Time Running Out For A Two-State Solution? - 60 Minutes (CBS)

[B o d i]

Jan. 25, 2009

(CBS) Getting a peace deal in the Middle East is such a priority to President Obama that his first foreign calls on his first day in office were to Arab and Israeli leaders. And on day two, the president made former Senator George Mitchell his special envoy for Middle East peace. Mr. Obama wants to shore up the ceasefire in Gaza, but a lasting peace really depends on the West Bank where Palestinians had hoped to create their state. The problem is, even before Israel invaded Gaza, a growing number of Israelis and Palestinians had concluded that peace between them was no longer possible, that history had passed it by. For peace to have a chance, Israel would have to withdraw from the West Bank, which would then become the Palestinian state.

It’s known as the "two-state" solution. But, while negotiations have been going on for 15 years, hundreds of thousands of Jewish settlers have moved in to occupy the West Bank. Palestinians say they can't have a state with Israeli settlers all over it, which the settlers say is precisely the idea.
_______________

Daniella Weiss moved from Israel to the West Bank 33 years ago. She has been the mayor of a large settlement.

"I think that settlements prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state in the land of Israel. This is the goal. And this is the reality," Weiss told 60 Minutes correspondent Bob Simon.

more
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/23/60minutes/main4749723.shtml

[IndianaGreen]

1. Okay, where do we go from here?

The status quo is unacceptable for it will lead to more bloodshed, and the ultimate destruction of Israel. There is no GAWD to save Israel, just as there was no GAWD to save the Zealots at Masada, or to save anyone from the Holocaust.

[Jim Sagle]

2. 2 states is the only way. Every side will have to give up something.

[IndianaGreen]

3. No, your side will never give up all the land taken in 1967

which would make a secular one-state federal republic the only rational alternative, and which will give the right of return to both parties.

[Fgiriun]

6. True...

But are they both willing to change their name to Palesriel or Isralistan.

A secular single-state democracy would be the best bet but unlikely as long as religion, which dominates both of these peoples lives, remains.

Hopefully both sides will figure out that peaceful existance between them in this world means a lot more than one less than guaranteed on another.

[IndianaGreen]

7. There aren't enough Palestinians or Israelis willing to live in peace with one another

within the pre-1967 borders. The reactionaries reproduce like rabbits, thus sealing their fate to a future of endless wars.

[Hippo_Tron]

8. The right wingers certainly won't ever give it up

But I genuinely believe that the majority of Israelis would give it up if they knew it would truly ensure an end to the bloodshed. Before that can happen though, the political agendas need to be put aside and that means the US/Egypt/Saudi Arabia need to make peace with Iran and Syria. Once Palestine is no longer a staging ground for proxy wars, then the third parties can focus on the actual peace process and not their own political agendas. Do all of that and get another Rabin elected and there will be a sovereign Palestinian state.

My solution isn't likely to happen anytime soon, of course, but neither is a one state solution.

[IndianaGreen]

9. And who will guarantee to the Israelis an end to the bloodshed?

America? Let's get real, America cannot guarantee jackshit!

[Hippo_Tron]

14. Syria and Iran

When Israel and the United States make peace with Syria and Iran then Hamas and Hezbollah won't be a problem because their funding comes from Syria and Iran.

[Jim Sagle]

10. And why should they give it all up?

It was taken from agressors.

[IndianaGreen]

11. You blaming the Palestinians from the errors of their former masters in Amman and Cairo?

The same logic was used by bin Laden as a justification for attacking the WTC. The people that worked there were responsible for the policies of their government.

Somehow I must reject such rationalization.

[Jim Sagle]

12. Get the parties together in negotiations, and they'll work it out.

George Mitchell seems to be a facilitator.

[IndianaGreen]

13. I hope you are right. I hope that Mitchell can pull the rabbit out of the hat again.

Despite the best efforts of Ambassador Mitchell, Secretary Clinton, and President President Obama, it still falls on the warring parties to make peace among themselves. Just as the last 8-years of Bush have tipped climate change beyond the point of no return, the same can be said about the peace between Israel and Palestine. I am very pessimistic about the prospects for peace in the I/P conflict, and I am an optimist by nature.

May I remind you that in Northern Ireland, there was a one-state solution with Catholic and Protestant living side-by-side.

[Crunchy Frog]

15. A little thing called international law. n/t

[Jim Sagle]

17. Hogwash!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. And they have held it longer than the agressors did

I kind of like the original UN mapping myself

[azurnoir]

18. Oh you mean the one where most of Israel was the Negev? n/t

[Fgiriun]

4. I think

people like Weiss have to be re-educated to be tolerant towards their genetic brothers, the Palestinians. After that they might realize, hopefully, that the Palestinians arent any different from themselves and allow for the frutition of the 2 state solution.

Another event which might lead to peace between the Israelites and Palestinians is the complete decay of religious ideology. That happens to be highly unlikely but not completely impossible. Religion is one of the greatest force behind the divisions they face.

[IndianaGreen]

5. Implementing a 2-state solution means removing the likes of Daniella Weiss

doing that would risk a Jewish civil war, a far worse outcome than having Qassam rockets rain on you. While a 2-state solution would have been the ideal, 8 years ago, I don't think it is even feasible anymore and according to the 60 Minutes report, it is impossible.

[cali]

20. A two state solution not being feasible hardly makes one state anymore

feasible. That leaves endless war.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

23. Cali, it already is one state.

One big apartheid state. Barghouti said it loud and clear.

[cali]

26. Either it's an occupation or one big state

you refer to it as an occupation day in and day out. it can't be both. I don't believe it's one big state. I believe it's an occupation that has to end. And as I've repeatedly said, the only thing more unlikely than 2 states is one kumbaya secular state.

[Shaktimaan]

45. oh give me a break

The two state solution is barely 20 years old as an actual plan and everyone is leaping over themselves to pronounce it dead and buried. The Palestinians actually have more autonomy now than at any previous point in history.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

46. Yep. Well spotted.

A 2-state solution stopped being feasible in 2000 when Ehud Barak sunk the Camp David accords.

A 1-state solution stopped being feasible in the 1940s or 50s, when the UN decided to transplant the Palestinians to make room for a Jewish state and it became to late to reverse that without a humanitarian catastrophe.

What that leaves is endless war.

What I suspect will happen over the next few decades is that Israel will continue to expand and settle (I'm relatively young, and by the time I die, I expect the Palestinians to have been ethnically cleansed completely and Israel to stretch from the Jordan to the sea) while its neighbours continue to launch periodic, not-terribly-effectual attacks across its borders.

[Vegasaurus]

47. You think Israel will ethnically cleanse 4.5 million Palestinians?

Wow.

Pretty powerful nation, that Israel.

Of course, they have failed at genocide too, what with only 40,000 Palestinians killed in 60 years (compared to 11 Muslims, killed by each other).

And the birth rate is huge: the Palestinian population has increased 30% in 10 years.

I think ethnically cleansing will be very tough.

Israel had better up its efforts.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

48. I think it will happen automatically.

I don't think (although I'm not 100$ confident, especially under Likud) that Israel will try anything like what we've seen in the Balkans or similar.

I think it will just go on doing what it's currently doing - making more and larger settlements, slowly taking more and more land, and making the Palestinians lives unendurable - and more and more of them will choose to emigrate.

The frog-boiling approach.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

22. I think it is difficult to draw any other conclusion.

We'll definitely see apartheid as the choice. Why risk destroying the Jewish state when Israel can keep the Palestinians under its dominion at relatively low cost? So they face some nasty words from bloggers and lose a few soliders and civilians every now and then -- seems a price they are willing to pay.

This is exactly why armed resistance will ramp up. Everyone can see the writing on the wall.

[cali]

27. yes, yes. the Israelis are evil and the Palestinians embody

the immortal innocent.

I don't think anyone can say what we'll indefinitely see. I don't believe in crystal ball gazing.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

32. No need for snark. I'm stating a valid POV and not making a caricature of anyone.

Did you see th eprogram in question?

It's hard to imagine Israel risking the kind of civil strife predicted.

[Vegasaurus]

28. And armed resistance has worked out so well for them?

Walls, checkpoints, closed borders.

Self described hunger?

What have they gained but misery and loss of life?

[cali]

19. reprogrammed? um, not going to happen.

look, the enmity that's built up between the Palestinians and Jewish Israelis is not something that can be dealt with by some dubious and vague "reprogramming". It's only time that can dissipate that. Obviously, someone like Weiss will just have to be dragged from her settlement, kicking and screaming. And no, religious ideology ain't going anywhere either- alas.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

21. An absolute must-watch for everyone! nt

[Scurrilous]

24. This Is Not a Test (Thomas L. Friedman)

<snip>

"Stop me if you’ve heard this one before. “Guy walks into a bar ...” No, not that one — this one: “This is the most critical year ever for Palestinian-Israeli diplomacy. It is five minutes to midnight. If we don’t get diplomacy back on track soon, it will be the end of the two-state solution.”

I’ve heard that line almost every year for the last 20, and I’ve never bought it. Well, today, I’m buying it.

We’re getting perilously close to closing the window on a two-state solution, because the two chief window-closers — Hamas in Gaza and the fanatical Jewish settlers in the West Bank — have been in the driver’s seats. Hamas is busy making a two-state solution inconceivable, while the settlers have steadily worked to make it impossible.

If Hamas continues to obtain and use longer- and longer-range rockets, there is no way any Israeli government can or will tolerate independent Palestinian control of the West Bank, because a rocket from there can easily close the Tel Aviv airport and shut down Israel’s economy.

And if the Jewish settlers continue with their “natural growth” to devour the West Bank, it will also be effectively off the table. No Israeli government has mustered the will to take down even the “illegal,” unauthorized settlements, despite promises to the U.S. to do so, so it’s getting hard to see how the “legal” settlements will ever be removed. What is needed from Israel’s Feb. 10 elections is a centrist, national unity government that can resist the blackmail of the settlers, and the rightist parties that protect them, to still implement a two-state solution.

Because without a stable two-state solution, what you will have is an Israel hiding behind a high wall, defending itself from a Hamas-run failed state in Gaza, a Hezbollah-run failed state in south Lebanon and a Fatah-run failed state in Ramallah. Have a nice day."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/opinion/25friedman.html?_r=1&scp=4&sq=Thomas%20Friedman&st=cse

[Vegasaurus]

25. The Settlers and the Militants (Hamas, IJ etc)

are definitely the true impediments to peace.

Neither of them want it.

The question remains whether there is anything to do to modify the stance of either of these groups.

[cali]

29. whoa. I actually agree with Friedman- which happens rarely.

And I think he assigns blame to the right groups.

[slipslidingaway]

30. CBS Feedback Form - Tell us what you think!

http://www.cbs.com/info/user_services/fb_global_form.php

60 minutes is last in the drop down menu.

[Scurrilous]

33. hank 60 Minutes for its Piece "Time Running Out For A Two-State Solution?"

From ADC (American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee)
26 Jan 2009

ADC Action Alert
Thank 60 Minutes for its Piece `Time Running Out For A Two-State Solution?`

Washington, DC - January 26, 2009
www.adc.org

The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC) welcomes the segment `Time Running Out For A Two-State Solution` which appeared on the Sunday, January 25 episode of CBS`s highly acclaimed `60 Minutes` program.

The piece takes a honest and critical look at the viability of the two-state solution as part of a resolution to the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Veteran journalist Bob Simon traveled the West Bank to assess the situation on the ground and clearly shows how the Israeli government`s years of support for the increasing presence of illegal Israeli settlements and settlers in the West Bank, Israeli policies on appropriating Palestinian homes at a whim, Israel`s imposition of arbitrary travel restriction and establishment of hundreds of checkpoints in the West Bank, and the creation of the separation barrier which appropriates even more Palestinian land, are adversely impacting the feasibility of two-state solution.

The content of this piece touches on issues rarely raised in the US mainstream media and ADC believes it is important 60 Minutes hears from you.

CONTACTING 60 MINUTES
60 Minutes | 524 West 57th St. | New York, NY 10019
PHONE: [phone]
[e-mail]

http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=31621

[slipslidingaway]

35. Already done :) n/t

[Douglas Carpenter]

37. EVERYONE PLEASE, TAKE A FEW MINUTES TO WRITE 60 Minutes NOW!!

This is the kind of reporting that can help actually make peace in our time possible!!

PLEASE, PLEASE, DON'T PUT IT OFF ONE SINGLE MINUTE!! WRITE 60 Minutes NOW to say THANK YOU!!

CONTACTING 60 MINUTES
60 Minutes |
524 West 57th St. | New York, NY 10019

PHONE: [phone]

E-mail: [e-mail]

http://www.cbs.com/info/user_services/fb_global_form.php

[Douglas Carpenter]

36. thanks for posting that..I just E-mailed them, just now

[Donald Ian Rankin]

31. Time ran out for a 2-state solution in 2000, and for a 1-state solution in the 40s or 50s.

I suspect that the last chance at a two-state solution for the forseeable future was thrown away at Camp David by Ehud Barak.

A one-state solution has not been possible since shortly after the foundation of Israel.

There will be bloodshed in the Middle East for a long time to come.

I suspect that by the time I die what we will have is a one-state non-solution - Israel will have completely ethnically cleansed the Palestinians and stretch from the Jordan to the sea, but still be at war with its neighbours.

[shaayecanaan]

34. I agree...

It is very difficult to get any consensus in Israeli politics at the best of times. The peace agreement with Egypt was only possible largely because it was championed by a right-wing strongman in Menachem Begin, who could rely on at least some on the right to support him. I cannot see that possibility arising again - you are right in that the last person to come close was Ehud Barak.

However, the Arab population within Israel's present borders is larger than its Jewish population - it would be practically be very difficult to expel its Arab population wholesale. And where would you put them, given that none of the adjacent Arab states are likely to support you in the venture?

I suspect that the only way to get the Arab population to flee Israel will be to kill a significant number of them. You don't necessarily have to undertake the dirty work yourself. You can simply turn a blind eye and let civic militias do the killing like the Turks and the Serbs did. That way you can decry the violence and claim that you are doing your level best to prevent it.

The history of the last 120 years has been the trend towards homogeneity in Europe. There was the Greco-Turkish population exchange. Then there was the Armenian genocide. Then the holocaust, and then the exodus of ethnic Germans from Eastern Europe. Then the division of Yugoslavia into distinct Serb, Croat and Bosniak entities, and then the exodus of ethnic Russians from the former Iron curtain countries. And then the Karabakh war which divided the Armenians and the Azeris.

It will be the last chapter in a very long story.

[Recursion]

38. Not quite the last

The Kurdish and Turkmen crescents still overlap in central asia. To say nothing of the Latin and Anglo overlay in North America.

[Vegasaurus]

40. Israel has no 'present borders"

and within the 1967 borders, there are 1.5 million Arabs and 6.5 million Jews.

Have you seen Israel killing a million Arab Palestinians?

Have you seen them killing 100,000?

How about 60,000 in 60 years?

Meanwhile, the Palestinians population has grown 30% in ten years.

There is no way that Israel will "ethnically cleanse" all of the Arabs.

And as for a genocide?

They are doing a terrible job.

60,000 in 60 years as opposed to 11 million Muslim on Muslim deaths in the same time period.

Now tht is a real genocide.

[Larkspur]

39. This was an excellent piece about the real problem in Palestine

and reminds me what my late aunt told me after she returned from her last trip to Israel in 1985 -- "It's horrible how the Israelis treat the Palestinians!"

Jewish settlers are a gang of racists stealing Palestinian lands. A pox on them all. And I'm infuriated that my tax dollars help pay for these illegal settlements.

[Douglas Carpenter]

41. one kick

[IndianaGreen]

42. Bob Simon from 60 Minutes under attack by Israel Lobby

Here is this e-mail alert I received yesterday:

----- Original message -----

From:

Sent: Fri Jan 30 2009 03:01:42 PM EST

To: brooklynpeace(REDACTED by Poster)

Subject: (Iraq Committee - Bklyn Peace Mobe) Bob Simon from 60 Minutes under attack for Israel report


Please forward widely!


Bob Simon from 60 Minutes under attack.


Fight back with a letter of support.


Nicolas --


This past Sunday, 60 Minutes aired a powerful and thoughtful report on the danger that Israeli settlements pose to the chances for Israeli-Palestinian peace. If you haven't watched the segment, it is must-see journalism. Watch it here.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/23/60minutes/main4749723.shtml

All week long, 60 Minutes' Bob Simon has been under attack for supposed "anti-Israel bias." CAMERA (the Orwellian-named Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America) alerted their activist network - flooding the 60 Minutes' offices and their advertisers with angry phone calls charging media bias. (1) Jewish community leader Abe Foxman fired off a letter calling the piece a "hatchet job on Israel." (2) Journalists - as well as rabbis, professors and elected officials - know that if they raise questions about what Israel does - they'll often get attacked as anti-Israel. It's one way the forces of the status quo constrain debate and discussion on what's really best for Israel and the United States.

It's time for a reporter like Bob Simon to know that those of us with balanced views value balanced reporting - and we know how to write letters too! If he's getting an earful from CAMERA and others, then the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement should be showing him support.

Send Bob Simon a note of support for his accurate and thoughtful report on Israeli settlements and the occupation.

We hear plenty from American media about the threats that Israel faces from terrorism, rockets, and a nuclear Iran.

While those threats are real and should be covered, Americans also need to hear about another threat that is just as real: that time is running out for a two-state solution with the Palestinians in part due to Israeli settlements and the occupation of the West Bank. Without a two-state solution soon through assertive American diplomacy, Israel's future as a Jewish, democratic homeland is at risk.

During Sunday's 60 Minutes segment, anchor Bob Simon interviewed pro-settlement activist Daniella Weiss who readily admitted that she thinks "settlements prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state in the land of Israel. This is the goal. And this is the reality."

Simon also restated what Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has been saying for years (3) about what would happen if the two-state solution peace process falls apart.

"Demographers predict that within ten years Arabs will outnumber Jews in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. Without a separate Palestinian state the Israelis would have three options, none of them good. They could try ethnic cleansing, drive the Palestinians out of the West Bank, or they could give the Palestinians the vote. That would be the democratic option but it would mean the end of the Jewish state. Or they could try apartheid - have the minority Israelis rule the majority Palestinians, but apartheid regimes don't have a very long life."

Simon also interviewed Israeli Foreign Minister and Israel's chief negotiator with the Palestinians Tzipi Livni who said that evacuating the settlers in the West Bank is "not going to be easy. But this is the only solution."

But groups like CAMERA are opposed to mainstream media reporting that Israeli extremists, in addition to Palestinian extremists, undermine efforts to achieve a two-state solution. CAMERA resorts to claims of anti-Israel bias - when the reality is that Israeli extremists on the West Bank make real peace and security for Israel and the Palestinians more difficult to achieve.

We can't let fringe groups like CAMERA define what it means to be pro-Israel through intimidation and fear tactics.

Bob Simon should receive support from the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement for his accurate and thoughtful assessment of the threat that Israeli settlements pose to the two-state solution peace process.

Thanks for all you do.


- Isaac


Isaac Luria

Online Director

J Street

January 29, 2009

[oberliner]

43. One minute it's Electronic Intifada attacking you, next it's CAMERA

Either way, it's probably good for 60 Minutes to have some controversy.

[Idealism]

44. Who doesn't CAMERA attack, seriously?

Anything and everything that even looks at Israel in a less than gracious light gets a press release. They tried attacking everything from B'Tselem to the U.N. to try to see if it sticks. Just a bunch of dissemblers.