Maybe it's time we believe the Palestinians (Amira Hass)

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi has difficulty believing the soldiers' testimonies that they intentionally harmed Palestinian civilians, because the Israel Defense Forces is a moral army, he said on Sunday.

On the other hand, he believes the soldiers because they "have no reason to lie." Then again, Ashkenazi is convinced that if what they said is true, these are isolated incidents.

Ashkenazi reacted like most Israelis - as though the reports, including those in Haaretz and Maariv, were the first about the Gaza offensive that were issued by someone other than the military spokesman or the military reporters, who rely on him for their information.

But ample information was available from Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch reports, based on statements collected from hundreds of people in the Gaza Strip in January and February.

Ashkenazi, like other Israelis, could have read the Red Cross' protest during the offensive, that the IDF prevented medical teams from reaching wounded Palestinians by shooting at them. He or his aides could have gone to the Web site set up by Israeli human rights organizations, which was full of reports and testimonies.

His aides, had they wanted to, could have found the many questions foreign reporters sent to the IDF spokesman, seeking Ashkenazi's comments before they filed their stories. They had details about families killed by IDF shells and bombs in their homes, about the lethal white phosphorus shells and about the shooting of civilians waving white flags. The had cataloged the massive destruction of plants, orchards, fields, cowsheds and apartment buildings. Much evidence of these outrages was also published inside Haaretz."

<snip>

"Ashkenazi chose to look surprised, as though he were an ordinary Israeli citizen disregarding reports from parties other than the IDF, because they were based on Palestinian testimonies. Most Israelis "know" Palestinians lie, so their statements should not be taken seriously."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1073469.html



Ashkenazi: IDF is a ‘moral’ army

<snip>

"Israel's top general called the army "moral" and "humane" following reports concerning soldier's actions in Gaza.

Speaking to new recruits Monday at the Meitav army base, Chief of the General Staff Lt.-Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi addressed reports concerning soldiers' behavior while serving during the military incursion known as Operation Cast Lead.

"I've known the IDF for many years, and as the person who accompanied the preparations for Operation Cast Lead, briefed the commanders in the field, and is well aquainted with commanders and soldiers of the IDF, I tell you that this is a moral and ideological army," Ashkenazi said.

The Criminal Investigation Division of the Israel Defense Forces' Military Police is investigating the accusations.

"I don't believe that soldiers serving in the IDF hurt civilians in cold blood, but we shall wait for the results of the investigation," Ashkenazi said, adding that the IDF "is the most humane army in the world."

more

[Idealism]

1. I am reminded of a certain poster on DU that said if the IDF did these things, it would come out

because they are "full of doctors, journalists, and teachers" and that if these things happened, we would hear of them in reports and first-hand accounts- because they wouldn't "stand for" this type of immoral behavior. Now that they have come out, it is quite telling that this poster has decided to call these first-hand accounts "rumors," and work hard to discredit such testimonies as unsubstantiated.

It would be comical, if it wasn't so sad.

[IndianaGreen]

2. Their moral universe is a house of cards

and it is collapsing all around them. Like fundamentalists, they are frightened of any facts that challenges their simplistic view of things.

[Idealism]

3. Indeed. n/t

[azurnoir]

4. I think you give way too much credit

for some the "ends" justify the means

[shira]

5. you so want to believe the worst, don't you? it's maddening to you that this is yet another example

of a report or allegation that is way overblown, you see that it is overblown, you want it to prove the worst, it doesn't - and it just drives you nuts, doesn't it? Sorry, this isn't the 'smoking gun' you've been salivating for.

Here are the 2 major allegations again from last week:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x266838#266903

That testimony in no way indicates deliberate or intentional indiscriminate murder. You'd like to believe that's exactly what is being reported, and you have no problem with the fact that this is yet another overhyped example, like Jenin or the UN school building, in which Israel is once again defamed and demonized - feeding haters and creating new ones.

Really now, these overblown and overhyped stories can be found daily at JihadWatch, which is now unfortunately about as credible a source as any when compared to this. It was disappointing for many to find out that Jenin 2002 wasn't all that it was hyped up to be. Same for the UN school building. Al-Dura. Gaza beach. Qana. And on and on. Now this, another overhyped defamation. But what the hell, right.....so long as Muslims aren't being demonized and Jews are, no prob.

[Violet_Crumble]

6. I'm heading to search for that post now...

Sorry, but I do find that sort of self-contradiction to be comical and par for the course.... :)

on edit: or someone could feel sorry for me trying to use the crappy DU search engine and just PM a link to me...

[Sezu]

8. And after it "came out," the ones who talked admitted they

had witnessed NOTHING but were repeating things they had heard and some of them had never been IN Gaza.

But you don't care about that do you? It gets in the way of a good demonizing. And it isn't "a poster who is claiming," it's JOURNALISTS who interviewed the men and found out the subterfuge. But you just gotta keep going with it don't you. Facts, you don't need no steenkin' facts!

[Violet_Crumble]

9. Where's the link to where they all admitted they were repeating things they heard...

Most of them were talking about their own experiences in Gaza. Do you need a link to the 'shooting and crying' article that Shira posted here to refresh yr memory?

[Douglas Carpenter]

10. Hareetz has said that they will be publishing the testimony of a number of soldiers accounts over

the next several days.

IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement

By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html



The testimonies include a description by an infantry squad leader of an incident where an IDF sharpshooter mistakenly shot a Palestinian mother and her two children. "There was a house with a family inside .... We put them in a room. Later we left the house and another platoon entered it, and a few days after that there was an order to release the family. They had set up positions upstairs. There was a sniper position on the roof," the soldier said.

"The platoon commander let the family go and told them to go to the right. One mother and her two children didn't understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof they had let them go and it was okay, and he should hold his fire and he ... he did what he was supposed to, like he was following his orders."

According to the squad leader: "The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him, closer than the lines he was told no one should pass. He shot them straight away. In any case, what happened is that in the end he killed them.

"I don't think he felt too bad about it, because after all, as far as he was concerned, he did his job according to the orders he was given. And the atmosphere in general, from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to ... I don't know how to describe it .... The lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers. So as far as they are concerned they can justify it that way," he said.

Another squad leader from the same brigade told of an incident where the company commander ordered that an elderly Palestinian woman be shot and killed; she was walking on a road about 100 meters from a house the company had commandeered.

The squad leader said he argued with his commander over the permissive rules of engagement that allowed the clearing out of houses by shooting without warning the residents beforehand. After the orders were changed, the squad leader's soldiers complained that "we should kill everyone there . Everyone there is a terrorist."

The squad leader said: "You do not get the impression from the officers that there is any logic to it, but they won't say anything. To write 'death to the Arabs' on the walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can. I think this is the main thing: To understand how much the IDF has fallen in the realm of ethics, really. It's what I'll remember the most."

More soldiers' testimonies will be published in Haaretz over the coming days.

link to full article:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Yeah, I think the party line is to accuse those soldiers of being liars and gossipmongers...

Like, somewhere, somehow, someone else other than fellow True Believers might nod and go 'that's it! The True Believer is right! I will now squeeze my eyes closed real tight and stick my fingers in my ears and squeal 'I Can't Hear You!!' whenever anything comes out about wrongdoing by the IDF in Gaza' And the True Believer will nod sagely, giving themselves a pat on the back saying 'Job well done!'

Have you read how the military censor is stopping Ha'aretz from publishing the IDF's rules of engagement? Seeing as how the rules of engagement are coming under some attention, it'd make much more sense to publish them rather than keep them under a shroud of secrecy.

[rateyes]

7. Using "moral army" and "Operation Cast Lead" in the same sentence...

Oxymoron.

"Have a taste of morality, you Palestinian dogs," BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM :nuke: :sarcasm: