Rooting for the Home Team

[harun]

Seems to me every discussion on Israeli/Palestinian affairs turns in to about as rational a discussion as a Green Bay Packer fan talking to a Minnesota Viking fan about the merits of his/her own team vs. the other. Meaning there is no real discussion.

I cede that the collective psyche of Jewish people is scarred from the holocaust and don't expect that to change. Nor do I think they should change that attitude, they didn't ask for it. They don't trust anyone else to look out for their interests and there is a good basis as to why they don't.

So every time someone says anything negative about Israel, Jewish people respond by thinking the person is advocating another genocide. Not conducive to a constructive conversation.

My questions would be, what do you guys think we can do to discuss these issues constructively? Is there any hope that in our lifetime Israel could stop thinking every one is out to get them, and could agree to established borders? What would it take to change that attitude?

[Ozymanithrax]

1. First, Bibi has to go...

That only happens if they go back to electing more leftist governments.

The siege mentality in Israel is the result of living for more than 60 years under what is perceived as a constant threat. It is what the Bush admin attempted, keeping the U.S. in constant fear. If it goes on long enough, the natural human need to achieve security on Maslow's hierarchy of needs will take a group of people and push them to do anything to be secure.

During the cold war, the U.S. promoted the belief in the eternal threat because Israel was perfect for proxy wars. The Soviets went along because Syria and others were their proxies. By the time the cold war ended, the middle east had woken up and wanted to quit being a gas tank for Europe. Fundamentalists took this feeling and it has led to this age of sacred terror. Israel was so deeply enmeshed in the paranoia they have not been able to break free. Yitzhak Rabin's assassination by a right wing religious zealot was probably the last straw. Unless you can get someone like him, and I'm not sure that is at all possible in this climate, there will be no change.

Most Muslims and most Israeli's want what we want, a relatively secure place where we can all go about our lives. Totalitarian Arab countries are happy to use Israel as the bad guy that keeps their own malcontents angry as someone else. Unless you have this transformative figure, nothing will change. Israeli's and Palestinians will continue tit for tat warfare for the foreseeable future.

[ColesCountyDem]

11. Bibi's just as bad the second time around as he was the first...

Bibi is awful and he AND Likud just need to go away; on that we can aqree.

It's interesting to me how anyone who defends either Israel or the Arabs or Palestinians is immediately branded as an 'extremist' of one or another stripe in this forum; rather a reflection of the whole Arab/Israeli problem, actually, isn't it?

[LakeSamish706]

2. From my perspective it would be to have any one of Jewish heritage to get over the

holocaust. Keep in mind that many great Americans and Canadians died in defense of the Jews, and many other peoples in the world. If Israel wants a country to blame for their wows, then look to Germany and no one else. At this moment in time, Israel is on the wrong side of any peace issue that might be on the horizon. I certainly do not concur with what Hamas is doing, but certainly don't agree with Israel either.

[aranthus]

3. With all respect,

before you tell Jews to get over the Holocaust, you might want to truly understand what it means. Which is this: it confirmed that the last 3,000 years of Jewish history was not a fluke. And with even greater respect to all those Americans, Canadians, British, Soviets, French, Poles and others who died defeating Nazi Germany, very few actually died specifically to save the Jews. And if Israel was looking for a country to blame for the war against it, it doesn't, and doesn't have to, look as far as Germany. The culprits are right across the the border in Syria and Lebanon, or a relative stone's throw away in Iraq and Iran.

You say that you don't concur with Hamas. That's good. I hope that is because you realize that the democratically elected Hamas government of Gaza is at war with Israel because Hamas seeks Israel's destruction. You say you don't agree with Israel either. That's fine, but what is it that you think Israel stands for with which you don't agree?

[LakeSamish706]

5. I don't agree with the killings of innocent people on the high seas by Israeli thugs

that identify themselves as IDF Commandos. Israel needs to take stock of their military personnel, and be totally responsible for there actions. If Netennuttsy believes that what his Navy people have done (in his name) is good, then he needs to be tried for war crimes, plain and simple.

[aranthus]

6. Let's be clear.

I'm critical of how this was handled. I certainly didn't want anyone to die or be injured. Israel made mistakes. However, that's a very different critique from those with an anti-Israel agenda who are saying that the Israelis intentionally murdered humanitarian aid workers. That's a very different critique from the pro-Hamas flunkies who are using this (as intended) as a wedge to attack the blockade. Obviously, there should be an investigation. But it's way too early to talk about war crimes.

Is it a coincidence that the Israelis apparently used the same tactics on the other five ships without incident? I think not. I think that there were people on board the Marvi Mara that wanted to create an incident, and they did. Did they intend to get people killed? I don't know, but I think they created the situation that got people killed. That doesn't excuse Israel or any of the individuals involved. But hopefully, people will get some perspective.

[FBI_Un_Sub]

15. Blockade

I think that the enforcement of the blockade -- as it was actually carried out -- was a humanitarian and political and pr disaster, and calls Netanyahu's judgement into serious question.

BUT
I also think that it was in compliance with international law, viz

• San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994, International Committee of the Red Cross
  
  
• Declaration concerning the Laws of Naval War, 208 Consol. T.S. 338 (1909)

[BootinUp]

13. P.U. nt

[aranthus]

4. Well for starters

the Arab world could make a serious attempt to not be "out to get them." Outsiders could recognize that the Israelis aren't totally paranoid; that they live in a very rough and dangerous part of the world, with neighbors who would take them out if they could. I've already posted that the Holocaust is evidence that the last 3,000 years of Jewish history was not a fluke. The last 60 years of Israeli history is pretty good evidence of that as well.

[ColesCountyDem]

7. Getting rid of the "Israel bad, Palestinians poor and opressed" mindset would help a lot....

People seem to overlook the fact that the Palestinians backed the massed Arab armies on four... separate... occasions. That's not an insignificant matter, yet far too many people here just blithely omit or refuse to acknowledge it when discussing anything to do with Arab/Palestinian/Israeli relations.

It is not helpful at all to willfully refuse to deal with historical fact.

[IndianaGreen]

8. Packer fans don't go around murdering Viking fans or viceversa

The time for dialogue is long past.

[aranthus]

9. Then what do you suggest? n/t

[ColesCountyDem]

10. Then might makes right?

If they can't talk to each other, then the winner is already known. 'Might makes right' has its place, but it hardly provides much prospect for peace.

[EFerrari]

12. I think cities all over the world need to adopt cities in Israel

and in the Palestinian territories and do intensive cultural exchanges. Go around the political noise machines altogether. Focus on problems all of us have -- education for our children, becoming energy independent, eating more healthy on the recources we have.

Supporting those cities and engaging them in smaller, more manageable problems to develop the habit of communication and safe interaction. And then, doing that some more.

If someone has suffered a trauma, you don't yell at them to get better. You support them as kindly as possible and help them set about doing small, safe normal things, a little bit at a time.

[Mosby]

14. there is very little real discussion

Because the two sides can't even agree on the facts surrounding the conflict.

I'm not sure the israelis lack trust due to the holocaust its more due to the widespread antisemitism in the ME - polls show it as high as 99 percent in egypt for example. Also israel recieves a great deal of attention in the media, much more than one might expect based on its size. I know some people might disagree but evidence abounds, for example did you know there is a blockade in yemen right now that might result in people starving? Haven't seen one thread about it on DU.

[EFerrari]

16. Negotiation usually doesn't advance by trying to agree on facts.

It advances when common goals are the focus.

[aranthus]

17. Yes and no.

Where the two sides goals are diametrically opposed due to their belief in contradictory facts, there is little chance that they can focus on common goals. It's especially hard when the goal of one side is to destroy the other.

[EFerrari]

18. Except you can always find common goals-- like existence

and future prosperity. Interpreting facts causes a meltdown between two polarized parties where goals involve relaxing of a defensive mindset to pursue those goals.