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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 08:03 AM
Original message
Report: Israeli troops fired on Gazans waving white flags
Report: Israeli troops fired on Gazans waving white flags

By Dion Nissenbaum | McClatchy Newspapers


JERUSALEM — Israeli soldiers battling Hamas militants last winter in Gaza opened fire on at least seven groups of Palestinian civilians who were carrying white flags, killing 11 people, according to a Human Rights Watch report released Thursday.

During the three-week conflict, the U.S.-based human rights group says, Israeli soldiers in separate parts of Gaza killed five women, four children and two men as they used white flags to try to escape the battle zone.

The report raises new questions about the actions of Israeli soldiers during the military offensive. A United Nations investigation into possible war crimes continues. McClatchy documented in January one of the instances that Thursday's report outlines.

"The Israeli military needs to investigate," said Fred Abrahams, a Human Rights Watch investigator who conducted research in Gaza on some of the cases. "We want the IDF (Israel Defense Forces) to get to the bottom of it."

more...

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/politics/story/73598.html
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. Deleted message
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. HRW Urges Israel to Investigate Gaza Civilian Killings
The U.S. group Human Rights Watch is urging Israeli leaders to thoroughly investigate reports that soldiers shot and killed civilians who were carrying white flags during Israel's 22-day assault on the Gaza Strip six months ago.

The report is the latest in a series of accusations that Human Rights Watch has made this year pointing to what the group says was the wrongful behavior of Israeli troops during the Gaza offensive.

Human Rights Watch Deputy Middle East Director Joe Stork tells VOA the report looked at seven incidents during the operation in which Israeli soldiers shot and killed 11 civilians, nine of whom were women and children.

"What sets these cases apart is that in these incidents, the individuals were waving white flags or were with a group of people holding, waving white flags to convey their civilian status," said Stork. "Despite this, they were shot dead."

http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-08-13-voa17.cfm
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
35. problem is
I have little doubt that Israeli leaders are well aware of the atrocities that took place
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. yeah, the Israeli people don't care either....they love butchering Arabs
Edited on Mon Aug-17-09 08:28 AM by shira
especially women, children, and old folks.

:sarcasm:
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. no one here has suggested that
Why would you post it?

:shrug:
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. because your posts imply exactly that - since you believe the IDF and Israel's govt. are.....
murderers of children and thieves, it must be that the Israeli public allows both the govt. and its military to continue to be that way. That they don't care, give a damn, or worse, they support indiscriminate murder and thievery.

It's not the same with Arab militias and their govts......the people in those countries REALLY have no voice or power to affect change.

Israelis do, and your posts imply the majority of Israelis who VOTE and SERVE don't give a shit and are nothing but cold-hearted murderers and thieves.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. The IDF and Israeli leaders *are* murderers and thieves
That does not imply *at all* that the Israeli people are supportive of it!

*You* are the one suggesting that. Not me
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. most Israelis are critical of the govt. and IDF, but don't come to your extreme conclusions
so what gives? Are they:

a) stupid?
b) ignorant?
c) cold blooded assholes?
d) other __________?
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Again, *you* are the one conjuring up these assumptions about Israeli people
Not me.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. can you try answering my last post?
and while you're at it, compare "collateral damage" in Aghanistan and Pakistan (think drone bombings alone which are many times worse than any collateral damage by the IDF) and tell me why you think Americans are more accepting of this collateral damage than Israelis.
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Can you resist making Israeli people the focus for attack?
Your persistent, suggestive speculation against them is troubling.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. okay, so much for Israeli people - how about Americans? Why do you think Americans are so...
apathetic to what US forces are doing in Afghanistan and Pakistan in comparison to Israelis who don't have the stomach for such civilian casualties? If Israel is murderous, what does that say for America and the way it wages war, even under the Obama administration? Or Great Britain for that matter? Are they worse in your opinion?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. HRW needs to be removed from the I/P conflict - they're doing more harm than good
Edited on Fri Aug-14-09 12:01 AM by shira
check out this youtube video of Hamas operatives using Gazans as shields while waving a white flag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uOug-mN3Tw

odd how HRW missed this in their research, isn't it?

===================================

HRW also has the nerve to use testimony from a certain Gazan whose different accounts months ago were irreconcilable THEN - and they are just as irreconcilable and unreliable NOW as they were then.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=255218&mesg_id=259010

proving once again that HRW will use any testimony, however unreliable, to smear Israel.

===================================

what HRW is still attempting to do, and is allowed to get away with, is nothing short of disgusting.

:puke:

HRW is killing the human rights movement.....but who cares....so long as Israel is demonized.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. 20 page summary of recent IDF report on OCL - showing why HRW reports cannot be taken seriously
Edited on Fri Aug-14-09 06:36 AM by shira
excerpt:

Well, if you believe them, it's the authority of international law. They know all about it while the rest of us and our benighted establishment wallow in ignorance or malice. So convinced are they of their superiority that they neglect even to substantiate their theses, stating theircorrectness is enough. They are incessantly reinforced by reporters and pundits the world over, who reflexively reach for the terminology of international law to expose the shortcomings of Israel's actions.

There is an unfortunate reaction to this posturing. The centrality of international law and institutions in international affairs is largely a response to the atrocities of Nazism and the murder of Jews which was its core. If the world's response to the Shoah is to formulate principles which forbid the Jews from defending their political sovereignty and their very lives, many of us say, then a pox on the international order. The cards cannot always be stacked against the Jews with the Jews never responding – that's our lesson from the Shoah.

Last week the State of Israel finally gave a better response. It came in the form of a long, detailed and reasoned description of the principles of international law, and their application to the war with Hamas. The Operation in Gaza, December 27th 2008 – 18th January 2009; Factual and Legal Aspects. You can find it online at the website of the Foreign Ministry, here, PDF here.

The authors of the document recognize, accept, and embrace international law. Their thesis is not that it interferes with Israel's ability to defend itself. On the contrary, it supplies Israel with the tools to legitimately combat its enemies while demanding the support of the international community. Anyone who respects international law must step forward to Israel's side as it follows the letter and spirit of the law in rejecting criminal attacks on its people.

A more refreshing position can hardly be imagined. If anyone should be apologizing, it should be Israel's critics. Their entire narrative is turned on its head; the report documents how they cynically employ the terminology of international law in contradiction to its intent. Rather than conflicting with the right of the Jews, it reinforces them.


The report has 164 pages, with an executive summary and glossary. There are 287 footnotes, with probably 500 citations. They range from newspaper stories through United Nations reports, documents from the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, Hague Conventions, Geneva Conventions, court decisions from various countries, and many academic papers from America, Canada, Europe, India, Singapore and Malaysia. There are even citations from the websites of alleged Israeli human rights organizations. The tone is carefully calm and academic. Its authors expect readers to be swayed by facts, logic and academic provenance.




http://docs.google.com/View?id=dgxshts6_60dzqxdngv
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. the IDF report and this 20 page summary is 'MUST READING'
Edited on Fri Aug-14-09 06:59 AM by shira
34. The final core proposition that runs through this Paper is that, while the principles of customary international law may be “basic” and can be simply stated, they nevertheless must be applied with analytical rigor. Reports by non-governmental organisations and rapporteurs and committees acting under mandates from international organisations too often jump from reporting tragic incidents involving the death or injury of civilians during armed combat, to the assertion of sweeping conclusions within a matter of hours, days or weeks, that the reported casualties ipso facto demonstrate violations of international law, or even “war crimes.”14 Often, these leaps of logic bypass the most basic steps, such as identification of the specific legal obligation at issue and explanation of how it was violated. The depth of feeling in the face of civilian losses is understandable, but it does not excuse this rush to judgment. It is a fundamental precept of the rule of law that any legal inquiry about events relating to armed conflicts cannot assume the conclusion, particularly a conclusion that — as shown below — proper application of the law does not sustain.


"Such a simple idea: merely reporting on destructions tells us nothing about the legal or moral stature of its authors. Motive, intention, measures taken on both sides, all must be scrutinized. Simple as Columbus' Egg."
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. one more excerpt - on what HRW is not reporting or investigating honestly or seriously
Edited on Fri Aug-14-09 07:52 AM by shira
Launching the operation can be defended by the principles of international law. The certainty that some innocent bystanders would be killed and property destroyed do not make the method of waging the war illegal; for that determination one must apply rigorous empirical and legal criteria. Having established these principles, the report turns its attention to the behavior of Hamas and its practice of war. The purpose of this section is not to win brownie points by stating that Hamas unlike Israel never heeds international law although that's obviously true. Rather, the section describes how Hamas insistence on illegal behavior impacts the field of battle and the local decisions which confronted the IDF commanders.

Staging attacks from residential areas and schools, using medical facilities and ambulances, and many other illegal actions forced IDF commanders to take them into account. If international law requires of a state that it protect its own civilians, and the civilians are being shot at from schools, for example, the state is still required to protect its citizens. (Pages 52-75 of the report).


HRW purposely minimizes and largely ignores how Hamas illegally wages war on Israel (and ultimately against their own Palestinian civilians). This is disgusting in itself and shows how HRW cannot be bothered with real human rights violations. If it were up to them, Hamas would continue to do this indefinately and toy with Palestinian lives and human rights as they wish, without appropriate HRW condemnation.

But without informing their readers on Hamas tactics and strategies - and therefore almost never reporting on Hamas' deliberate use of human shielding - like illegal use of ambulances, firing rockets from schools and hospitals or in-between apartment buildings (all deliberately) or hiding behind human shields waving white flags, etc., HRW is leaving the impression with its readers and followers at the UN that Israel's war efforts are mostly criminal and deserve hostile international criticism - in other words, IDF actions for the most part cannot be explained, according to HRW, due to Hamas exploitation of human shields. HRW is acting as one of Hamas' main propaganda outlets, just as they served Hezbollah similarly in 2006.

When HRW does sometimes report on Hamas human shields, the impression left is that these are exceptions to the rule and that IDF actions are NEVER explained within the context of this primary battle strategy of Hamas. HRW may as well be stating, yes it happens but....these incidents have nothing whatsoever to do with IDF actions that take a toll on civilians. Hamas takes no blame for civilian deaths according to HRW. It's best that Hamas is allowed to continue to use Palestinians as their expendable pawns so that Israel is demonized - all in the interests of "peace". This is HRW's modus operandi.

HRW's intense hatred of Israel knows no bounds. They're more than willing - as "pro-Palestinians" :) - to help Hamas accomplish its goals - even if it means sacrificing thousands more Palestinians who act either willingly or against their will as Hamas shields.

What's worse is there are plenty of self-proclaimed 'progressives' at DU who support HRW's nefarious efforts and pretend they are concerned about human rights.

:puke:
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Sezu Donating Member (920 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. When it comes to Israel HRW is full of
horseshit.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. That's what you say about any group or person who dares criticise Israel...
So what's new? I guess I could ask you to explain what you find to be horsesht in the report this thread is about, but then I'd be having to assume you've read it, which I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have done...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. if asked by any blind defender of HRW to support your statement, feel free to point to posts #3,7,8
Edited on Sat Aug-15-09 06:34 AM by shira
In posts #3,7,8 it's not only what HRW reports but what they do NOT report that is so misleading.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Operation_Gaza_factual_and_legal_aspects_use_of_force_Hamas_breaches_law_of_armed_conflict_5_Aug_200.htm

The IDF's actions cannot be honestly explained WITHOUT the above context, which HRW minimizes or largely ignores. Hamas' main battle strategies define how the IDF reacts and responds to Hamas. Erase the context, and of course it looks like the IDF is bullying the poor defenseless Gazans.

:eyes:

Also, HRW's report is based entirely on testimonies from Palestinian witnesses who have great motivation for demonizing Israel. HRW's "witnesses" in the past attested to the IDF's culpability in hoaxes like Muhammad al-Dura and Jenin, and HRW never apologizes or prints retractions for its libel, which should call HRW's credibility and integrity into question in any future reports.

Imagine the high standards involved in their interviewing process:

HRW (approaches Palestinian on Gaza street): “I’m an International Human Rights Investigator. Were you an eyewitness to any Israeli war crimes recently?”
Palestinian: “Was I? You bet! I saw them shoot 11 women and children.”
HRW (writing furiously): “Anything else?”
Palestinian: “Yes, then they raped my mother-in-law.”
HRW (still writing): “Thanks for your testimony!”

http://fresnozionism.org/2009/08/a-blood-libel-disguised-as-an-investigative-report/

Not one incident of alleged warcrimes or serious mispractice against the IDF has been proven from OCL.

Not one.
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Sezu Donating Member (920 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Yeah. For the life of me, I can't imagine
how supposedly intelligent people MISS the anti-Israeli bias of HRW and their shoddy investigations. Course, after the Saudi fund raising event it's clear that the bias is what pays the bills.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. haters can't be bothered with proof of HRW's inhumane record regarding I/P
Edited on Sat Aug-15-09 08:21 AM by shira
others just want to fit in or feel they're important criticizing Israel - they simply feel the need to fight or advocate for some cause so why not this one - and proof of HRW's collaboration with Hamas is a major downer in their "us versus them" or "we are good and righteous, they're not" mentality. Better to shove all the evidence aside and credit it all to "RW pro-Israel zealot extremists", or 'them'. "Nothing to see here".

:eyes:

Pretty sad.

============

That link to the MFA on Hamas shielding is devastating to their view on I/P. Here it is again:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Operation_Gaza_factual_and_legal_aspects_use_of_force_Hamas_breaches_law_of_armed_conflict_5_Aug_200.htm

I'd be shocked if they admitted it's generally all true. If they did, they'd have to admit HRW is not doing it's job criticizing Hamas (therefore standing up for Palestinian human rights) and that HRW is unfairly attacking Israel by largely minimizing and ignoring all this as context explaining IDF actions.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. There was no Saudi fund-raising event....
I've already posted information about this in the thread:

HRW explicitly states the policy on its website, where it says it is "supported by contributions from private individuals and foundations worldwide".

Furthermore, Whitson disputed the characterisation of the dinner as a fundraising event.

A Saudi HRW supporter, Emad bin Jameel Al-Hejailan, organised the dinner, initially reported on May 26 by the English-language Saudi outlet the Arab News.

"Our host organised a dinner for us among his friends - some civil society, businessmen, human rights activists and journalists," Whitson told IPS. "We talked about our work."

"This was not a fundraising dinner where people had to buy tickets to attend dinner," she said. "We didn't actually walk away with checks."

Though the WSJ version didn't, the original version of Bernstein's post on the website 'the Volokh Conspiracy' linked to the Arab News story on the dinner, on which the post appears to largely be based.

Noting criticism of Israel, the Arab News story says, "Keeping with its mission of even-handed criticism, Human Rights Watch has also leveled criticism at other states in the region, including Saudi Arabia."

However, the WSJ article by Bernstein says, "Apparently, Ms. Whitson found no time to criticize Saudi Arabia's abysmal human rights record."

Bernstein goes on to claim that HRW doesn't have "the felt need to discuss any of the Saudis' manifold human rights violations".

"We certainly highlighted our report on white phosphorus in Gaza" – a March report on Israel's banned use of the chemical over civilian centres – "because it was the most recent report we had released and there is a lot of interest in that in the region, and our work in Saudi Arabia," Whitson told IPS.

"There was far more interest in our work in Saudi Arabia than we expected," Whitson added. "We thought there would be much more caution and sensitivity about our work on Saudi Arabia."

The accusation of impropriety has also morphed into a claim that not only did HRW inappropriately highlight work in Israel during its Saudi Arabia trip, but that it also sought to raise funds from government officials.

That claim was made by Atlantic blogger Jeffery Goldberg after an e-mail exchange with HRW executive director Ken Roth and later, citing Goldberg, reiterated by Block in an e-mail to IPS.

Goldberg said that Roth had acknowledged that "the director of Human Rights Watch's Middle East division is attempting to raise funds from Saudis, including a member of the Shura Council ."

However, in the e-mail excerpts cited by Goldberg, Roth emphatically restated the HRW policy on not collecting government funds, and said only that "a guy from the national human rights commission and someone from the Shura Council" were at the dinner in question – not that they were solicited for funds.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=47685

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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. I have looked at fresnozionism, and it seems VERY biased
The blogger is against not only HRW, but moderate/left-wing Israeli and pro-Israeli organizations, such as J Street (the most recent entry is 'J Street's Treason Exposed'), Americans for Peace Now ('doing their best to screw Israel') and the New Israel Fund. (S)he also posted quite a lot of criticisms of the previous Israeli government for not being hawkish *enough* toward the Palestinians.

This also involves some assumptions contrary to fact; e.g. on Hamas prisoners in Israeli jails "Any other country in the world would have put them to death". Not so; many countries in the wprld do not have the death penalty.


The blog could happen to be right about particular instances, just as Electronic Intifada might; but I would not treat either as an objective source.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-16-09 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. biased? it's a progressive zionist blog just like this link:
Edited on Sun Aug-16-09 08:19 AM by shira
http://www.zionism-israel.com/log/

or this one:

http://www.bluetruth.net/

these are progressive zionist blogs - what some here would call blogs of "Israel-firsters", but because you personally disagree with them they're "biased"? How about arguing they're wrong based on the merits, or lack thereof, in their arguments?

maybe it's best to ask - which I/P blogs do you believe to be objective?

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FarrenH Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. Theres nothing progressive about your first link at all
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #34
45. ProgressiveZionism? You think that's false advertising?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
4. HRW really needs to stop picking on Israel!!
How dare they ask that Israel investigate the deaths of Palestinian civilians! This just proves they hate Israel and want to see it destroyed! ;)
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stranger81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. Leave Britney alone!!!!! [n/t]
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Exactly. It's the same sort of mentality n/t
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
6. Here's a link to the report....
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UndertheOcean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
10. Televised report of event
Edited on Fri Aug-14-09 09:42 AM by UndertheOcean
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. check out the hateful comments at youtube under this video - a case study of HRW incitement
Edited on Fri Aug-14-09 01:41 PM by shira
HRW's goal isn't human rights - it's what's in the comments section at youtube.
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UndertheOcean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I learned not to read online comments on Youtube or Haaretz.
Edited on Fri Aug-14-09 02:19 PM by UndertheOcean
not good for my blood pressure.

HRW is concerned about human life , and you are concerned with youtube comments , your priorities are marvelous.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. if you really believe HRW is concerned with human life, look at posts #3,7, and 8 above
and let me know what you think, okay?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Yeah, they're consistant with the loony-tune brigade from both extremes...
What next? Some twit somewhere will carry on like HRW themselves write the comments at these places? Anyway, you've got it spot on with what you said. And thanks for posting that link, btw....
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subsuelo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-17-09 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
42. youtube comments now constitute proof of HRW anti-Israel incitement???
:rofl:

Seriously????

:crazy:
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Lakrosse Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
18. the same HRW that takes its money from
Saudi Arabia to fight the "Israel 'lobby.'" yes. we're supposed to believe them about anything in the ME.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. That's not true at all. HRW did not take any money from Saudi Arabia...
How difficult would it be for you to do a basic fact check before posting?
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Lakrosse Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. wow you have a short memory
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. No, more like you just swallow false propaganda...
Edited on Fri Aug-14-09 09:53 PM by Violet_Crumble
...and apart from that don't really comprehend what it is yr posting links to. That first link you posted contained nothing to support the now-debunked claim (which you posted in yr second link) that HRW took any funding from the Saudis. The third link confirms that HRW did not take any Saudi funding. If what yr trying to suggest is that HRW should not accept members from individuals living in countries that commit human rights abuses, that would apply to Israelis as well as citizens of Saudi Arabia, and I would be totally opposed to that sort of discrimination against individuals based on where they live. I find it sad, but entirely predictable that you wouldn't appear to have a problem with that...


This article was posted here in the I/P forum and shows that HRW did not accept funds from the Saudis, the dinner was not a fund-raising dinner, and the Saudi govt was criticised by HRW, all things that the WSJ story, AIPAC, and the Israeli govt have outright lied about.

U.S.-Based Leading Rights Group Denies Improprieties

NEW YORK, Jul 16 (IPS) - After its May trip to Saudi Arabia recently garnered attention, New York-based Human Rights Watch (HRW) has come under a hailstorm of criticism by defenders of Israeli policy who claim that the trip raises ethical questions about HRW's work in the Middle East.

The allegations were based on an article in the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) online opinion section - a reprint of a month-old blog post by George Mason University law professor David Bernstein - that accused HRW staff of going to Saudi Arabia "to raise money from wealthy Saudis by highlighting HRW's demonisation of Israel".

HRW denied any impropriety, noting that it raises money from private sources worldwide - not governments - and that it highlighted all of its work in the region during the Saudi Arabia trip.

"The point of my post," wrote Bernstein, "is not that HRW is pro-Saudi, but that it is maniacally anti-Israel."

The allegations have filtered their way up to the Israeli government and its most staunch defenders in the U.S., including the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), one of Washington's most powerful interest groups and the hub of the so-called "Israel lobby".

"For an organisation that claims to offer moral direction," Israeli government spokesperson Mark Regev told the Jerusalem Post on Wednesday, "it appears that Human Rights Watch has seriously lost its moral compass."

An AIPAC spokesperson forwarded the WSJ article to reporters. Asked by IPS if sending out the article represented an endorsement of its contents by AIPAC, the spokesperson, Josh Block, said by e-mail that it didn't. But he did accuse HRW of "Israel-bashing" and wrote, "HRW has repeatedly demonstrated its anti-Israel bias."

However, of more than 30 releases in June and July from its Middle East and North Africa division, HRW was critical of Israel in only three of them, whereas Saudi Arabia was criticised five times, and Israel's regional archrival, Iran, racked up nine critical releases.

HRW has responded by insisting the trip, taken in late May, was in no way to raise money from the Saudi government or Saudi officials, citing a policy that they take no money from governments, "directly or indirectly".

"Just to be clear, we've never solicited any money from any government official or government," Sarah Leah Whitson, the Middle East and North Africa director of HRW who was named in the WSJ post as a participant on the trip, told IPS.

HRW explicitly states the policy on its website, where it says it is "supported by contributions from private individuals and foundations worldwide".

Furthermore, Whitson disputed the characterisation of the dinner as a fundraising event.

A Saudi HRW supporter, Emad bin Jameel Al-Hejailan, organised the dinner, initially reported on May 26 by the English-language Saudi outlet the Arab News.

"Our host organised a dinner for us among his friends - some civil society, businessmen, human rights activists and journalists," Whitson told IPS. "We talked about our work."

"This was not a fundraising dinner where people had to buy tickets to attend dinner," she said. "We didn't actually walk away with checks."

Though the WSJ version didn't, the original version of Bernstein's post on the website 'the Volokh Conspiracy' linked to the Arab News story on the dinner, on which the post appears to largely be based.

Noting criticism of Israel, the Arab News story says, "Keeping with its mission of even-handed criticism, Human Rights Watch has also leveled criticism at other states in the region, including Saudi Arabia."

However, the WSJ article by Bernstein says, "Apparently, Ms. Whitson found no time to criticize Saudi Arabia's abysmal human rights record."

Bernstein goes on to claim that HRW doesn't have "the felt need to discuss any of the Saudis' manifold human rights violations".

"We certainly highlighted our report on white phosphorus in Gaza" – a March report on Israel's banned use of the chemical over civilian centres – "because it was the most recent report we had released and there is a lot of interest in that in the region, and our work in Saudi Arabia," Whitson told IPS.

"There was far more interest in our work in Saudi Arabia than we expected," Whitson added. "We thought there would be much more caution and sensitivity about our work on Saudi Arabia."

The accusation of impropriety has also morphed into a claim that not only did HRW inappropriately highlight work in Israel during its Saudi Arabia trip, but that it also sought to raise funds from government officials.

That claim was made by Atlantic blogger Jeffery Goldberg after an e-mail exchange with HRW executive director Ken Roth and later, citing Goldberg, reiterated by Block in an e-mail to IPS.

Goldberg said that Roth had acknowledged that "the director of Human Rights Watch's Middle East division is attempting to raise funds from Saudis, including a member of the Shura Council ."

However, in the e-mail excerpts cited by Goldberg, Roth emphatically restated the HRW policy on not collecting government funds, and said only that "a guy from the national human rights commission and someone from the Shura Council" were at the dinner in question – not that they were solicited for funds.

Despite that, the AIPAC spokesperson restated Goldberg's mistaken claim in an e-mail to IPS.

"HRW has repeatedly demonstrated its anti-Israel bias," Block wrote. "And for an organization that claims to be objective about human rights to go hat in hand to raise money from the Saudi ruling elite, while bragging about and seeking to further its Israel-bashing is deeply revealing of the group's fundamental hypocrisy."

While AIPAC remained steadfast, the author of the original WSJ post backed down from some of his initial accusations.

"If Ms. Whitson did indeed discuss Saudi human rights abuses during her trip, I apologize for suggesting otherwise," wrote Bernstein Wednesday in the comment section of a Think Progress blog addressing the attacks on HRW.

However, Bernstein maintained that "it's extremely unwise for a human rights group to raise money in a totalitarian country, even from human rights advocates in that country."

Whitson said the claim had no grounds, noting that the notion "that any money from Saudi Arabia is tainted because it comes from a country with a totalitarian ruling regime is a gross generalisation."

"The ethnic background of our donors is irrelevant to the work we do," Whitson told IPS. "It's not relevant to our work in Israel that many, many of our donors are Jewish. And it's not relevant for the work that we do that we get money from Arab countries."

"Should people be criticising us for the fact that much of our support base is made up of Jews?" Whitson said. "Should that imply that our work on Israel is in fact too soft?"


http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=47685
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Lakrosse Donating Member (78 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. who has proven this false?
I haven't seen it.


Not everything that isn't "Israel is the roote of all evil" is "propaganda."
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-14-09 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Go back and read the article I posted....
And unlike you, I'm aware of what constitutes propaganda. It has nothing to do with Israel being evil or not (do you get paid by someone for each time you utter the word 'evil'? It's just that it's very lame and childish), and as I don't see Israel as being evil or pure or anything that stupid, maybe you should take yr routine to someone who'll get into it more?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. it's not a debunked claim - a Saudi official from the kingdom's Shura council was there....
Edited on Sat Aug-15-09 05:56 AM by shira
to thoroughly enjoy hearing Whitson from HRW bash Israel as well as Israel's supporters. FYI, the Shura council functions to make certain that the Wahabi interpretation of sharia law is followed - for example, you can bet no women drove themselves to this dinner (they're not allowed).

It's a complete joke to pretend human rights defenders and supporters from S.Arabia arrived at this dinner due to their genuine concern for all human rights worldwide - as would happen in western countries. Any citizen of S.Arabia truly supportive of human rights there would fear for his/her life anytime they criticise the kingdom. The official from the Shura council (and who knows who else was in attendance) was there to not only enjoy the bashing, but also see to it that his Kingdom's INHUMANE wahabi interpretation of sharia law was maintained throughout.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. As if Saudi Arabia would know anything about human rights
Women there suffer the worst lack of rights of anywhere in the arab world (and it is bad throughout the Arab world, just happens to be worst in SA).
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Not sure what yr point is. No-one's saying anything different....
Though as usual the way you give Israel a complete pass on its human rights violations is a complete double standard.....
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. No,only that it is ironic that Saudi Arabia has anything to say about human rights at all
considering that they know nothing about the topic as exhibited by the laws in their own country.

They should get their own house in order first, before villifying Israel.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-15-09 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Are you talking about individual citizens when you say Saudi Arabia?
Or are you talking about the government?
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