PA envoy to Geneva: We'll withdraw support for Goldstone report

[oberliner]

The Palestinian envoy in Geneva, Ibrahim Khraisha, told his Israeli counterpart Aharon Leshno Yaar that the Palestinian Authority (PA) plans to announce that it will be withdrawing its support for the adoption of the Goldstone Report during the UN Human Rights Council's vote on Friday.

The report accuses Israel and Hamas of war crimes during their conflict in Gaza in January, an allegation Israel condemns and claims is the result of bias against the Jewish state.

Leshno Yaar, who spoke with the Palestinian envoy Thursday evening, said the development proves Israel's strategy to declare that the adoption of the report may hinder the peace process was correct.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3784401,00.html

[bemildred]

1. Palestinians Drop Effort to Push War Crime Report

UNITED NATIONS — In a startling shift, the Palestinian delegation to the United Nations Human Rights Council dropped its efforts to forward a report accusing Israel of possible war crimes to the Security Council under pressure from the United States, diplomats said Thursday.\

---

“We don’t want to create an obstacle for them,” Ibrahim Khraishi, the Palestinian ambassador, said by telephone from Geneva, where the human rights council is based. “We want to get a strong resolution to deal with the report in a good manner to get a benefit from it.”

---

The position of the United States since the Goldstone report was released in early September has been that it should be dealt with by the Human Rights Council alone. But in a compromise formula, the body is expected to pass a resolution Friday presented by the block of Arab and Muslim states that any action will be delayed until the next meeting in March.

---

Israel maintains that it has a serious inquiry under way, with 100 complaints from Gaza already examined and 23 cases still pending court action. It says that about a third of the 36 incidents in the Goldstone report are already under investigation by the military, while others have been referred for investigation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/02/world/middleeast/02mideast.html?hp

[bemildred]

2. Israel opens two crossings with besieged Gaza

Gaza – Ma’an – Israeli authorities decided to open two crossing points to allow shipments of food and other goods into the besieged Gaza Strip on Thursday.

Palestinian crossings representative Raed Fattouh said that the Kerem Shalom and Karni crossings would be open for 103 to 113 trucks carrying both commercial merchandise and humanitarian aid.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=228892

[bemildred]

3. Hamas leader: Gaza authorities will investigate Goldstone's findings

Rafah – Ma’an Exclusive – Hamas is critical of the Goldstone commission’s report on alleged war crimes in Gaza, but will nonetheless accept its recommendations and investigate charges that militant groups violated the rules of war, senior Hamas official Ahmad Yousef told Ma’an.

In an extended interview at his home in the Gaza Strip town of Rafah, Yousef said that while he disagreed with Justice Richard Goldstone’s equivalence between occupying forces and Palestinian resistance, the Hamas-backed government in Gaza would nonetheless “do our best” to pursue investigations into the deaths of three Israeli civilians.

Yousef’s reaction differed from that of Israel, which refused to cooperate with Goldstone’s UN Fact-Finding Mission and pilloried his 574-page report as biased. On Thursday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu vetoed a suggestion that the government establish a commission of inquiry into Goldstone's findings.

The Goldstone report was one of dozens of topics addressed in Ma’an’s conversation with Yousef, who serves as an advisor to Gaza Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh on foreign affairs.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=228039

[bemildred]

4. Goldstone crisis averted until March

The Palestinian Authority agreed late Thursday night to delay until March a vote set for Friday at the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva that would have endorsed the Goldstone Report.

Endorsement would have opened the door for the Security Council to bring Israelis before the International Criminal Court at The Hague for prosecution for either war crimes or crimes against humanity.

The deferral came after unsuccessful negotiations to find a compromise text that would be acceptable to the six Western countries on the 47-member council: the United States, Belgium, France, Italy, Norway and the United Kingdom.

Palestinian officials said they had enough votes to get endorsement for the report based on the original resolution. US and Western powers are in a minority position on the council, which has consistently voted against Israel since its inception in 2006.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1254393079239&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[ProgressiveMuslim]

5. SHAME ON YOU ABBAS!!! You cowardly, quivering piece of SHIT! nt

[bemildred]

6. I think they cut a deal.

I'm not convinced it's a bad thing.
Let's see how it plays out.

[azurnoir]

7. you may be right Israel is doing alot of chest thumping

Israel declares victory as PA backs down at UNHRC

hile Palestinians representing virtually every segment of society condemned the Palestinian Authority for reversing its support for justice Richard Goldstone's UN report on the Gaza assault, the Israelis were celebrating.

Just before Sukkot began on Thursday night, Israel's ambassador to Geneva announced that the PA's inability to take a stand "is proof of the right strategy taken by the Israeli government and Foreign Ministry, by warning that adopting the repot could harm the peace process."

The ambassador, Leshno Yaar, told the the Hebrew-language daily newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's remarks the same day contributed to the PA's decision, and that even Israel's ultranationalist foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, helped to "undermine" the report

The Jerusalem Post's Friday morning front page read, "Goldstone crisis averted till March," reporting that the PA dropped support for the report backed by the Human Rights Council, despite having a clear majority at the UN body, and quoting the Israeli ambassador as saying that the decision legitimized Israel's stance.

"What happened today is proof that strategy of not cooperating ," Yaar said, "was correct."
.
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=229220

[bemildred]

8. Well, it's not clear. We will have to wait and see what happens.

It's a postponement. We will have to see how the time is used. We will have to see if anything changes, who does what. Who says what.

The BBC story says this:

It was reported earlier on Friday that the Palestinian Authority had withdrawn its support for a resolution endorsing the report, after strong pressure from Washington, but this was strongly denied by Palestinian officials.

---

But Pakistan, speaking for Arab, Islamic and African sponsors of a resolution, formally asked for it to be deferred until the next regular session in March, to "give more time for a broad-based and comprehensive consideration", Pakistan's envoy Zamir Akram said.

Palestinian deputy ambassador Imad Zuhairi told the Associated Press that the deferral was a result of his government's desire to build broad international support for action next year.

"This is not a victory for Israel. The report is there and we will ensure that the report remains alive," Mr Zuhairi said.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

9. I'm sure they did cut a deal.

Al-Jazeera reported last week that Israel's response to initial PA chest thumping was "Huh? you encouraged us!"

Fatah really isn't in a position to be wheeling and dealing on this.

Really, Abbas is a piece of shit.

[bemildred]

10. You could be right, a sellout.

I just had a feeling things were really getting frantic right before this came out, some strange things were being said. Then all of a sudden, Bam! OK, let's put it off for six months.

You know what I think of the "threat" to end the "peace process".

Then there is this:

While defusing an issue for Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's government, the delay is a potential blow to the political standing of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

The Palestinian leader is being pulled by Washington toward renewed negotiations despite the inability of Mitchell and Obama to coax Israel into agreeing to freeze the construction of Jewish settlements in the West Bank -- a step Abbas felt would broaden Palestinian support for the talks. Along with his attendance at a meeting with Netanyahu in New York last week, the delay in action on the Goldstone report marks a second big deferral to the United States.

"These developments in New York and now in Geneva have affected negatively the slightly improving public position of our leadership. It is disappointing on all levels," said Ghassan Khatib, a Palestinian Authority spokesman.

Abbas was already caught in the middle of the Gaza conflict, a ground and air war directed at his main rival, Hamas. Abbas holds power only in the West Bank, and used the security forces under his control to tamp down protests as Israel rolled into Gaza, which Hamas seized in 2007. More than 1,100 Palestinians were killed, according to Israeli officials, while officials in Gaza say more than 1,400 died, including hundreds of civilians. Thirteen Israelis were killed.

Which supports your idea that he is done after this. If he got nothing for it, then I would agree.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/02/AR2009100203935.html

[azurnoir]

12. and of course

PA denies role in postponing UN report debate

President Mahmoud Abbas' spokesman denied reports on Friday that the Palestinian Authority had dropped its support for the UN-backed Goldstone report earlier the same day in Geneva.

In a carefully worded statement, Nabil Abu Rudeinah said the postponement came after a request from Russia, the United States, and Europe, in a move that was welcomed by other parties at the UN Human Rights Council.

The spokesman did not explain why the PLO's ambassador to the UN, Ibrahim Khraishi, was quoted on Thursday night as saying that "we decided to defer the matter" when asked by reporters investigating reports that he intended to delay the matter.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=229263

[pelsar]

11. perhaps because the PA needs israel...

the PA and the IDF work every night to keep hamas and friends from doing a repeat of gaza. Now i understand for some that its like working with the devil, but as in life there are consequence for actions and the gaza pullout certainly had its repercussions:

for some who missed it:
Hamas is well trained, motivated, equipped and supported
the westbankers are willing to play during the day with the UN and their pseudo supporters, but at night, away from the spotlight, they know very well that in the mean time the israeli occupation is the preferred option to giving hamas a chance to do a repeat of gaza.

i realize there are those that prefer occupation by an armed force of ones own gene pool-no matter how cruel (hamas will not be having lessons in civil rights in the foreseeable future)......but it appears the westbankers, whos security services are working with the IDF, differ in their opinion given the quiet in the westbank......but then what do they know, they just live there.

Hence the withdrawal of the report.....

[pelsar]

13. one added note....

i think the westbankers noticed that when hamas/hizballa, and other militia types take over, the "left" and "civilian democratic intl forces suddenly go very very quiet about the internal lack of civil rights within and physically leave the residents to "their own devices". (note the lack of nice western college kids "fighting for civil rights in gaza....be it within or without). Govts make a bit of noise, but they don't seem to have much affect on the actually governing policies of the hamas, etc.

and i suspect they also noticed the iranian protests...their failure and the massive lack of support for their efforts by the worlds govts and civilians.....

seems the westbankers have taken notice and have made a few choices.....preferring the IDF/israel to risking a repeat of gaza.....of course respecting their choices i understand is "out of the question"..what do they know, they're just "Palestinians....."
_____


perhaps for those who support Palestinian independence....should think up a new strategy, one that may actually support and help them as opposed to the present one....

[Donald Ian Rankin]

14. It's not just Gaza.

I can't speak for other scare-quotes-left people, but I personally go quiet whenever I see a situation that I really don't like but can't see any way to improve.

In a society like e.g. Burma or Zimbabwe, where the problems appear to be being inflicted on the populace by the leadership, I think that international pressure is a very valuable thing.

But in e.g. Iran or Saudi Arabia, as far as I can see the problem is that a majority of the populace *want* extremely wicked and repressive laws, for religious reasons. At that point, it's not clear to me that there's much that can be achieved by international pressure - you can take some of the edge off a few more egregious/high-profile cases (execution of rape victims and the like), but short of invading and occupying (I suspect that economic pressure will just harden anti-Western attitudes) I cannot see any course of action that will lead to respect for human rights in most of the Middle Eastern Islamic societies.

When I can't think of anything productive to say, I go quiet (or rather talk about other things). What do you think I should be saying?

I don't think Gaza is quite that far gone, but it's heading in that direction. The only way to improve matters there is to encourage the populace to support the PA rather than Hamas. But, as long as the PA are advocating negotiations with Israel rather than violence, and negotiations are clearly not going to achieve a viable Palestinian state, Hamas are likely to gain popularity - it's human nature to prefer pointless violence to pointless passivity, sadly.

[pelsar]

15. so now you've got a real problem on your hands....

as fas as hamas and gaza goes....there probably is little you can do, so at least we can dispense with the hypocrisy that its a human rights issue, its not, its a nationalistic issue.

....but i doubt that most prefer repressive religious laws..and that includes saudi arabia and iran as well, especially not 2nd and 3rd generations. Revolutions and revolts are not so easy...and their failure as in iran can have horrible results for those who try.

but alas there is something that can be done, not only to insure an independent Palestenians state, in the westbank but a peaceful one as well. The problem is that it will take a real effort upon the true believers in civil rights and democracy to act. Much like the christian nuns who went to africa with their beliefs.....they did it quietly were willing to sacrifice their own lives for their beliefs (gaza is lost for near future as far as i can see....).

this is the Pelsar solution to the middle east:

1) personal security for the Palestenians, this is crucial and can be obtained only through the present PA/IDF cooperation that is happening now.
2) econ security where the locals can invest, as well as have investors invest.

up until now that prolongs the occupation...now comes the "killer app"....

3) teach real civil rights and democracy to the youth. This will not come from israel, nor from the PA, but from the true and real believers of democracy and civil rigths. They will have to sneak in perhaps to join the demonstrators against the wall...and while tossing rocks and getting tear gassed, explain to the protestors why they infact can protest and not get shot, like their brethren in gaza or in iran....

they will have to set up underground schools.....and when kicked out by the PA, return via jordan to continue their teachings....eventually the youth will start protesting for real civil rights, freedom of the press from the PA...and then you have the beginning of the end of the occupation....

[shaayecanaan]

17. We've all got problems on our hands, lad...

I don't think any public "prefers" repressive religious laws. I do think, however, if a government is going to impose repressive laws, dressing them up in religious terms is the best way to get it done.

The other good way is to say that they're essential for national security. That's a good one too.

Let me ask you a question:- Do you think the British should have insisted that the Lehi and Irgun renounce terrorism before the establishment of Israel as a sovereign state?

Probably not. Because the Irgun and Lehi would have kept up their terrorist campaign as long as the British remained in Palestine. And it has to be said, the British were a lot more humane to the proto-Israelis than the Israelis have been to the Palestinians. Of course, once the British left and the Arabs were quelled the Israeli state simply pointed its guns at its former freedom fighters and said, "you've served your purpose, now drop your guns".

I don't know whether the Palestinians will do the same, but it really is their decision. And if you think they're going to take democracy lessons from you, I have to say, gunpoint democracy lessons generally haven't worked very well in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Besides, in all seriousness, who would take democracy lessons from Israel?

[pelsar]

18. actually you bit "short on the history....

lets start with the irgun and lehi....the hagana did in fact turn them in to the brits during the occupation. I doubt this will change your view at all, but at least you now a bit more educated.

second geography: the brits (mainly a military force) once they realized Palestine was a lost cause..simply got up and left, ..that option doesnt exist with israel, hence methods differ


third: read slower: the democracy lessons would not come from israel...but from the nice "left, human rights types, that believe in civil rights, that would go and teach "the people" who would then demand it from their govt...sort of "put up or shut up" kind of thing. I understand why this idea won't go over so well, since i suspect there will be few takers (they're more like "arm chair human rights activist).....but i always enjoy exposing hypocrisy.

gunpoint democracy does work sometimes...japan, germany...will probably fail in Afghanistan, might work in iraq.. dont know how Guatemala is doing....clearly its not a black and white issue.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

19. you point #3 is not clear. Can you clarify. Leave out the quotations.

You don't use them correctly and it muddles your point.

[pelsar]

23. PM ill try again...without the sarcasm...

i'm actually quite serious about it and really believe it is probably the best chance for the region.

its goes like this:

the PA is basically corrupt and will not be change its methods unless under pressure to (no surprise there, thats how all govts work

the israeli govt is not to be relied upon to help the PA or the Palestinians..it will do what ever is in its best interests, and pressure via morality will not work.

Israel leaving without a strong democratic Palestinians society simply invites hamas to enter and take over..that will not lead to anything good.

____

my conclusion is that if the Palestinian society in the westbank is really a democratic society (i'm not talking about liberal blah blah blah) just a society where there is freedom of the press, the people can gather, protest, kick out their reps (that would better than israels system) etc. Where civil rights are argued about, etc.

then hamas will have little chance of taking over, plus the israeli population will have little stomach to send its soldiers to beat up people of a democracy that is no longer threatening them (as in intifada I).

there will then start the isolation of the fanatics on both sides....at that point Palestinian independence will be a "no brainer" and just a matter of the lawyers working it out.

but how to get there, how will the Palestinians really become that democracy..... Its got to be snuck in, as the PA and the religious will be against it. The Palestinian youth have to be taught about it "on the sly." Today when the westerners volunteer to help the Palestinian they are told very clearly not to push their western ideas etc, that should be changed. They should push those ideals, quiety and quietly build a "resistance" to the present power structure. Think of ACORN only instead of housing ....democratic ideals. (ok so its not an exact 'fit"...but the idea of starting from the bottom to spread the concept of democracy).

I realize this is coming from an israeli/American probably the last one who has anything to say about it, but i really believe its your best chance.....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

24. I agree with you, except that "changing the PA" won't work. The Palestinian Authority as it exists

today is basically another tool of the Israeli occupation. It 's controlled thru finances. It controls the WB because it employs 10s of 1000s.

So I agree. People have stop, take stock, and ask if this mess what what they sacrificed their children for.

My husband and I were talking this a.m. about the PA dropping Goldstone. What is the WB to do? Protest? In favor of what, a Hamas gov't? of course not. So as much as they hate the PA (and they do) they hate Hamas too. At least with the PA comes a better degree of economic life.

It's truly time for a third way, committed to rule of law, democratic process AND NATIONAL LIBERATION. The thing is, it's probably too late for 2 states at this point.

Did you read the Abuminah piece I posted the other day?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x288710

The other thing that folks here don't realize is how repressive the PA is of political dissenters. It's really no better than Hamas.

[pelsar]

26. the article misses the point...its about national liberation...thats not enough...

the struggle isn't worth anything if it doesnt include democracy. The struggle at best if it succeeds will replace the PA with a hamas/hizballa/syrian style variation..and those type of governments require corruption, outside enemies or both to survive.......

i say start with democracy.....give the Palestinians freedom of speech, civil rights....after that, national liberation will come naturally. Democracies as a rule don't get in wars with each other (I think greeks and turks in cyprus is the sole exception)

Much of the hatred, demonization toward the Palestinians is that they are are "'primitive people etc. A Palestinians democracy will be not just an embarrassment for many israelis but it will forge relationships between israeli and Palestinians. It will weaken the hold of the occupation as well as weaken the hold of the Palestinians who include haifa (israelis too will be recognized as having civil rights.....) I realize that making a democracy is not as exciting as liberation.....but going to the "people" is by far the better way...

and it will work only as grass roots effort, since everyone in power everywhere in the middle east will be against it....EVERYONE.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

27. Pelsar, here's the question: how does a democratic rules of law function in an occupied society

?? How does that work under a corrupt regime?

The only time Palestinians came close to this was in the first intifadah, with widely recognized national leadership. You know this.

Who is going to "give" freedom, civil rights, freedom of the press etc?

I don't know that one can exist without the other.

[pelsar]

28. within the Ramalla....jenin..etc

the IDF doesn't interfere with the PA newspapers, the IDF doesn't go to Ramalla these days etc.....plus the jews had a strong free press while under the brits, the Palestinians can do it as well..and if the PA/IDF shuts down the press, they go to the internet, .......or use the israeli papers...or send out pamphlets. .....free speech is essential as a first step to civil rights....and getting rid of the PA/fatah combo

No one gives civil rights, the Palestinians have to "take it'. Whereas they go and protest at Belin weekly they can go and protest for civil rights as well in Ramalla.

but here i got a problem..i am no one to lecture the Palestinians on how to get civil rights. I am an american university educated ashkenazi/white jew who still serves in the IDF.....that puts me in the elite/oppressor category...my idea is based on how i see it working, though my own lenses, but it makes me a bit uncomfortable to tell the Palestinians how to live or what to do.......,of course my interest is selfish, i want this thing to end........ whether or not the Palestinians agree with me, well thats another story....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

30. Right. The CORRUPT PA is running Ramallah.

They are the ones tossing political opponents in jail.

Arafat was the one who began jailing journalists.

The PA is (one of) the problem. It's not the solution.

[shira]

25. you really think that has a chance to work? i prefer Ben Dror Yemini's idea...

Exchange Iraq for Palestine.

The solution for the Arab world is a period - and not necessarily a short one - of a benevolent dictatorship. Elimination of coercion, preaching of hatred and incitement to violence, and a sound general education system coupled with economic development. Iraq needs an Attaturk, with a tyranny for the purpose of enlightenment, at least for the interim, and not free elections, which would result in the coronation of some ayatollah. Democracy is indeed the best form of government, but in this region, at this stage, it is a recipe for collective suicide.

http://www.geocities.com/byemini/EURUPEVERSUSARABS.htm

It appears to me there's a better chance this would work than your idea - I don't see the PA and Hamas allowing it to happen beneath their feet without fierce and brutal opposition that would squash any underground liberal movements. In fact, what examples exist historically as a basis for this idea in that part of the world (as opposed to other regions)?

[pelsar]

34. its too risky...

benevolent dictatorship?....thats a tough definition. I do believe the change starts with the education system and that if democratic values are taught, change will come via the "ground up."....however no dictator is going to allow that. I don't know of any real underground liberal movements, but why not?

At least we'll see a divide between those who are interested in civil rights and human rights for the Palestinians and those who prefer the nationalistic liberation where the human rights etc are secondary, that may or may not "appear" upon liberation.

to me its obvious that withdrawl without a strong democracy has proven a massive failure in gaza and lebanon, its time for a new model. Also the PA is corrupt as they come. i doubt they would let in a dictator with such ideas. The only way would be for a strong dictator to have a change of heart during his rule.....and what are the chances of that happening?

so i suggest that the college kids across the globe get extra credit for coming to westbank and teaching about civil rights to the Palestinians, they could get extra credit for being tossed in jail (make it worth their while) or double credit for being forcibly removed.....underground newspapers, twitter, facebook spread the word. Once the concept of civil rights, human rights has been internalized...that blowing up busses really is a bad thing, then the general values of both societies will start coming closer to one another and the "language" will also be similar and this will sideline the extremists (which is essential)..of course thats just my theory.

its has to be a grass roots effort to sideline the politicians and extremists. The Palestinians did it once with intifada I.....they can do it again (note, they had no help from anyone)

[shira]

35. by benevolent dictator, I'm thinking someone like...

Salaam Fayyad or Sari Nusseibeh put in charge (maybe both), sort of like Karzai in Afghanistan. But they have to have control over the W.Bank and Gaza somehow and neutralize Hamas, Fatah, IJ, PFLP etc. and I'm not sure how easy or difficult that would be. Maybe NATO helps to set it all up, give it some time to work and then peace is b/w Israel is a foregone conclusion. It just seems in your scenario, the likelihood of civil war is high - between Fatah/Hamas/IJ/PFLP and the rest of Palestinians who want them out of power. I'm thinking it would end like what we have seen recently in Iran, and therefore, there wouldn't be any change.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

37. Salam Fayyad with 2% of the vote in last elections. Democracy in Palestine, right Pelsar? nt

[shira]

39. democracy after benevolent dictatorship gets conditions ripe for it

[shaayecanaan]

32. History lesson...

The Haganah did turn in LHI fighters to the British until October 1945. In October 45 the three groups signed the Hebrew Rebellion Accord and from that point the Haganah sided with the Lehi and Irgun, despite the various assassinations and terrorist incidents that were carried out by the Irgun thereafter.

that option doesnt exist with israel, hence methods differ

Israel could get up and leave the West Bank within the year if they wanted to.

gunpoint democracy does work sometimes...japan, germany

Japan and Germany were 75% of the way there before World War II. The postwar German constitution was effectively the Weimar constitution with a few reforms. The postwar Japanese government was by and large the same people who were in charge before the war - and they would go on to stay in power for another fifty years.

I understand why this idea won't go over so well, since i suspect there will be few takers (they're more like "arm chair human rights activist).....but i always enjoy exposing hypocrisy.

So, in other words, you would consent to being governed by the British if they could do a better job than the government that you've got now? If not, you're as much a hypocrite as the rest of us.

[pelsar]

33. poor assumption..you should ask first....

japan....was turned into a democracy by gunpoint....i dont really care who ruled it pre and post, thats 100% irrelevant
Germany had a history but it took the gun to change the culture to a more sustainable democracy (changed the school books and education system)

so those two are absolute proofs that it CAN be done by gunpoint....it may also requires complete destruction of the country, does require a complete new education system..,but that wasn't the question.
______

leaving the westbank based on the history of Lebanon and Gaza is not a viable option....kassams, mortars and a hamas take over of the westbank, a very real possibility makes leaving the westbank now, not realistic for israels...the history of the region shows what works and what doesn't in terms of israeli withdrawls...ignoring it, is rather foolish.

you may not agree, but then you wouldnt be living with missiles falling on your cities every day.....with yet another war looming in the near future. I get the impression that your more concerned with nationalism/tribalism than civil rights and democracy and avoiding a future war..but thats just an impression.

_____

in general as a jew in the US i had no problem the US being a christian country nor do most jews have problems living in Denmark, etc and other christian countries that are democratic.....

the brits however were in Palestine as colonialists...just their military and were not about developing a democratic state. The jews came to live and develop a democratic society and did. As it turns out the ararbs who do live as citizens in israel overwhelming prefer it, so obviously there is something successful about it.

but you seemed to missed my whole point. Its not about the occupation continuing its about a method to develop a strong democratic Palestinian state before israel leaves the westbank, to insure that there is no repeat of lebanon or gaza....what part of that is confusing you?


post note: even after the accord, the "cease fire" if you will was an uneasy truce, at the same time i see it as reasonable and would expect something similar out of hamas and fatah and as history has shown fatah and hamas have had similar experiences

[shaayecanaan]

36. You should drop the smartarse attitude...

japan....was turned into a democracy by gunpoint....i dont really care who ruled it pre and post, thats 100% irrelevant

Japan was essentially a democracy prior to World War II. It had two political parties and a parliamentary system of government, although it did not have universal suffrage (the system was called "Taisho democracy"). Germany was a democracy prior to World War II.

The reason why Japan and Germany became successful democracies following WW2 is because they were already 90% of the way there. Iraq was about 50% of the way there, and Afghanistan precisely 0%, which surely the Americans have to figure out at some time or another.

leaving the westbank based on the history of Lebanon and Gaza is not a viable option....kassams, mortars and a hamas take over of the westbank

You're presuming that the only reason there are no rockets from the West Bank is because of the occupation. Israel occupied southern Lebanon for twenty years and there were always plenty of rockets. Kassam rocket fire began during Israel's occupation of Gaza.

Generally speaking, when there is relative quiet with the Palestinians (such as in the West Bank presently) Israel usually points to the success of the occupation.

On the other hand, when an intifada breaks out, Israel says well, we can't withdraw under fire, if the Palestinians want peace they'll have to renounce violence first.

And the cycle repeats itself. You'd think the Israeli public would figure it out, but then again, the English fought in France for a hundred years and the public never really complained about what a boondoggle it was. People can be stupid that way.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

38. Are the Jews in the west bank about developing a a democratic state? nt

[Vegasaurus]

20. The Palestinians may not choose democracy, but the alternative

isn't working out so well for them.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

16. I'd really like to dialogue with you about what you're saying.

Are you up for some conversation?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

21. Sure

Or, at least, say what you want, and I promise to read it, and to reply if I can see anything constructive to say and if real life doesn't get in the way.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

22. I guess I want to ask about 2 things...

Do you really think the PA is any kind of viable alternative to Hamas in Gaza?

How do you envision the population in Gaza responding to Hamas? What is your understanding of how they view Hamas rules and leadership? What do you consider "wicked?"

I agree with part of what you're saying, as in, sometimes outsiders just can't do it. Sometimes the revolution must come from within...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

29. It could be, and it's very hard to say, respectively.

Do you really think the PA is any kind of viable alternative to Hamas in Gaza?

At present, not really - Hamas is too firmly entrenched, both in terms of popular support and in terms of grasp on the levers of power. But Hamas's primary source of support, as far as I can see, is that they advocate "Palestinians continue to suffer, and make Israelis suffer too", whereas the PA offer "Palestinians continue to suffer, but let Israelis get on with their lives". If at any point it becomes the that the Palestinians have a chance to achieve their goals through peaceful means, I would expect support for Hamas to rapidly evaporate.

My impression of how the population of Gaza view Hamas rules and leadership is second or third hand, and - crucially - pretty much all of those hands are incredibly partisan in one way or another. I find it very hard to judge how widespread support for Hamas's imposition of Islamic law on Gaza is, but as far as I can tell the answer is "non-trivial, but not universal".

I'm not really saying either that "outsiders just can't do it" "the revolution must come from within" - for one thing, I think that the last thing the Palestinians need is a revolution, and that any revolution that comes from within Gazan society at the moment is likely to be for the worse rather than for the better, and for another I think that if by "it" you mean "establish a viable Palestinian state" then I think that the only people who can do it are outsiders - I don't think the Palestinians can achieve it either by peace or war.

But I do think that the only way Western *commentators* (i.e. us, as opposed to Western political leaders who can actually achieve things) can improve the situation in Gaza is indirectly - by trying to put pressure on the political leadership of the USA, Israel and the PA, and the electorates of the USA and Israel, rather than hoping for either the Gazan leadership or the population of either Gaza or the West Bank to listen directly to us.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

31. I think Hamas' primary source of support is that they are not Fatah.

I don't know what will happen. It sickens me because this is Israel's dream come true. palestinians fighting each other, with one side actively collaborating with Israel.

The reason I asked about Gaza is that it's hard to get a sense of the poeple who live there. They are often cartooned. they aren't wild-eyed fanatics. They are religious, definitely more so than WBers. My own inlaws are obsrevant Muslims, former members of Fatah, and even have voted for Hamas in the elections. But I also know tht my own BIL was blindfolded and escorted out in the middle of the night by Hamas thugs for firing hamas members where he works. They too have their corruption. I know they want new leadership, but the PA is no alternative for them. FCOL, they dropped the Goldstone report and all those ramifications for a phone deal. Hundreds of Gazans slaughtered... does anyone think that goes unnoticed in Gaza?

Gazans have always had the harder road to hoe. Poorer. MOre isolated. But they are also amazingly kind, generous and warm-hearted. As conservative Muslims they probably would tolerate more than you or I would be comfy with. They probably don't care much about school girls forced to wear the head scarf. I doubt my SIL cares much, and she is intelligent, educated and open-minded. I love her dearly. She just believes God prefers that women cover their head when they are not home. They care about the 1000s of Palestinians languishing in Israeli prisons, though.

Some words have become bugaboo. I was married by a sharia court. Sharia is not a dirty word.

I am pretty hopeless. I just wanted to make sure that you didn't think the people of Gaza were "wicked." I think until someone comes along with the courage to buck both PA and Hamas, and speak plain truth to the people, we won't see much change.

[Vegasaurus]

40. At some point, the Palestinians will have to accept some responsibility for themselves

They continue to blame Israel, the US, the "west", everyone for their own internal problems.

The facts remain: even if Israel and every last Jew left the Middle East, there would be factional violence among the Muslim sects,

The fact is that Muslims have killed many more of each other than anyone on the outside.

And these facts can't be blamed on the Us or Israel, although it is easier than the Palestinians taking any responsibility for themselves.

They should try it, actually.