Israeli diplomats 'hazed' on campus

[ensho]

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/americas/2010/02/11/israeli-diplomats-hazed-campus


The Israelis have a lot of experience dealing with asymmetrical warfare. But they're not exactly used to its latest manifestation, which could be coming to a college campus near you.

Committed activists let their frustrations be heard on Monday in two separate lectures delivered by senior Israeli diplomats.

While the videos go viral among students, its watching the tactics used at these events that must be leaving Israel unnerved.

Consider the way in which a mockery was made of Israel's Ambassador to the U.S. Michael Oren, who presented at the University of California at Irvine.

-video-

The New York-born former academic had nary a minute to get into his talking points when he himself was taken to school by angry students, at least one of whom shouted "propagating murder is not an expression of free speech!"

The heckling made it impossible for Oren to carry on, and persisted in spite of pleas and threats by audience members and promises of arrest by the rattled college rector.

-snip-

It's a phenomena that seems to have caught the Israelis off guard. When Oren's appeal for Middle East-like hospitality failed, Oren jousted: "This is not London or Tehran!"

He must have been clairvoyant. Across the Pond at Oxford Union on that same day, it was not exactly going swimmingly for Deputy Foreign Minister Dann Ayalon, trying also to lay down a rote defense of Israel.

Students there also used timed interruptions, and apparently racist invectives, to upset their Israeli guest.
-snip-
-----------------------------


and


http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=118327§ionid=3510203


Students arrested in LA for heckling Israeli envoy


At least eleven students have been arrested over their interruption of a lecture by the Israeli ambassador to the US at the University of California, Irvine.

Michael Oren was invited to the university by the Jewish Federation of Orange County to speak about Israeli views on the status of the Middle East and Tel Aviv's relationship with Washington.

However as the ambassador was addressing the crowded auditorium, he was interrupted for at least ten times by anti-Israeli students.

"Michael Oren, propagating murder is not an expression of free speech," the first of the ten students yelled before being led away by university police.

The remainder of Oren's speech was drowned by similar remarks, with some students shouting "killer" and "how many Palestinians did you kill?"

By the end of the night, 11 students were arrested and cited for disturbing a public event.

They could face misdemeanor charges as well as university disciplinary hearings that could result in suspensions or dismissals, Cathy Lawhon, Media Relations Director at the UC-Irvine campus said.

The University's Muslim Union was not available for contact but it did issue a statement prior to the event, saying that it strongly opposed and condemned the ambassador's visit, a Press TV correspondent reported from Los Angeles.
-snip-
------------------------------


the status quo seems to be changing worldwide on this subject

[notadmblnd]

1. I suspect that people are tired of the same old accusations-

that anyone who doesn't support Israeli policies, is a Jew hater; which has been Israel's supporters main tool in shutting down dialog.

[Christa]

2. You can say that agin. nt

[Green_Lantern]

3. disagreeing with Israeli policy is one thing..

But this guy was protested because he's Israeli and they are judging guilt by association. They didn't even let him talk to determine if he supported the policies they disagree with.

[Violet_Crumble]

4. No, that guy wasn't protested because he's Israeli...

It's because he's a representative of the Israeli government. Huge difference...

[Green_Lantern]

5. well they didn't know if he even supported the policies they

Dislike. So he was a proxy for the Israeli policies.

[Violet_Crumble]

6. Of course people know that he's the Israeli ambassador and supporter of the govts policies...

He's been madly attacking J-Street, and making it very clear where his support lies. They were protesting against a representative of a very RW govt, which is very different than protesting against someone just because of their nationality...

[Green_Lantern]

7. borders on anti-semitism...

The LA Times story said:

Elcott and others blamed the university’s Muslim Student Union for the disruptions. A statement posted on that group’s website Monday condemned the university for inviting a man who “took part in a culture that has no qualms with terrorizing the innocent, killing civilians, demolishing their homes and illegally occupying their land.”

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/02/11-students-arrested-for-disrupting-israeli-ambassadors-speech-at-uc-irvine-.html


They didn't blame him for being just a part of govt. but for taking part in Jewish-Israeli culture. Don't all Israelis take part?

[azurnoir]

8. LOL

They didn't blame him for being just a part of govt. but for taking part in Jewish-Israeli culture. Don't all Israelis take part?

Did you know that there are non-Jewish Israelis?

[Green_Lantern]

10. yes and your point?

Arabs in Israel are still part of Israeli society actually you made my point for me...if he was an Arab-Israeli would they make that culture comment.

[MUAD_DIB]

13. No racism in your posts either...

They're Palestinians in Palestinian areas but Arabs on Israeli territory?

[Green_Lantern]

14. that's their own designation...

Arab citizens of Israel aren't all Palestinian so why would I call them Palestinian? Arab encompasses anyone of Arab descent. Why is that racist?

[MUAD_DIB]

20. Why not just call them darkies?

:sarcasm:

Let's be realistic the Israelis don't call anybody a Palestinian inside their borders.

Why would calling a African American a n... be considered racist either? It's just a word, right?


:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

[Kurska]

22. You are aware that there are Iraqis, Syrians, Lebanese and other non palestinian arabs living in

Israel right?

No apparently not, you're too busy making wild accusations and slamming the sarcasm button as hard as you can.

[MUAD_DIB]

26. What do they call Palestinians living in Israel?

These aren't wild accusations. But please keep the whining up.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. The terminology issue...

This is from a paper on Israeli Arabs from the International Crisis Group and it explains the different terms. fwiw, Green Lantern's rather special terminology isn't included, and I found it telling that they so easily confuse Jewish and Israeli culture as though non-Jews are totally invisible, and referred to Israeli Arabs as being 'Arabs living in Israel'. I wonder if Green Lantern ever refers to Israeli Jews as 'Jews living in Israel'?

'The issue of terminology relating to this subject is sensitive and at least partially a reflection of political preferences. Most Israeli official documents refer to the Israeli Arab community as "minorities". The Israeli National Security Council (NSC) has used the term "Arab citizens of Israel". Virtually all political parties, movements and non-governmental organisations from within the Arab community use the word "Palestinian" somewhere in their description – at times failing to make any reference to Israel. For consistency of reference and without prejudice to the position of either side, ICG will use both Arab Israeli and terms the community commonly uses to describe itself, such as Palestinian citizens of Israel or Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel.'

http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=2528

[Kurska]

73. I would call them Israeli citizens. n/t

[Green_Lantern]

29. you equate Palestinian as a racial slur?

nt

[MUAD_DIB]

35. No. When they are called Arabs I do. It is a great way of marginalizing them.

[Green_Lantern]

36. I wasn't using it as a slur...

It's not a slur.

[Green_Lantern]

38. why? They call themselves

Israeli Arabs....

[MUAD_DIB]

40. If Israel had never been what would they call themselves?

Palestinians. Spare me the semantics on Semites.

[Green_Lantern]

43. no not all Arabs in Israel are of Palestinian descent...

They come from various Arab nations.

[MUAD_DIB]

47. Semantics...

That's like saying the Palestinian lands that the Israeli settlers have annexed is debatable as to ownership.


Nice try...

[Green_Lantern]

48. no its not...

Palestinians are Arabs...its not an opinion its a fact.

[MUAD_DIB]

53. Wrong. It is a derogatory term used to marginalize the Palestinians.

If they're just Arabs then they don't have any claim to Israeli land.


Again, nice try...

[Green_Lantern]

55. well that's not how I meant it..

Anyway I never said they were "just Arabs". The international community considers them Arab-Israelis. If I called them Israelis you'd say I was denying their culture. No pleasing some people.

[MUAD_DIB]

56. The international community doesn't give a shit about them.

If the roles were reversed then I have no doubt that they would.

[Green_Lantern]

58. other Arab nations do pretend..

To care about Palestinians. Arab citizens Israel have it better there than in other Arab countries, especially women.

[MUAD_DIB]

59. I really don't care about the comparison. Using the "well they're treated better here

but are still second class citizens" doesn't fly with me.

[Green_Lantern]

61. how are Arab citizens of Israel treated as 2nd class citizens..

What rights are they denied?

[MUAD_DIB]

63. For starters... Right of return.

[Green_Lantern]

64. return where?

Arab citizens of Israel are already there...The ones who want to return aren't citizens of Israel.

[MUAD_DIB]

65. Thanks or the sophistry. Good luck with the purging of the

Israeli territories of their former inhabitants.

:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:
:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

You couldn't defend the one argument (right of return) that Israel is most set against. Those Palestinians that wanted to return had to leave...but they're not Israeli so bla, bla, bla..

Seriously, your kind of mindset is why Israel gets more isolated by the day.

1) They can do no wrong.

2) Everybody is against them.

3) Anybody that criticizes them is an anti-Semite.

4) Palestinians are just Arabs.


Just face it. Israel wants the Palestinians to just go away; just like Europe wanted them to. Two wrongs not making a right and all...

Good luck with your sophistry.

[Green_Lantern]

66. I never said any of that....

I support a Palestinian state and don't want to just make Palestinians go away. Try staying on subject.

[MUAD_DIB]

67. I got your number, sparky. Nice try.

[Green_Lantern]

69. on that note....

good night

[Douglas Carpenter]

68. well there is a fair amount of data available on that subject

"Only 3.4% of the 500 Arab citizens of Israel polled by phone felt that the Israeli government treats them as equal citizens. Some 49% said the government treats them as second-class citizens and 24% as hostile citizens who don't deserve equal rights."
according to a poll in the Jerusalem Post

Just taking a look at common Israeli-Jewish attitudes toward Palestinian citizens of Israel can look a bit disturbing:

"The poll showed that 75 percent of Jewish students believe that Arabs are uneducated people, are uncivilized and are unclean.

On the other hand 25 percent of the Arab youth believe that Jews are the uneducated ones, while 57 percent of the Arab's believe Jews are unclean." link:

http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3350467,00.html

The poll showed that 68 percent of respondents said they do not wish to live next to an Arab neighbor, compared with 26 percent who said they would agree. Responding to a question about Arab friends, 46 percent said they would not be willing to have Arab friends who would visit them at their home. Some 63 percent of the Jewish public sees Arab civilians as a security and demographic threat.." link: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3231048,00.html

---------------------


Of the two books that I have read on the subject, perhaps the most interesting was Susan Nathan's, "The Other Side of Israel: My Journey Across the Jewish/Arab Divide". It is the personal story of an Israeli Jewish English teacher and lifelong committed Zionist who moved into and still lives in the northern Galilee small Israeli-Arab city of Tamra as the only Jew among 25,000 Palestinian-Muslim Israeli citizens. Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/Other-Side-Israel-Journey-Across/dp/0385514565?SubscriptionId=0TBPMRS0W3G0CB5F0902&tag=afncaie-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=0385514565

And " Blood and Religion: The Unmasking of the Jewish and Democratic State by Jonathan Cook". Mr. Cook is a British reporter based in Nazareth and married to a Palestinian-Christian who is an Israeli Citizen. Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Religion-Unmasking-Jewish-Democratic/dp/0745325556?SubscriptionId=0TBPMRS0W3G0CB5F0902&tag=afncaie-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=0745325556

=============================

and this from Wiki:

Discrimination
See also: Anti-Arabism in Israel

While formally equal according to Israeli law, a number of official sources acknowledge that Arab citizens of Israel experience discrimination in many aspects of life. Israeli High Court Justice (Ret.) Theodor Or wrote in The Report by the State Commission of Inquiry into the Events of October 2000:

The Arab citizens of Israel live in a reality in which they experience discrimination as Arabs. This inequality has been documented in a large number of professional surveys and studies, has been confirmed in court judgments and government resolutions, and has also found expression in reports by the state comptroller and in other official documents. Although the Jewish majority’s awareness of this discrimination is often quite low, it plays a central role in the sensibilities and attitudes of Arab citizens. This discrimination is widely accepted, both within the Arab sector and outside it, and by official assessments, as a chief cause of agitation.<188>

The Or Commission report also claims that activities by Islamic organizations may be using religious pretenses to further political aims. The commission describes such actions as a factor in 'inflaming' the Muslim population in Israel against the authorities, and cites the al-Sarafand mosque episode, with Muslims' attempts to restore the mosque and Jewish attempts to stop them, as an example of the 'shifting of dynamics' of the relationship between Muslims and the Israeli authorities.

According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, the Israeli government had done "little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens."<178>

The 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices<178> notes that:

"Approximately 93 percent of land in the country was public domain, including that owned by the state and some 12.5 percent owned by the Jewish National Fund (JNF). All public land by law may only be leased, not sold. The JNF's statutes prohibit the sale or lease of land to non-Jews. In October, civil rights groups petitioned the High Court of Justice claiming that a bid announcement by the Israel Land Administration (ILA) involving JNF land was discriminatory in that it banned Arabs from bidding."
"Israeli-Arab advocacy organizations have challenged the Government's policy of demolishing illegal buildings in the Arab sector, and claimed that the Government was more restrictive in issuing building permits in Arab communities than in Jewish communities, thereby not accommodating natural growth."
"In June, the Supreme Court ruled that omitting Arab towns from specific government social and economic plans is discriminatory. This judgment builds on previous assessments of disadvantages suffered by Arab Israelis."
"Israeli-Arab organizations have challenged as discriminatory the 1996 "Master Plan for the Northern Areas of Israel," which listed as priority goals increasing the Galilee's Jewish population and blocking the territorial contiguity of Arab towns."
"Israeli Arabs were not required to perform mandatory military service and, in practice, only a small percentage of Israeli Arabs served in the military. Those who did not serve in the army had less access than other citizens to social and economic benefits for which military service was a prerequisite or an advantage, such as housing, new-household subsidies, and employment, especially government or security-related industrial employment. The Ivri Committee on National Service has issued official recommendations to the Government that Israel Arabs not be compelled to perform national or "civic" service, but be afforded an opportunity to perform such service".
"According to a 2003 Haifa University study, a tendency existed to impose heavier prison terms to Arab citizens than to Jewish citizens. Human rights advocates claimed that Arab citizens were more likely to be convicted of murder and to have been denied bail."
"The Orr Commission of Inquiry's report <...> stated that the 'Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory,' that the Government 'did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action to allocate state resources in an equal manner.' As a result, 'serious distress prevailed in the Arab sector in various areas. Evidence of distress included poverty, unemployment, a shortage of land, serious problems in the education system, and substantially defective infrastructure.'"
The 2007 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices<189> notes that:

"According to a 2005 study at Hebrew University, three times more money was invested in education of Jewish children as in Arab children."
Human Rights Watch has charged that cuts in veteran benefits and child allowances based on parents' military service discriminate against Arab children: "The cuts will also affect the children of Jewish ultra-orthodox parents who do not serve in the military, but they are eligible for extra subsidies, including educational supplements, not available to Palestinian Arab children."<190>

According to The Guardian, in 2006 just 5% of civil servants were Arabs, many of them hired to deal with other Arabs, despite the fact that Arab citizens of Israel comprise 20% of the population.<172>

Although the Bedouin infant mortality rate is still the highest in Israel, and one of the highest in the developed world, The Guardian reports that in the 2002 budget, Israel's health ministry allocated Arab communities less than 0.6% of its budget for healthcare facility development.<172>

Property ownership and housing
The Israel Land Administration, which administers 93% of the land in Israel (including the land owned by the Jewish National Fund), refuses to lease land to non-Jewish foreign nationals, which includes Palestinian residents of Jerusalem who have identity cards but are not citizens of Israel. When ILA land is "bought" in Israel it is actually leased to the "owner" for a period of 49 years. According to Article 19 of the ILA lease, foreign nationals are excluded from leasing ILA land, and in practice foreigners may just show that they qualify as Jewish under the Law of Return.<191>

Israeli law also discriminates between Jews and Arabs regarding rights to recover property owned before the dislocations created by the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.<11> The 1950 Absentees Property Law stipulated that any property within post-war Israel which was owned by an Arab who had left the country between November 29, 1947 and May 19, 1948, or by a Palestinian who had merely been abroad or in area of Palestine held by hostile forces up to September 1, 1948, lost all rights to that property. Palestinians who fled or were expelled from their homes by Jewish or Israeli forces, before and during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, but remained within the borders of what would become Israel, that is, those currently known as Arab citizens of Israel, are deemed present absentees by the legislation. Present absentees are regarded as absent by the Israeli government because they left their homes, even if they did not intend to leave them for more than a few days, and even if they did so involuntarily.<192>

Following the 1967 Six Day War in which Israel occupied the West Bank, from where it annexed East Jerusalem, Israel then passed in 1970 the Law and Administration Arrangements Law allowing for Jews who had lost property in East Jerusalem and the West Bank during the 1948 war to reclaim it.<12> Palestinian residents of Jerusalem (absentees) in the same positions, and Arab Israelis (present absentees), who owned property in West Jerusalem or other areas within the state of Israel, and lost it as a result of the 1948 war, cannot recover their properties. Israeli legislation, therefore, allows Jews to recover their land, but not Arabs.<13>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Discrimination

[MUAD_DIB]

74. Thanks for the historical content.

[azurnoir]

15. you already made your point

the clean up is weak at beat

[Green_Lantern]

16. the point is they don't just disagree with govt policy..

They(protest organizers) despise Israeli society.

[azurnoir]

18. They despise the Israeli occupation of the West Bank

and the blockade/siege of Gaza

[Green_Lantern]

19. they despise everything Israel does...

As they said...its the Israeli "culture".

[azurnoir]

21. Here is what was said from YOUR quote

A statement posted on that group’s website Monday condemned the university for inviting a man who “took part in a culture that has no qualms with terrorizing the innocent, killing civilians, demolishing their homes and illegally occupying their land.”

they do not say Israeli culture as such they say A culture unless of course it your contention that the occupation of the West Bank and the siege/blockade of Gaza and all that goes with it is part and parcel to Israeli culture

[Green_Lantern]

30. if it walks like a duck...

Jews know anti-semitism when they see it.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Great. Just what this forum needs. Another mind-reader...

Being opposed to the occupation does not mean people despise everything Israel does, and the people yr flinging wild accusations at haven't done anything but criticise the occupation.

Also, yr totally incorrect. They did NOT say it's Israeli culture, though I notice you've shifted from yr earlier claim that they said it was Jewish culture to this new one where it's Israeli culture.

[Green_Lantern]

31. well I doubt they blame Arabs in Israel for the occupation...

nt

[Violet_Crumble]

51. Why do you think someone has to either blame Arabs or Jews?

That makes absolutely no sense at all, and just seems to be an attempt by you to justify why it's okay to claim people said something they didn't say at all....

[Green_Lantern]

57. because in this conflict...

Most of the ideologues either blame Jews or Arabs. Half these protesters are probably just naive college kids involved in some fad demonstration and do nothing towards Middle East peace besides protesting.

[Violet_Crumble]

76. That makes you an idealogue too then?

Rational people who don't indulge in bigotry don't blame either Jews or Arabs. Also, given the way you falsely claimed the protesters had said something they hadn't, I don't know what you classify as an *idealogue* and also don't know how you can be so all-knowing that you know the probable reasons for most protesters attending the protest...

[Green_Lantern]

102. no I'm not an ideologue on Israel....

I support a rational approach to Middle East peace where both sides get a state and leave each other alone. I don't think either side should get everything it wants.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. No, it doesn't. What you posted said zero about Jewish culture...

Do you think the only culture there is is *Jewish* culture? Because what you posted didn't refer to Jewish culture at all.

[Green_Lantern]

32. no but I doubt anti-semites are inclusive in their views

Of Israeli society. They view Jews as some alien body stealing their land.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. Now yr accusing these protesters of being antisemitic?

So let me get this straight. You originally claimed that you do support protests against the Israeli govt, but when pressed, you pretend that no-one knows who Oren is, that they're only protesting him because he's an Israeli, and then go on to make a totally incorrect claim that the protesters referred to Jewish culture, when what you linked to did nothing of the sort.

Instead of making wild and nasty accusations, wouldn't it be better for you to learn a bit more about culture and what it's used to define? Anyone who thinks there's only two cultures in Israel - Arab and Jew really is thinking very simplistically. Culture is used to describe many things, one major one that comes straight to mind being a military culture. Wherever there's any group that has shared values, that's a culture. So please stop pretending the protesters said something they didn't, and then go on to call them antisemites based on what you created for them to say...

[Green_Lantern]

50. no, not every protester...

Just the organizers who believe Oren “took part in a culture that has no qualms with terrorizing the innocent, killing civilians, demolishing their homes and illegally occupying their land.” They aren't distinguishing this as just a policy of a right-wing govt., this is against Israel itself.

[Violet_Crumble]

52. Um, I also believe that. Oren's a supporter of all that...

And at a guess I'd say many people who are opposed to the occupation would agree with. It's not just a RW Israeli govt who's done that, it's been successive Israeli govts.

[Green_Lantern]

60. yes exactly the point...

They believe Israel itself is built on that culture. I wonder if they criticize Iranian policies....

[Violet_Crumble]

77. And the problem with that is?

I thought you claimed that you have no issue with people criticising Israel. You appear to have all sorts of issues with it from yr posts in this thread...

Why would someone who doesn't criticise Israeli policy towards the Palestinians be wondering what other people criticise? Are we about to embark on a wondeful journey of Look Over There!!!!

[Green_Lantern]

103. no I said I have no problem with people disagreeing

With certain Israeli policies but I don't think any meaningful peace can be achieved if the starting point is wanting Israel to not exist or Palestinians denied a state.

[Behind the Aegis]

9. Pathetic behavior on their part.

[Green_Lantern]

11. these students are as crazy as

Tea party activists yelling and screaming.

[Behind the Aegis]

12. Yes, they are.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. Just because people protest against a regime you appear to support doesn't make them crazy...

Or do you think any sort of protest at all makes those protesting as crazy as tea party twits?

[Green_Lantern]

33. the protest isn't what makes them crazy...

It's the yelling and screaming and shouting people down that makes them crazy.

[stranger81]

39. yelling, screaming & shouting = crazy

bombing, killing, dehumanizing = not crazy?

I'd say its the people these students were yelling about who are crazy. A little yelling is probably the kindest thing the Israeli ambassador deserved that day.

[Green_Lantern]

42. yeah Israel defending itself is sure crazy...

:sarcasm:

[stranger81]

70. You might want to consult a dictionary on the difference between "defense" and "offense."

It's undoubtedly news to the Israelis, but there is, in fact, a salient difference.

[Green_Lantern]

72. Israel's problem is that it's response can be too

Disproportionate. But it is only when attacked first.

[Green_Lantern]

44. bombing and murder is crazy I agree...

That's why I don't like Hamas. But I support self defense.

[Violet_Crumble]

54. So when Israel bombs and murders it's 'self-defence'.?

No wonder yr so quick to label opposition to what Israel does as antisemitism....

[Green_Lantern]

62. no, not always...

It really depends on the situation you're talking about. I'm not going to make a statement labeling any bombing by a military to be a murderous act. I certainly didn't say Israel can do whatever it wants.

[Violet_Crumble]

78. Let's be really clear here. The situation is Gaza...

The blockade's not self-defence. OCL wasn't self defence...

I'm not going to make a statement labeling any bombing by a military to be a murderous act.

Uh-huh. I suppose war-crime is totally out the question then?

[stranger81]

104. Right. During OCL, for every 1 Israeli killed, the IDF killed 100 Palestinians.

Yet the only comment you would have about the death toll in OCL is about the 13 Israelis who died, not the 1400+ Palestinians. If you really opposed death and destruction, you'd be singing a different tune.

[Green_Lantern]

107. I'd have to be crazy not to hate death and destruction..

But when Israel gets attacked by Hamas what should they do?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

28. As angry, very probably yes; as stupid, no - these guys have good cause to be angry.

Anyone who isn't furiously angry at Israel's treatment of the Palestinians has a dubious moral compass at best.

[Green_Lantern]

34. I sympathized with Palestinians until Israel pulled out of...

Gaza and the Palestinians voted overwhelmingly for Hamas.

[Douglas Carpenter]

37. actually Hamas won 44% of the total vote versus 41% for Fatah

The complications of their system resulted in them getting a significantly higher number of seats due to how the vote was distributed:

http://www.ifes.org/features.html?title=How%20Hamas%20Won%20the%20Majority

Current polls show Hamas would lose to Fatah by a wide margin in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and in Gaza:

The poll also shows Fatah would beat Hamas by a solid 10 percentage points in both the West Bank and Gaza, if Palestinians were to vote in parliamentary elections today. While Fatah's popularity was much higher than Hamas's in the West Bank, by a 45-28% margin, Fatah was still able to edge Hamas by 3% in Gaza, where 33% of those polled said they favored Fatah, compared to 30% for Hamas.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=593

Furthermore, Sharon has repeatedly said the withdrawal would help consolidate Israel's control over large settlement blocs in the West Bank

Officials: Robust Growth in W. Bank Settlements


Friday, August 26, 2005

JERUSALEM — An Israeli government official said Friday the population in its West Bank settlements has grown by more than 12,000 in the past year, reinforcing Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's goal of strengthening large settlement blocs while withdrawing from the Gaza Strip.

Sharon has repeatedly said the withdrawal would help consolidate Israel's control over large settlement blocs in the West Bank, where the vast majority of Jewish settlers live. New figures from the Interior Ministry show robust growth in these blocs.

Gilad Heiman, a ministry spokesman, said the settler population in the West Bank grew to about 246,000 in June, an increase of 12,800, or 5 percent, over the previous year.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,167143,00.html

and the West Bank settlement expansion continued and continud along with the Gaza pull-out:

In West Bank, Israel Sees Room to Grow
Government Moves Swiftly to Capitalize On Pullout From Gaza Despite Criticism

By Scott Wilson
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, August 28, 2005

MAALE ADUMIM, West Bank -- In the tan hills a few miles east of Jerusalem, construction cranes dangle over a string of red-roofed neighborhoods that make up the largest Jewish settlement in the West Bank. It is here that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is reengaging with his electoral base following Israel's efficient but divisive exit from the Gaza Strip.

Enjoying a moment of international sympathy, Sharon's government is moving swiftly to capitalize on its unilateral withdrawal and ongoing demolition of 25 Jewish settlements. The government's efforts are focused largely in the West Bank, land of far more religious and strategic importance to Israel than the remote slice of coastline it has left behind.

A little more than 31,000 Israelis live in Maale Adumim, a suburban settlement built on land captured by Israel in the 1967 Middle East war. Israeli officials say it will grow to more than 50,000 people and eventually touch the edge of East Jerusalem, even though the U.S. government and Palestinian leaders have said that such growth would severely complicate efforts to establish a viable Palestinian state.

Last week, as the world watched settlers being hauled from their homes in Gaza, government officials ordered the confiscation of 400 acres of West Bank land for a barrier that will separate Maale Adumim from Palestinian-populated territory. Just east of the main settlement, where construction plans had been frozen because of U.S. opposition, Israel will soon break ground on a new police headquarters serving the entire West Bank.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/27/AR2005082701113_pf.html

Israel approves new West Bank settlement - Africa & Middle East - International Herald Tribune
By Steven Erlanger
Published: Wednesday, December 27, 2006

JERUSALEM — Israel has approved the construction of a new settlement in the occupied West Bank for the first time in a decade, according to the Israeli Defense Ministry and settler groups speaking Tuesday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/26/world/africa/26iht-mideast.4024302.html

[Green_Lantern]

41. as far as the election....

Hamas ended up with 74 seats to Fatah's 45 seats so that means Hamas had to come out ahead in every district, not just a single "national election."



As far as your West Bank settlement story, that took place in Dec. of '06 and the Palestinian elections were in Jan. of '06. The West Bank settlement expansion was a hard line response to Hamas' takeover.

[Douglas Carpenter]

45. as the article of August 26, 2005 posted above from Associated Press points out

Sharon has repeatedly said the withdrawal would help consolidate Israel's control over large settlement blocs in the West Bank, where the vast majority of Jewish settlers live. New figures from the Interior Ministry show robust growth in these blocs
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,167143,00.html

Sharon repeatedly justified the withdraw to his own constituency on that basis prior to it even happening. The same article goes into significant detail about how settlement expansion was being increased significantly as the withdraw was underway.

Yes it is true that Hamas ended up with a lot more seats, but the actual total vote for Hamas was far from overwhelming.

If we are going to lose all sympathy for a people based on how one election turned out, then we have to look at the most recent election result in Israel as well.

[Green_Lantern]

46. well I looked back at what I said....

And it was worse than what I meant to say. I meant I really used to be more naive about the Palestinians thinking they were all basically hostages to Hamas but now I realize Hamas has a great deal of support among the populace.

I still sympathize with the Palestinians caught in the middle of this.

[pelsar]

75. please please be accurate....

you keep pushing this concept that the gaza pull out somehow was offset by this "consolidation in the westbank..

this is from your article of AUGUST

srael this week completed the evacuation of all 21 Jewish settlements in Gaza (search) and four isolated enclaves in the West Bank. About 9,000 settlers were removed from their homes.

Sharon has repeatedly said the withdrawal would help consolidate Israel's control over large settlement blocs in the West Bank, where the vast majority of Jewish settlers live. New figures from the Interior Ministry show robust growth in these blocs.

Gilad Heiman, a ministry spokesman, said the settler population in the West Bank grew to about 246,000 in JUNE, an increase of 12,800, or 5 percent, over the previous year.


did you notice the dates: the increase was BEFORE the withdrawal and in fact had nothing to do with it...there has also been an increase in settlers AFTER the withdrawal as well.There was also an increase in the settlers the year previous to the withdrawl and has been years after as well
-----

face it, there was no sudden increase because of the withdrawal was there? the only consolidation that sharon was talking about was the israeli attitude towards the settlements, that was the only actual difference between pre and post gaza.
-----------
i get it that you want to make it clear that israel leaving gaza, uprooting 9000 israelis from their homes, means nothing, and that works as long as your audience has a political bent to place every failure on the middle east to be israels responsibility, and of course you have to pretend it means nothing since the mantra has always been the israel as the more powerful has to do something "to break the cycle".....to show its serious.....leaving gaza could have been, but hamas, a Palestinian political group had other plans and they succeeded. But it doesn't take away from what israel did.

and it has nothing to do with the westbank

[Violet_Crumble]

79. Do you agree with what Green Lantern said?

About it being okay to lose all sympathy for a population based on who they voted for?

[pelsar]

87. no.not at all

the whole concept of voting is that its temporary...we vote in people based on emotion, promises, being gullible, logic, belief etc. And when these guys get into power, many times for their first time, they learn the job isn't what they thought it would be (hamas has been learning this..and so too has obama). Israel goes right or left in its voting, and each time its based on the economic, security (how many bombs have gone off within israel before the election....) and maybe a scandle or two, so too would the gazans if they ever get a chance to vote. That in fact is my problem with hamas, not so much their "platform" but that they wont let themselves get "voted out of office"...

last poll in gaza (israeli tv reported) gave them something like over 65% want peace with israel.....

i have nothing but sympathy for the gazans...they have been screwed royally, by israel, by the egyptians, the iranians (feeding them weapons), the UN and most of all, by their own corrupt leadership, the PA and Hamas.

[Green_Lantern]

105. actually I agree with what you said....

The problem is leadership on both sides. Unfortunately we spent 8 years twiddling our thumbs.

[Douglas Carpenter]

81. The Gaza withdraw was justified by Mr. Sharon to his constituency on the basis that it would help

consolidate their situation in the West Bank. One only needs to read the article to get the point. The two article below it document expansion following the withdraw. Green Lantern mentions the two articles that document the settlement expansion that happened after the withdraw. You mention the the article that documents settlement expansion in preparation before the withdraw. Mr. Sharon repeatedly justified the withdraw on the basis that it would help consolidate their their position in the West Bank.

[bemildred]

82. The Government also made a lot of noise about how unilateral the withdrawal was.

How there was no deal and no quid pro quo. And I have - for that reason - found all of the subsequent whining about how they got nothing for it and the Palestinians were ungrateful wretches to be so much wind. They pretty much insisted on getting nothing for it. If they had negotiated a deal and that deal was then violated, I would have felt there was some point to complaining about that, but as it is, they were owed nothing and that is what they got.

[Douglas Carpenter]

83. well yes Sharon certainly made much of how unilateral the agreement was and how much it would

strengthen their hold on the West Bank. Those were his two main selling points to his constituency.

[bemildred]

84. Hey Doug!

:hi:

I think at the time they were worried about "deterrence", not letting it look like anybody might have made them leave, which is a bit ridiculous really, they left because it was in their interest to leave, and the Palestinians were not in a position to make them do anything. The Palestinians can annoy the heck out of them and make things expensive for them, but they cannot compel them to do anything. But I'm Ok with that, I just think that to then start complaining because the Palestinians didn't lay down their arms out of gratitude is a bit incoherent. I suppose it goes back to the fear of looking weak which seems to infect the Israeli political classes. As an American, it's a problem I am much familiar with, I just wish they would worry about looking foolish once in a while.

I do think they would have done better to negotiate a deal for leaving, done right they might even have kept Fatah in charge of Gaza or accomplished various other things. As it is it's made a small and unobtrusive mess into a giant mess that gets global attention. Of course the "Gaza War" played a part in that outcome too. Now it's just going to sit there and bleed all over the floor (sorry to be graphic) perpetually.

[pelsar]

90. and hamas would have "canned their plans"...

I do think they would have done better to negotiate a deal for leaving, done right they might even have kept Fatah in charge of Gaza

Hamas would have taken over anyway...their plan was well in place, with motivated and rather ruthless followers....and that would have made any public negotiated deal irrelevant anyway...

i dont complain about the gazans, i just find that since gaza has been a massive failure, and the mantra of:

israel as the stronger one, has to do something big, something to break the cycle, etc etc etc has been shown to not produce the hoped for results, somehow its israels fault for "not doing it right" to be ridiculous

gosh, we so sorry, perhaps if we said "please a bit more,...or we so sorry"..maybe they wouldnt have been so insulted by us leaving so abruptly and would have refrained from trying to kill us-for years afterwards.
------

[bemildred]

100. Yes, I know you prefer to stick to the straw men and self-pity, so much more satisfying. nt

[pelsar]

89. of course it was self interest...that what countries do...

sharon wasn't doing the gazans any favors by leaving. Sharon was/is a shrewed politician that has no qualms in sacrificing his own for the greater good as he defines it. Israel was split politically 50/50, tearing itself apart.

He dumped gaza based on the belief that the 50% that believed removing settlements would bring peace, would be faced with a new reality. The removal of the settlements, the mantra that was coming out of the west and israeli left was that Israel has to do something "substantial" was it...removing 9000 settlers destroying their homes, letting the gazan have self rule, pretty much fit the bill. The fact that there was no nice flag lowering and raising ceremony was and is irrelevant.

In the context of geo politics, we don't give a shit about how the Palestinians feel, don't care if they feel "ungrateful, happy, sad etc. They got us out of gaza because of their kassams and attacks, not because of any "negotiations"

no complaints on my part.....they had and have a chance to do something either by negotiation peacefully or by negotiation by violence towards the egyptians and israelis, its their decision with consequences that they will have to live up to.

From an israeli point of view, and this pretty wide spread: no settlements do not equal peace-sharon proved his point.
-----------
anyway, there were talks about what to do with the settlements, the borders, the actual pace of the withdrawal, and how it will take place, but i don't believe its really relevant, and of course hamas took over anyway making that point mute to top it off.

[bemildred]

101. I don't begrudge you the self-interest, it's the shooting yourself in the foot I'm talking about. nt

[pelsar]

88. do you have the actually the stats?

expansion in the year before the withdrawal and post withdrawal and the years beyond?

I'll do some looking but i'll betcha they are all relativly the same without any major jump after gaza

without those stats your position (and mine) is nothing more than belief.......is that agreeable?

as far as his consolidation....how do you actually define what that actually means?
(i'm not big on believing in politicians words anyways so you'll have to excuse my take, i put more emphases on the actual events that occurred within the israeli population )

[pelsar]

91. Doug your not going to like this.....the STATS

http://www.fmep.org/settlement_info/settlement-info-and-tables/stats-data/comprehensive-settlement-population-1972-2006


now what are you going to write about?

there was no major growth change in the westbank after the gaza withdrawal. Infact it DROPPED. with and without the golan

so now as i see it you have two choices

one is actually change your belief that the "consolidation" did not include any subsequent increase in the israeli settler population because of gaza, and that it was more political- which is what i saw and believe

or using some imaginative thinking, come back with some variation on the lack of "new growth" and make a new claim about this consolidation (better roads and toilets for the settlers so they'll have a harder time leaving if and when the time comes?)

i know you dont want to, but eventually your going to have to accept that the Palestinians in fact have some responsibility for their predicament in gaza, it isn't a "100% israel" and that they can start their change anytime they want, provided hamas is willing to (oops maybe hamas is the real problem?- or i guess you can always blame hamas ideology on israel-but before you do, is the muslim brotherhood, also an israeli invention?)

[Douglas Carpenter]

92. Sharon's government approved the Gaza withdraw plan on June 6, 2004

between the end of 2004 and the end of 2007 the total number of settlers in the Occupied Territories increased by 43,032. That is quite a significant increase by any standard - according to your figures and completely dwarfs the 6000 settlers removed from the Gaza. Although I would now have to agree with you that the settlement expansion has been relentless with or without the withdrawal - if that is your point. Thanks for the figures. I will be more nuanced in the future. I have never, ever said that the Palestinians don't have some responsibility for their situation. But they are not the onces continuing to expand the settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. They are not the ones like Mr. Netanyahu who has pledged that there will never, ever again be any evacuations of illegal settlements form the occupied territories.

The Sharon government repeatedly and repeatedly justified to its own constituency the withdrawal from the Gaza on the basis that it would consolidate their hold on the West Bank and East Jerusalem. What does consolidate mean? I suspect it meant that Sharon was suggesting that a withdrawal from the Gaza will remove pressure to withdraw illegal settlements from other parts of the occupied territory. Whatever Sharon meant by consolidating their position in the West Bank as a reason to withdraw from the Gaza, it certainly undermines any notion that it was a concession for peace, when he tells his own constituency that its purpose is to consolidate the position of their illegal settlements elsewhere.

[pelsar]

93. bingo!

Although I would now have to agree with you that the settlement expansion has been relentless with or without the withdrawal - if that is your point

exactly the gaza withdrawal had nothing to do with any increase in the settlers in the westbank: zero, nada. and thats been a claim by many.

and again your right, consolidation meant that there was no more pressure to leave further settlements....that pressure dropped since all we got from leaving gaza was terrorism on our civilians day and night for years!!!!

Sharon didn't produce the kassams, shoot them and try to kill civilians on a daily basis...it was those in gaza, who made the decision, it was their leaders PA and Hamas that provided the political and military means for the kassams, border attacks etc on israelis.....that made gaza such a failure.

It wouldnt have taken much to spoil sharon consolidation plan by the gazans would it?... All they had to do is NOT try to kill israelis, and prove that removing the settlements brings peace, take advantage of the greenhouses

call it what you want, partial responsibility, or whatever, they had the power, to "ruin" his plan
____

i have no idea what a "concession for peace is " sounds like one of those buzz words that mean something for anyone....the facts are clear, the opportunity was clear, israel left gaza,destroyed settlements, (there was no change in the growth within the westbank.)...and we got kassams day and night, and the gazans did little to take advantage of their situation, as was one of their choices.....they had an opportunity the best one they ever had since 48, to change the whole relationship, change everything, just continue where israel left off....(of course it wasn't perfect, nothing is in this world, so why expect it from israel?)...and they made the worst possible decisions.

[Douglas Carpenter]

94. if you want me to say that armed militias in the Gaza made matters worse

I agree and I have always thought that. Just as I have always thought the refusal of America, Israel and the European Union to listen to people like your former Foreign Minister, Mr. Ben-Ami and many, many others to engage Hamas politically has made matters worse.

[pelsar]

95. the PA is not a militia

...and before the hamas militia took over it was the PA that was responsible for gaza and they were doing the shooting as well as hamas and islamic jihad.

kassams and the attacks have been gaza govt sanctioned.

and i have no idea what the difference would have been if the europeans were talking to hamas, they would then NOT shoot the kassams? (didnt work with the the PA, so why hamas?)

[Douglas Carpenter]

96. as I'm sure you must know it was Israel, not Hamas that broke the cease fire in Nov 08

And this was hardly the first time in which provocations from Israel came first. I'm sure you would not deny that. In fact there have been numerous lulls in violent activity that were then interrupted by either targeted assassinations, incursions or other activity that everyone knew would provoke a response.

PA Chairman tells forces to help stop Gaza Qassam rocket fire
08/04/2007
By News Agencies

Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas called on Saturday for his security forces to step up efforts to prevent rockets from being fired into Israel from the Gaza Strip.

At a graduation ceremony for his personal security guard, Abbas was quoted by the official WAFA news agency as saying it was necessary that "all parties work with maximum effort, especially the presidential guard and national security forces, to spread security and safety in the homeland, end security anarchy and stop aimless rockets."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/846282.html

A four-month ceasefire between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza was in jeopardy today after Israeli troops killed six Hamas gunmen in a raid into the territory.

Hamas responded by firing a wave of rockets into southern Israel, although no one was injured. The violence represented the most serious break in a ceasefire agreed in mid-June, yet both sides suggested they wanted to return to atmosphere of calm.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

CNN Confirms Israel Broke Ceasefire First

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4


When people are under siege and are closely crowded together and have no very little hope in a place where life has been unbearable for years and they are almost completely cut off even from even the rest of he occupied territories - of course that is a formula for disaster and instability. Yes, Egypt could do more. The Palestinians inside Gaza might have responded better. But these circumstances do not lend themselves to a stable situation.

[pelsar]

97. totally irrelevant....

first off to be precise it was a non written "lull"...not a cease fire and there was limited shooting during the lull. i would call that a more precise description of the events.

and if you want go further with that, after the hamas reaction of the kassam barrage the lull was returned...and then hamas decided to end it officially.....hamas call it off despite its imperfection.

but thats not really relevant is it?...that was in 2007, the pullout and daily kassams were previous

-----

the point is:
Yes, Egypt could do more. The Palestinians inside Gaza might have responded better. But these circumstances do not lend themselves to a stable situation.

of course it wasnt perfect, nor stable, but the reality was that there was little israel could do....the longer it stay, the more israelis were to be killed, joint patrols get israelis killed, the liason offices attacked, supply trucks attacked, even post withdrawl when opening the border points to bring in supplies-attacked.

the israeli govt did what its supposed to do, protect its citizens as well as it can, and that meant a fast pullout before the PA unravelled (note there were no attacks during the withdrawl).

the environment wasnt the best, but so what, it never is, the failure was not taking advantage of the limited resources and that failure is built upon a lot things....but the concept of it being israels failure is simply not bought by israelis and if you want us to try again on the westbank, a very imperfect environment as well.....the first thing to do is examine why gaza failed, where the gazans failed and offer an alternative

i know you have one, and i notice the same weakness as in gaza, weak central govt with miltias (and a far more complex situation these days)....if and when there are kassams on israeli cities...what is israel to do?

a further note: a westbank failure will tear israel apart internally, for anyone who is really concerned about peace, that too has to be part of the equation, it is for israelis

[Green_Lantern]

108. Abbas has no control in Gaza...

To enforce such a ceasefire. Your last statement is right, I think everyone involved is frustrated, miserable, and sick of the constant back and forth.

[Douglas Carpenter]

17. here is a video of the event"

link:

http://antonyloewenstein.com/2010/02/10/the-american-campus-is-the-new-israeli-battleground/


.

[Behind the Aegis]

71. Do you support their actions?

[Douglas Carpenter]

85. I suppose I have mixed feelings

On one hand I tend to disagree with disrupting any academic lecture. Many pro-Palestinian speakers are also disrupted by hecklers and I don't like that. In that respect, I think those who oppose the policies that Mr. Oren is defending should have waited and hit him with hard and logical questions during the question and answer period of the evening's event.

On the other hand, since I oppose the use of violence and do not think it will help the Palestinians, I have trouble opposing completely any nonviolent means including heckling to try to get the Israeli government to come to their senses.

[Behind the Aegis]

86. Thank you for the response.

[Violet_Crumble]

80. Thanks for posting that video...

It reminds me of when Ahmanutjob spoke at Columbia. Not only was he heckled by the students, but the dean of the university used his welcoming address to deliver a torrent of abuse. Having sat through a few speeches as an undergrad where I totally disagreed with the person delivering the speech, I sat and didn't join in the heckling that was going on, found it a bit irritating and rude, but I supported the right of those who were doing it to do so. Controversial figures are always going to score some flack, and it's silly to expect that they'd get welcomed with open arms when what they represent is so wrong.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

98. Well said!

[Douglas Carpenter]

99. hi!!

:hi:

[ProgressiveMuslim]

106. Hey Doug!

How are you?