israel does not look as weak; but I don't expect, at present, that it will come to that sort of thing; and meanwhile, in this infantile pissing contest, the available tools for naval posturing and theatrics seem the relevant thing.

Relative to Turkey, Israel is weak, fancy weapons notwithstanding, and Turkey would have lots of friends in the event of a real war, unlike Israel, which which would have one, with divided loyalties. Some dimwit brought up the Bar Kochba revolt in an attempt to regulate the content of the forum more to their liking, and that seems entirely appropriate, this is an excellent time to think over how that little donnybrook came out in the end and what the long term consequences were.

[holdencaufield]

9. I don't remember...

Has Israel ever been in a position where it was grossly out-numbered by multiple enemies on several fronts?

Does anyone recall what happened on those occasions?

[bemildred]

10. Emotional babble won't get you far with me.

The fact is sometimes you win and sometimes you lose, it all depends.

[holdencaufield]

11. Sometimes? NT

[bemildred]

12. Pflugh! Nothing happens. nt

[King_David]

13. `Some dimwit brought up the Bar Kochba revolt `

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=362950&mesg_id=363057

Two Comments :


1 ) Ha ha , I have heard that it is very difficult being so smart and not getting any recognition for it from fellow travelers.




2) `Some dimwit brought up the Bar Kochba revolt in an attempt to regulate the content of the forum more to their liking`


Here is a good thread you may enjoy :

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=362672&mesg_id=362672


'Mossad plotted to harm Egyptian fertility'

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. I am calm, just reminding some of the modern concepts of combined arms

The one imbalance that Israel cannot address is submarines.

Turkey's "friends" would not let go to the level of armed conflict. Erdogan's machismo tantrum in this area will be limited from the outside if needed.

[bemildred]

15. As you mention, I am assuming for the moment, that it will not be allowed to come to that.

And as I said, Israel is not as weak as the naval statistics would suggest. The core issue will be logistics, as it always is in a real war, if it is allowed to continue for more than a few weeks, and the real danger is that it could be contagious, it will force the taking of sides.

In a real war, all will lose.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. You might want to look a weapon called Delilah

Battle tested in Lebanon, it has ground and air launch capabilities and can be controlled via UAVs. Single substantive hit will functional kill ships up through a cruiser. IMI is cranking them out. They are one of many things not in the the Al-J numbers.

[bemildred]

17. I'm sorry, war porn doesn't do it for me.

No doubt it works very well, but I don't believe in the survivability of surface ships in modern combat, that's been abundantly clear at least since WWII. So I consider both navies to be (mostly) interesting political props, which is exactly how they are being used. Israel's air force will certainly be relevant if it gets to the point of wanting to destroy the Turkish Navy, but if it gets to that point, I don't expect navies to matter much.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. Research != war porn

It is one of the ways that Israel is changing the calculus, some in areas which the US has not yet mastered.

[bemildred]

19. Let's not descend into arguing about nomenclature.

It is certainly true that technical innovation has played a large part in military history, and I don't mean to insult you, however I worked for two decades in the "defense" business, and if I want to call such advertising and PR efforts for weapons systems "war porn", I will. It is also true, and well worth remembering, that simple-minded faith in simple-minded military theories and new gadgets has played a rather large role in military history too. Technology is not magic, it just looks that way until the other guys catch up.

"Dead battles, like dead generals, hold the military mind in their dead grip." -- Barbara Tuchman "The Guns of August"

I do wish Ms Tuchman was still around, she would have much to say, and say it better than most.

[holdencaufield]

20. A paradox...

What you have here is people basically conflicted. They hate war (who doesn't?) but they REALLY want to see Israel (specifically the 75% of Israelis who practice a particular faith) take a "lickin'" militarily at the hands of a regional power.

So, while they will indulge in a cursory glance at the capabilities of the forces of both sides to their hopes up, they won't submit to a detailed investigation that might suggest Israel won't take the beat-down. Any suggestions along that line will be deemed pornographic.