Hamas: We will accept long-term truce if Gaza borders opened

[bemildred]

Senior Hamas officials are indicating a willingness to negotiate a deal for a long-term truce with Israel as long as the borders of Gaza are opened to the rest of the world.

"We want to be part of the international community," Hamas leader Ghazi Hamad told The Associated Press this week at the Gaza-Egypt border, where he was coordinating Arab aid shipments. "I think Hamas has no interest now to increase the number of crises in Gaza or to challenge the world."

Hamas is trying hard to flex its muscles in the aftermath of Israel's three-week-long offensive in the Gaza Strip, doling out cash, vowing revenge and declaring victory over "Zionist aggression." But AP interviews with Hamad and two other Hamas leaders in the war-ravaged territory they rule suggest some of that might be more bluster than reality - and the group may be ready for some serious deal making.

That raises the question of whether Hamas, which receives much of its funding and weapons from Tehran, can be coaxed out of Iran's orbit. The question looks less preposterous than it did before U.S. President Barack Obama began extending olive branches to the Muslim world and Israel's Gaza offensive reshuffled Mideast politics.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1059873.html

[Thrill]

1. Didn't President Obama already tell them to open the borders

WTF is Israel up to?

[mike_c]

2. even if Isreal ends the blockade, they'll still CONTROL the borders...

...and you can bet your bottom dollar the next time they want to rampage in Gaza they'll just dishonor any agreement they make in order to force a confrontation, just like this past time. Same as it ever was.

[stray cat]

3. A good chunk of Gaza'a borders are also Israel's borders - so they should control their own.

[mike_c]

4. sure, but Israel uses that control to blockade and starve the Gazans...

...and extends their blockade beyond their own shared borders, as well. That's WAY beyond controlling one's own borders.

But the larger point is that Israel is not an honest negotiating partner where the Palestinians are concerned. My point was that even if Israel agrees to end the blockade-- it can still regulate passage across the border INTO Israel, maintaining normal control of it's borders-- it will inevitably negate the agreement the next time the anti-Palestinian hawks want to flex their muscles and kill a few hundred Palestinians. Likely as not they'll use Palestinian "resistance" against Israeli apartheid as an excuse to move.

You can almost lip synch the rhetoric in advance.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

49. No requirement for them to open their borders to Hamas

One might just as well ask, why are they not coming in via Egypt

[Sal Minella]

5. Gazans are not preventing Israelis from receiving humanitarian medical supplies and food for

starving people.

Controlling the borders of my country is vastly different from limiting/stopping humanitarian aid from crossing the border of another country.

[sabbat hunter]

6. Isn't a country allowed

to control its own borders?

Egypt would control its side of the borders with Gaza as well.

What is wrong with a country controlling its own borders?

[Vegasaurus]

7. No, please pay attention

Israel is the only country that cannot control its own borders, erect a border wall, or respond to acts of war.

Now Egypt, with its ten foot high concrete barrier wall, that they refuse to open to the Palestinians, or to let aid through, is not a problem.

In fact, if Palestinians get too close to the wall, they are shot at.

Double standards abound in this world.

[mike_c]

8. Egypt's border closure is dictated largely by Israel, as you well know....

Don't be disingenuous. Most folks in this forum can see right through it.

[pelsar]

9. huh.....is this part of the israelis control the world syndrom?

I dont think the eyptians know that israel controls their foreign policy.....so please tell us how exactly does israel control egypt...and i really really really promise to not be drinking any coffee when you write your very precise answer with maybe a link or two (that is up todate....)

i guess i cant see to well.....its all that damn fog in gaza these days.....(in the morning)

[mike_c]

21. CRS Report to Congress....

The Egypt-Gaza Border and It's Effects on Israeli-Egyptian Relations alludes to some of these issues, in particular the pressure placed on Egypt by the U.S. acting on Israel's behalf, and Israel's moves to maintain control of the Rafah crossing even after withdrawing from Gaza, despite the appearance that Egypt has full control. Note however, that this document is written very much from an Israel-U.S. perspective, i.e. it does not represent Palestinian interests at all.

Is it "up to date" enough? You'll have to judge. It's a year old, written during the breach last winter. As far as I'm aware, reports for congress on the Egypt-Gaza border situation are not churned out monthly, so this is likely the most recent. I presume it was accurate, within the constraints I mentioned above, at the time of its writing.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL34346.pdf

[pelsar]

36. ooops... may i suggest you try something else..

that one didnt work too well if your trying to prove that israel controls egyptian foreign policy on the gaza border:

Relations with Israel are very
important to me -- do not ruin them....If you disapprove of the way we handle arms
smuggling, you're welcome to do the job yourselves.”
-----

If they continue to push and try to affect Egypt's relationship with the
U.S. and harm Egyptian interests, Egypt will certainly respond and will try to damage
their interests.”

thats that best you got?...and from that you conclude israel controls the border.........

so what is it? first the belief and then the frantic search to find something/anything to justify it....or you read "stormfront" and believe some article there?

[mike_c]

38. I can't believe it took me this long to realize the utter futility...

...of trying to have actual dialog with you.

Welcome to Ignore.

[pelsar]

39. its not futility....make a statement..back it up

i admit to a lack of patient for the "true believers"....your proof wasnt even close to prove anything, infact it proved the exact opposite, that egypt doesnt really care for Israeli interference in their foreign policy.

i apologize for showing you this and understand why you prefer not to pursue it....

[Idealism]

29. I think you are being a bit naive on this point

Egypt has a few reasons to keep the borders closed, but foremost, they don't want to anger Israel (which would in turn anger the United States- the top aid supplier to Egypt).

[pelsar]

40. egypt has a zillion reasons to keep the border closed

and it starts with their own security, the muslim brotherhood and hamas....and they have no problem in angering israel.....

[Idealism]

41. The muslim brotherhood is not a concern

They once were a militant group, but now are just the peaceful opposition to Mubarak. They don't want Hamas and their ideals to spread. God forbid a political party built on resisting authority, anti-corruption, and a rejection of usury.

[pelsar]

42. wow...did you just make that up?

they were once a militant group....but now just peaceful?.......this sounds like the classic "useful idiot" syndrome. Like many others they play with two decks and their history is full of using either one when "appropriate".

BTW...a short history lesson: Hamas is actually an outgrowth of the muslim brotherhood, and a lot more violent, which is why mubarak wants them far away from the muslim brotherhood and hence wants the border shut tight.

but this is like basic stuff for any "middle east student"...

[Idealism]

43. An outgrowth from 20 years ago

But the two organizations have since split paths. The Muslim Brotherhood has since rejected al-Qaeda style tactics and is now the peaceful opposition in Egypt. Hamas, obviously, hasn't. The brotherhoods history may be full of violence, but I would challenge you to find anything recent from them.

You should re-read what I wrote, because you didn't seem to understand it the first time.

[pelsar]

46. i did, and your not up to date..

Hamas and their ideals to spread. God forbid a political party built on resisting authority, anti-corruption, and a rejection of usury.

the gazans under hamas seem to think differently....that hamas is as corrupt as fatah, has no patience for those resisting their authority (bad habit of torturing and killing them).....is that the part you wanted me to reread?

and did i forget to mention the fantical dictatorship that comes with theocratical rule (that both hamas and the muslim brotherhood agree upon)...or did you not know about that?

[azurnoir]

47. Hamas is as corrupt as Fatah,

And you are an authority on what Gazans think? Please do gives us some those conversations are we to take you were recently in Gaza? I did not see you claim that Hamas has implemented Sharia law in Gaza in this post but i have seen you claim it the past so I Googled it and this was my result

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=tkB&ei=yA-ESci2DoTUMfa6vM8D&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=hamas+implements+sharia+law&spell=1

I will not post links to the websites listed but they range from NewsMax to the Jawa's with a couple of stops at FreeRepublic I am amazed we haven't heard much about the crucifixions Hamas is reportedly preforming

[pelsar]

48. I'm afraid you'll have to wait a bit....

sometimes it takes a while before the english press picks upon the israeli/hamas TV broadcasts hebrew papers....

i'll search for you....i'm hardly an authority (can i quote you about "being an authority when you insinuate what israelis believe?) but i do get more local info than those who dont live in the area...PM however would probably know more than me, having direct links, might want to ask her.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

52. No they are not, they have Allah on their side. Just ask them

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. It must be a different Muslim Brotherhood than the one we all know about

[sabbat hunter]

10. The israelis

Control Egypt?

[Tripmann]

11. Lets cut the crap boys and girls.

The US props up the dictatorships in the region, including Egypts. Egypt keeps its border with gaza closed at the behest of Israel via direction from America. Its not rocket science, and the childish black and white diversionary posts don't fool anyone. Israel doesn't control egypt, we know this, nobodys claiming so, and you do yourself no favours with the statement. Israel uses its influence in america which uses its influence on the dictatorship in egypt. Simple

[sabbat hunter]

12. so

Israel controls the US and can tell them what do to, whom to give marching orders to?

[Tripmann]

13. Oh dear.

Really not doing yourself any favours are you.

[sabbat hunter]

14. What are you talking about?

You are the one that made the following statement

Egypt keeps its border with gaza closed at the behest of Israel via direction from America

behest:
Noun
1)an order
2) earnest request

So are you saying that Israel orders the US?

[Idealism]

15. Do you not remember the U.N. security council resolution?

That the U.S. was ordered to veto by Israel, then abstained from voting? The resolution that the U.S. wrote, then had to sit out- all because Olmert told them to? Do you not recall Olmert then bragging to JPost and Haaretz about calling Rice and ordering Bush to not vote for it?

[sabbat hunter]

17. and then

Rice saying that the conversation never even happened, in fact there is a transcript showing her giving a speech at the time Olmert claims he spoke to her.

[bemildred]

20. Olmert did not claim he spoke to her, he claims he spoke to Bush,

while Bush was supposed to be giving a speech, and that he got Bush to call her and forbid her to vote for her own resolution.

[sabbat hunter]

32. I stand corrected n/t

[Idealism]

27. He didn't talk to Rice, nor did he claim he did

Rice was told by Bush to vote no, who then called the UN ambassador and decided to abstain instead because they were an integral part of writing the bill.

But, you already knew this, so why deflect the question?

[sabbat hunter]

33. a conversation that never actually happened

check out the transcripts. of a speech given by Bush and the time line.

[Idealism]

44. Forward me some credible proof, I have not heard of these allegations

[Tripmann]

16. You answered your own question......

2) Earnest request

Well done

But please, continue.........

[sabbat hunter]

18. Primary meaning

an order.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tripmann]

31. You always know you're ahead in a discussion..

..when the other party has to jump on a single word you've used and try to imply you meant it in a different way.

Its obvoius what context I used the word to everyone here. If you're going to debate with the adults, try not to derail things in such a transparent way. Otherwise, go work for faux news and twist everything everybody says like a pro.

[mike_c]

22. see #21

In short, yes. The U.S. does act as a foreign policy agent for Israel-- that much is clear from the statements made in that report to congress. It's not so black-and-white as you'd like to paint it to discredit the notion-- the U.S. government apparently believes it is acting in its own interest as well as Israel's. Belittling the notion by framing it in preposterous terms-- does Israel send marching orders to Washington?-- does little to get at the truth, however.

[pelsar]

37. now i get it...americas being duped

so if something is in americas interest and it also in israels.....that means america is being duped by israel..... (did i get that right?)

the U.S. government apparently believes it is acting in its own interest

so who tricked america? (the jews or israelis?)

[azurnoir]

45. This happened in th last few days of a President

who along with his party has been rejected by the American people, in no small part because acting in America's best interest did not seem high on his priority list, in short he was doing a friend a favor

[joshcryer]

34. Where is the Arab League telling Egypt to open their borders?

It isn't done because Gazan's would simply leave and go into Egypt, which is expressly forbidden by the Arab League.

[GoesTo11]

23. Israel probably wouldn't mind if Egypt accepted a large number of Gazans

But Egypt enforces that border pretty tightly.

[mike_c]

25. this time last year-- well, just a little earlier...

...Egypt allowed the border to open more-or-less freely. Keep in mind that the Rafah crossing is mainly a pedestrian crossing-- it's not set up for commercial traffic. And before Israel insisted that it be closed entirely, in response to the democratic election of Hamas in Gaza, Israel monitored every crossing with closed circuit cameras and insisted on the right to close it, imposing that demand upon Egypt, even though it had "withdrawn" from Gaza. A withdrawal that the whole world can see was an utter sham.

How did they enforce control of the Egypt-Gaza border? Several ways, some of which we probably don't entirely know about. The U.S. tied continued foreign aid to Egypt to its acquiescence with Israeli demands prior to 2008-- that certainly contributed to Egypt's willingness to reclose the border when Hamas breached it last winter and to keep it closed in violation of the cease-fire agreement leading up to the latest Israeli incursion into Gaza.

[Vegasaurus]

26. Israel would be delighted to give up the Gazans completely

They wanted Egypt to take them before, but Egypt refused

Egypt clearly does not want to deal with the Palestinians either.

[azurnoir]

30. So Israels borders extend to the airspace over Gaza

and the coastal waters of Gaza? If Israel opens those it can permanently seal the border crossings they will not be needed will they?

[Fozzledick]

19. More context about Hamas' discord from the article

The group appears to be in the throes of an internal power struggle between hard-liners and pragmatists. Which group comes out on top will likely depend on who is able to garner the most benefits in postwar Gaza.

With hawks urging more violence, the window of opportunity to boost the voices of relative moderation is likely to be short.

"We won this war," said Hamas politician Mushir Al-Masri. "Why should we give in to pressure from anyone?"

Al-Masri spoke to the AP while standing next to a chair that used to serve as his seat in the Palestinian parliament, now reduced to rubble by Israeli bombing. Surrounding him were cracked cement, broken bricks, shattered glass and microphones covered in ash.

[Vegasaurus]

35. They "won" the war?

That would be funny, except that there are 1200 dead people and a billion dollars of damage.

And they know that if they shoot off more rockets, they will be pounded again, as they should be.

Hamas thinking they have won anything, but the Misery Prize, is laughable.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

51. Syria has at times celebrated their 1973 whooping as a victory

[Alamuti Lotus]

28. there's a funky quote going around now

"To blockade, after all, is to attempt strangulation--and sovereign states are entitled not to have their State strangled. The blockade is by definition an act of war, imposed and enforced through violence. Never in history have a blockade and peace existed side by side."

Hmm.. I wonder which government said that. I suppose it is only true in certain situations, but surely only when it applies to "us" and not "those others".