Fatah publishes names of 181 claimed killed, shot or maimed by de facto government forces in Gaza

[oberliner]

Ramallah – Ma’an – A senior leader within Fatah slammed what he called “Hamas crimes against patriotic people” in the Gaza Strip Monday.

The comments come after a string of reports of human rights violations committed by Palestinians against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip during the Israeli war on Gaza.

The Undersecretary of the caretaker government’s Ministry of Prisoners Affairs Ziyad Abu Ein spoke out against the rights violations and accused Hamas of “terrorism,” and said they were preventing media outlets in Gaza report on their crimes.

“Our people badly need a free press capable of protecting the truth,” he said, noting that the truth was all that could counter the “terrorist procedures against patriotic Palestinians.”

http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=35455

[Jim Sagle]

1. And here I thought I/P threads always stirred avid interest. Guess not...

;)

[Vegasaurus]

3. No one cares about the these dead Fatah members

or the 11 Million dead Muslims, killed by other Muslims.

Strange that fratricide and honor killings and executions of people from other factions or beliefs excused, but everyone here blows a gasket if Israel tries to protect herself from terrorists and fanatics.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Douglas Carpenter]

16. "just like everyone picked on apartheid South Africa when all kinds of carnage

and slaughter were happening all over Africa with blacks killing each other, then everyone blew a gasket whenever South Africa tried to defend itself from terrorist and fanatics."

Do you really think broad brush attacks against Arab and Muslim people worldwide helps the security of Israeli people? Will it make the ability of Israeli people to live in peace come one day earlier?

You know, anti-Semites (REAL anti-Semites) find it very easy to make broad-brush attacks against Jewish people worldwide - frequently utilizing hyperbole and twisted half truths and even distorting Jewish sacred writings and religious beliefs to make make their point.

That is certainly not helpful and I have spent a lifetime trying to correct that kind of destructive nonsense, especially with people within the Arab and Muslim world.

Go ahead and attack and criticize Arab and Muslim political organizations or the actions or policies of Arab or Muslim governments - that is far game - and most of the Arab and Muslim world would at least partly agree.

But broad-brush attacks against Arab people or Muslim people or Jewish people or Black people or anyone else does no good for anyone. And there is a difference between attacking policies and practices that ones own government are partially responsible for and attacking policies and practices which ones own government opposes.


I just cannot imagine any good coming out of mutual disrespect.

[Alamuti Lotus]

8. nah, most get ignored or lost in the shuffle

high turnover, you see, often difficult to keep track of the pieces of interest.

As for the original article above -- I am shocked, just SHOCKED to learn that there is conflict between Hamas & Fatah. It's almost like, they're rivals or something.. Next thing you know, they'll be saying all kinds of mean stuff about each other, trying to make the other look bad.. And then maybe US/Israel will start taking sides, trying to promote one over the other, possibly failing miserably at every turn. Nah, that's all too crazy, none of this would ever happen.

[ohio2007]

2. Fatah and Hamas bring thier tiff to Rep Ellison, congressman from Mn

picked your horse?
Then place your bet.


10 min vid;


Moderate and Extremist Palestinian Supporters Square Off in Minnesota, Hamas collides with Fatah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhOW__RKx_U

[azurnoir]

9. Geebus so that is what the guy with video camera was up to

Minnesotans against terrorism what a larf the man here who we''ll call Fatah leader ('cause it suits my narrative) anyway that is one of the most distorted videos I have ever seen and I have also never heard of this supposed group as far as bringing it to Keith Ellison perhaps then they should have chosen his office mind you I live a few blocks from where this took place and actually saw some it.

[azurnoir]

13. More on Minnesotans against terrorism

They are a ProIsraeli group who are also distributing "Obsession" the same video that was included in newspapers nation wide during the run up to the Presidential elections in an attempt to smear Obama

http://www.minnesotansagainstterrorism.org/

[ohio2007]

23. Got any more on the guy with the green scarf ?

He seemed to be rather pro hamas and not wanting to listen to the Mn congressman at all once he found out he wasn't going to show up throwing shoes at "Minnesotans against terrorism"

[Idealism]

5. How many Hamas were imprisoned by Fatah forces?

I know it isn't close to 181 claimed dead, but for posterity sake, anyone know?

[Alamuti Lotus]

6. over 200 quietly snatched so far

many turned over to Israeli forces; but Fatah officials are not, by any means, to be considered possible collaborators.

[azurnoir]

10. No never collaborators especially

not the ones shooting rockets from Gaza why their trying to help their Hamas brothers :sarcasm:

[Alamuti Lotus]

11. curious, that is

Many Gaza units of Tanzim & Kitaeb al-Aqsa broke off from Fatah at various points and linked up with Hamas or PRC others loyal to Marwan Barghouti (somewhere in limbo at the moment), and on the other hand some rogue 'security' elements also remain as loyal spies to the defeated stooge Dahlan. There are ten resistance factions that are tentatively a party to Hamas' tentative ceasefire, of course Fatah & al-Aqsa are not among them and have no reason whatsoever to make life easy for the Haniyah government in Gaza. Can't quite tell who is making waves -- well, except the obvious troika of "vote for me" goons on the other side using any excuse to make themselves look good.
On edit, Indeed, it is very clear that Livni is one whose actions are very clear; who the dance partner on the other end, a little murky.
Israel (Livni) rules out Hamas contacts, threatens force

[azurnoir]

14. Don't know whoTzipis partner is

but I will venture a guess of Fayyad or Abbas as to the rest of politics it sounds like trying to "go with the flow" in a vortex

[Igel]

12. Were they included in the death toll?

Seriously, I've been trying to come up with plausible excuses for the demographic skewing in so many of the reports. The skew's fairly consistent.

43 people killed near a school. >50% are men, and over half of the non-men are minors.

But > 50% of the population are minors, and about half of the adult population is male.

Same for the overall death toll. 225 or so minors, 180 or so women, and 800 men. And still, >50% of the population are minors, and we pretty much have to assume at least a couple of the minors were involved in fighting--one's 18th birthday doesn't suddenly allow one to fight, does it? To make the killings a mix of random civilians and militants, as so many want to consider them, we'd have to say that some 180 of the men were random kills and the other 620 militants, or at least gun-wielders. *That* starts sounding like IDF-speak.

Now, I can see saying that the men sent the women away and stayed behind to hold down the fort. Did the men send away the women and children from the school used as an emergency shelter?

I could see saying that the men were out and about on errands. But given the stories of those killed inside, you'd think that wouldn't skew the demographics *that* much.

I could also see saying that men were disproportionately targeted as potential militants, but then we've moved beyond random targetting of civilians for no reason. If the Hamas-killed Fatah dead are included in the death toll, then that particular skewing of the demographics is less serious. Still a bit confounding, if you ask me, but less serious.

[bemildred]

15. Well, women do stay home a lot, even in western cultures.

Kids might tend to stay home, other things being equal, when there is fighting going on, or even when it's not going on for the young ones.

But it is well-known that teens make the best cannon fodder, anywhere you go. All guts and no brains.

"Sheltering" might have to do with avoiding bombing/shelling at some form of employment rather than running from your home because you got a call.

I think you would have to get specific about the dead persons to draw any meaningful conclusions.

[Idealism]

18. I believe the official counts are still listing all men as militants

Or rather, non-civilians. Also, "children" by most groups is 18 and under. To the IDF, it may be 16 (as some of their Military Orders' say there is a difference between an 18 year old and a 16 year old when they sentence them). Definitely skews the real numbers.

[Name removed]

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[oberliner]

20. I share your disdain for Fatah's continued rocket attacks against Israel

It's a sad situation when the so-called "moderate" group has a "military wing" that has no problem shooting rockets at Israel and continues to work against the interests of peace.

Israel is put in a no-win situation here. If they try to help the Palestinian Authority, then Fatah is perceived as having "taking Israeli money" and therefore distrusted by the Palestinian people. If they express a willingness to talk to Hamas, then they would anger the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority government that they have promised to negotiate with.

One wonders how things can move forward until the Palestinian people are able to address the schism that has led to the creation of two different governments that each reject the legitimacy of the another.

I have no idea what your odd "3/5th of a person" comment is supposed to mean.

[pelsar]

21. i always liked the "coup" story...

its so obvious that working with the US and israel is considered nothing less then traitorous to some... especially when the alternative is a facist theocratic dictatorshp that is implementing shari law (you know .the one that hangs homosexuals, cuts of limbs, forbids schooling for girls-examples across the globe....)..and never hid their intentions.

and then we had the hamas coup, which included throwing people off of buildings and the "usual' executions in the street etc. as opposed to the fatah coup that never actually happened and had little evidence that there was going to be an actual coup.

and this i understand is your preference (hamas govt) to a secular govt that actually works with the US and Israel to a limited degree

sometimes i get confused as to what forum i'm on......

[LeftishBrit]

22. Fatah isn't a particularly nice organization, but does this justify murdering one's own people?

Hamas seems to have killed more Fatah members than Israelis in the latest conflict. They are only pro-Palestinian when the Palestinians in question support them.

And I don't understand what you mean by 'do the same thing to the PLO' - aren't Fatah the main party within the PLO?

[GoesTo11]

24. Hamas killed more Fatah members than Israelis!

Good catch. I think that's true. There were 13 Israeli casualties and 40+ killings of Fatah members. What a great heroic army Hamas had to protect the Palestinians from their worst enemy - Fatah.

[LeftishBrit]

19. This is awful.