Israeli Ruling Party Incites for Expulsion of Palestinians

[newyorican]

Israeli Ruling Party Incites for Expulsion of Palestinians from Jerusalem

OCCUPIED JERUSALEM - In a new Israeli violation of the US-sponsored roadmap peace plan, which prohibits incitement by both Palestinians and Israelis, the extreme Moledet party, a member of PM Sharons ruling coalition and of the National Union bloc with seven MPs, presented to Knesset a draft bill calling for the expulsion of more than 200,000 Palestinians from occupied east Jerusalem.

****

The issue of transfer - that is, relocating Palestinians out of western Eretz Yisrael (the eastern part being Jordan) - remains very controversial to the present day in the Jewish state. The main reason for this is obvious. The vast majority of Jews consider it to be immoral, said Boris Shusteff on July 23.

The champions of the idea, Moledet leaders Benny Elon and Aryeh Eldad, discuss it mainly on the pages of internal party publications, Shusteff said, but it is quite probable that the actual number of its supporters is much higher, and people simply do not want to reveal their true opinions, he added.

http://www.arabia.com/newsfeed/article/english/0,14183,411005,00.html
_____________________

More Aparthied laws on the way. I guess the pretense of democracy was too stressful on "little Israel".

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Aidoneus]

2. Not really news

it seems that Moledet is always pressing for this stuff, almost their raison d'etre. :eyes:

[Darranar]

3. And it never gets through...

Few laws anywhere similar to this have ever been passed.

[Malikshah]

5. True, but . . .

That is indeed true, but a few points need to be made to those who wish to write this off as just one radical view:

1) Moledet is part of the coalition
2) They continue to espouse ethnic cleansing along with others not in their party
3) Recent polls in Israel have shown a less than democratic view on the part of many Israelis.

Those who wish to constantly bring up the red-herring of PA textbook studies (do your research folks, these stories have been discounted by *gasp* research...) as "proof-positive" that the Palestinians are teaching hate, espouse hate, etc etc should bear these points in mind.

Those of you who wish to continue to view Israel as the bastion of democracy and human rights should do everything in your power to make sure that the voices of bigotry and hatred w/i the Israeli system be ostracized. Then you can argue your case with a clear conscience.

[Darranar]

6. Recent polls in Israel?

One thing I've learned while studying the day-to-day affairs of politics is never to trust polls.

Do you know that Shinui, which supports seperation of church and state, is also in the coalition?

[Malikshah]

7. Yes, I do

And it doesn't matter. When you sleep with ...

Polls don't matter? Maybe in presidential elections--but does it matter that people are willing to espouse ethnic cleansing and anti-democratic tendencies? They reflect views that people hold about a situation/event--they may not act upon those views today, tomorrow or ever--but at one point they held those views.

It goes back to the "educating hate" issue that is so loved by folks who want to disparage the Palestinians. They argue that by doing so you are changing peoples mindsets, molding their views...

Views that they may not act upon today, tomorrow or ever--and yet folks still (inaccurately) use the "educating hate" argument .

My point: The utter hypocrisy that abounds on the part of Israeli supporters.

[Darranar]

8. It doesn't matter?

So why does it matter that Moledet is part of the coalition? I don't follow your reasoning.

Certainly, some people in Israel advocate ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. Some people in the West Bank/Gaza advocate ethnic cleasning Jews. I bet the porportions are about equal, or perhaps even more on the Palestinian side.

It is not clear, due to conflicting reports, whether or not the Palestinians truly teach their kids to hate. I do not cite that in my arguments, however often it is cited by others who are pro-Israel.

[Malikshah]

10. It's an issue of being consistent in terms of what is right.

It does not matter whether or not Shinui is part of the coalition as long as Moledet is-- I would have thought that this would be crystal clear. The two parties do not negate each other out.

No, you may not use the textbook issue--but any number of pro-Israeli posters do-- the point of my argument is that to write of Moledet and its views as "fringe" and at the same time lump all Palestinians together due to the actions of a small minority is hypocritical and thus weakens any argument that that pro-Israeli poster tries to offer.

[Darranar]

12. Moledet's views...

are fringe. So are the views of Hamas and other terrorist groups.

I assume you agree with Shinui's views, as do I. Shinui in the coalition, however, doesn't make the coalition be left wing, and, similarly, Moledet's presence in the coalition doesn't make the coalition extremist right-wing.

[Malikshah]

15. And Hamas...

Hamas and Islamic Jihad have no love lost for Arafat and the PNA...
And yet, all of the Palestinians are painted with the Hamas, Islamic Jihad brush.

The point is--all groups that advocate bigotry, hatred and violence need to be excised from the govt.

Using Hamas is not the best example-- al-Aqsa--I'll grant you.

[Darranar]

17. Completely agreed....

We have no disagreement here.

[Wonder]

31. Malikshah, I was wondering

Do you have any good links to the genesis of Hamas. I know it was an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, but I am having trouble finding historical commentary on Hamas, and I am wondering in terms of the internet if you could provide me with some links directly related to their genesis, early history of, as well as their philosophy unspun.

That would be much appreciated if you can help in this matter.

[Malikshah]

41. As much as I would like to help...

Spinless material on the I/P conflict is hard to find.
That's one of the main reasons I do not offer a course on the subject where I teach--too much heartache and putting out "small brushfires" from all sides.

Doing a simple Google search with "HAMAS" in the title (which I just did to verify) comes up with a variety of sites--

www.mideastweb.org I believe has some material, for example--but alas it is not well-footnoted (if at all)

Sites associated with the PA or Israel are inherently suspect to both sides.

One can read histories in a variety of places: discussion in Charles Smith's work on the Arab-Israeli conflict, Avi Shlaim's limited discussion, etc.--again there are detractors for all.

It all comes down to this scenario:

In my Modern Middle East class--I have my students read Cleveland's text on the Modern Middle East--pedestrian, but useable. Then I have them review Shlaim's "Iron Wall." I have to get students to become comfortable with the idea that they do not have to believe all they read--but rather critique the views/use of sources etc.

When discussing the I/P conflict I tend to give them lots of information and play devil's advocate. Maps, diary entries, documents are used--and all need to be analysed.

In the end--students (hopefully) realize that it is up to them to make up their own minds -- they need to do so with an open mind--that's all I require-- Rational thought and consistency.

Sorry for the long, seemingly fruitless answer--but your question deserves nothing less than a candid response.

[Wonder]

42. Yes I Understand the Various Contraversies

Between the Israeli and Palestinian Narratives and all the various disputes, vilifications, legitimate doubts (though sometimes it does get hard to deciper what is legit and what is pure propaganda). There is diversion from so many sides. Of course you read around the topic long enough TRUISMS begin to emerge.

Interestingly I have been hesitant to indulge the Palestinian Narratives, however when they come up in my search and something strikes me I find cross referencing is possible. There does seem to be a deficit in documentation from the Palestinian side, which Edward Said seems to lament about frequently, a lack of scholarly enquiry. These scholars come under attack from both the Israeli Side as well as from the Arafat PA itself, and seem to be disqualified out of hand and for sometimes irrational reasons and more so than not within forum discussions.

Going back to the Palestinian narrative, take for instance palestineremembered. This site seems in great part to fill in facts which the official Israeli narratives have chosen to omit. Oh yes I realize they are at great odds with zionism without perhaps makeing the appropriate delineations, but that seems understandable, and can be revised appropriately if there could just be some honest reconciliation even of the disparity between narratives.

What I mean to say is, I don't find that site per se purveying militant racism or propaganda, there seems to be a sincere attempt to document their own history. Toward that end, I find the Israeli revisions are most helpful even though sometimes their final conclusions or interpretations lean in bias toward the rationales behind the Israel defense, which is to be expected.

My interest in Hamas is that it seems Hamas serves two functions. One is the obvious militant terrorism, but of course there is the matter of rightful resistance as well as a question of funding, as it seems they do also provide humanitarian and medical aid to those areas that are cut off by curfew or road block. I believe this is why I have so much interest in unspinning some of the bunk on Hamas.

I am not saying a fanatic islamist element does not exist within the group, but again like Jewish resistance and the terrorism of Irgun and Haganah and the racist traces in the transfer policies as well as the zionist nationalism projects are rationalized, something leads me to believe that similar rationales do to some degree apply to Hamas as well, at least in the scheme of it all.

I believe I already checked out mideastweb.org on Hamas, but I will have to double check. I find mideastweb.org is a more pragmatic and balanced site, but I must tell you I am not altogether sure of their slant either. Certain phrasings have left to wonder, yet I can not put my finger on the questions it raises within me...something I can't put my finger on...

[Tinoire]

100. Wow Malikshah

Can I welcome you a second time to DU?!

:toast:

[Malikshah]

106. Thanks

Sorry bout lack of earlier response-- nice to be welcomed by folks

Been reading for a while--just started posting

[Tinoire]

99. I just found this site tonight

so I won't vouch for it and use at your own discretion but the 2 articles I read earlier seemed balance.

Yasser Arafat: The Man and His People http://www.ameu.org/summary1.asp?iid=175 from Americans for Middle-East Understanding

I have not read this yet but your question, this thread makes me want to read it tonight.

[Tinoire]

98. Very well said Malikshah

Additional note that DU is having some very intense, tense, meaningful conversations between good posters tonight in almost all the forums, even the lounge. Both of you that was well discussed.

[Gimel]

161. Really?

I don't think it's hypocrisy at all. The hypocrisy is that people try to "educate" themselves by judging others rather than from real knowledge or information from first-hand sources.

Current assessments are that the level of incitement in media broadcasts has been reduced and toned down. It was glaring previously, to anyone who had a chance to hear the Palestinian radio and tv.

[Malikshah]

178. Sorry, but

It is hypocritical, inconsistent, disingenous and flat out wrong.

You can continue to believe it isn't--but in the end, you'll still be incorrect.

[Gimel]

36. Indeed

this is a vary vague statement:

Recent polls in Israel have shown a less than democratic view on the part of many Israelis.


I wouldn't trust it either.

[Malikshah]

40. Vague? OK-- follow the link.

Here's a link to a May Report in Israel

http://www.idi.org.il/english/article.php?id=29773543ee323b0d72ccc5763e07d294

Of all else fails--go to www.idi.org.il

Let the spin begin

[Gimel]

45. Points been made

Israeli democracy is still developing and it's also true that many Israeli citizens have a greater adhesion to group conformity and loyalty to Israeli culture than in more individualistic democratic nations. I've also raised this point in my previous posts; that democracy as a concept is poorly internalized, yet I don't feel that Israeli democracy has to resemble every other democracy. Indeed, I think that Israel is in a position to bring democracy to a new height.

Look at the unique cultural interests and the conflicts generated:

The relationship between religion and state is one of the most crucial issues in the cultural and political life of Israeli society. It creates political parties, topples governments and takes center stage at any public debate on the constitution, law or civil rights. In addition, it is at the core of the argument concerning Israel’s national identity and culture and puts a decisive stamp on its relations with the Diaspora, in the shape of the Law of Return and the Conversion Law. It can safely be assumed that the relationship between religion and state will continue to present a source of problems and controversy – at the communal, legal, ideological and existential level – in the future. The Israel Democracy Institute is therefore examining alternative approaches and models with relation to this issue, on the basis of Jewish and Western sources, with the aim of offering new solutions and perceptions. At the same time, the Institute is also examining the social and ideological tensions that arise from Israel’s constitutional character as a state that is both Jewish and democratic.
http://www.idi.org.il/english/departments.php?did=82



This link to the website you posted is evidence of the continuing self-analysis, and efforts to direct public interest towards more democratic processes.

If you were a student of Torah, maybe you could also point to the roots of democracy the the Jewish scriptures. This project is evidence of the very Jewish nature of the democratic process.

The Israel Democracy Institute, based in Jerusalem, is an independent, non-partisan think tank dedicated to strengthening democracy in Israel. It is a public policy institute on the seam between academia and applied public policy. It serves the Knesset and its committees, government offices, public institutions, local government, and the political parties by undertaking research and making recommendations for reform and change.


Also note on the same page:

On the other hand, on the issue of corruption, the case is quite the opposite: the Israeli public feels that the situation in Israel is much worse than the experts rate it.


Israelis daily life is more community oriented. People in the same building actually elect a committee to run the affairs of the building, and that is standard everywhere. That is grass-roots democracy. Israelis talk more to one another, and may argue more, but there is an attempt toward fairness in practice. As for acceptance of other cultural groups, that comes more slowly, but I find Israelis to be more open-minded than the average American. there have been many cultural conflicts in other democratic nations throughout history. Israel is not alone there.

Israel's democracy has strong points also:

Despite the decline in trust in public institutions, the Israeli public trust in its institutions is relatively higher than that in other democracies. However, social trust between members of society ranks lower on the international comparative scale.
http://www.idi.org.il/english/article.php?id=29773543ee323b0d72ccc5763e07d294



By calling any responses a "spin" simply seems to indicate that you are unwilling to really consider any viewpoint other than your own. However, the URL you posted is excellent. My comment on the third point of the criticizm of Israeli democracy still stands. It is vague and unsubstantiated. The very fact that this study is an on-going project with the joint auspices of the President of Israel and the Israel Democracy Institute points to the central place democracy has in Israel's interest.

[Malikshah]

47. I am willing to listen to viewpoints

Not propaganda--

Going back to the Torah as evidence does not work in this argument.

I call it spin--for those who wish to view Israel as a democracy do so in order to contrast it with the countries around them and thus use Israel=only democracy to gain some sort of moral advantage or support.

Am I saying Israel is not a democracy-- no

What I'm saying is that those who wish to use the democracy argument to support Israel are not being completely honest and straightforward.

[StandWatie]

it's funny as hell..

that whole diatribe about the Torah reminds of what the Saudi foreigh minister had to say about democracy when confronted by Al-Jazeera instead of by CNN and it was the same speil.

Boiled down to "The Saudi constitution is the Koran and no Arab anywhere (he was talking to Al-Jazeera(!) ) would ever say there is any constitution that could be as fair and democratic as the Koran"

[Gimel]

154. No one said that

How can you claim that what I said is even close to what the Saudi foreign miniter said?

The Israeli constiutuion is not the Torah and no one that I know of has ever made that claim.

Sometimes folks just pick up on one or two words and throw something together that seems relevant.

:eyes:

[Wonder]

92. this is an interesting bit here

I agree with your points... and as far as torah practice: there are antizionist jews that argue the zionist nationalist project along with the militarism goes against torah practice. Some of their arguments are quite piogniant. Another raging debate within the complex and multifaceted Jewish ethos or imago.

[Darranar]

93. The question here is about definitions...

In my opinion, a state where the vast majority can vote is a democracy. Its actions do not make it cease to be a democracy.

That is what makes Israel a democracy-if you don't count the PAlestinians since they don't really live in Israel.

[Tinoire]

102. But Darranar

That is what makes Israel a democracy-if you don't count the PAlestinians since they don't really live in Israel.

We HAVE to count the Palestinians because they really do live in Israel! And/or on land that Israel wants.

http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/seperationmap_eng.swf
http://www.gush-shalom.org/english/ (for later reading)

And you can watch it all happening in this Wall Presentation made by the Israeli Left.


Yes, that is the whole problem, you HAVE to count the Palestinians. They are not going away and that seems to be their biggest crime- not going away.

[Darranar]

103. Indeed...

The Palestinians live in an area that the current Israeli government wants. They need their state-and not a demilitarized one.

And when the Palestinian state is created, the vast majority of the settlements are removed, and Shinui's aims within Israel become accepted, I will truly be able to, without exceptions or qualms, call Israel a democracy.

[Tinoire]

105. Darranar

Please check your in-box.

And I promise you this is much nicer than the love-notes Lithos send us all ;)

It was such a pleasure to read that post but not a surprise.

Shalom

[Ruminator]

112. I Agree

I agree completely.

Israel is more of a democracy than the surrounding states, but it is not a complete democracy untill the palestinians are given there state, and are no longer living in land belonging to the Israeli government.

;-)
:toast:

[Gimel]

155. another requirement

I believe a democracy by definition must have a representative government, elected by the people (adult citizens). Elections must be free and candidates must be selected by the people as well.

It is difficult to call an election in which there is only one candidate for an office democratic, but it can be accepted by definition.

[Malikshah]

159. There's more to a democracy than voting

If there weren't and we based the definition on your criteria--the US ceased to be a democracy in December 2000.

I know you were saying that this was one criteria--

There are others involving a free press, due process, life liberty and the pursuit of happiness etc.

The US is still developing as one--as is Israel. The fact that the US has stymied efforts around the world (including w/ the I/P process) does not bode well.

Hopefully we will turn the pendulum back not only domestically but with regard to our foreign policy.

Democracy is a complex concept and should not be used as a litmus test until its full definition is accepted by those involved.

[Wonder]

163. once more

what does Israel democratic process have to do with GOI's controll of PA electoral process. Again, I draw your attention to the Israeli-Palestinian Liaison Committee. Every which way you analyze the Oslo process one comes to understand relinquishing control of the OT's or any real power to the Palestinian people in terms of voting power, was all a show.

Israel wants separation from Palestinians yet also wants to maintain full control of their process, their police enforcement with say even about their arm. Who is anyone kidding. Israel is an Apartheid state where in Jews are priviledged members.

[Gimel]

158. Funny

How you picked up on the one comment that was really not a part of the "argument". Anyway, welcome to the I/P forum.

[Malikshah]

179. Funnier still--

I wasn't the one that brought up the Torah in this instance.

Bringing in the Torah was an attempt to lend credence to your point--trying to give it...gravitas. Sorry didn't work.

BTW-- trying to attack my calling you on it is on well-worn ploy--again--doesn't work.

Thanks for the welcome, by the way. Love it on the boards.

[Tinoire]

97. Darranar. People like you need to speak up!

People like you need to stand next to Uri Avnery and say NO.

Next to people like this http://www.doublestandards.org/williams2.html and say no- because you Darranar care about justice and peace. And peace demands that we all stop avoiding it and look.

I love you Darranar for being my God-created brother in this sad, pathetic world and I hope my post doesn't offend you.

[Darranar]

101. Tinoire...

thanks for the kind words. I took no offense from anything in your post, so don't worry about that.

As for speaking out... I am already looking for a way to do that, with the government in the US advancing imperisalism. On this issue itself, I am looking for a reasonable pro-Palestinian humanitarian organization that I can donate to. Do you have a suggestion?

I already try to explain the Palestinian side to family and friends who don't see it, and I intend to continue, despite the possible derogatory remarks made about me by the more AIPAC-style Jews in our community.

[Tinoire]

104. Thank you. I felt the rest

And I LOVE YOU for it! I can't think of one because I donate my money directly to the Franciscan brothers there with a friend's help.

I would suggest you ask Adam Shapiro, the American who went to IP and caused such a ruckus. He is Jewish from Brooklyn with a Palestinian girl-friend and they are both COMMITTED to peace and determined to do what it takes.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0404-01.htm
http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index.cfm/action/tikkun/issue/tik0207/article/020711c.html

If I find his e-mail anywhere, I will send it to you.
I am not saying you should send it to the IMF (though the percentage of American Jews working with the IMF would pleasantly surprise you) but that such a man would understand your concern and be the best person to ask.

He is someone I would trust with being responsible, knowledgeable, and sensitive enough to give you the best advice.

Shalom Darranar

On edit: I expected no less from a Kucinich man. You have so much depth. Check out this thread. I think you'll appreciate it. I was so awed: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=109485&mesg_id=109485

[Wonder]

19. Benny Elon Comes to Washington

I never let the thought go since that trip.

No this is very old news predates UN Partition in 1948.

[Tinoire]

96. NO Aidoneus

What is really news and disturbing is the lack of outrage.

Decent men are once again standing by and saying nothing and more cowardly men pretending they don't see what evil men are doing!

It is time for the world to stand up and say NO to this NAKBA !!!!

[Ruminator]

115. I Agree

I AGREE

[Wonder]

186. Yes that is exactly what it is

Another Nakba!

[vierundzwanzig]

4. Let them go on with this

... at some point (like the marriage cohabitation law) it will become untenable within the context of the international community. WHile Europe already halfway shuns Israel, this will drive the nail into the final coffin.

Eventually even DeLay will have a hard time reasoning such abominable legislation. Distrusting terrorists is one thing but this is undoubtedly another.

[Ruminator]

122. Marriage Cohabitation Law

Does anyone know why Israel thinks that law will hlp prevent terror?

[Darranar]

123. Ask Gimel...

I certainly don't know, but she may be able to sketch out a strange reason for you.

[Herschel]

9. Were it not for the terror

These bills would have less support.

[Malikshah]

11. Reverse is true too

Were it not for these bills and the views that have been there from the beginning--there would be no terror.

[Darranar]

13. I disagree...

There will always be hatred and racism without justification. The terrorist acts would perhaps be less common if not for such views, but they would still exist, along with the hatred and racism.

[Malikshah]

14. My point is that terrorism is a symptom not the disease

We might actually agree in the larger picture--

Terrorism is a symptom--of hatred, of despair--brought about by any number of causes that have yet to be diagnosed.

To treat the symptom w/o treating the cause is futile

[Darranar]

16. Hatred is often unjustified...

there is often no blame on those hated, but rather on those hating.

I agree completely about treating the cause, but the symptom but be combated simultaneously.

[Wonder]

26. Little hope of that without the needed

accountability and understanding of the cause itself!

[Darranar]

28. Agreed as well...

accountability on BOTH sides.

[Wonder]

29. Please can you sum up what you feel each side must admit

and be accountable to for there to be true reconciliation and peaceable and positive resolution of this conflict.

[Darranar]

30. Both sides need to admit that people on their side...

have committed terrorist acts. They must address those acts and investigate them and properly punish those who committed them.

[Wonder]

32. You feel punishment is the main focus?

what of Palestinian terror (excluding suicide bombing) that is and was actually Palestinian defensive resistance?

And what else in more specific terms do you feel is being denied but should be admitted besides terrorism perse?

[Darranar]

33. Israel needs to admit...

that bulldozing houses and building settlements was the wrong thing to do. The Palestinians need to admit that their government was hardly pro-peace.

The killing of innocent civilians-settlers not part of the IDF included-counts as terrorism, no matter where it occured. the killing of soldiers/militants by both sides may go unpunished, under the condition that it will not happen again within the two-state solution until the other side attacks.

[Wonder]

34. still seems too superficial to me

this thing has been fester since al nakba. You seem to only focus in on the last three years with little recognition of the countless civilian Palestinian deaths. I just thought I would ask.

[Darranar]

35. Didn't I just say...

that Israel has to admit that terrorist acts have been committed by them as well as the Palestinians? Whatever happened to reading posts that you reply to?

[Ruminator]

128. "Defensive Resistance"

You could also then say that Israelis shooting missiles into houses that have palestinian terrorists in them with their families is also "Deefensive Resistanse" against suicide bombings. If you say that terrorism is okay as long as it is "Defensive Resistanse" you justify almost all terrorist attacks today. They are all in response to something.

[Wonder]

164. No! You can say that

I tend to like to call a spade a spade. Israel has perfected the meaning of the strategy preemptive wherein justification is often a matter of baiting the enemy.

But I have been all round and round the various bends on the Israeli is only defending itself propaganda and doctrine.

Snip

The basic doctrine is that Israel has been a hapless victim-of terrorism, of military attack, of implacable and irrational hatred. It is not uncommon for well-informed American political analysts to write that Israel has been attacked four times by its neighbors, including even 1956. Israel is sometimes chided for its response to terrorist attack, a reaction that is deemed wrong though understandable. The belief that Israel may have had a substantial role in initiating and perpetuating violence and conflict is expressed only far from the mainstream, as a general rule. In discussing the backgrounds of the 1956 war, Nadav Safran of Harvard University, in a work that is fairer than most, explains that Nasser "seemed bent on mobilizing Egypt's military resources and leading the Arab countries in an assault on Israel." The Israeli raid in Gaza in February 1955 was "retaliation" for the hanging of Israeli saboteurs in Egypt-it was only six years later, Safran claims, that it became known that they were indeed Israeli agents. The immediate background for the conflict is described in terms of fedayeen terror raids and Israeli retaliation. The terror organized by Egyptian intelligence "contributed significantly to Israel's decision to go to war in 1956 and was the principal reason for its refusal to evacuate the Gaza Strip" (Israel- The Embattled Ally, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1978).

To maintain such doctrines as these, or the analysis of alleged fact that conform to them, it is necessary scrupulously to avoid crucial documentation. Safran, in his 600-page study, makes no use of major sources such as the diaries that Livia Rokach reviews here, relevant parts of which had been made public in 1974, or the captured Egyptian documents published in Israel in 1975, or other sources that undermine these analyses (see footnotes 19, 20). Much the same is true of the mainstream scholarly literature and journalism fairly generally. "
(http://abbc.com/historia/zionism/rokach.html)

end snip

Not a very popular view due to so much propaganda which is embedded in Zionist Nationalism and its project, as well as suppression of some of the finerpoints and facts, but the above constitutes a broader and quite viable perspective

[Ruminator]

126. I Agree Completely

[Herschel]

18. Treating terrorism?

Caving to terror! Please!

[Wonder]

25. Terrorism Schmerrorism

PLEASE so much focus on Terrorism not enough focus on cause and peacefull diplomacy as remedy, and let's not forget the cause of the Resistance, either!

[Herschel]

37. You tell me

not to focus on a bus of people blown to pieces? And then call that resistance? Oh, my.

[Wonder]

43. I have asked this question before of another poster

After perusing the history from let us say TE Lawrence prior to syke picot, and factoring in the history of Jewish Resistance going back to the Warsaw uprising throught its respective evolution to the activities of Irgun and Haganah, tempered with sincere contemplation of the devastating result of Israeli transfer policies both obvious and finagled within the guise of war, along with the terrorist operations throughout all of the Israeli history to date with ponderance of those performed in the 50-60-70 (don't forget the Lebanon Invasion): please can you list all the reasons you can think of in addition to anti-Semitism and racist Islamist militance of why both Palestinian Resistance and terrorist tactics brazenly and outwardly has chosen to target Israeli civilians?

If you can do this I have another question.

[Darranar]

58. Oh, please...

I could counter any one of those arguments, but then we would have an argument that would go around in circles.

I'll just make one comment: Palestinian resistance that targets Israeli civilians is not resistance, it is terrorism.

[Wonder]

63. LOL

because you say you can counter those arguements I should abandon perfectly good rationales? I don't think so! What was good for the goose is good for the gander here. Israel should only get a walk on terrorism with no accountablity for the price and damages, while retribution was paid from germany and swiss bank accounts were opened to acccount for the damages and the horrific persecution of the Jews? I don't think so!


did you see the teddy katz thesis:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=2407&mesg_id=3541&page=

your friendly haganah! It is time Israel is made accountable. Will it happen? I wouldn't bet on it! watch real close... as this moves into another "catastrophe"! Has it escaped you the great loss on the Palestinian side from jump through to now. And the grand exodus that this Sharon insurgence as instigated in these last three years. Or is that Jewish life is far worthier than Palestinian life?

You will have to forgive me and really I mean no disrespect, nor do I question Israel's right to exist. I just have trouble understanding the blind spot here. They have a right to exist; they have a right to acknowledge and account for the great damage their resistance/terrorism/cause has been responsible for creating.

And do not come back with this on both sides stuff. Because you know what? The Palestinians are being made accountable for their terrorism. There is no Palestinian side of the story reported in the US. There is no way they can get away with denying it either. On the other hand Israel has never been made to account for their actions. Never.

[Darranar]

64. There were extremists in the Hagganah...

as there are currently in the IDF.

Anyway, will you respond to my point? Palestinian resistance that involves killing innocent civilians ceases to be resistance and becomes terrorism.

[Wonder]

65. More excuses!

at the time of tantura it was haganah! The blindspot is remarkable really.

Palestinian resistance continues because their grievance was never addressed and they still answer terrorism with terrorism. Have you forgotten the blatanted torments of the occupation, or is that also incidental or anecdotal?

You really don't have an argument. Just excuses with no real merit.

[Darranar]

68. So terrorism is justified, isn't it?

The Palestinain suicide bombers are freedom fighters, aren't they, seeking revenge for the brutal Israeli occupation... :eyes:

Sometimes what you say is quite reasonable; other times not.

[Wonder]

70. Well don't you justify Israeli terrorism?

and the wheel goes round and round.

If Zionist Leadesr had not been so determine for dominance over the people that had inhabited Palestine, if the core aims of hardline Israeli Leaders had not been laced with racism and had not been so deceptively stubborn about their expansionist goals and their well covered transfer policies and their stronge intent to institutionalize this occupation and instead had genuinely saught peace instead of full control and had testified to the damage and the loses at the hand of the Israel's might sword we might not be having this this heartbreaking conversation.

Israeli stands on the threshold of a horror that they are mightily armed to unfurl upon innocent Palestinian people. Have you not read the human Rights bulletins? Are you completely in the dark about exactly the torments Israel seems to have justified? Have you really been following closely here? While it looks like GOA gives Isreal a walk in the park on this... in my book the do not get let of the hook here. There are principles at stake here... and they are not innocent. How convenient for the Jewish Resistance they feel the are within their rights to put this whole thing on the Palestinians. The do not get a walk. Not in my book.

[Darranar]

71. Since when do I justify Israeli terrorism?

Do you want me to look back at our discussions and my discussions with others and count how many times I have condemned it as inexcusable?

[Herschel]

72. Pardon my interruption

In what way do you see Israeli terrorism?

[Darranar]

73. I see Israeli terrorism...

in IDF members shooting Palestinian children in the head, in IDF members having little or no respect for human rights or human life as they go about their business in defending Israel.

[Wonder]

83. Darranar

My words in their passion were not intended with malice. The whole lousy thing is heartbreaking... too many suffer... Sometimes my thoughts just overflow out of me... like I'm pleading with the universe... not anyone here... I have no anger toward anyone here.

[Darranar]

85. Thank you, Wonder...

for clearing that up.

Soemtimes I feel the need to plead with the universe as well.

[Wonder]

87. I do it all the time.

people sometimes misunderstand my intent. I have come to understand the passion better... at first I didn't... with understanding I have more and more come to learn to let it move through me... holding on to it... is not advised.

[Herschel]

111. To clarify, my friend

The accidental shooting of a civilian is not terrorism. If it were deliberate, it would be without the direction and consent of the IDF. It would be a criminal act.

[Darranar]

116. Of course...

but unfortunately, my friend, some shootings of civilians by IDF soldiers are clearly done on purpsoe-wounds to the head and the like. Some are certainly accidental as well, but those incidents, when committed with the purpose of murder in mind, are indeed both terroristic and criminal.

[Herschel]

119. It is a rare occasion

for an IDF member to be found guilty of deliberately shooting a civilian. Still, it is an individual criminal act, not an act of terror.

[Darranar]

121. Regardless...

it is indeed an act of terror, which I believe covers any murder with a basis in hate done for a political purpose.

[Herschel]

168. Your definition is sound

Yet I do not believe the very rare IDF soldier that willingly kills a civilian does so to advance a political cause. Therefore, it is not terror.

[Tinoire]

171. Thank you Darranar, toda raba

for reminding us all that their are two sides to the pain, the injustice and the atrocities.

You're our own version of www.bitterlemons.org in F/A.

Hen hen. Anni moda lekha. (Not bad for a Sabbat Goy eh?)

Peace

[Darranar]

172. Thanks to you too, Tinoire...

Thanks for the link, and for the kind words. No, its not bad at all.

[Tinoire]

169. You know Herschel. I found this months ago

and had refrained from using it because there's already enough hate in this world and in this forum but your obstinacy needs no less than this.

In a chilling interview conducted by Ha'aretz correspondent Amira Hass, an IDF sharpshooter admitted it was IDF policy to shoot at children above the age of 12. Here is an excerpt :

(AH) You haven't shot children.

(IS) "All the sharpshooters haven't shot children."

(AH) But nonetheless there are children who were hit, wounded or killed after they were hit in the head. Unless these were mistakes.

(IS) "If they were children, they were mistakes."

(AH) Do they talk about this?

(IS) "They talk to us about this a lot. They forbid us to shoot at children."

(AH) How do they say this?

(IS) "You don't shoot a child who is 12 or younger."

(AH) That is, a child of 12 or older is allowed?

(IS) "Twelve and up is allowed. He's not a child any more, he's already after his bar mitzvah. Something like that."

(AH) Thirteen is bar mitzvah age.

(IS) "Twelve and up, you're allowed to shoot. That's what they tell us."

(AH) Again: Twelve and up you're allowed to shoot children.

(IS) "Because this already doesn't look to me like a child by definition, even though in the United States a child can be 23."

(AH) Under international law, a child is defined as someone
up to the age of 18.

(IS) "Up until 18 is a child?"

(AH) So, according to the IDF, it is 12?

(IS) "According to what the IDF says to its soldiers. I don't know if this is what the IDF says to the media."

(AH) And children are from 12 down. Is there no order that between 12 and 18 you shoot at the legs and not the head?

(IS) "Of course we try to see to it that he really is over
20."

(AH) In the 10 seconds that you have.

(IS) "In the 10 seconds that I have, I have to estimate how old he is."

(AH) And in what direction the wind is blowing, and the deviation here and there, and which way he'll jump the next moment.

(IS) "Yes, but there are hardly any mistakes by sharpshooters. The mistakes are made by people who aren't sharpshooters."

(AH) And it turns out that they happen to hit the children's heads, and all this is just by chance?

(IS) "If you say you have seen children that have been hit in the head a lot, then it is sharpshooters."

(AH) So what you're saying is that our definition of children is different.

(IS) "Your definition is different."

(AH) Because for you it's someone who is 12.

(IS) "Yes."

(AH) But a child of 13 doesn't bear arms, no matter what you call him, a boy or a teenager or an adult.

(IS) "He isn't holding a gun but a firebomb, and in certain places it is possible also to fire on people who throw firebombs."

<"Don't shoot till you can see they're over the age of 12," Ha'aretz, November 20, 2000>
http://www.counterpunch.org/sunil1.html from the couterpounch article

and you can read the entire interview here: http://www.labournet.net/world/0011/israel6.html


Do you know Ami Isserroff? Well he and I have a personal correspondence going and he is 100% Zionist and supporter, lover, of Israel his home. But he is a GOOD man Herschel. A good historian and a man with a conscience. I leave you with his words:

It is long past time for Israeli Zionists, like myself, to apologize. The Israeli government has never apologized for the massacre of Deir Yassin, though the Jewish Agency apologized to King Abdullah in April 1948. The perpetrators of the massacre at Deir Yassin were never punished, though there was a great hue and cry at the time. Victims were never offered compensation. Therefore, and as long as this is true, the massacre at Deir Yassin has become the dubious moral property of all Zionists. We cannot sit back and say 'this was the fault of the revisionists.' The massacre at Deir Yassin may have set the pattern for much similar behavior throughout the War of Independence. A similar massacre, by dissident troops incorporated in the IDF, occurred later at Al-Dawayima, near Hebron. Other massacres by the IDF are well documented as well. If we Israelis believe that we are a moral society, then we owe it to ourselves to face the past.

The material at this site is not ‘Arab propaganda.’ It was researched and written by Zionists who are concerned about the moral image of our state. We cannot bring back the dead. We can tell the truth, offer our sincere apologies, and learn the lesson of Deir Yassin and teach it to our children.

<snip>

I find people who live in Canada, in the U.S. and elsewhere insist that I am an anti-Zionist, or try to "educate" me regarding the background of Deir Yassin - the Arab seige of Jerusalem, the ambush of the convoy at Nebi Daniel, the murder of every member of a previous convoy (the "Lamed Heh"). All of these are part of the folklore of Palestine and Israel on which I was raised. The Jewish community of Palestine had a right to defend itself in the most effective way possible. But that is no excuse for what happened at Deir Yassin or, sadly, in some other instances in the War of Independence. These acts hindered the defence rather than helping it. Even if we can understand the emotions of some of the attackers - we cannot excuse terror and murder of civilians or justify it in any way, just as I believe it is wrong to justify Palestinian terror on the basis of wrongs done by the Israeli government.

I have equally been reviled by anti-Zionists for not concluding that all of Israeli Jews are war criminals or worse, and that Deir Yassin is representative of all of the glorious history of the return of the Jews to Israel. To those who think that the only way to achieve peace is by destroying us, I must respectfully submit that that approach has been tried and found wanting.

Many of my fellow Zionists do not seem to realize the genuine hurt and anger caused by the massacre in Deir Yassin, nor do they understand how this awful incident, and others that should never have happened, stand like a wall between us and our neighbors. The Deir Yassin massacre is also used by anti-Zionists as a tool in a propaganda war. I think that is detestable - as detestable certainly, as the use of terror victims and the grief of their families by the Zionist right. If we are to make peace, then there is much that both sides will need to admit, much to forgive, and perhaps much to forget.

Ami Isseroff May, 1999. (updated, February 2000)

http://www.ariga.com/peacewatch/dy/

www.ariga.com/

And while this conversation is not about Deir Yassin but about facing the damn truth and dealing with it so we can all get on to the business of peace, I wish you would read books and frequent web-sites like www.ariga.com because the spirit of truth, taking responsability, is sorely needed so that Israel and Palestine can get on to the business of peace and healing and is a spirit that wouldn't hurt any of us- unless of course you're ok with them spending their lives scrapping the gristle of each others' children off of blood-soaked land that has not 1/10th of the value of a single human life!

Read between the lines here Herschel.

The Zionist Organization of America versus the Truth
Review of "The Saga of Deir Yassin"
Ami Isseroff

"The Saga of Deir Yassin" focuses on the study denying the Deir Yassin massacre issued in May 1998 by the Zionist Organization of America. This embarrassing and unhappy subject is dear to my heart as most of you know (see: http://www.ariga.com/peacewatch/dy).

In this new book, Dan McGowan and Matthew Hogan dissect the evidence and show that any fair observer would have to conclude that there was a massacre, as indicated by the large proportion of civilian casualties among villagers, lack of casualties among attackers and many other indications. They present their case dispassionately, without most of the rhetoric that often accompanies this issue, and without trying to make the case of Deir Yassin into a moral condemnation of Zionism.

Two recommendations: 1. Read the book. 2. If you are an American Zionist, help repudiate the ZOA, an organization that claims to represent Zionism, but is actually an embarrassment.

The Saga of Deir Yassin: Massacre, Revisionism and Reality Deir Yassin Remembered, 4078 Scandling Center, Geneva N.Y. U.S.A.
http://www.deiryassin.org/sagareview001.html

[Darranar]

170. The above article...

about the shooting of children only shows that the IDF views children over twelve as adults. That is, of course, ridiculous, but all it means is that they are treated like Palestinian adults. Of course, looking at the way Palestinian adults are treated, it doesn't matter all that much.

That policy really should change. At the very least, the adult age should be raised to 16, which I believe was the age of the youngest suicide bomber, or something along those lines.

It is atrocious the way Israel treats Palestinian civilians, and it is atrocious what extremist Jewish terrorists did at Deir Yassin.

[Tinoire]

173. Yes

but it is a direct answer to herschel's claim that The accidental shooting of a civilian is not terrorism. If it were deliberate, it would be without the direction and consent of the IDF. It would be a criminal act.

It is not accidental. It is terrorism because it brings terror. And it is deliberate because it is with the consent of the IDF.

I am pleading with the universe to open people's eyes so they stop excusing whatever 'their' side is doing.

There should be no sides in this conflict. I'll daresay that anyone who takes sides is only hurting the peace process and that applies to me as well, regardless of how I feel the Palestinians have been gravely wronged, I have no right to take a side. No right to push some of the "pro-Israeli" posters in this debate so far against the opposite side of the wall that they have little psychological choice other than to defend, to even excuse, what is being done in their name even if they don't agree with it.

I apologize to all my "pro-Israeli" fellow posters (I HATE that limiting term in F/A) for my sometime insensitivity to your pain and anguish over this situation because I know that most of you are good people who are just as horrified and anguished as those of us who are "pro-Palestinian". I would not mind your PMs telling me "Gee Tinoire, that was an absolutely insensitive comment or post because...". That way, maybe we could all learn from each other?

Maybe just maybe we could accept that we all really do want the same thing and work together doing what we can to get there?

Peace. Shalom. Salaam.

[Darranar]

174. I can accept that...

I don't see anything particularly wrong about taking sides, as long as one recognizes the actions done by both sides and understands both points of view. In other words, I don't care if someone is mostly center but tilted towards one side or the other. Its the extremists on both sides that I can't abide.

[Wonder]

76. but you don't link it to the torments it is responsible for having

inflicted upon the whole of the people. You can follow along the history of Jewish resistance and understand why israel made its every move however good, however bad, however beautiful, however ugly. Yet you can not take those same rationales and apply them to the Palestinians. Your capacity to really see this and feel this in the shoes of the Israeli and the Jews is admirable. Yet you can not seem to walk round in Palestinian shoes, if you could even bring yourself to put them on.

Perhaps for the exercise to succeed you would have to pretend the Palestinians were native American, or South African, or Afro American, perhaps even Jewish.

Resistance against persecution is resistance against persecution. The struggle for ones independence is the struggle for ones independence. It is not creed, gender, or race specific.

It's a blindspot you exhibit. And it is an acute deficit from the human and psychological perspective. I guess one can either do this or not. It is not something perhaps that can be taught or learned.

I read in tikkun sometimes and find myself in awe of how difficult the needed empathy is to come by.

It is almost wasted time to even attempt to discuss this on forum. You either grasp the exercise or you don't. You either acknowledge the parallels or you don't. You either understand that the Palestinian cause and struggle for human and cultural dignity is as worthy as the Jewish struggle for human and cultural dignity or you don't. IF you can understand the use of all militant Israel tactic, you should be able to understand the use of militant Palestinian tactic. Should it stop. Yes. Would non-violence be a better way to go? Yes. Did the zionist movement practice non-violence at the height of its struggle? No. Shall we encourage the violence? No. Condone it? No.

One problem. Without Israeli attonement for the sins they have committed onto the Palestinians, the genuine understanding that they must be accountable and bear if not even more than at least equal reponsibility... this aspect of the debate will go round and round... but as it does... the death of innocent Palestinian life so outnumbers that of the Israeli civilians... it is almost a no contest under the god that watches us all not the god that divides us. Israeli violence begets more violence and this in and of itself is a calculated strategy that Israeli leaders have employeed time and time again.

YOu don't see this. Others do. RW likud can censor and suppress and rewrite and edit out all they like. They do not fool all.

And as Jim Sagel keeps reminding us... The whole lousy deception is nuthin' but shit in the face of humanity and does as much harm to the Jewish cause as to the Palestinian Cause. Peace is in thehands of Israel and the US brokers they defy. And they both take a pass. They are the controlling factors here and the controlling factor wants conquest not peace and that conquest will be a travesty. And that is all I hope to ever again say on the subject of whether I justify Palestinian Terrorism.

While some can not make the distinction, as I understand the Jewish struggle, I understand the Palestinian struggle. That is my answer to your question, in full understanding that as usual it will go over the heads of some.

[Darranar]

78. I understand the plight of the Palestinians...

On this forum, the average opinion is more pro-Palestinian than in the US. Because of the fact that many posters attack Israel in stronger terms than I feel that they should, i respond. Because of that tilt mentioned above, I could well seem to be far more pro-Israel than I really am by people who, like you, are more pro-Palestinian than I am.

I try to find empathy with the Palestinian people. In some areas I succeed. In others I don't.

[Aidoneus]

81. he's not the kind of person you're speaking of

a couple others here fit the bill in spades, but I've found Darranar to be a bit more fair about it.

[Wonder]

82. Yes I know Aidoneus. I wasn't speaking in anger but human

compassion. Let my use of you ring out more in the general and generic sense rather than it be taken specific to Darranar.

[Wonder]

67. You miss the parallels completely don't you?

Why is that do you think. The Parallels are quite obvious! If all just brushed aside Jewish persecution as a no thing...with no sympathy for the Jewish Cause and the merit of its resistance, would there even by a State of Israel?

[Darranar]

69. Who do I do that to?

I have brushed aside the Palestinian cause as nothing? Since when?
Please quit your unfounded accusations.

[Herschel]

66. Because they are murderers

And their actions should not be referred to as resistance.

[Darranar]

74. Agreed completely, my friend

[Herschel]

75. Perhaps we were expected

to assign a noble cause to their butchering?

[Wonder]

84. Can you Apply a noble cause

to the butchering at the hands of the Israeli struggle?

[Herschel]

113. There is no butchering as you say

by the IDF.

[Wonder]

165. Keep telling yourself that!

One day even you might get people to believe it's true.

[Wonder]

80. .....

:hi:

[Wonder]

79. Lost cause #1

but I haven't forgotten your question in the other thread about how arafat sold the Palestinian Cause down the river...another heartbreaking factor here. I am looking for something the will best address it.

[Ruminator]

131. Higher Standard

You seem to hold Israel to a much higher standard than the Palestinians. You ask us not to focus on their terrorism, but you seem to think that Israel is terrible because it doesn't focus enough on "peacefull diplomacy". And do you think that Peacefull diplomacy would actually have worked on Arafat?

[Darranar]

132. Well...

the difference is, Ruminator, that Israel is a state. The state-sponsored path to peace is certainly not peaceful diplomacy in this case.

The militant groups within the Palestinians certainly have no wish to have peaceful diplomacy with the Israelis. However, Mahmoud Abbas, despite his lack of power, does, and he does have support from quite a few Palestinians. He would have support from more if Sharon was more inclined towards peace.

[Wonder]

166. Arafat Became an Autocratic Pawn

He was not the best negotiator nor Clinton a real broker for the Palestinian cause. And that worked very well into the Israeli Agenda, never really intending to relinquish much in the way of territory or contro. Oslo let go of nothing. It just attempted to great a Palestinian Police force for Israeli Security. None of the hard issues were address, and Arafat bent over, concerned it seems more with his own power. If Israel had allowed perhaps other candidates to run, well than Israel would have risked losing its control over its annexation. Even the NGO's were funded based on the condition that the supported the oslo process. Dissidents were jailed outright.

However, your point is well taken in terms to the chaos in organization from the palestinian Side. Again Apartheid suppression does take its toll on the cultural identity of the people it punishes, humiliates, starves, and torments. Creating disunity is general the result of such oppression, if not one of its goals.

[Darranar]

167. Wonder...

I remember reading somewhere that when the Israelis seiged Arafat's headquarters in Ramallah, they found documents proving that he had cooperated with terrorists. I am wondering if that is simply untrue. Do you know anything about that?

[Wonder]

176. there are so many conflicts on that Darranar

even various articles in haaretz suggest Arafat is not affiliated with the terrorism... Uri Avnery has discreditted the affiliations as false.

One could think they found those documents like the US found WMD in Iraq. You just have to know "the authors" of any given source. I stress the authors rather than the sites necessarily, because sometimes perfectly factual information regarding Israel is also included on what are called hate sites, if you don't access the site from it's home page you may not know this... But if what is pulled from the site is a study or an article that they just are using it matters not if it on a hate site. People might consider some RW pro Israel sites hate sites in there own right.

As for the documents in Ramallah could be, but again those affliation have been disputed in more than one journal and by more than one Israel journalist. Israel does have its own credibility problem. And again that word terrorism can be a revolving door which interplays with resistance as well as defensive or retaliatory measures.

[Darranar]

177. I expected something along those lines...

Arafat is hardly a kind and generous "president," but it seems that there is still controversy, like on everything in this issue, about whether or not he supports/ignores terrorism.

[Wonder]

187. Arafat was a Refugee

He was in Lebanon during the 1982 invasion. He is not a democratic leader per se. Again Resistance reverts to terrorism the war on terorrism takes the whole story out of context.

[Ruminator]

124. I Agree Partly

The humanitarian situation of the palestinians is terrible, but that doesn't make it right for the Palestinian terrorists to lash out at Israeli civilians. I agree though that for the majority of the terrorism to cease the humanitarian conditions of the Palestinians must improve.

[Darranar]

125. Agreed completely...

Another reasonable person on this forum! Excellent!

[Ruminator]

134. Thank You

I appreciate it.
:toast:

[Tinoire]

181. Welcome to DU Ruminator!

:toast:

It's a pleasure to welcome someone who can see and considers both sides!

[Gimel]

157. Symptoms

That view is held by some, but in fact, it is unjustified and unjustifiable by history.

:shrug:

[Wonder]

22. true if not for the terror of Irgun, Haganah the sabatoge of groups like

Palmah known in Hebrew as Mista'aravim, and instead the early Zionists would have come to the land in the spirit of inter-group sympathy rather than with the idea of militant dominance and transfer, than perhaps the conflict could have been sidestepped altogther. Perhaps if leaders the likes of Ben Gurion, Netanyahu, Barak, and Sharon had not carried forth policies of further expansion and continued purging the land of Palestinians by deceptive means and government sponsored Israeli "sacred" terrorism and "revenge" ... well than perhaps the conflict might have found already its resolution.

need I go on?

[the_sam]

60. Which is why 700,000 were expelled in 1948

Right?

[Wonder]

61. I shake my head and

:eyes:

[Wonder]

20. Israeli Democracy is Another Misnomer

They are an Apartheid State through and through, complete with which statutes institutionalizing discrimination against non-Jews, especially the Palestinians.

[Darranar]

21. Not true...

Israeli Arabs can vote. So can Israeli Jews. That makes Israel a democracy, racist or not.

[StandWatie]

23. The Palestinians can't vote

and either Israel should afford them citizenship or it should have left thirty years ago.

Israel inside it's de facto borders IS an apartheid state.

[Wonder]

24. you beat me in!

:hi:

[Darranar]

27. Had the Israelis left thirty years ago...

The Jordanians would have taken over. And we all know how kind the Jordanian government is to the Palestinians, don't we...

[mike_c]

38. well, then we'd be kicking Jordan around...

...but might have beens aren't worth much. It's the Israelis who are oppressing the Palestinians. Today the Knesset voted to withold Israeli citizenship from Palestinians married to Israelis. That's citizenship and the rights of citizenship tendered on the basis of race. That's apartheid, and it smells just as ugly in Israel as it did in South Africa.

[Darranar]

39. Um...

I am saying that Israeli withdrawal so early would have accomplished nothing. That is all.

[Wonder]

44. But the rationales do abound

what would be the reason for entertaining this hypothetical, is it another way to let Israel off the hook?

[Darranar]

59. No...

My point is that those that criticize the Israeli occupation should remember that there was good reason for it for at least half a dozen years.

[Wonder]

86. Please explain

I am curious perhaps there is part of the Israeli perspective I haven't considered or a piece of the puzzle I am missing. Before I grasped the significance of the Jewish resistance I was truly at a loss.

[Darranar]

88. Had the Israelis withdrawn completely immediately after the 1967 war...

the Jordanians would have retaken the West Bank. There would be no peace treaty and no end to the desecration of holy sites there. The area would simply be a part of Jordan and the mistreatment of the palestinians by the Jordanians would have continued. The situation would not have improved.

The settlements certainly should never have happened, though, and the Israelis should have given the Palestinians a large amount of autonomy over their land.

[Wonder]

91. I should dedicate some reading time to the Jordanian

butchery... thanks!

[StandWatie]

108. you will have one hell of a time

this particular little side line is just Israeli mythology, it's based on a theme of "everyone hates the Palestinians not just us".

[Darranar]

118. Oh, come on...

do you deny that Palestinains were, and still are, mistreated by the Jordanian government?

[StandWatie]

129. yes

I certainly do

[Wonder]

185. dizzying isn't it?

and then you finally think you've unspun it and you get on these forums and whammo...you spins the wheel all round round with the Palestinian syrian files and whatever else.

Are there no jordanian scholars either? :eyes:.

At least with the IP... the Israel left is very helpful as too are the revisionists, even though I tend to agree with Said sometimes in regard to their final conclusions. Of course one can understand to explain the reasonings behind all the Israeli mayhem specially that mayhem surrounding al Nakba.

What about british authors or american authors? If there really are no Jordanian scholars or historians :eyes: or are they all made in Israel?

[Cassandra]

48. That wouldn't have been worth much to you...

but Palestinians have been denied full citizenship, or recognition as an independent state, in every other Arab country they've lived in. It would smell just as ugly as in South Africa, but if it's only other Arabs doing it instead of Israelis, I doubt you'd give it much thought. The world had plenty of opportunities to kick Jordan around on this issue, and no one bothered to do so. If Palestinian disenfranchisement is only important when it's done for apparently (to you) racist reasons, then isn't concern about it racist, as well.

[StandWatie]

53. I assume you are talking about black september

I always find it amusing that the Jordanian army beating down a revolt by the PLO militia should recieve such dark condemnation, apparently that's only the IDF's job alone.

What exactly should Jordan have done?

[Darranar]

62. Are you unaware...

that the Jordanian government still does mistreat the palestinians, and has for a long time?

[StandWatie]

77. like what?

Not paying to resettle the descendents of Israel's Original Sin?

[Gimel]

46. PA is elected

"In January 1996 Arafat was elected the first president of the Palestinian Council governing the West Bank and Gaza Strip"
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/WorldNewsTonight/profile_arafat.html

Since January of 1996, the Palestinians have elected a president and council members. It is a separate, self-governing area.

http://www.jmcc.org/research/special/council2.html
Welcome to democracy.

[StandWatie]

54. yeah, only a quarter century later

when Israel started to realize no one was impressed with the "village council" sort of approaches they made a statelet with no power over it's own borders or immigration, no military and no authority to do much of anything accept take over the civil administration so Israel didn't have to.

[Gimel]

160. Easy to criticize

Israel can't be held responsible for the Palestinians as a people. They had a choice, they could have gone to Jordan. They preferred to act like refugees and some like terrorists. Israel had no resources, as the people that were rufugees from European atrocities or Moslem counties came without much in the way of personal property, and to a pretty harsh existence.

[Wonder]

94. And what of the Israeli Palestinian Liaison Committee

which gave Israel veto-power over what candidates should run and the electoril process?

[Gimel]

156. The PA is not Israel.

Do the citizens of Maine have the right to vote for the government of New York?

[Wonder]

162. I miss your point

I wasn't suggesting PA should vote in Israel, however even their since they are annexed rather than having been granted statehood, how interesting it suits the debate. PA has no vote in terms of israeli policies, much of which effects the OT's, yet Israel has veto-power over PA election.

No Israeli's didn't vote in the Palestinian Election, but Israel controlled the nomination process via final say veto.

[Cassandra]

49. Tom Delay is the Majority Whip

I guess the pretense of democracy was too stressful on big USA. I hope we are never held up for blame and accusations of racism for our inability to control what the far right is doing to our country. We always take comfort in the phrase "don't blame me, I didn't vote for him". Are any Israelis allowed to use that defense around you or is the entire body politic to blame?

[newyorican]

50. Tom Delay is bad,

but he is not (by himself) comparable to Aparthied laws, annexation of foreign soil and ethnic cleansing. I hope that's not what you were driving at.

As to who voted for him, that's a matter for Sugarland Texas and environs.

BTW, Tom Delay is the Majority Leader, not the whip.

BTW Part 2, pointing fingers elsewhere does not address the point or the article. It is, however, tantamount to pleading "no contest" to the charges levied.

[Cassandra]

51. If it were only him...

but he is not alone. And, anyway, we already did the " Aparthied laws, annexation of foreign soil and ethnic cleansing. "

"As to who voted for him, that's a matter for Sugarland Texas and environs. "
Would you want someone from another country to blame you, anyway?

"BTW, Tom Delay is the Majority Leader, not the whip."
Thanks, although doesn't Hastert count as majority leader? (semantics-wise, not power-wise)

"BTW Part 2, pointing fingers elsewhere does not address the point or the article. It is, however, tantamount to pleading "no contest" to the charges levied."
I'm always looking for a sense of proportion. You're tarring all of Israel with the statements of the far right. I was pointing out that you wouldn't want someone to do that to you and you are very careful not to attribute Arafat's extremism to all of the Palestinian population.

[bemildred]

52. The USA is still a racist state,

and was more so within my memory, segregation it was called,
and it has always had its Tom DeLays and Strom Thurmonds,
and it's a REALLY long list, so I won't go on,
but some progress has been made, haltingly, in the last
forty years.

None of that makes it OK, here or anywhere else.

(It is so cool to be able to edit title lines.)

[Cassandra]

55. I never think it's OK

I just wonder when others question Israel's democracy and laws when we have a lot of problems managing our own. Israel was founded as a Jewish state. If you have a problem with that, then the Arab states that are militantly Muslim deserve the same condemnation, even though they don't pretend to be democracies. A democracy that is also a Jewish state may not be a tenable position forever, but it would be nice if they weren't expected to resolve that perfectly when their neighbors get a free pass for being total creeps.

[newyorican]

57. Name one neighbor...

currently annexing foreign soil, passing Apartheid/racist laws and has their arm in the US pocket up to the elbow? (bringing culpability to my doorstep, thank you very much)

I'll criticize them in a heartbeat.

[bemildred]

89. I did not mean to imply that you did (think its OK).

Sorry if I was not clear.

I am not religious, and I do not relate to religious states of any
sort, but I don't mind as long as my autonomy is respected.

I agree that the polarization of the dialog is part of the problem.

I'm not that big on democracy as such, the formal process, I tend
to think self-determination of peoples is what matters, if they
want democracy, they can work it out when they are ready, but
there is always trouble when you have one group ruling another.

I do not have a problem with a Jewish state, more or less where the
current one resides, if that is what the Jewish people want, and
they have worked things out properly with the indigenous peoples.
There is still some work to be done in that last regard, and it
cannot all be blamed on the Arabs, although they can certainly take
some share of it. It is not like either side has a hammerlock on
virtue.

[Darranar]

90. Agreed completely, bemildred

As usual, your reason and rejection of extremism builds my respect for you.

[Tinoire]

182. Hi Cassandra

I see you upstairs addressing our own internal problems and understand totally where you're coming from.

I can't speak for everyone but I can tell you that when it really dawned on me how my tax dollars were being used against the Palestinians, I became outraged. I would have bee ouraged about the conflit regardless but the fact that my tax-dollars are going there made it personal. The fact that AIPAP and ZOA influence internal US politics to Israel's advantage thus acerbating the conflict enrages me. The games we saw with McKinney and Hilliard were a particular outrage to the Black Community, of which I am a member, which saw AIPAC and Republicans gang together to oust the person we wanted representing us were discouraging and outrageous.

I am working as hard to expose Bush as I am to expose Sharon. Both are leading the world to a catastrophe.

All that said, I do understand your point and the insensitive manner in which we often push people like you against a wall. A apologize for that and hope you understand that most of us aren't picking on Israel. We're picking on injustice. Here, there, and everywhere.

Peace

[Wonder]

95. If the plan is to execute transfer

with perhaps some kind of allegiance to the Israeli flag of America, I speak in the hypothetical, for those that remain with the consolation prize being promised state at some unknown time in the future when the palestinians proof to Likud it is worthy and mature enough and Sharon succeeds along those line; violence will return Israel will move perhaps into a jim crow era wherein than civil rights will be the issue. I am grasping at mirages.

I mean really I can not imagine what is in store. Clearly it is agrevated ethnic cleansing and transfer. I can not imagine they are going to get Abbas to buckle. It seems he might just intend to uphold the cause. I just wish I saw the manifestation of a move toward non-violent resistance. It would expose the truth as ghandi exposed in India.

Are the Jordanians in line with this Elon plan. When it first came up I don't recall they were? And this is not all Jordans doing or as StandWatie said Jordan can not be held responsible for Israel's original sin. This is ... ludicrously menacing to any reasonable mind.

[newyorican]

56. The article is *not*about Tom Delay

Would you want someone from another country to blame you, anyway?

Blame me for what? Speaking out against Tom Delay as most of us here have at some point? Don't you think most normal Americans are ashamed of Tom Delay? I do. I just don't know what Tom Delay has to do with an article titled, "Israeli Ruling Party Incites for Expulsion of Palestinians". Maybe you could connect the dots for me?

Thanks, although doesn't Hastert count as majority leader? (semantics-wise, not power-wise)

No, Hastert counts as the Speaker of the House, as in its-his-title-wise. I must admit I have no idea where you are going with this line of discussion.

I'm always looking for a sense of proportion.

Let me hazard a guess here, you would like me to criticize Tom Delay, American History and (insert your fav) to *your* satifaction, before uttering a single criticism about Israel in response to an article titled, "Israeli Ruling Party Incites for Expulsion of Palestinians". Is that the proportion you are looking for?

You're tarring all of Israel with the statements of the far right.

No, sorry if you see it that way. I think the far right tars all of Israel with it statements. The fact that the Israeli electorate has lurched toward the far right doesn't help either.

I was pointing out that you wouldn't want someone to do that to you and you are very careful not to attribute Arafat's extremism to all of the Palestinian population.

If the article were titled, "Newyorican Incites for Expulsion of Palestinians from Jerusalem" I would address it. I would not want to discuss Tom Delay, American History or anything else.

[Ruminator]

107. The Majority of Israelis

Some radical Israelis want palestinian ethnicleansing. There are radicals in almost every society, and they can not and do not portray the views of the majority of people in that society. There are also some Palestinians who believe in ethnicleansing of Jews. Also, just because the Moledet party is part of Sharon's coalition doesn't mean he agrees with what they think.

[Darranar]

109. Though I agree, Ruminator...

there remains a problem, which is that the Israeli government's policies seem like an attempt at ethnic cleansing-or near so. Bulldozing homes, for instance, to make way for settlements, and building a huge wall in the middle of the Palestinian's land.

[newyorican]

110. Unfortunately

Almost half of Israelis want to place Palestinians on rail cars and dump them in Jordan. Everytime those stats are printed it comes with a disclaimer, that the percentage is probably higher in reality.

[Darranar]

114. LOL!

Where did you get that from, newyorican? Hamas.org?

[Ruminator]

117. Reminds me

Hamas.com reminds me of my friends source for information, tzahal.com!!!!

[Darranar]

120. Well...

hamas.com doesn't exist, as far as I know. I just invented it for the purpose of the post.

On Eidt: Oops! It does exist. But I think anyone who visits it should know taht it wasn't quite what I meant.

[newyorican]

127. Almost 1/2 of Israelis support transfer

do you dispute this?

[Darranar]

130. Yes

n/t

[newyorican]

133. Links

Such proposals are gaining a growing foothold among right-wing supporters. Just last week a public opinion poll conducted by the Yaffe Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University found that 46 percent of Jews in Israel support the transfer of the Arabs in the territories. Furthermore 31 percent of the Jewish population also favors the transfer of Israeli Arabs, 60 percent of those polled said they supported encouraging Arabs to emigrate from Israel, and 80 percent said they objected to the inclusion of Israeli Arabs or their representatives in the decision-making process of crucial issues such as setting Israel's borders.

http://www.quotes2u.com/archives/032102.htm

Some 46 percent of Israel's Jewish citizens favor transferring Palestinians out of the territories, while 31 percent favor transferring Israeli Arabs out of the country, according to the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies' annual national security public opinion poll.

In 1991, 38 percent of Israel's Jewish population was in favor of transferring the Palestinians out of the territories while 24 percent supported transferring Israeli Arabs.

When the question of transfer was posed in a more roundabout way, 60 percent of respondents said that they were in favor of encouraging Israeli Arabs to leave the country. The results of the survey also reveal that 24 percent of Israel's Jewish citizens believe that Israeli Arabs are not loyal to the state, compared to 38 percent who think the Arabs were loyal to the state at the beginning of the intifada.

http://www.tau.ac.il/jcss/meinfoc1006.htm

A just-released Jaffe Center poll shows that some 46 percent of Israel's Jewish citizens favor transferring Palestinians out of the territories, while 31 percent favor transferring Israeli Arabs out of the country.

http://www.ajcongress.org/mideast/ii236.htm

*****

I will await your chagrined retraction.

[Darranar]

135. Perhaps I'm in denial...

but polls have little accuracy.

Remember Dewey vs. Truman? Using your reasoning, dewey should have crushed Truman. We both know what really happened.

[newyorican]

136. It's hard to face...

I understand, cognitive dissonance can be hard to shake.

[Darranar]

137. Did you know that there are polls taken by some that say...

that 70% or more Palestinians support suicide bombings? Sorry, I don't trust either one.

[newyorican]

138. It's *very* hard to face

as we can all see.

[Darranar]

139. Can we get a real response, now?

Instead of wrangling about how you think I'm in denial?

[StandWatie]

141. I believe both polls

I also have a very low opinion of humanity in general :shrug:

[newyorican]

152. Bingo

Both numbers are an accurate snapshot. The Poll is just over a year old, so I have no idea how bad things have gotten since. I say that because opinions have been on a downward spiral for some time, and that has not abated in the last 14 months.

[Tinoire]

180. And I disbelieve both polls

I also have a very low opinion of humanity in general :shrug:

but paradoxically, I have great faith in humaity's collective heart.

Polls are commissioned, manipulated and then exploited.

Isn't it so nice to live in a country where George Bush has a 61% approval rating? We don't believe that poll for a minute. Why believe either of these politically expedient polls? :shrug:

[newyorican]

183. If the poll was questionable

it would have been long debunked by the Hasbara crowd. It hasn't. Neither statistic is desirable, but closing ones eyes won't make it go away.

[Tinoire]

188. But that works both ways

You've seen, in our country, how dishonestly the polls are often taken, how you're often presented with leading and very limited questions, or how they're given to one particular group that will give them only the answers they're looking for.

If you want a Poll that says George Bush has a 90% approval rating, I can get you one in a day just by visiting 3 SUV dealer-ships. If you want one that says he's got a 15% approval rating, I'll stand outside of the organic food stores. You know how that works.

And what's to stop people from outright making up or pumping up the numbers of a poll.

Polls have become meaningless. What is unfortunate is that there is so much deliberate denial and head-burying going on in this forum that people have to back up every allegation with a poll or an internet link - slowing down all discussion by making people dig around for links and articles. THANK GOD FOR GOOGLE in that case!

Anyway, I hate damn polls. The Army was particularly good at whipping out polls to prove that soldiers loved their low-pay and waking up at 4:30 am to go run. I mean you wouldn't believe the garbage I've seen "proven" by polls from the lowest levels straight up to the top.

All that said, there's nothing to prove both those polls aren't correct either. It's just that the probability is there and shouldn't be discounted otherwise we all set ourselves up for eternal manipulation.

Peace

[Darranar]

184. Exactly, Tinoire

Once again we find ourselves in complete agreement.

[newyorican]

142. I am still awaiting

a realistic response to the information I have laid out. It's not new by any standard and has been hashed and re-hashed endlessly in this forum. Numerous threads were started on how many Palestinians support suicide attacks in DU1. Now if this thread were about Palestinian suicide attacks, I might feel a response is required. But the thread is about "Israeli Ruling Party Incites for Expulsion of Palestinians". You can try to change the subject, but I won't cooperate in the deflection.

The same polls have been used by the members of this forum for over a year. Just because the poll reveals uncomfortable opinions, is not sufficient reason to naysay the poll. To do so is the essence of cognitive dissonce.

[Darranar]

144. POLLS CAN"T BE TRUSTED!!!!

HOW MANY REPLIES DO I HAVE TO POST FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?

[newyorican]

146. I understand

The polls can't be trusted if the outcome make Israel look bad. Got it.

[Darranar]

147. NO!

Polls can't be trusted regardless of the outcome. Really, now...

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Darranar]

145. See post #144...

that is, if you aren't in denial yourself.

[newyorican]

149. Projection is also a well-known defense mechanism

Listen, I made a statement which you challenged. I provided proof in the form of documentation to back up my words. All the pathetic mewling in the world will not change the facts I brought to your attention.

If they are wrong provide proof or zip it.

[Darranar]

151. Polls are inaccurate...

I would think that you would understand that. I guess not.

[newyorican]

153. Got proof?

If this poll is not accurate, there should be documented rebuttals somewhere. I have not seen one in the 12 months or so this same poll has been used in this forum as background info.

A generic disclaimer against all polls just won't do in this case.

[drdon326]

148. LOL...

Seem a little tense there newyorican....

maybe your just in denial....these things happen

signed, your favorite INFIDEL.

[newyorican]

150. See Post #149

...

[newyorican]

175. Some early threads on this from DU1

Sharon would deny citizenship to children with Palestinian parent

Knesset forbids citizenship to Palestinians who marry Israelis

I hope everyone stayed consistent, cause there *is* a record...

[Tinoire]

189. There's definitely truth in those polls

we only need our own eyes and intelligence to tell us that! Too much truth but I'm just not convinced it's the absolute truth. That's all and you're right, there IS a record and no amount of polls should belie any record. I just prefer to stick to the records.

You should see all the polls they're gonna throw out at DU over the next few months to "prove" that so & so isn't electable or that so & so is in the lead, or most trusted, or seen as most experienced.

We're going to have to follow our better instincts with those too...

That's my only point. And usually I agree with your posts so this is really just quibbling because I hate the F/A spirit that everything must be linked to a poll, an article or that threads must be based on recent articles etc... I see all that as stifling discussion no matter that I understand the reasoning.

Peace