Jews reluctantly abandon Swedish city amid growing anti-Semitism

[oberliner]

MALMO, SWEDEN — At some point, the shouts of “Heil Hitler” that often greeted Marcus Eilenberg as he walked to the 107-year-old Moorish-style synagogue in this port city forced the 32-year-old attorney to make a difficult, life-changing decision: Fearing for his family’s safety after repeated anti-Semitic incidents, Eilenberg reluctantly uprooted himself and his wife and two children, and moved to Israel in May.

<snip>

A continentwide study, conducted by the Institute for Interdisciplinary Research on Conflict and Violence at the University of Bielefeld in Germany, released in December 2009, found that that 45.7% of the Europeans surveyed agree somewhat or strongly with the following statement: “Israel is conducting a war of extermination against the Palestinians.” And 37.4% agreed with this statement: “Considering Israel’s policy, I can understand why people do not like Jews.”

“(There is) quite a high level of anti-Semitism that is hidden beneath critics of Israel’s policies,” said Beate Kupper, one of the study’s principal researchers, in a telephone interview with the Forward, citing this data and a tendency to “blame Jews in general for Israel’s policies.”

Kupper said that in places where there is a strong taboo against expressions of anti-Semitism, such as Germany, “Criticism of Israel is a great way to express your anti-Semitism in an indirect way.”

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jews-reluctantly-abandon-swedish-city-amid-growing-anti-semitism-1.301276

[Warpy]

1. Oh, bollocks.

Most people out here who criticize Israel are criticizing Israel.

While things might be changing for the worst in parts of Europe, it's still considered low class to be a stone bigot in the US. Shouting "Heil Hitler" at a Jew on his way to temple would be met with a sharp reduction in one's list of friends and acquaintances. It's tacky.

However, criticizing a sovereign state is usually just that, no matter who lives there. Perhaps that sovereign state (including our own) would be wise to use those criticisms as an early warning to what it is doing that will ultimately be self defeating.

[oberliner]

4. This article is not about the United States

Would you agree that a sizable minority of people outside the United States do not seem to have the ability to differentiate between a Jew and what's going on in Israel?

Specifically the more than one-third of Europeans who agreed with the statement:

“Considering Israel’s policy, I can understand why people do not like Jews.”

[Warpy]

6. I've been restricted to international political conversations

and yes, most people I've known do differentiate between the two, here and there.

The "criticizing Israel is proof of anti Semitism" thought process is remarkably like the one that says criticizing an idea is the same as a personal insult to the person who has voice that idea.

However, the question was poorly phrased. Had it been, "I don't like the policies of Israel and therefore I don't like Jews" might have elicited a different response, IMO.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

13. No, absolutely not.

I invite you to consider the difference between "I can understand why people believe X" and "I think people are right to believe X".

[WinkyDink]

5. Wow. Way not to comprehend the story. But thanks for speaking for "most people".

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. Apparently not in Malmo

[Wilms]

2. Once again, anyone questioning Israel's aggression is an anti-semite.

:eyes:

[oberliner]

3. “Considering Israel’s policy, I can understand why people do not like Jews.”

Would you say that those who agree with that particular statement are antisemites or harbor some antisemitic feelings?

[Wilms]

8. A whopping 30 some odd percent saying they can "understand" it isn't anti-semite.

In fact, I can "understand" it. You gonna call me an anti-semite for having said so?

[shira]

9. Is that like 'understanding' resentment against Arabs and Muslims for the actions of Al Qaeda?

Or 'understanding' hatred of blacks for what the leadership of Zimbabwe is doing?

:shrug:

[Wilms]

12. Or "understanding" resentment by Arabs and Muslims for the actions of the US?

:shrug:

Well?

[oberliner]

18. But the statement was relating Jews to the actions of the Israeli government

In your example, there is resentment towards the US due to the actions of the US.

In the survey, there is resentment of Jews (not Israelis) due to the actions of Israel.

[Wilms]

19. In my example the the resentment is toward Americans.

Was that soooo hard to figure out?

[shira]

31. You realize there's no "understanding" bigotry against blacks and arabs for a nation's actions?

[Wilms]

36. I don't understand your question.

Could you rephrase it?

[shira]

38. Is it "understandable" to resent blacks and arabs based on some nation's actions?

[Wilms]

40. Let me say it again.

I understand why people do a lot of things. Most of those things, I would not do myself, nor would I condone. But it doesn't prevent my cognitive abilities.

I even understand reasons why it may be so hard for a number of posters on this thread to understand what the word understand means.

I do.

[oberliner]

48. Lots of Jews are not Israelis. Lots of Israelis are not Jews.

All Americans are Americans.

Do you not understand the difference?

[Wilms]

62. Hardly the issue.

Perhaps the respondents don't.

I can UNDERSTAND that too.

[oberliner]

10. So you would count yourself among that whopping 30 some odd percent? (37.4, actually)

I am not going to call you anything for having said so.

Thank you for sharing your perspective.

[Wilms]

11. I didn't expect you to call me reasonable and meme-free. n/t

:hi:

[cali]

24. yes.

[Wilms]

28. But that would be you.

:eyes:

[LeftishBrit]

34. Depends what you mean by 'understand'.

There are psychological and sociological explanations for most sorts of prejudice. But they are still prejudices.

If by 'understand' you mean 'try to explain', that is not antisemitic. If by 'understand', you mean 'excuse' or 'sympathize with', that is antisemitic.

[Wilms]

37. I use the word the way the dictionary uses it.

un·der·stand/ˌəndərˈstand/Verb

1. Perceive the intended meaning of (words, a language, or speaker): "he could usually make himself understood"; "she understood what he was saying".

2. Perceive the significance, explanation, or cause of (something): "she didn't really understand the situation".

[Donald Ian Rankin]

14. No, most of them are not.

People who do not like Jews are antisemites.

People who can understand why other people do not like Jews are not (necessarily).

[oberliner]

17. Do you count yourself among the 37 percent who agreed with that statement?

I wonder how well represented that group is in the US.

[Wilms]

20. I would have preferred if 100% UNDERSTOOD.

That's not agreement or anything close. It means you have a brain and can do simple cause and effect analysis.

Put down the pom-poms and give it the 'ol college try.

[oberliner]

25. You'd prefer it if 100 percent of folks understood why people do not like Jews?

Good to know.

[Wilms]

27. Yes I do.

I abhor ignorance.

[shaayecanaan]

21. I think its a deliberately nebulous question...

the ADL uses a similar methodology in its own questionnaire. Some of its questions are:- "do you think that Jews stick together more than other people?" and "do you think that many Jews are loyal to Israel?".

Get enough "yes" answers and you can put together a press release with a screaming headline saying "15% of Americans are hard core anti-Semites".

Personally, I think that the Spanish-Australians who are currently still doing laps of my block with stereos pumping and Spanish flags sticking out of their cars clearly feel some sense of loyalty/affinity/whatever to Spain. I imagine if Israel had won the World Cup many Jews would be doing the same thing.

[oberliner]

22. The Institute for Interdisciplinary Research on Conflict and Violence at Bielefeld University

They conducted this survey as part of a larger survey addressing issues of what it called "group-focused enmity" across Europe. The survey included a variety of questions regarding prejudice, racism, and discrimination against (and by) different groups in several countries in Western Europe. The survey looked at questions of discrimination against Jews, Muslims, Blacks, women, homosexuals, and immigrants generally.

If you spend some time on the university's website and look over the material related to the work of this particular institute, I doubt you will conclude that they wrote "deliberately nebulous" questions as part of this comprehensive survey in order to produce "screaming headlines" of any sort.

[Wilms]

30. And that should change the posters assessment that the question is nebulous?

There's a severe logic problem here.

[oberliner]

49. The claim was that the question was "deliberately" nebulous

Why would this group do that deliberately? What would be the motivation?

Were they deliberately nebulous with the other questions in the survey?

[shaayecanaan]

58. Re: deliberately nebulous

Were they deliberately nebulous with the other questions in the survey?

They may well have been.

I suspect that the reason is that researchers think that by asking oblique questions they can get at peoples' "true" feelings. I am not so persuaded myself, as obviously the more nebulous a question becomes the more difficult it is to answer yes or no, and the more complicated the reasons are for giving an answer.

If the question was "Given the September 11 terrorist attacks and other such incidents around the world, do you understand why people do not like Arabs" I imagine quite a few people would answer yes. I would probably answer yes myself, as its quite easy to understand *why* people might not like Arabs, irrespective of one's own feelings on the matter.

[LeftishBrit]

35. Good point!

The researchers are studying discrimination in general, and that is a very important issue.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

26. I had to read it several times to answer that.

The technical answer is "I think so, yes" - I think I do probably understand most of the reasons why people dislike Jews, and considering Israel's policies doesn't change that fact.

The answer is slightly less that a clear-cut "yes" because of the requirement that I'm considering Israel's policies when I answer, though - I don't think that Israel's policies are the sole, or probably even the most significant, source of antisemitism - I think that any ethnic group is going to attract hostility from others, but an ethnic group that is a) actively insular and b) often more prosperous than its neighbours is going to attract significantly more than others (c.f. those of Chinese descent in parts of Asia - I think I mean Malaysia, but I'm not sure). I do think that Israel's policies have been a significant contributory factor, especially to Arab/Muslim antisemitism, though.

[shaayecanaan]

74. The Chinese in Malaysia...

Also the Chinese in Indonesia. The Indians in Fiji, and also in Uganda (who were expelled during the reign of Idi Amin) and other parts of Africa.

There are also wealthy Palestinian and Lebanese diaspora communities in South America and in the case of the Lebanese, West Africa. Ironically, the sympathy felt by much of the third world towards the Palestinians has shielded them from resentment in those countries where they have assumed relative wealth and influence - such as El Salvador and Belize which have had Palestinian presidents.

From what I can tell, most Jews prefer to believe that anti-semitism is some kind of metaphysical "cosmological constant" rather than a social or political phenomenon, perhaps because that way they can portray anti-semitism as being categorically unique, and also because they probably believe that attributing anti-Jewish sentiment to the relative wealth and influence of Jewish people would be akin to blaming Jews for their own persecution.

[cali]

23. wtf? shouting Heil Hitler at Jews in Sweden is legitimately criticizing Israel?

Your excuse of blatant bigotry is flat out repulsive.

[Wilms]

29. Nah.

But legitimately criticizing Israel isn't antisemitism.

And a few people here seem to not understand that.

You?

[LeftishBrit]

33. Legitimately criticizing Israel is fine.

Screaming 'Heil Hitler' at Swedish (or other Europaean) Jews is not fine, and is quite clearly antisemitism.

It is Europaean antisemitism that is the focus of the article. I think that it needs to be seen more in the context of general Europaean xenophobia, and less specifically in terms of attitudes to Israel (often excuses for antisemitism; rarely the real causes of it). But 'Heil Hitler' and 'I think that Israel needs to end the Occupation' are not equivalent phrases, and should not be seen as such; nor should the second be used as an excuse for the first.

[cali]

39. I criticize Israel regularly here, but I have no more tolerance for anti-semitism than for

any other form of bigotry.

You?

[Wilms]

41. A guy walking down the street verbally accosting someone would meet my condemnation.

Posters on this thread accosting other posters who claim to "understand" something also meets my condemnation.

[cali]

42. sorry, but claiming to understand why people dislike/hate jews because of

Israeli oppression in Gaza/WB, is endorsing bigotry.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

43. But that wasn't what the question asked.

It asks "considering Israel's policy, can you understand why people dislike Jews?". It does *not* ask "do you think disliking Jews because of Israel's policy is understandable?" (and note the difference in usage between "I understand x" and "I think x is understandable").

[cali]

44. that's carrying hair splitting to an absurd length

[azurnoir]

45. so cali do you "claim" also not to "understand" this

from the article

One victim was Jonathan Tsubarah, 19, the son of an Israeli Jew who settled in Sweden. As he strolled through the city’s cobble-stoned Gustav Adolph Square on August 21, 2009, three young men — a Palestinian and two Somalis — stopped him and asked where he was from, he recalled.

“I’m from Israel,” Tsubarah responded.

“I’m from Palestine,” one assailant retorted, “and I will kill you.”

The three beat him to the ground and kicked him in the back, Tsubarah said. “Kill the Jew,” they shouted. “Now are you proud to be a Jew?”

“No I am not,” the slightly built teenager replied. He said he did this just to get them to stop kicking him. Tsubarah plans to go to Israel and join the army.

I do understand it just as I could understand a white kid who grows up in a predominately Black area and frequently gets beat up not liking Black people understanding does not mean agreeing or endorsing it means understanding

your comments strongly resemble those of the right wing in this country post 9/11 in respect to those that said we needed to take a look at the ways in which this country deals with Muslim counties

[cali]

46. no, I don't understand it beyond that stupid people do stupid shit.

[azurnoir]

51. a complete lack of understanding just as I expected

but you see understanding motivations can be when properly applied a step towards solving the problems

[cali]

56. ridiculous. how do you think understanding the haters will change them?

It never has. I don't understand the Israeli settlers hate for Palestinians, though clearly you, in your self-vaunted genius, do. I don't understand the motivations of the youth in Malmo who beat someone because they're a Jew either.

I'm sure your empathy and understanding toward these haters will make a huge differences.

Not.

[azurnoir]

57. and your hostlity will make a difference?

at least my way allows for change and the possibility of a better future

[oberliner]

47. I have no understanding of that sort of behavior

Just as I have no understanding of the random acts of violence against Muslims (and those who "looked like" Muslims) that occurred in the US after the 9/11 attacks.

That sort of behavior makes absolutely no sense to me. I lost a family friend in the 9/11 attacks but I could not imagine in my wildest dreams randomly beating up or threatening to kill a Muslim or Arab as a result.

Totally illogical and incomprehensible, like the incident you cited from the OP.

[azurnoir]

50. could that be because you are presumably an adult?

and were I suspect an adult when 9/11 occurred? Actually I have no idea how old you are but if forced to guess I would say 50+-10 or 40-60 wide range but well into adulthood, and in the cases I cited the people involved were juveniles?

[oberliner]

54. Where does it say the people involved were juveniles?

They are identified as "young men" in the article.

[azurnoir]

55. By juvenile should I assume you are adhering

to the strict legal terminology, that being under 18, rather than the in broader emotional and mental sense of the word juvenile? IMO while in the legal sense one reaches adulthood at 18 in the reality most do not begin to mature into adulthood until somewhere between 25 and 30, and that is what I meant the young man in my example from the article was 19

[shaayecanaan]

60. This is where things get tricky...

you interpret "understand" as "accept". I would probably interpret "understand" as "comprehend". Again, this probably goes back to the nature of the question.

[oberliner]

63. What if the statement was simply "I can understand why people do not like Jews" ?

Is that a statement that you would agree with if asked by a poll taker?

If so, would you also agree with the statement if Jews was replaced by Blacks, Arabs, Muslims, or Homosexuals? (I believe those were the other categories examined in the survey)

[azurnoir]

70. sorry am not the poster but

I could answer yes to all of your examples that is because I am familiar with all or most of the stereotypes applied to each of those groups to justify dislike or in reality bigotry, that I understand these things is hardly the same as supporting or endorsing them, just that one has knowledge of the motivations behind them , however what would really matter is who is doing the polling and why very few polling groups do not have a political leaning of one way or the other

[shaayecanaan]

73. Well, that would be a different question...

If we took four questions:-

1) Do you hate Arabs?

2) Do you feel apprehensive around Arabs?

3) Do you understand why people do not like Arabs?

4) Given September 11 and other terrorist incidents, do you understand why people would not like Arabs?

my guess is you would have a distinct minority answering yes to the first question, with increasing pluralities/majorities answering yes to the subsequent three questions.

[oberliner]

76. 3 and 4 are the same question nt

[shaayecanaan]

77. They would get different responses...

after all, survey responses depend to a great extent on the questions that you ask.

From what I can tell, most Jews who are leaving this city of Malmo are leaving for Stockholm and other Swedish cities, so as far as I can tell it is not really an issue of European anti-semitism.

[oberliner]

78. If it is not really an issue of European anti-semitism, what do you think the issue is?

What is going on in Malmo with respect to its Jewish population and why?

[shaayecanaan]

79. Well, there appears to be white flight from Malmo in general...

http://wapedia.mobi/en/White_flight

"White flight in Sweden has followed the same pattern as white flight elsewhere. The triggering event was mass immigration starting in the 1990s, especially in larger cities. The white flight is more obvious in suburban areas. In particular, in the third largest city of Malmö, white flight is the most obvious. Infamous suburbs in Malmö, such as Rosengård have as much as 86% immigrants <20> and percentage gets higher with the descendents of immigrants, mostly originating from the Middle East/North Africa. In recent debates (2009) in Sweden, different parties argued for the necessity of breaking the social structure in nearby white segregated towns like Vellinge by moving newly arrived young male immigrants to those areas by law <21>."

It would seem that Jewish flight from Malmo appears to be a subset (to some extent) of white flight in general from that city, particularly given that most Jews, like most Whites, are departing for other cities in Sweden such as Stockholm and Gotheburg.

If the issue was European anti-semitism, and if Stockholm is as much a European city as Malmo, and Jews for the most part are leaving Malmo for Stockholm, then the issue does not seem to be primarily related to European anti-semitism. I don't really think I can spell it out any clearer for you.

I realise that you are very keen on imparting your sense of spin on this particular article, namely that Europeans are all anti-semites and that their criticism of Israel is informed by that particular fact. However, I dont think the facts bear you out.

[oberliner]

87. Interesting - thanks for your insights

Incidentally, I am not keen on imparting any kind of spin on this article.

I don't think Europeans are all anti-semites by any means.

I don't really know much about Europeans and their attitudes with respect to Israel beyond what I've read in some articles and surveys to be honest.

The more information, insights, and perspectives the better.

[MineralMan]

15. Personally, I think the Jews in Sweden should arm themselves and

start dropping a few of these anti-Semite morons where they stand. That should slow things down a bit.

However you feel about Israel, anti-Semitism is a plague.

[IndianaGreen]

16. This is truly a very tragic story!

It should never come down to this.

[LeftishBrit]

32. As regards antisemitism in Europe, a few things to remember...

To preface it all: yes, antisemitism is a problem in Europe; yes, as always in hard economic times, it is getting worse, though not to the cataclysmic level that is sometimes implied. But there is often an implied misrepresentation by Europaeans, Americans and Israelis on the Right, that antisemitism in Europe is *mainly* due to Muslim immigrants and/or 'the Left'. This, among other things, means that reports outside Europe on antisemitism tend to focus on countries with significant Muslim populations, while paying less attention to other, often much more antisemitic countries - e.g. how many people would realize from the press that Poland has a very much more severe antisemitism problem than those 'liberal' countries that are 'allowing themselves to be overrun by Muslims'? (Though I note that the author of this article has written several articles about the problems in Poland -and good for him!) Or that one of the most antisemitic countries in Western Europe is Spain?

To expand on particular points:

(1) There are huge differences between different parts of Europe. In Eastern Europe, especially Poland and Hungary, there is a HUGE problem with antisemitism (and other forms of xenophobia). It did not end with the war, and is still pretty nasty.

On the other hand, most parts of Western Europe are significantly better, with the UK being one of the better countries as regards antisemitism - which is not to say that it isn't a problem here at all.

(2) According to surveys by the ADL and similar groups, Sweden is no worse than the USA for antisemitism (whether that is saying much, may be a matter of opinion!). About 5% of Swedes express a blatant dislike of Jews, while 15% express agreement with the antisemitic view that Jews have too much influence. The same view is endorsed by 14% of Americans in the same surveys.

(3) Europe is very *xenophobic* in general. It is not, in most countries, restricted to views of Jews. The xenophobia is strongest on the Right, but, since it's so pervasive, it is certainly not unknown in those in Left-wing parties too. In Sweden, Muslims (who constitute under 5% of the population, though they may be more concentrated in Malmo) are generally considered to have received the *most* prejudice, especially after 9-11. Over half of Muslims reported being verbally or physically attacked during the period after 9-11; over 40% of non-Muslims claimed to have observed abuse of Muslims at that time. It is probably less extreme now, but still a big problem. General anti-immigrant sentiment is also common in Sweden, as in many other Europaean countries including the UK. In 2004, 45% of Swedes endorsed the view that Sweden should close its borders to immigration. I would expect the figure to be even higher post-credit-crunch.

(4) Anti-Israel sentiment often *reflects* antisemitism, but I doubt that it is a major *cause* of it (an *excuse* for it, yes.) People who don't like Jews may use the term 'Zionists' as a slightly more politically correct term. Much criticism of Israel is just criticism of Israel; but those who claim that Israel is the worst country in the world or is controlling other countries are influenced by antisemitic myths. But such people would still be antisemitic, regardless of what Israel did and regardless of whether left-wingers objected to what Israel did; and indeed, regardless of whether Israel existed.

(5) Jews, Muslims, immigrants, Roma/ travellers, and other minorities in Europe should overcome mutual prejudices and present a united front against all forms of xenophobia. We must all hang together, or we *could* all hang separately!

[Mosby]

52. does anyone know why so many muslims

In malmo can't speak swedish? Do the muslims in malmo have a different school system than other swedes? How common is this language problem in other euro contries like france for example?

[LeftishBrit]

53. I would assume it's because many are recent immigrants and haven't yet learned Swedish

In countries such as the UK, where most Muslims have been in the country for a while or were born here (over half were born here), most speak the language of the host country, though a number of people who immigrated here as adults have limited English.

[Violet_Crumble]

81. People used to ask the same about Italian immigrants here not speaking English...

Oh, and let's not forget the same aimed at the Vietnmaese refugees after that. Picking up the language of a host country isn't an issue specific to Muslims, and for those who ask 'questions' like you did, do you have any idea how difficult it is for adults to pick up an entirely new language??

[Mosby]

92. Yes I understand that it can be very difficult for adults especially

to learn new languages. The article mentioned that "those who have been without work for 10 to 15 years, said that the main reason that 80% to 90% of Muslims between the ages of 18 and 34 can’t find jobs is that they can’t speak Swedish." which is why I asked about separate school systems. It seems that Sweden has failed to assimilate it's Muslim population in part because young Muslims have already been indoctrinated to reject western methods - "Swedish experts agree that integration of Muslims into Swedish society has failed, and this undermines the development of a more diverse society. Many pupils in heavily Muslim schools reject the authority of female teachers."

Personally I don't support separate school systems, whether in Israel or anywhere else.

[Crunchy Frog]

59. Yes. All of us critics of Israeli policy are really anti-semites.

:eyes:

[Behind the Aegis]

61. Not all.

[Crunchy Frog]

64. To the person who responded to my post

I'd respond back to you, but you're on ignore, and I have no idea what you've posted. :)

[Behind the Aegis]

65. How sad for you, for you learn nothing.

[proteus_lives]

67. The ignore function is godsend for the ignorant.

[azurnoir]

68. Hardly it means we simply do not answer certain people not worth the time

like I rarely engage you

[proteus_lives]

69. You'd rather not engage and debate.

You prefer one-sided conversations where people only agree with you.

I'll admit, it's safer but you won't learn anything.

[azurnoir]

71. depends on who there are ProIsrael posters I do debate

and some I do not, and in fact I hate threads where everyone is in agreement that is why I rarely post on threads about Iraq or Afghanistan virtually no one here says its a good thing or agrees with our governments actions so there is very little debate, howeer when it comes to Israel's action such as the recent attack on the Mavi Mamara there is much debate mostly created by the ProIsrael side who will then complain that "other" countries do not get debated here, I say come up out of I/P and make similar posts concerning how right or necessary the civilian deaths in Afghanistan or Iraq are and you'll have all the debate you can handle and then some

[Violet_Crumble]

82. Yep, that's why there's threads here with a shitload of exchanges between Az and Shira...

How does someone trying to accuse Az of preferring one-sided conversations explain those many threads away? ;)

[Violet_Crumble]

80. Whining about people using the ignore function is a godsend for the ignorant

There's nothing ignorant about putting attention-seeking abusive trolls on ignore. The ignore feature is there for a reason and Skinner encourages people to use it. If you have a problem with that, take it up with him...

[TomClash]

86. More like the ignorant are a godsend for the ignore function nt

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Crunchy Frog]

72. You completely misread the meaning of my post.

I was responding to a couple of passages in particular:

“(There is) quite a high level of anti-Semitism that is hidden beneath critics of Israel’s policies,” said Beate Kupper, one of the study’s principal researchers, in a telephone interview with the Forward, citing this data and a tendency to “blame Jews in general for Israel’s policies.”

Kupper said that in places where there is a strong taboo against expressions of anti-Semitism, such as Germany, “Criticism of Israel is a great way to express your anti-Semitism in an indirect way.”

The things listed in your post are most definitely expressions of real anti-semitism and I never suggested that they weren't. The problem I have comes when they are conflated with "criticism of Israel".

The article is indirectly painting anyone who criticizes Israel as a covert anti-semite, and equating them with people shout "Heil Hitler" and throw firecrackers at Jews.

I'm not indifferent to real anti-semitism. I just have an eye roll reaction to attempts to conflate it with criticism of Israeli policies.

[Shaktimaan]

75. Do you understand...

that it is common to cloak actual anti-semitism under remarks camouflaged as anti-zionism? Which I believe was the point of the article.

[Violet_Crumble]

83. That's incorrect. The article talked about criticism of Israel, not anti-Zionism...

Big difference there. Also, it's no more common to cloak actual anti-semitism under remarks criticising Israel than it is to cloak anti-Arab bigotry under remarks criticising the Palestinians...

[oberliner]

84. Glad to see you back in the I/P forum!

Welcome back - your input has been greatly missed.

[Shaktimaan]

93. what is the "big difference"

Anti-semitism based on criticism of Israeli policy is hugely different than anti-semitism based on anti-zionism?

Also, it's no more common to cloak actual anti-semitism under remarks criticising Israel than it is to cloak anti-Arab bigotry under remarks criticising the Palestinians...

What in the world are you basing that on?

[Violet_Crumble]

94. One doesn't have to be antizionist to criticize Israel

The author of the article claimed criticism of Israel masked antisemitism, not that antizionism did...

What in the world I'm basing it on is the same logic you used to come up withYour claim

[TomClash]

85. The study also says

62% of Europeans believe Jews enrich European culture. That was apparently left out of the article somehow.

It is not unreasonable to argue that Jews who blindly support Israeli policies are in part responsible for Israel's policies (see Daniel Pipes and his disciples, one of whom regularly posts in this forum). That type of support is what helps AIPAC (and worse) thrive. It is stupid to say that Jews "in general", regardless of their level of support for Israel, bear responsibility for those policies.

I would like to see a study that determined what effect, if any, Israeli policies had on the level and intensity of anti-semitism.

[oberliner]

88. Almost 40 percent of Europeans don't think Jews enrich European culture?

That is pretty staggering.

I think there are more non-Jews than Jews who blindly support Israeli policies. Are they not just as much responsible? Some of the most outspoken critics of Israeli policies are Jewish. Whereas many of the most vociferous defenders of Israeli policies are not Jewish.

I also would like to see a study like the one you describe.

[LeftishBrit]

89. Yes, but I think you'd get a much higher figure for many other groups

E.g. Muslims, Gypsies, 'immigrants'. Most Europaeans probably would say that immigrants don't enrich Europaean culture - indeed in several studies in different countries close to half have endorsed drastic measures such as complete closure of the borders, and even 'voluntary' repatriation of existing immigrants - though it is very arguable that immigrants have enriched Europaean culture throughout history.

There are some countries in Europe where specific antisemitism is a severe problem; but in most it is part of a general xenophobic tendency (which doesn't make it any better; but what results from tribalism cannot be remedied by more tribalism, against Muslims, immigrants, secularists, or 'the left'. There needs to be concerted, united action against all forms of bigotry.)

'I think there are more non-Jews than Jews who blindly support Israeli policies. Are they not just as much responsible? Some of the most outspoken critics of Israeli policies are Jewish. Whereas many of the most vociferous defenders of Israeli policies are not Jewish.'

I entirely agree.

I also think that:

(a) it is perfectly true that some people use criticism of Israel as a cloak for antisemitism, and use the term 'Zionist' when they really mean, ahem, a shorter word beginning with J.

but
(b)it is also true that some people use concern about antisemitism, and support for Israel, as a cloak for objecting to anyone who criticizes hawkish American foreign policies. This is particularly common in Christian Zionists, who are of course treating the Jews as pawns, not as friends.

[oberliner]

95. Have you had a chance to look at the entire survey?

I've only seen bits and pieces of it since the original is in German, a language I do not know.

[LeftishBrit]

96. My German is not up to reading the survey, but here is a link to a detailed report:

www.uni-bielefeld.de/ikg/zick/Press%20release%2013Nov_english.pdf

[LeftishBrit]

97. Further details

It is interesting to see the various forms of xenophobia and bigotry.

About 25% of Europaeans thought that Jews have too much influence in their countries, and about 40% endorsed the somewhat more subtle accusation that Jews take advantage of having been victims of the Nazis. There were huge differences between countries, with rather few people endorsing such views in Britain or the Netherlands, and worrying *majorities* endorsing them in Poland and Hungary.

44.2% of Europaeans thought that there were too many Muslims in their countries, and 55.4% claimed that Muslims were 'too demanding'.

42% thought that homosexuality is immoral; again there were HUGE national variations. The Netherlands were particularly accepting of homosexuality, while Poland showed extremely high levels of homophobia.

31.3% thought there was a 'natural hierarchy' between black and white people.

About 60% thought that women should take their roles as wives and mothers more seriously, though only 17.5% explicitly endorsed job discrimination against women.

Although a majority responded positively to the question of whether immigrants enrich their culture (more than I'd have thought at nearly 70%), there was overall very strong anti-immigrant sentiment. 50.4% thought that there are too many immigrants in their countries, and 48% endorsed job discrimination against immigrants.

The UK was one of the less prejudiced countries on most indices, but one of the most prejudiced against immigrants (neither of these findings surprises me).

[TomClash]

90. In the US the most vociferous nonJewish defenders of Israeli policies are . . .

Right-wing Evangelical Christians. Draw your own conclusions.

[Ken Burch]

91. I can understand why people don't like THEM.

n/t.