Racial discrimination - a tool of occupation

[mudplanet]

"Jub Al-Dib looks like a ghost town; no roads, no school but plenty of children, and run-down or abandoned homes.

In its latest report, Human Rights Watch says this village is living proof of a deliberate Israeli policy of racial discrimination against Palestinians that has had a devastating effect on this and other communities. The organization says Israel employs a two-tier system, which encourages and funds the building and infrastructure of Israeli settlements that enjoy all amenities while adjacent Palestinian communities are denied the right to any of those very services. So settlements grow, while these communities dwindle.

These Palestinian communities are under full Israeli control or Area C. Area C makes up over 60 per cent of the occupied West Bank with an estimated dwindling Palestinian population of 150,000."

Read the rest at http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2010/12/20/racial-discrimination-tool-occupation

[ProgressiveProfessor]

1. Another group that does not understand the concept of race correctly

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oberliner]

3. The closing sentence of the article/blog post in the OP is the most preposterous

To wit:

"The world long ago discarded spurious arguments to justify treating one group of people differently from another merely because of their race, ethnicity, or national origin," said Human Rights Watch.

Israel now stands out as a sole violator of this universal principle.

<end of excerpt>

Sole violator? Really?

Human Rights Watch, the organization that the author quotes in the previous sentence, points out numerous cases of discrimination based on race, ethnicity, and national original in countries around the world on its web site.

Has the author not read any of those reports?

Nowhere else in the world are people treated differently based on their race, ethnicity, or national origin?

Can the author actually believe this?

Can the readers of Al Jazeera? Or those reading it here at DU?

[mudplanet]

4. You're right.. Israel isn't the only violater of the principle of equal treatment

but that doesn't make it any more excusable.

"The Nazi's were racists, too. So why are you picking on the Zionists?"

[shira]

5. Israel isn't racist. Here's a narrative killer for you; Palestinian Arabs living in settlements...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZyEmn4wjnY

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2009/12/28/Jerusalem-approves-Arab-housing-units/UPI-81171262005573

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32702595/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

Why do you think Israel sucks so much at apartheid?

[mudplanet]

7. Why would anyone care why Israel sucks so much at apartheid?

[shira]

8. Because it's not apartheid and Israel isn't anymore racist than any other liberal democracy. n/t

[mudplanet]

12. Really. Please explain.

I can't refute what you say without knowing what you base your assertion on.

If a country is established on the principle that it is for people of a specific religion that implies that it is not for people of a specific religion. I.e., Non-Jews need not apply. That is not a liberal democracy. That's a religious state. It may be operated under democratic principles but the fact that it excludes people within it's borders and the areas it controls, based upon their religion, from participation in the political process means it ain't a democracy.

Please refute this. If I'm wrong I want to know. Are there some facts I'm unaware of?

Israel is in the process of consolidating areas not within it's legal boundaries in violation of international law, through a process of intimidation, violence, starvation, (I can't use the "m" word in this forum but it's employed by Israel) and a host of other acts that violate international law. It keeps much of the non-Jewish populace "separate" from the Jewish populace through the use of concrete barriers, military checkpoints, razor wire, and official state policy. These non-Jews are only allowed in certain areas (the areas with the hospitals, jobs, stores, and schools) with a specific pass and then only after rigorous and demeaning interrogation. If that ain't apartheid, I don't know what is.

Please refute this. If I'm wrong I want to know. Are there some facts I'm unaware of?

You can simply repeat "Israel isn't racist" over and over but it doesn't make it true.

[oberliner]

13. I'd like to refute some of your points if I may

All Israeli citizens regardless of their religion participate in the political process. This includes well over a million non-Jews. In fact, non-Jews make up about a quarter of the population of Israel.

With respect to your other section, not sure what the "m" word is, but there is definitely no starvation happening anywhere as a result of Israeli actions. Further, the separation barriers do not keep non-Jews from Jews but rather Israelis from Palestinians. Many of the Israelis on the Israeli side of the separation barrier are themselves not Jewish as indicated in my first paragraph.

[mudplanet]

16. There are two and half million Palestinians living in the West Bank who

have no say in the policies and laws under which they conduct their daily lives. Until the Israeli military leaves the West Bank it remains, effectively part of Israel. There is a puppet police force operated by the PA but it cannot do anything without Israeli sanction and if it attempt to it is quickly repressed. Additionally, there is a large population of Israeli settlers living in the West Bank and this population is growing so that is is difficult to make an argument that the Israeli government doesn't regard the West Bank as a part of Israel. Otherwise, why would it continue to support continued colonization of the territory? None of these settlements would exist if the Israeli government didn't sanction them officially or unofficially. The government has no problem bulldozing, in short order, a Palestinian or Arab structure it deems "illegitimate." Palestinians must travel on "special" roads to move from town to town and are prohibited from using first class roads that serve the Israeli citizens who live, illegally, in the West Bank.

"Israeli policies in the West Bank harshly discriminate against Palestinian residents, depriving them of basic necessities while providing lavish amenities for Jewish settlements, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. The report identifies discriminatory practices that have no legitimate security or other justification and calls on Israel, in addition to abiding by its international legal obligation to withdraw the settlements, to end these violations of Palestinians' rights." http://www.hrw.org/middle-eastn-africa/israel-and-occupied-territories

It only takes about two minutes with google to find dozens of examples of independent and credible reports of Israel treating Palestinians in the West Bank like sub-humans with no rights. Try it yourself. Google "palestinians west bank conditions human rights"

[shira]

17. The unemployment rate for blacks in the USA is higher than for Palestinians in the West Bank

Obviously this proves the USA is more racist than Israel.

Right?

Unemployment for African Americans is projected to reach a 25-year high this year, according to a study released Thursday by an economic think tank, with the national rate soaring to 17.2 percent and the rates in five states exceeding 20 percent.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/14/AR2010011404085.html

While in the West Bank, the unemployment rate for people 15 years and above is 15.2%.
http://www.pcbs.gov.ps/Portals/_pcbs/PressRelease/LabourForce_2010Q2_E.pdf

Before the 2nd Intifada, it was under 10%.

Seems your US tax dollars should be directed at making the USA a bit less racist, don't you think?

[mudplanet]

21. Yes. Black people being unemployed in the US is exactly like Palestinians

living under apartheid, having no rights, having to use second class roads, and being denied the use of hospitals in emergencies. Exactly like that.

I think what you're suggesting is that I agree to allowing the US to continue to fund Israeli crimes against humanity until there is no racism in the US. I don't think so.

Without US funding the Israeli government would be forced to negotiate in good faith toward the establishment of either a secular government of the entire Palestine/Israel area, or toward the recognition, without conditions, or Palestine. That's my goal.

[shira]

23. Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens. Do you understand that?

Israeli Arabs who label themselves Palestinian Israelis have equal rights under Israeli law.

[martymar64]

66. Can't Israeli Arabs legally marry Israeli Jews?

Don't you have laws against intermarriage?

What kind of liberal democracy has miscegenation laws int his day and age?

[oberliner]

19. I am not questioning that Israelis mistreat Palestinians in the West Bank

If you re-read my post, I did not claim that was not the case - no googling needed.

I don't entirely agree with you with respect to the governing structure of the West Bank. There is a lot more than just a "puppet police force" in place. There is a good deal more self-governance than I think you are giving the Palestinians credit for.

With respect to Area A for example, which is where over half of the Palestinian population of the West Bank lives, there is total Palestinian control and administration.

I do agree with the assessment you cited from HRW which says that Israel ought to withdraw the settlements - though I think this should be done under the auspices of a peace agreement rather than unilaterally as Sharon did when he removed all of the Israeli settlements that used to exist in Gaza.

In any case, if you want to dispute any of the items I presented in my attempts to refute some of your statements in that earlier, I would welcome that discussion.

[mudplanet]

24. US GIs in prison camps during WWII had a form of self-governance

as well. They had a commanding officer (or NCO) and committees in charge of projects.

But they couldn't set their own hours, leave the camp, override the orders of the guards. If they did they be shot.

Palestinians in the West Bank have a form of self-governance. But the PA can't go down to the "special first class road" and tell the guards there that they can't exclude Palestinians from using the road, or that they have to allow people with serious injuries to pass the check point so they can get to the hospital. And they can't enforce a court order to dismantle an illegal settlement because it was built illegally on land that belonged to someone else, and the PA can't evict Israeli's who occupy land that belongs to someone else.

The Palestinians do have some self-governance. But not much.

[oberliner]

33. Were foreign countries recognizing them as an independent state?

You really want to draw a comparison between the Palestinians living in the West Bank and US GI's living in prison camps during WWII?

Seriously?

[mudplanet]

39. As regards self rule, it seems like a valid comparison to me

Internally, and for practical purposes, how is it different?

[oberliner]

52. I cannot believe that you are seriously asking that question

There is no similarity between the West Bank and a World War II prison camp.

Just out of curiosity - have you ever been to Israel or the West Bank?

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oberliner]

64. "Internally, and for practical purposes, how is it different?"

That question.

I would encourage you to visit Ramallah sometime if you'd like to know some of how life there is different from life in a World War II prison camp.

Here are some excerpts from Wiki Travel:

See

The city is one of the most vibrant ones in the West Bank. In Ramallah, a few historic and religious sites are present. However, the downtown streets are a must see during the day, as the city is often really congested. The 'hisbeh' produce market is also a great place to visit, where fresh fruits and vegetables can be found at reasonable prices.

In the old city, several churches and mosques can be found that may be of interest to visitors. The Friends Schools, which are one of the oldest schools in the region, are also a must visit as there is one near the old city, and another in the entrance of the downtown coming from Jerusalem.

During the night, a good number of shops are still open, especially during the summer. A common habit of the citizens of the city is going out for a drink, dinner, or a 'Argila' (flavoured tobacco waterpipe.) The cities various coffee shops, bars, and restaurants are a must see/visit. The nicer ones are often available closer the older city, and on the road going to Betunia, while some good ones can also be found outside the city center.

Work

Ramallah is a vibrant Palestinian business hub, especially as most international agencies and governmental offices are located in the city. However, with the immigration of Palestinians from other cities in the West Bank to Ramallah, there is a highly competitve job market and many Palestinians, especially young men come to the city seeking work.

Major working opportunities in Ramallah include information technology, pharmaceuticals, development cooperation, and the public sector. Restaurant and coffee shop jobs are also available, mainly during the summer. Agricultural jobs are minimal in the city, but a few can be sought in neighboring villages.

Eat

Eating should be no problem in Ramallah, regardless of the budget of visitors. There are a huge number of falafel and shawerma places on all of the main streets.

One good place to visit is the "Nazareth Restaurant" at the end of the main street, which is popular for locals and serves really great (but hummousey) falafel.

The Arabic variety of ice-cream in many places in Ramallah is worth trying - a very different and more gooey and sticky version of what is available in the west. Regular ice cream can be found everywhere also. Try "Rukab's" and "Baladna" ice cream shops on the main street.

You can also have a delicious dish of fresh fish or other seafood dishes at "Fish and Chips" resturanet located in the old city. You can choose your favourite fresh fish from Palestine Fishery and ask the chef to prepare that fish for you in the way you like. They also prepare very delicious fish sandwiches at resonable prices.

For those who want more American/Western food, there is a "Checkers" fast-food joint in the mini-mall and on the main street. There is also "Chicago Cheese Steak" on Manara Square. Try "Tomasso's" pizza for a nice pizza dine-in or take-out.

Drink

Although predominately Muslim, Ramallah is still a Christian town, hence Ramallah's large restaurants usually serve alcohol. Expect a selection of imported beers (Heineken, Corona, etc.), spirits, and perhaps red or white wine. Do not display public intoxication, as at best, it is rude and inconsiderate to your Muslim hosts. At worst, it could be dangerous.

Popular local places to get served alcohol are Zan's, Zryiab, Stones, Angelo's, and Sangria's. They all serve food as well and the local Palestinian beer "Taybeh" (which can challenge most European beers). For more robust beer lovers, Taybeh also comes in a delightfully rich tasting dark version although this isn't as widely sold as the lighter ale.

[shira]

15. Israel gives preference to Jews for citizenship, but given the world's history against Jews...

...and the way they closed their doors to Jews who sought escape from Hitler's ovens, they and you lack any moral standing to complain about it. The fact is ANY non-Jew can apply for citizenship to Israel just as in any other liberal democracy. People from a country in a state of war against Israel cannot apply. Do you understand that?

Israel isn't starving anyone, nor is its occupation illegal under International Law. Also that "non-Jewish populace" they keep separate through the use of concrete barriers, checkpoints, etc... are of another nationality that has been in a state of war with Israel since 1948. Of course, the checkpoints, barriers, etc.. did not exist prior to the 2nd Intifada and are solely a product of that act of war from Palestinian leadership. Keeping an enemy state from cross-border attacks is not apartheid in any sense.

[mudplanet]

18. I'm not "the world" and my primary (but not only) objection to their racism is that

I don't want to pay for it with my tax dollars. That would make me a racist, too. Fuck that.
The country is founded as "a Jewish homeland." I think I understand that. That means, not a homeland for non-Jews. That's actually ok, on a couple of conditions:
1) The country is founded somewhere where there aren't already a lot of non-Jews living and have been living for centuries. These non-Jews have human rights, too. What "the world" and the Nazis did to European Jews doesn't give European Jews the right to violate the human rights of non-Jews.
2) They do it without my tax dollars.

Israeli policies in the West Bank harshly discriminate against Palestinian residents, depriving them of basic necessities while providing lavish amenities for Jewish settlements, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. The report identifies discriminatory practices that have no legitimate security or other justification and calls on Israel, in addition to abiding by its international legal obligation to withdraw the settlements, to end these violations of Palestinians' rights. http://www.hrw.org/middle-eastn-africa/israel-and-occupied-territories

" ... legally the status of the West Bank falls under the international law of belligerent occupation, as distinguished from nonbelligerent occupation that follows an armistice. This assumes the possibility of renewed fighting, and affords the occupier "broad leeway". The West Bank has a unique status in two respects; first, there is no precedent for a belligerent occupation lasting for more than a brief period, and second, that the West Bank was not part of a sovereign country before occupation—thus, in legal terms, there is no "reversioner" for the West Bank. This means that sovereignty of the West Bank is currently suspended, and, according to some, Israel, as the only successor state to the Palestine Mandate, has a status that "goes beyond that of military occupier alone."<67> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank#Legal_status

Two and half million Palestinians have no say in the policies and laws under which they conduct their daily lives. Until the Israeli military leaves the West Bank it remains, effectively part of Israel. There is a puppet police force operated by the PA but it cannot do anything without Israeli sanction and if it attempt to it is quickly repressed. Additionally, there is a large population of Israeli settlers living in the West Bank and this population is growing so that is is difficult to make an argument that the Israeli government doesn't regard the West Bank as a part of Israel. Otherwise, why would it continue to support continued colonization of the territory? None of these settlements would exist if the Israeli government didn't sanction them officially or unofficially. The government has no problem bulldozing, in short order, a Palestinian or Arab structure it deems "illegitimate." Palestinians must travel on "special" roads to move from town to town and are prohibited from using first class roads that serve the Israeli citizens who live, illegally, in the West Bank.

By your definition, "it's their own fault." I don't agree. And I don't want my tax dollars paying for the occupation.

[shira]

22. There you go with the tax dollars argument, once again.

You realize that if/when a Palestinian state is established, it will be a racist, antisemitic, apartheid state? For example, in his native Arabic to his people Mahmoud Abbas says there will be no Jewish presence in a future Palestine. His PA currently espouses Nazi like hatred in the media (TV, press, radio) in textbooks, religious sermons, etc. against Jews specifically, not Zionists or Israelis in general. Women are 2nd class citizens while gays and minorities are in worse shape. There is no freedom of dissent, Palestinians in refugee camps within the West Bank have even fewer rights....

Your tax dollars are going to establish that state.

Where are your objections to that? I'd like to see where at any time in any other forum, blog, or essay that you want nothing to do with such a racist, apartheid, antisemitic hateful state and that your tax dollars should not go to establishing a future Palestine like that.

If you've never written any such thing, is it any wonder why you shouldn't be taken seriously?

[mudplanet]

25. I think that, if it is like that, it'd suck balls. And I'd refuse to pay for it

with my tax dollars.

The same rules and principles apply to Jew, Christian, Muslim.

[shira]

26. There's absolutely nothing stopping it from being like that. Look around the mideast neighborhood.

But now since you're aware, I expect you to be just as vocal in your opposition as you are towards Israel.

:)

You could start now. Hamas and the PA are doing all that right now via your tax dollars.

[mudplanet]

29. Are you suggesting that the level of military and monetary support that

Israel, the PA and Hamas receive is somehow comparable? Do the research.

The existence of the State of Israel is entirely dependent of US financial and military support. If there were no Israel there would be no PA or Hamas.

[shira]

31. Monetary support from the USA to Israel and the PA doesn't have to be the same...

Your US tax dollars support the racist, apartheid, and antismitic policies of the PA and Hamas regardless. Obviously, this doesn't bother you in the least.

You're inconsistently applying your "tax dollar" talking point.

If you want to argue tax dollars, be consistent. If from a humanitarian perspective or WRT International Law, then tax dollars have nothing to do with it. The point is you can't be expected to be taken seriously by anyone who matters.

I recommend the following reading for you...
http://www.mideasttruth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8879&sid=8034b240501ae933a3d5839f0f7222d0

[mudplanet]

32. It bothers me that my tax dollars are used to repress people but

US support for Israel and the PA/Hamas doesn't reach parity by any measure (per capita being the best one).

You're convinced that the only crimes against humanity that concern me are those committed by the government of Israel, and it simply isn't true.

Have you ever once seen me defending human rights violations by PA/Hamas on DU? Or attempting to minimize stories of human rights violations by PA/Hamas?

[shira]

34. If that bothered you, then you'd use the "tax dollar" argument against the PA/Hamas.

FWIW, if more of your tax dollars went to the PA/Hamas than Israel, would you advocate as fiercely against them? Would you say nothing against Israel as you do now WRT the PA/Hamas? Actually, the PA is the largest recipient of foreign aid in the world, per capita...
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/crs/rs22370.pdf

What would you think of me if I only used the "tax dollar" talking point WRT Hamas/PA funding and no other cause, organization, country, etc.?

When it comes to spending your "tax dollars", show me anywhere else on any forum, blog, or whatever where you've posted something unrelated to Israel.

[mudplanet]

37. Would I advocate as fiercely against them? Damn straight I would.

What would I think of you if you used the tax dollar argument against the PA/Hamas - I'd begin to suspect that you were morally sane.

I don't think any of those organizations should get tax dollars. But, relatively speaking, Israel gets one billion of my tax dollars yearly, PA/Hamas get one on my tax dollars. But I guess I'm a little bit blind not to see that it's the same thing.

I strongly suspect you think Israel should get all the funding it asks for no matter what crimes it commits.

Show me posts where you object to human rights crimes Israel commits. You don't.In fact, you repeatedly deny that Israel commits human rights crimes in spite of the overwhelming body of evidence that is has and continues to do so. Defending Israel's record of human rights crimes without defending the Palestinian record on human rights crimes is racism and bigotry. I learned that principle from another poster named Shira.

I'm not sure that there's any point in responding to anything you say. Your attitude is becoming pretty obvious.

[shira]

44. You didn't answer my questions. n/t

[mudplanet]

38. If case you haven't gotten the message from my reply to your other posts

I don't really care if you take me seriously. You already have your mind made up and your not going to let little things like facts and sense change it.

As to "anyone who matters." What or who ever gave you the idea that you matter?

[shira]

45. Serious people respond to legitimate criticism and actual facts.

All you have to offer is hyperbole, double standards, demonization, and slander.

[mudplanet]

48. Frankly, the only reason I respond to your posts is so that someone

reading this forum doesn't stumble across them and take the things said in them as true or accurate.

[shira]

50. If you don't believe what I say or write is accurate, then I invite you to correct me. n/t

[oberliner]

6. Made no comment on anything being "excusable"

Also see no need to bring up the Nazis.

This has nothing to do with "picking on the Zionists" - whatever that means.

My point is that an article/blog post like this one outlining some of the various indignities many Palestinians are forced to go through in the West Bank is undercut by the preposterous and demonstrably false statement made at the end.

Such hyperbole does not serve an otherwise just cause of bringing these things to light with first-hand narrative accounts.

[mudplanet]

9. I agree that the story is weakened by the authors assertions tha Israel

is the "Sole violator?"

But I don't see it as an important point.

There are racist Arabs, racist Israelis, racists everywhere. I'm not even sure, as Herr Perfesser points out above, that what the author is describing is technically racism.

But it is a good example of the ongoing and systematic campaign Israel is carrying out to steal Palestinian land and homes in violation of international law. And, as we have established fairly credibly in previous discussions, it is conducting this crime wave with my tax dollars.

[oberliner]

11. I agree with you about the settlements

They ought to be withdrawn as part of a permanent peace agreement between the Israelis and Palestinians. The US does, however, have provisions that none of the aid given to Israel can be used for any settlement-related activities so it doesn't involve your tax dollars. There are a lot of private donations and the like.

[mudplanet]

14. This is not just misleading but simply not true

As I posted in one of our previous discussions, the US gives grants to Israel and in one of those posts you may have noted a grant of multiple millions of dollars for relocating some military bases that are in the West Bank. As a result of this grant the government of Israel can now spend the money in it's own budget that would have had to be allocated for this relocation on building and expanding settlements in the West Bank.

All US funds that are given to Israel free up other funds for the Israeli government to continue it's campaign of building and expanding settlements in the West Bank. This principle is well recognized in US law as evidenced by the illegality of US citizens donating money or materials to medical organizations that are part of or work with "terrorist" organizations under the principle that those "terrorist" organizations will simply use the money it would otherwise have had to spend on medical care to further it's political goals.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[oberliner]

20. Good points

Can't argue with any of that.

[shira]

10. The point isn't to help Palestinians, but to demonize and delegitimize. n/t

[mudplanet]

27. Look, Shira. Israel is inhabited, for the most part, by decent, intelligent and

fair minded people. They are, for the most part, the descendants of some of the smartest and finest people in Europe. And many of them agree with many of the points I make in these forums.

But there is a significant faction in Israel that is racist, that believes that Jews have more rights than non-Jews, that recognizes that there were lots of non-Jews living in what is present day Israel prior to 1947, and that just doesn't give a damn about the rights of those non-Jews. And these people have inordinate power in Israeli politics and policies.

I can support the continued existence of "a Jewish state" but only under certain conditions, the primary one being that that state treat everyone within its borders and the areas under its control, equally and fairly. And by support, I mean to advocate for and to support with my tax dollars.

I'm not going to agree to pretend that violations of human rights by Israel aren't happening, or are "a anomaly in an otherwise humane occupation" if it isn't true.

[shira]

28. That "significant faction" you believe to be racist has no influence...

...within Israel WRT its policies to Arab Israelis, who are all equal under Israeli law with Jews. While discrimination exists within Israel, it's certainly no worse than in any other western liberal democracy. The Tea Party of the USA is more influential than this significant faction within Israel.

As to treatment of Palestinians in the WB and Gaza, Israel's intent is clear. They've made peace with Egypt and Jordan, withdrew from Lebanon and Gaza, and have offered several credible peace deals to PA leadership in the past decade alone. It's not Israel's fault PA leadership has rejected those deals, the latest being almost identical to the Geneva Initiative that many liberals throughout the world have praised.

A liberal democracy in a sea of totalitarianism is more than worthy of support.

[mudplanet]

30. That's your opinion. I don't think it's based on facts and reality, but you're entitled to it.

[azurnoir]

35. complete HRW quote from a study they conducted Israel/West Bank: Separate and Unequal

Moreover, in addressing security concerns, Israel often acts as if all Palestinians pose a security threat by virtue of their race, ethnicity, and national origin, rather than narrowly tailoring restrictions to specific individuals who are shown to pose a threat. The legal prohibition of discrimination prohibits such broad-brush restrictions.

"The world long ago discarded spurious arguments to justify treating one group of people differently from another merely because of their race, ethnicity, or national origin," Bogert said. "It's time for Israel to end its policies of discrimination and stop treating Palestinians under its control markedly worse than Jews in the same area."

http://www.hrw.org/node/95113

the article is well worth the read it was posted on DU about 10 days ago

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x340274

[shira]

36. Hard to take HRW seriously on racism when they don't report on actual slavery in Mauritania.

And of course, HRW fails to report on the fact that the PA receives the largest amount of financial aid per capita in the world, but after all these years still has many problems WRT basic infrastructure.

Maybe the PA should stop diverting funds to paying Hamas salaries in Gaza, and other bonuses to PLO officials....and be more responsible towards its citizens.

HRW thinks its time is better spent falsely accusing Israel of racism while ignoring slavery conditions in Mauritania.

:eyes:

[mudplanet]

40. Mauritania? Desperate?

So HRW's reports, all of them, critical of state violence and racist policies around the world, are invalid.

No, it's just the ones critical of Israel's actions that are invalid. All the other ones, the ones that point out state violence and human rights crimes in Arab countries, those are valid.

Desperate indeed.

[azurnoir]

42. Thank you for doing that n/t

[shira]

43. Look for yourself. Since 1994, HRW hasn't written one report on Mauritania slavery.

Isn't that their job?

And you don't think it's important that HRW includes info. about the PA squandering $$$ they receive from the International Community rather than spend it responsibly on Palestinian infrastructure? The PA receives the most $$$ per capita than any other entity on the planet and nothing ever changes for the better under their watch?

[mudplanet]

47. Well, they're certainly failing regarding Mauritania. But that doesn't

destroy their credibility regarding Israel/Palestine. Besides, much of the West Bank isn't even under the control of the PA. It's Israel's responsibility to use aid money correctly in those areas.

[shira]

51. It's not just Mauritania. The founder of HRW thinks HRW is crap WRT its obsession bashing Israel.

[mudplanet]

54. And the UN Human Rights Commission. Is it shit also? Because

it criticizes the Israeli human rights record frequently as well. As a matter of fact nearly every human rights organization has a long history of finding serious problems with Israel and human rights.

I have very few problems refuting almost everything you say almost every time you post a comment, and I usually take the time to cite my references and post links, but it's becoming tiresome. Why bother? You almost never cite a source or post a link, apparently you think that it's credible because you say it is. It's actually exactly the opposite. If you say it, the reverse is probably true.

[oberliner]

55. The UN Human Rights Commission was discredited and recently disbanded

It was criticized fairly widely across a broad international spectrum for a variety of reasons - including the sizable number of human rights violators as members and in leadership positions.

It was subsequently replaced by a new organization called the UN Human Rights Council.

[mudplanet]

57. Endorsing Gaza war report, UN Human Rights Council condemns Israel

the more things change the more they stay the same

but thanks for the info

[oberliner]

60. The UN Human Rights Council condemned both the Israelis and the Palestinians in that conflict

The article from the UN website with the title you've posted indicates as much.

It is hard to imagine there being any military conflict of any kind that would not be subject to some kind of condemnation for human rights violations.

[azurnoir]

63. The UNHRC was formed in 2006 here is a list of member countries

and more about the formation of the Council



http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/membership.htm


The Human Rights Council is an inter-governmental body within the UN system made up of 47 States responsible for strengthening the promotion and protection of human rights around the globe. The Council was created by the UN General Assembly on 15 March 2006 with the main purpose of addressing situations of human rights violations and make recommendations on them.

One year after holding its first meeting, on 18 June 2007, the Council adopted its “Institution-building package” providing elements to guide it in its future work. Among the elements is the new Universal Periodic Review mechanism which will assess the human rights situations in all 192 UN Member States. Other features include a new Advisory Committee which serves as the Council’s “think tank” providing it with expertise and advice on thematic human rights issues and the revised Complaints Procedure mechanism which allows individuals and organizations to bring complaints about human rights violations to the attention of the Council. The Human Rights Council also continues to work closely with the UN Special Procedures established by the former Commission on Human Rights and assumed by the Council.

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/

Human Rights Council (2006- )

The Human Rights Council was established by General Assembly resolution 60/251 of 15 March 2006. The Human Rights Council is the successor of the Commission on Human Rights. The Council meets in regular session three times annually and in special session as needed, and reports to the General Assembly.

Human Rights Council resolution 5/1 of 18 June 2007, “Institution-building of the United Nations Human Rights Council,” sets out the main mechanisms and subsidiary bodies of the Council; General Assembly resolution 62/219 of 22 December 2007, inter alia, endorses the decision of the Human Rights Council to adopt resolution 5/1. The text of Human Rights Council resolution 5/1 is found in its report to the General Assembly for its 5th session (A/62/53).

* Working documents are issued under the series symbol A/HRC/-.
* Summary records of meetings are issued under the series symbol A/HRC//SR..
* The sessional reports are published initially as A/HRC/- documents. An annual cumulation covering all sessions for a year is later issued as Supplement 53 to the Official Records of the General Assembly (list of symbols). The reports provide summaries of the work concluded and contain the texts of resolutions and decisions adopted by the Council.
* Resolutions and decisions are not released as separate documents but may be retrieved as individual items through the Charter-based bodies database.
* UN Headquarters press releases for the Council, issued under the series symbol HRC/-, are accessible through the search option at the Press Releases website. Other press releases may be available through the UN Office at Geneva News and Media site and the OHCHR Media Centre.

http://www.un.org/depts/dhl/resguide/spechr.htm#rights

[shira]

65. Yep, the UNHRC is shit too. Some of the worst abusers of human rights (Libya, Cuba) rule the roost.

What do you expect them to do, hang themselves?

No, they align themselves with other 3rd world tinpot dictatorships and totalitarian regimes in need of oil, who in turn demand UN protection in votes. And with 1 country, 1 vote Libya and Saudi Arabia cancel out the votes of Canada and the USA.

It's a completely political organization.

Why would you take seriously a human rights commission with a serial human rights abuser like Libya judging others on human rights? What's worse is that they were voted into the UNHRC by 155 of 192 member nations, FFS! Three-fourths of the UN thinks Libya is credible enough to serve on a human rights commission! If you can't see what a joke the UNHRC is for allowing Libya to judge others on human rights, there's no hope for you. So no, I don't take seriously anything they have to say about Israel. Consider the source.

Oh yeah, and your tax dollars are the primary source of funds keeping the UNHRC going.

[mudplanet]

67. Then give us a list of human rights organizations of which you approve

Are there any?

[shira]

70. Well first, do you find the UNHRC credible with Libya judging other nations' human rights? n/t

[mudplanet]

71. Please provide a list, however short, of human rights organizations

that you feel are credible.

[azurnoir]

41. I do not quite understand why people who have been told they are on ignore contiue to reply

to comments made the person that has found this necessary, perhaps it is a desire to simply broadcast or an opportunity to get their point of view in unopposed which would lead some to question the validity of that particular view

[mudplanet]

46. I think it's important to respond to her because someone who

is not reasonably informed in the debate may stumble upon this discussion and if I (or someone) hasn't refuted the misinformation (being polite here) she spreads they may take it as true.

Besides, I've had people on DU "ignore" me and I see it as a childish way to have a discussion. "Here's what I think and why, but I'm not interested in what you have to say." And when you try to respond anyway they put their fingers in their ears and start saying "La la la la," really loudly. It's really mature.

It is a complex issue. I tried reading The Jerusalem Question by Bovis (http://books.google.com/books?id=1L49R1xKA6QC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_navlinks_s#v=onepage&q&f=false) and went crosseyed.

But facts are facts, and bullshit is bullshit. And a lot of the people advocating the Israeli side of the argument employ outright lies and pernicious half-truths and it's enough to make a maggot gag. They have a belief, and they flail around in desperation for facts to support it, and when facts that contradict that belief turn up instead, they start insisting that up is down and red is green. One is insisting that Israel isn't a Jewish state. Well, technically, it's arguable. You don't have to be Jewish to be a citizen, and there aren't different classes of citizenship. But practically, what else is a state that defines itself as "the Jewish homeland" and refuses equal rights for something like twenty percent of the population under it's control because of their religion or ethnicity than a religiously defined state that discriminates against people due to their faith?

It's the way conservatives think and it surprises me to find so much of it on DU.

[azurnoir]

49. you know up until recently for the almost 5 years I have been on DU

I was of the same mind, but sadly have been forced to change it

eta I do understand your reasoning about the poster though and I agree

[oberliner]

53. I don't understand why people put others on ignore

Isn't the part of the point of a message board to discuss issues with those who might not be completely in agreement?

[mudplanet]

58. Some posters engage in harrassment

Some folks who post aren't really interested in discussion. They use DU as a personal blog and they aren't really interested in what others think about what they say.

And some of us want to learn and to share.

I've been "put on ignore" by at least one major DU blogger/journaler simply because I disagreed with her. She's a good writer but she's not much of a debater. Unfortunately for me, my point was completely shot down when the BP well blew up and contaminated most of the Gulf of Mexico. I was proved wrong, definitely wrong, and terminally wrong.

Everyone can make mistakes.

[oberliner]

61. I can understand it in the case of harrassment

Usually those offending posters who harrass others on here don't last very long on this site.

[azurnoir]

59. well I suppose the reason could vary from person to person

however it would be against DU rules for me to expound on my reasons

[oberliner]

62. Fair enough

It seems, though, that a vigorous debate generally wins the day.

[azurnoir]

68. That would entirely depend on what one considers "debate" n/t

[azurnoir]

69. what seems to be happening is that Israel is "encouraging" Palestinians

to move from Area's B and C of the West Bank and East Jerusalem into the much smaller area A of the West Bank that according to Oslo is the the only completely Palestinian controlled area, by making life very difficult in any other of the area's mentioned

[oberliner]

72. More info about Jub Al-Dib from Ynet (Israeli newspaper)

As 2011 approaches, one Palestinian village appears stuck in the Middle Ages. Jub al-Dib, located in the section of the West Bank under Israel's jurisdiction, has no running water or electricity, and the authorities don't seem to care.

Some 160 people reside in the village, located just a few kilometers from the settlements of Tekoa and Nokdim, of them 75 under the age of 18.

But while the settlements enjoy all of the benefits of modern life, residents of Jub al-Dib light candles after the sun sets in order to provide children with light by which to study. They have no refrigerators or electric heaters, either.

Jub al-Dib has been asking Israel to connect it to electricity and water since 1988, but the appeals were rejected. "We have asked the electric company to hook us up six times since the year 2000 and it took them six months each time to give us a negative answer," says Hamza al-Wahash, the village head.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4007221,00.html