Goldstone: IDF must punish officers for Gaza war crimes

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"United Nations investigator Richard Goldstone, whose commission of inquiry found Israel guilty of war crimes in the Gaza Strip, said Monday that Israel Defense Forces soldier and officers must be held accountable for any violations to military standards.

Goldstone's findings outraged Israeli officials across the political and military spectrum, who accused the former South African judge of bias and failure to sufficiently recognize as war crimes Hamas' rocket fire during the winter offensive.

In an exclusive interview with Channel 2 on Monday, Goldstone said IDF soldiers who committed the violations, as well as the commanders who failed to reprimand them, must stand trial for their offenses.

The former judge also said that Israel should have taken the opportunity for an internal investigation of the IDF's conduct during the offensive.

J Street, the left-wing pro-Israel lobby group in the U.S., made a similar plea for an internal IDF probe on Monday."

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J Street statement on Goldstone Report

<snip>

"Today, J Street Executive Director Jeremy Ben-Ami released the following statement:

J Street has reviewed the Goldstone report in its entirety over the past several days.

J Street agrees with Israelis, such as Minister Isaac Herzog, that some of the concerns with the report would have been better addressed had the Israeli Government cooperated with the investigation in presenting its own findings.

We urge the Israeli government to establish an independent state commission of inquiry to investigate the accusations, something Israel has done on several occasions in the past.

J Street strongly condemns Hamas for its actions both before and during the Gaza war – actions which the report says may amount to crimes against humanity.

The past cannot be changed by reports and commissions. Israelis, Palestinians and the international community led by the United States must focus on forging a better future – beginning with this week’s trilateral meeting hosted by President Obama.

Purposeful and assertive action is needed now to avert future rounds of violence and bloodshed. A two-state solution, achieved in short order, is the best alternative for Israel to ongoing insecurity and endless rounds of investigations and international opprobrium.

J Street will continue to focus on advancing this goal and supporting those with the courage to lead the way in making the right choices and tough compromises necessary to achieve peace and security in the Middle East and to advance American interests in the region.

http://www.jstreet.org/blog/?p=581

[Howardx]

1. Error: You can't recommend threads from this forum

kicked anyways

[Jim Sagle]

2. Wow. A UN dominated by ME dictators condemns Israel. Shocka!

[bemildred]

3. Good for J Street.

"Purposeful and assertive action is needed now to avert future rounds of violence and bloodshed."

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. Given that he acknowledges that the report was done without critical data

that he is pushing for court action seems a little premature, but its one way to keep it in the news...

[Scurrilous]

5. Who's being unfair? - Richard Goldstone

<snip>

"The responses from the government of Israel to the UN Fact-Finding Mission on Gaza have been deeply disappointing. The mission's mandate enabled Israel to bring its concerns and facts relating to Operation Cast Lead publicly before a UN inquiry. It could have been used by Israel to encourage the UN and especially the Human Rights Council to move in a new direction beneficial to the interests of Israel. I repeatedly requested the government of Israel to do that, and to meet with me in Jerusalem to discuss how the Fact-Finding Mission should approach its mandate.

Even after that approach was rejected, the mission sent a substantial list of questions to the government requesting information on issues in respect of which we proposed to report. We did not wish to make findings adverse to Israel public without having the benefit of the facts and its views on them. That request for information also fell on deaf ears.

So it is hardly fair for Israel to accuse the mission of "getting its facts wrong." In short, the benefits of an even-handed mandate from the Human Rights Council were squandered by Israel.

I am also surprised and disappointed that some critics of the Report have dismissed its criticisms of Hamas and other armed groups in Gaza, who have committed serious war crimes against the civilian population of southern Israel. These have been fully documented and the terror they have caused to so many has been comprehensively described and condemned. There has been criticism of the Report on the basis that it devotes disproportionate attention to the conduct of Israel. That was unavoidable considering the many incidents the mission was obliged to investigate in Gaza. The factual inquiries we were called upon to make relating to a severe three-week military operation from the air, sea and land were far more complex than the comparatively unsophisticated launch of thousands of rockets into Israel as acts of terror.

IN ITS report on Operation Cast Lead, the government of Israel acknowledges in unequivocal terms that it considers itself bound by the norms of international humanitarian law. In particular, it recognizes the crucial principle of distinction - the legal requirement to protect civilians consistent with military necessity.

It cannot, I suggest, interpret that requirement of proportionality to mean that all members of Hamas are combatants. In that context, the government of Israel has not provided any explanation for the bombing of food factories, egg-producing chicken farms and what was the sole flour factory in Gaza. It has not explained why it destroyed or severely damaged thousands of homes. And it has not explained why the bombing on the first day of the military operations of densely populated civilian areas was timed for the busiest time on a weekday when the streets were full of people going about their business.

These and the other serious issues raised in the report call for responses and evaluation. I would add that there appears to be no issue as to the intention of the Israel Defense Forces. They bombed targets that were carefully and deliberately chosen. The sophistication of their weaponry and their careful planning admits of no other conclusion."

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[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. Ding Ding Ding...we have a whiner!!!

Goldstone complains here and as before that it is unfair to criticize his work because Israel chose not to play along with him. Clear admission on his part that he lacked both sides of the story. He is clearly distraught that his work is being appropriately sidelined since Israel denied him access to critical pertinent data.

I predicted the Israeli approach quite some time ago and its impact on the report. Its wasn't hard and the results foreseeable.
Bureaucrats like Goldstone and others are infuriated when their work get ignored by the rest of us who know a flawed product when we see one. This is just one more attempted by him to keep it in the news.

[Violet_Crumble]

7. Whiner? Infuriated? Distraught? A bit of hyperbole there on yr part, eh?

He's made a very good point about Israel refusing to cooperate. If they wanted to put their side of things forward, they had the opportunity to do so...

Have you even bothered reading the report? I'm seriously doubting it, seeing yr using the same debunked 'arguments' you used months ago...

And who's 'the rest of us'? All I'm seeing is the reaction of people who can't tolerate any criticism of Israel, regardless of how evidence is pointing to a lot of wrong-doing on the part of the IDF...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. No, just poking fun at bureaucrats and their follies

That the report would be flawed and ignored is clearly the case. The only thing that will be debunked is the report itself if it shows any semblance of being taken seriously.

The problem here is that without getting data from both sides a fair report was not realistically possible. Instead of acknowledging the short comings, Goldstone published with any real caveats whining that Israel had it chance. That is a serious lack of integrity. Even the Obama administration attacked it. Already the report is showing it has "no legs".

[Violet_Crumble]

9. I'm not sure how silly hyperbole is poking fun, nor why you'd want to do it...

You haven't actually shown that the report is flawed, and it's ridiculous to claim it's ignored considering all the attention it's getting...

There's been plenty of reports done in the past that haven't had input from all sides, yet they've been fair, meticulous and credible. You haven't explained why Israel is apparently unique and its pigheaded refusal to cooperate makes it look good when if anyone else did it, it'd be seen by you for what it is....

So instead of sitting there and throwing all that hyperbole around, how about you start going through the report and pointing out instances of where it's wrong? Yr 'argument' would be taken more seriously if you did that...

on edit: You ignored me when I asked you if you'd even bothered reading the report. So, have you read it?

[shira]

10. note who he addresses - it's not his Israeli critics and their legit concerns with his report

who is Goldstone really addressing?

If he's trying to get through to the Israeli public, he's not going to do it by ignoring all their concerns, and there are many articulated in at least a dozen opinion columns this past week - none of which Goldstone addresses.

Gee, I wonder why.

:eyes:

It appears he prefers to remain relevant in the news and is only addressing the useful idiots and haters.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Who's the 'usual idiots and haters'? Anyone who doesn't hold the same view as you?

Plus, I'm not exactly sure why you think an opinion piece has to be addressed to anyone in particular...

[shira]

12. why are you asking me anything about this? what's the point? remember where we left off?

maybe you forgot, so I'll help you out...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x286996#287625

"You don't seem good at taking hints, Shira. I'm not interested in asking you any questions on this topic, and I'm not interested in answering the barrage of pointless questions yr firing away with, given the way you bullshit and try to tell me that you know what I supposedly know..."

=======

If you want to continue discussing Goldstone's Report with me, then start here at #93, and no more obfuscations, insults, or evasions please.....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x286996#287617

And if not, have a nice day. :)

[Violet_Crumble]

13. I recall telling you I wasn't interested in discussing yr pet hobby horse, not the Goldstone Report.

And when I went back and checked what I'd said, that was exactly what I'd said very clearly to you....

btw, as I said earlier, you appear to think that disagreeing with you is insulting you. It's not....

[shira]

14. the issue of human shields is covered in the Goldstone Report, albeit inaccurately

Here's one example of Goldstone fudging the data...
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=18&x_article=1729

You'll find more coverage elsewhere throughout the report, like in paragraphs 470-480.

[Violet_Crumble]

18. I didn't say I didn't want to discuss the Goldstone report....

I'm not sure why you falsely claimed I didn't, nor why yr continuing to act as though I did after I corrected yr false assumption....

I'm not sure how what I just read was 'fudging the data', but I'm sure yr going to explain...

[shira]

20. if you want to discuss the Goldstone Report, then why not discuss the issue of human shields in it?

And if you don't see a problem with the mission's report on the hospital, despite reports Hamas was firing from the vicinity and deliberately putting civilians in harm's way (which Goldstone denies) that's pretty sad.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. As I said earlier, I'm bored shitless of yr 'discussion' of human shields...it's so obsessive...

Oh, I see you've taken again to reacting to things I didn't say. What I said was (and I'll repeat it for you this time) that I'm not sure how what I just read was 'fudging the data', but I'm sure yr going to explain...

[shira]

23. Goldstone fudged the data - just like HRW (of which he was a board member) when his mission ignored

...news reports of Hamas militants firing from the hospital grounds and using Palestinians as shields.

His mission would like for people to believe there were no militants around at the time the IDF responded to Hamas fire - as if Hamas originally shot at no one (maybe they shot at ghosts) and that later, after Hamas left, the IDF showed up and started firing back at civilians and civilian infrastructure - for no apparent reason other than they are mean, nasty ghoulish fiends who should be tried and convicted for crimes against humanity at the Hague.

So tell me please - when the Goldstone mission intentionally ignores reports of Hamas deliberately using Palestinians and hospitals/ambulances as shields, do you have a problem with that (do you have a problem with Goldstone ignoring those reports and doing no follow-up investigations on them)?

[FarrenH]

15. Except its not being ignored

A LOT of people are taking it very seriously. Are you living in a bubble?

[shira]

16. it is being ignored by the vast majority of Israelis and other experts in the field of assymetrical

...warfare, like Richard Kemp.

Did you read this yet, and if so what are your thoughts?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x287727#287770

If you read that, you'll realize why Western nations could never be behind such a ridiculous analysis.

Most of Israel's left is ignoring it because it's well beyond ludicrous...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x287828

Realize that most Israelis serve in the military and have friends/family who serve - so they kinda know what's going on and when they read Goldstone's Report, they realize it's the furthest thing from reality.

Think of it this way - if a RW thinktank (yes, a contradiction in terms) were to piece together some crappy over-the-top, ludicrous, POS, one-sided screed against Iran or Saudi Arabia, who would take it seriously? Sure - like the Goldstone Report, it may bring up a few good points that require further investigation but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's a politically and ideologically twisted POS hatchet-job that wouldn't be taken seriously.

Get it?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. In the US it has no legs, even on the major universty where I teach

The Obama administration has also attacked it.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. Sorry to be a bit of a pedant, but don't you spell it 'university'?

That's one hell of a bizarre major university you teach at. What do they do? Hand out copies of every UN report that comes out and poll everyone on their reactions? Somehow I'm getting the feeling that you like to project yr own opinions onto that of yr entire country or yr entire university. It'd probably come across as a bit more credible if you stuck to just speaking on behalf of yrself, anyway that's what the large government department I work in think! ;)

[azurnoir]

21. Oh Vi you have to understand it's the

American spelling of universty that's all:-)

[bemildred]

24. Not a bad pun, actually, "universty". Oink oink.

Being prone to typos myself, I have to be somewhat sympathetic.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. Its called forgetfulness WRT the spell checker

I use and ancient net book to post. Hard to read outdoors and the shift key tends to stick. If I forget the spell check...

[bemildred]

28. Well, I (almost) never use spell check, so I think typos.

But your version works fine too.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. You of all people to use a spelling flame

I teach on a politically active campus. Perhaps because its the beginning of the term, but I really have not seen anything about Goldstones's flawed report. We had major demonstrations during OCL.

[invictus]

25. Committing crimes against humanity is standard operating procedure for Israel.

What this report proves is what everyone in the world already knows.