Can the Cease Fire Last Long?

[Wonder]

snip
If there is no progress in all these matters, the Hudna will collapse. Should this happen, the Israeli military and political establishment will shed no tears. There the Hudna was received with much gnashing of teeth, as if it were imposed by some hostile force. As a matter of fact, it came about by sheer American pressure. The Israeli media, all of whom have long ago become propaganda instruments of the "security establishment", received the Hudna in unison, as if by order, with comments like "It has no chance. It will not last" —a prophecy that may well prove to be self-realizing.

The army command opposed the cease-fire. As always, the officers explained that victory was just around the corner, that all it needed was one last decisive blow. Exactly this, in the very same words, was said by the French generals who opposed ending the war in Algeria, and by the American generals when Nixon finally gave up in Vietnam. This was said by the Russian generals in Afghanistan, and now they are saying it again in Chechnya. They are always just about to win. They always need to deliver just one more blow. And it's always the corrupt politicians who stick a knife in their backs and bring about defeat.

The truth is that the army commanders have failed dismally. They have had many small successes, but they have failed to achieve their main aim: to break the will of the Palestinian people. For every "local leader" who was "targeted" and "liquidated", two new ones arose. The "terrorist infrastructure" was not destroyed, because there is no way to destroy it. It is not composed of arms workshops and leaders, but of popular support and the number of youngsters ready to risk and abandon their lives.

After 1000 days, in spite of the killing and the destruction, the Palestinian spirit of resistance and their fighting capacity were not broken. The Palestinian people has not given up the demands expressed at Camp David and Taba. At the beginning of this Intifada, some individuals volunteered for suicide missions; at its end, hundreds stood in line.

more...
http://www.tikkun.org/index.cfm/action/current/article/176.html

[Darranar]

1. Heroism? Resistance?

Terrorism is neither of those things. Terrorism is the massacre of innocent civlians for political purposes.

That anyone could believe that the suicide bombers are freedom fighters and the suicide bombings are legitimate resistance makes me sick.

[Wonder]

2. Is that ALL you culled from the posted Article?

???

[Darranar]

3. No...

I agree that neither side has won, but the way they portrayed it was sickening.

[Wonder]

4. the way THEY portrayed it.

who is THEY?

[Darranar]

5. Those who wrote the article

I know that it is one person's perspective, however they wouldn't have put it on their webstie if they didn't agree with it.

[Wonder]

6. Are you familiar with the Biography of the Author

and the publication itself?

[Darranar]

7. No....

But I read the article. The atitude of Uri Avnery is rather sickening. Portraying the suicide bombers as standing up for the Palestinians and doing good things is horrible and immoral.

[Wonder]

8. Do you feel Uri is condoning suicide bombing?

Or rather assessing it within the historic context within the long and violent battle Israel fought for it's independence or Statehood both with and against the British authorities (by way of tactics that were both valient and downright immoral an immorality that persisted on and off throughout these 56 years). The Israel state placed upon the land of dispossessed Palestinians who have in turn been fighting for what is commonly called Palestinian Cause (its cultural unity, solidarity, State soveriegnty and right to self determine upon land the to were cast of into diaspora from) by way of Palestinian resistance and terrorism as well? And by the way the various terrorist tactics employeed are not exclusive to the Palestinians.

Do you not feel that a Palestinian resistance has any merit within that context (suicide bombing aside for the present moment). Are you unaware of the countless inncoent Palestinian fatalities that Israel has purposedly targeted by terroristic means as well as within the context of war (and on and off to forfill calculated goals of expansionism) for which it also bears some of the responsible for the violence as well? Within what context are you yourself analyzing this 56 year conflict, that your response would be so reflexive?

In the meantime this is the organization who puts out these Publication.

www.tikkun.org

Avnery is an Israeli Leftist. At least I believe that is how his political leanings are relegated. He also is the director of Gush Shalom and, "had a central role in bringing about the Israeli-Palestinian Action Group for Peace conference, mapped out a plan of action for the new body: - setting up a committee of experts to prepare within three months a detailed draft peace agreement, dealing with all the difficult issues; - a 'Truth and Reconcilation Commission' on the model of the South- African body chaired by Bishop Desmond Tutu, with the ail of looking at the history of the past century and trying to formulate a version which both peoples can recognize; - a joint media bureau, which would actively engage the Israeli, Palestinian and international media; - an operations committee, charged with preparing demonstrations, campaigns and struggles, for example against the Separation Wall which is systemativally depriving Palestinian of their lands, or against the roadblocks which severely disrupt daily life."

another snip from the press release on this conference. My apologies if this is old news as it was Held on June 28 2003

The above sums up he mood among two hundred Israeli and Palestinian peace activists, public figures and intellectuals who gathered this morning in Ramallah on the West Bank to attend the founding conference of the "Joint Action Group for Israeli-Palestinian Peace."

In order to get there, the Israeli participants had to find their way through the army roadblocks at the entrances to Ramallah. After several dozen Israelis mingled among Palestinian pedestrians at Kalandia Checkpoint on the south side of the city, soldiers blocked the entrance. The remaining activists, however, traveled by backroads and eventually made it to the conference hall. A few hours later, when they were exiting the city, soldiers at Kalandia wrote down meticulously names and ID numbers, threatening the Israelis on their way home with prosecution for having broken a military order - the three-year old order forbidding Israelis from entering the Palestinian cities ("Area A").

http://www.jfjfp.org/indexfiles/IPAGP.htm

[Darranar]

9. Perhaps I should better explain my views

It is revisionist history to say that the Jews have no claim to the land. It was their land before the Romans took it.

The Zionist movement was not designed to be violent. It was designed to form an independent Jewish state in Palestine where safe refuge could be attained. The need for a safe refuge for Jews was proved again during the Holocaust.

The Jews did not uproot the Palestinians. Much of the land of Palestine was uninhabited back then; other parts were swamp. The early Zionist pioneers worked the land hard and managed to make much of it habitable for them. That was when much of the trouble started.

Some of the Arabs in Palestine, which, it should be noted here, was an area, and not a state; it has never been a non-Jewish state-did not like it that the Zionists were having success. They felt that the Jews had managed to cheat and make land habitable that should have been a graveyard for them-and good riddance, in their view. This was a beginning for the anger.

As Jewish immigration to Palestine continued, these racist Arabs grew more angry. When the British took Palestine and assured the Jews of their right to a state there, those Arabs were even furtherly angered. Violence began, and Jewish groups trying to defend themselves were formed. Unfortunately, a number of these groups began to fight fire with fire-the beginning of human rights abun the Jewish side conflict.

During this period, there were many instances of compassion by both sides. Some Arabs were certainly peaceful, and were strongly against the violence against the Jews. Some Jews didn't like the violence against Arab innocents either. Neither group, unfortunately, was loud enough, and the hope of a peaceful solution then was gone.

The British, unfortunately, tried to please everyone and ended up pleasing no one. The quotas on Jewish immigration were unfair, and much of what the British did in response to Arab and Jewish violence was also unfair.

Throughout World War II, groups of Jews fought with the British. Groups of Arabs fought with the Nazis. Other groups of Arabs fought with the British, it is unfair to say otherwise.

After World War II, many of the Jews in Palestine began an aggressive campaign against the British. Many of these so-called "terrorist" organizations were in fact humane, with the exception of a few like Irgun. The main ones tried to avoid any casualties whatsoever in their strikes, going as far as to warn the British when a building or bridge or whatever was about to explode.

The bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem was also accompanied by a warning; needless to say, the British commander paid no heed. The building blew up, and several people were killed.

Finally, the British brought the case to the UN, and they partitioned the land in an unfair fashion, giving much of the good land to the Arabs and a bit of coastline and a lot of desert to the Jews. (Claims that the Jews got more of the land are correct; however, they fail to address the fact that much of that land was desert.) The anti-semitic Arab governments, angry about the Jews at their doorstep, attacked.

As I hope you can see, I do believe that the Jews have a legitimate claim to the land, and the above is why, however long-winded. I also believe that the settlements must be removed and a Palestinian state created; however, an end to most of the terrorism must happen somewhere along there.

[Tinoire]

12. Very nice post Darranar

Which is why you have a lot of respect as a pro-Israeli (and I hate that simplistic, mis-leading term) poster. I disagree with you on one main point, which just happens to be the whole key to this conflict; that point is

The Jews did not uproot the Palestinians. Much of the land of Palestine was uninhabited back then; other parts were swamp. The early Zionist pioneers worked the land hard and managed to make much of it habitable for them. That was when much of the trouble started.

I think THIS is the point that really needs to be hashed out because it's the root of this conflict. The Jews say they have a claim to a historic land that was just lying around empty and the Palestinians say 'whoaa, back up here, we've been living on this land for centuries'.

Because of what I see as too many historical references, by independent, Israeli and Palestinian scholars, I believe the Palestinian claim that they were there and suffered immensely as they were pushed off their land.

Note this map signed by Moshe Dayan in the upper left hand corner.


----The map below was prepared in 1944 by the British Palestine Survey. It was updated in 1946, and was apparently used by the armistice negotiators in 1949 to provide the basis of the Israeli-Jordanian border as it was until 1967. This copy of the map has heavy dark lines drawn along what became the Jordanian - Israeli border, with red lines (in the Jerusalem area) used to show the borders of demilitarized zones. The map is signed by Moshe Dayan for Israel and Ahmed Sudki El Jundi for the Kingdom of Transjordan. The original map was in two parts, and the place where the two have apparently been joined together by Cellotape is visible. The original maps do not appear to show some of the borders such as the border between Palestine and Syria and that between Palestine and Lebanon.
This overview is scaled to 1 to 1,000,000. The large detailed maps (North Central and South) clearly show the names of many towns and villages that figured in the Israel war of Independence (1948 war) including Deir Yassin near Jerusalem, site of a massacre by Jewish Irgun/Lehi forces (April 9, 1948), Gush Etzion, site of a massacre of surrendered Jewish defenders by Palestinians on May 14, 1948, Iraq El-Suweidan that figured in battles with the Egyptian army etc. Many of the Palestinian towns shown disappeared or became Jewish towns after 1948. Some of the Jewish towns and settlements were likewise abandoned either permanently, or until the West Bank and Gaza were captured by Israel in 1967. (from http://www.mideastweb.org/palestinedetail1.htm )


Map slow to load:
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story582.html

Faster but much smaller version here: http://www.mideastweb.org/palestinedetail1.htm

I think it very unfair and insulting (not you personally but the revisionism) to say that the land was uninhabited when British documents concerning the partition were very clear that there would be a problem with the people already there. So some research on the Israeli Left sites. Most of those sites are run by strong Zionists who have no interest in spreading lies or demonizing Israel.

There's information on the population make-up here: http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story574.html but you may want to cross check that with some reputable Israeli historians. There's no reason why both peoples can't share the land but in order to negotiate successfully, certain truths have to be acknowledge and this, IMHO, is one of them. Peace and as my friend Magistrate says, happy hunting!

[Darranar]

14. I never claimed that the whole land was uninhabited...

I apoligize to any who misunderstood me. There were, however, uninhabited desolate areas in Palestine, some of which were made habitable by the Jews.

In regard to the maps, I was speaking of the late 1800s, where there were indeed sections of Palestine that were uninhabited. There were certainly sections that were inhabited as well, however.

Btw, thanks for the kind words. It's nice to see that not everyone only respects those who disagree with them.

[Tinoire]

39. True you didn't & Some links that might be of interest

but you can see the problem for the Palestinians in going from some uninhabitated desolate areas to the large patch that is now Israel proper. Anyway, I don't mean to argue that point with you because you look as if you've been doing your own research and that's all anyone can ask.

Anyway, here are some links I copied from Moveon.orgs web-site in case you're interested. It just took me half an hour to format them properly so I hope they'll be of interest/use to you and anyone else.

Peace

Americans for Peace Now

Bat Shalom

Bereaved Families Forum

http://brittzedek.org">Brit Tzedek V Shalom: Jewish Alliance for Justice and Peace

Grassroots International

Israeli-Palestinian Bereaved Families for Peace

International Solidarity Movement

Jewish Unity for a Just Peace (JUNITY)

A Jewish Voice for Peace

Jewish Voices Against the Occupation of Palestinian Territories (JVAO)

Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel

Gush Shalom

MADRE

Pax Christi International

Rabbis for Human Rights

Tikkun

Ta ayush:An Israeli-Arab partnership


OTHER RESOURCES:

A historic wrong?
URL: http://www.fpif.org/outside/commentary/0112occupation.html
Description: Foreign Policy In Focus argues that the Israeli occupation is a historic wrong on the scale of slavery and apartheid, and that it must be ended in order to break the cycle of violence.

Americans for Peace Now
URL: http://www.peacenow.org/stand.html
Description: In their policy statement, Americans for Peace Now, the U.S. partner of the Israeli organization Shalom Achshav, compellingly argue that Israel has as much to gain from a Palestinian state as Palestinians do. APN believes that forging a lasting peace with the Palestinians is not only compatible with the Zionist position, but is necessary if Israel is to preserve its Jewish and democratic character.

Bitter Lemons
URL: http://www.bitterlemons.org/previous/bl070102ed1.html
Description: In this edition of Bitter Lemons, a weekly cross-fire produced and edited by Ghassan Khatib, a Palestinian, and Yossi Alpher, an Israeli, editorialists present Palestinian and Israeli views on the state of peace in the region. Although no consensus is reached per se, all contributors see the dead-locked peace process as the result of irrational mistrust and fear on both sides, as well as a failure to learn from past mistakes.

Brief History of Middle East Conflict
URL: http://www.mideastweb.org/BriefHistory.htm
Description: A summary of the history of the region from 2000 BC to the present.

Compassionate Listening Project
URL: http://www.mideastdiplomacy.org/clp.html
Description: The Compassionate Listening Project, a major initiative of the US-based MidEast Citizen Diplomacy group, brings together people from both sides of the conflict. By meeting and talking with the people they perceive as their enemies, participants begin to break down stereotypes and reconcile with each other.

Displaced Palestinians.
URL: http://peace.moveon.org/r.php3?redir=78
Description: One of the main obstacles in the way of the creating a lasting peace agreement is the question of whether displaced Palestinians should be allowed to return home. A good explanation of both Palestinian and Israeli views on this issue.

Effects of Israeli Occupation
URL: http://www.arij.org/paleye/
Description: Applied Research Institute's "Eye on Palestine" offers frequent reports on the regional effects of Israeli occupation.

Foundation for Middle East Peace
URL: http://www.fmep.org/
Description: The website of the Foundation for Middle East Peace contains articles and more comprehensive information on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. The site publishes a biweekly settlement report, which according to the Foundation, is "known as the authoritative English-language source for information about settlements and the settler community" and "is used by diplomats, journalists, students and other interested parties in the Middle East, the United States and elsewhere for concise, accurate updates on this central aspect of Israeli policy in territories occupied in June 1967".

International Solidarity Movement
URL: http://www.palsolidarity.org
Description: "The International Solidarity Movement is a growing movement of Palestinian and international activists working to raise awareness of the Palestinian struggle for freedom and an end to Israeli occupation. We utilize non-violent, direct-action methods of resistance to confront and challenge the illegal Israeli occupation forces and policies."

Israel and September 11
URL: http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/26/04/news1.shtml
Description: " 'For Israel, September 11 was a Hanukkah Miracle,' Israeli political and security officials recently told the newspaper Ha'aretz. Thousands of American fatalities are considered a godsend -- in this cynical world -- because their deaths helped shift international pressure from Israel onto the Palestinians, while allowing the Israeli government to pursue its regional objectives unobstructed. And indeed, in the past months, the United States has unfalteringly supported all of Israel's actions."

Israel and the War on Terrorism
URL: http://www.counterpunch.org/loewenstein.html
Description: The Israeli/Palestinian peace process has been basically demolished. Israel has appropriated the "war on terrorism" rhetoric of America to justify its actions against Palestine, while the States have remained a strong backer of the Israeli regime, despite its history of human rights abuses.

Israel Primer
URL: http://peace.moveon.org/r.php3?redir=77
Description: Learn about everyday life under Israeli rule, the reasons that Arafat rejected Israel's "best offer yet," and how the Oslo process has curbed the freedom of Palestinians in the West Bank. Plus, some thoughts about how to criticize Israeli policies while remaining supportive of Israel itself, and the vulnerability of these policies to Western pressure.

Jerusalem
URL: http://peace.moveon.org/r.php3?redir=79
Description: The city of Jerusalem, holy for Jews, Muslims, and Christians, may well be the key to creating peace in the Middle East. This article summarizes the historical and religious significance of the holy sites within Jerusalem to each faith, as well as the options being considered by negotiators for this extremely significant city.

Jewish-Arab Center for Peace Programs
URL: http://www.inter.net.il/~givat_h/givat/ctcfaqs.htm
Description: The Givat Haviva Jewish-Arab Center for Peace Programs runs the Children Teaching Children project, through which Israeli and Palestinian children learn to cope with the violence and conflict that are a part of their everyday lives, and learn to think more critically and realistically about the situation.

Jewish Peace Fellowship
URL: http://www.jewishpeacefellowship.org
Description: Members of the Jewish Peace Fellowship are a diverse group of people, religious and secular Jews from all our traditions and all branches of Judaism. All believe deeply that Jewish ideals and experience provide inspiration for a nonviolent way of life. We see Jewish tradition as a continual calling toward peace, justice and compassion, a tradition whose goal is to bring all people to the consciousness that peace and not war is where we should direct our vision, energy and lives.

Jewish Voice for Peace
URL: http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/
Description: "A Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) is a San Francisco Bay Area grassroots organization dedicated to the human, civil and economic rights of Jews, Palestinians, and all peoples in the Middle East. Beyond our focus on the Middle East, JVP aims to build a community of activists working together on issues of social and economic justice."

Meretz USA
URL: http://www.meretzusa.org
Description: Meretz USA: for Israeli Civil Rights and Peace is a tax-exempt educational organization that works to support full and genuine peace between the State of Israel and its neighbors in the Middle East, including the Palestinian people. The agency supports full civil and human rights for all who live in the State of Israel, as well as the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights, regardless of in whose political authority they dwell. Meretz USA firmly believes in and supports those both within and beyond the borders of outside the State of Israel working for a fair and just society for all within Israel.

Palestinian Centre for Human Rights
URL: http://www.pchrgaza.org/
Description: The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR) is an independent legal body based in Gaza City dedicated to protecting human rights, promoting the rule of law, and upholding democratic principles in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

Prospects for Peace
URL: http://www.ariga.com/peacewatch/
Description: A compelling and thought-provoking analysis that portrays the peace process as doomed to fail as long as it remains inconsistent with the national goals and identities of both Israelis and Palestinians. According to this article, both sides see a continuation of the conflict as preferable to the painful compromises that might bring about peace.

Rebuilding Homes
URL: http://www.RebuildingHomes.org
Description: The Rebuilding Homes Campaign brings together Palestinians, Israelis and Internationals to rebuild homes in Palestine. In the tradition of Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela, this Palestinian and Israeli partnership is peacfully resisting the policies of Occupation by rebuilding demolished Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem, the West Band and Gaza.

Speaking Tours
URL: http://www.episcopalchurch.org/ens/2000-026.html
Description: The 70-year-old-plus wife of a former American diplomat organizes speaking tours of America by Middle Eastern women through her small organization called Partners for Peace. These women relate their personal experiences of living with the fear, war, and violence in their homeland, in the hope that Americans will gain a better understanding of the situation and want to help. The speaking tours have been phenomenally successful.

Ta'ayush Arab-Jewish Partnership
URL: http://taayush.tripod.com
Description: A group of Israeli citizens, both Arab and Jews, involved in direct action in and out of the territories.

Time line for Israeli / Palestinian conflict
URL: http://www.mideastweb.org/timeline.htm
Description: A time line of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict from 1914 to 2001.

U.S. Involvement in Israel / Palestine
URL: http://peace.moveon.org/r.php3?redir=80
Description: 2006 will be the 50th year of American efforts to bring about an Israeli/Palestinian peace. The BBC's article on this coming anniversary summarizes these diplomatic efforts, and their failure thus far.


http://peace.moveon.org/middleeast.php3

[Wonder]

49. That is Putting the Palestinian Cause Front & Center

Bringing together Palestinians, Israelis and Internationals. Come together right now over peace. If you just let the RW propaganda lead you (Israel AIPAC or US Christian Co or Bushco). You are cheated of the full picture. It is not hopeless. The RW fanatisms just wants you believe the Palestinians are a lost cause. In so many ways, in terms of human, their cause is the main event. Go pro-palestinian lobby!!

[Darranar]

50. Very interesting...

Too many for me to visit all at a time, but I went to a few that interested me.

"Brief History of Middle East Conflict" was pretty interesting, and surprisingly objective. There were a few places where I dsagreed with the author(s) but it still was pretty much completete and accurately portrayed both sides. I recommend that anyone who doesn't understand the history around the conflict read it.

"Americans for Peace Now" was a little disjointed. I couldn't find my way to the main articles. Perhaps I'm simply too tired.

[Tinoire]

54. I haven't visited them all either!

But certainly plan to. That list is so extensive I barely know where to start.

You know, I was surprised to recently find out that there are 3 million voting Muslims in this country. Silly me, I'd never paid much attention to numbers so that caught me by surprise.

In 2000, they feel for that divisive machiavellically exploited abortion issue and were a decisive voting bloc for the Republicans. Because of Bush's "Crusade", he's lost all of those votes and he knows it. IMO, this is his major reason for making all that noise about the Road Map- well, that and to capture as much of the Jewish vote as possible thinking that if he seems as if he's on the verge of bringing some sort of peace to the region that he will capture both those blocs.

I think his tactic is going to mis-fire with both groups but wouldn't it be great if WE got both groups? This is another plus I see for Kucinich, in addition to attracting Greens and disillusioned independent progressives.

I'm too tired tonight too. Talk to you some other time. Peace :)

[Wonder]

55. Darranar before I sign off

the polarity sucks! I have been on various forums on and off with this issue and it is like sides must be drawn immediately and completely. I have always found it so interesting that some of those of Jewish Faith feel themselves the sole authority on the objectivity of the Arab accounts or the so called Palestinian narrative. you know why? because when I first came to this history, I listened to the Jews first and foremost. Why? because Jews I know. I am familar with Jews.

And what I came to find out as that while those of Jewish faith seem to think they are the authorities of the Palestinian account of history, commenting on it's objectivity. It strikes me so ironic because the patented arguments and some of the official accounts of Israeli History that one runs across on forums leaves some very important points out. Especially the propaganda agenda of the RW Likud.

Their story is that Israel is only defending itself and they are sticking to it. No matter how it infringes upon the Palestinian Story. It is there turn to tell their story.

Have you ever read Benny Morris' "Israel's Secret War's"?

I am too tired right now. But there is a very poetic and piognant quote by Rabbi Tamaret. He died in 1931. Initially he embraced the zionist movement wholeheartedly, but over time he became a critic (which isn't to say it is either or). According to the article I am reading presently in Tamaret's view "if Jews were to adopt the tactics of violent stagecraft, a grievous moral injury would be inflicted on all of humankind."

I am not advocating anti=zionism. I understand the word zionist or zionism carries with it a wide range of meanings as well as it's share of contravercy, at least the way I have come to understand it thus far. I do realize it was the militants of the zionist movement that is first and foremost responsible for the establishment of the state, as well as it's maintenance. But there is something so piognant about this rabbi's discourse. Tomorrow I will quote one of the paragraph's the damn story is not on line. so I have to type it and I am just a bit too tired.

[Gimel]

68. Land use

Only small areas were cultivated before the Jewish settlers started arriving on the first Aliya in the 1880's. The way the land was used by the relatively sparse population before 1930 or so, the inhabitants were able to survive by moving crops and herds around to various areas that were cultivatable according to draught patterns. They could gather natural produce, and hunt wide areas, as the need arose.

With a larger population, more scientific farming and irrigation methods were necessary. That's what the European Jews brought with them. The First Aliya was primarily composed of a few hundred Jews from Russia and a few from Yemen. They cleared land, and set up two Jewish communities. Both which are thriving cities today.

[tinnypriv]

13. "Much of the land of Palestine was uninhabited back then"

LOL.

[Darranar]

15. See post #14...

There were indeed sections of Palestine taht were uninhabited.

[tinnypriv]

16. Right

"Sections" isn't "much", is it?

[Darranar]

17. It depends on how you look at it.

n/t

[tinnypriv]

20. LOL

I rather think it doesn't. :)

[Wonder]

18. Is Uri questioning any claims to the land?

I am not sure what your post has to do with the article posted. And yes I am aware of all the history you point out, as well as being familiar with the rationales offered to justify all of the means upon which the State was formed and maintained. Some have merit some do not.

Which revisionist history are you referring to? The Israeli Revisionists? British? American? Or that pain in the ass Palestinian Narrative? Or solely the Militant Islamists? The Jews within the zionists movement consciously chose to adopt tactics of violent stagecraft which has had grievious consequences. These consequences have eroded to some degree a sense of morality that has not only harmed innocent Palestinians, but in the word's of Rabbi Aaron Samuel Tamaret in critical analysis of Political Zionism, "clearly imperils the character of Judaism..."

There are aspects of the political zionist movement that must be examined within the context of Jewish exclusivity wherein early members of the movement were dead set upon full transfer of the lowly less than Arabs that toiled that very land. Do I mean ALL Israeli's. No of course not. All Israeli Leaders. No of course not. Even Ben Gurion backed off transfer back in 1948, I am aware. However, there too is the matter of Israel "sacred" Terroristic tactics devised to push forth expansionist goals. These goals submerged under the more popular israeli and US doctrine that still insist Israel has only and always defended itself so the Palestinians should just stop whining because Israel is the winner and they are the loser.

That said, If I can come to the history and distinquish between what within Israeli tactic was moral, what was herioc (in the sense of harboring the refugees from Germany at the end of the Holocaust), and what was nothing short of terrorism aimed purposely at Arabs and Palestinian in a deceptive attempt to further goals of expansionism on their way toward realizing Judea and Samaria, why is it it seems you find it so hard to objectify the history from the Arab perspective?

Just that unspoken desire for Great Israel turns your question to me back around to you. Is it not true to some degree than Israel also questioned the claims made by the Arabs to their land, and to their homes that were demolished in the 60's and the 70's (oh I forgot that was just the spoils of war) as well as their right to exist dating as far back to early Jewish Immigration to land upon which the Balfourists had set their eyes?

Do you believe, what is termed, Arab Aggression only started in and around the Peel commission and was specific only to the Jews in all the world? What ax does the Arabs in general have to grind going back through the history? And At present do you really believe Israel is going anywhere, least of all into the sea? And that the majority of Islam calls for the total destruction of Israel? Of course now it all beings to spiral out of control. With the various VULTURES circling round the current carnage as it continues to unfold.

Have you no sense of the Palestinian grievance against Israel as well as the west? That it has as much righetousness as the zionist movement had? What about the methods of propaganda that have been at play here from almost the beginning? Honed masterfully from the 50's through the 80's. They were quite exact the methods and strategies employeed, as outlined in Livia Rokach's study, to name just one. Are you familiar with this study in specific terms. It is common knowledge. And it represents certain causal factors that caused some of the hostility against Israel along with surrounding Arab Countries questioning the right for the state to exist.

While I certainly understand the genesis of Jewish Resistance and even some of the rationales which justify some the immoralities employeed, what is up with the denial? Especially now when so much is at stake from purely a human perspective.

Damn if the Israeli claims can go back to the Kingdoms of David and Solomon so too in an effort to cultivate some understanding of the righteousness of the Arab Palestinian cause, must we go back to perhaps TE Lawrence and the bogus promises that were made to the Arabs... as if the various Arab tribes were clueless as to the self interest of the British Authority all promises it seems verbal as far as I can see, most implied. So Why not go back to there empire in was it 700AD, I can not recall. It is not like these people do not right to stand by claims of their own however much western imperalism has succeeded in undermining them.

If we remain polarized in this fashion, those that insist on making this black and white only are no advocate of peace, but instead remain resolute with militarism which has failed miserably. Just advocates of a bankrupt status quo. Determine to only focus on the doctrine and the propaganda of both Israeli and Militant Islamists. Doctrine some of us see right through for what it is: only a portion of a very complicated saga. Much of which has brought us here. As well as Palestinian's inability to mobalize with equal resistance or turn themselves to non violent methods themselves. Get Real. Israel is here to stay. And unless transferred outright the Palestinians have not yet been fully defeated whoever in shambles it seems they really are. Stop Whinning and see if you can look at this in more objective terms.

If you are not familiar with the Rokach study I will be happy to place it here. It is quite informative. This is so much more multifaceted and multifactorial than so many of these discussion seem to reveal, so so concerned with the harm done Israel, the aggression toward Israel, some real, some imagined, some exaggerated to exploit very exacting tactic aimed at hiding true intent to expand Israeli Territory. Rarely do I ever hear discussion from the Israel side of what harm they have caused others. As if Israel hasn't questioned the right of Arabs to exist or even coexist.

In all due respect and with my apologies I had made a pact with myself to steer clear of those aspects of the debate that just continues to drag us round and round.

[Darranar]

22. I still don't think that you understand...

The conflict for land lies at the heart of the whole affair. My post was about the conflict for land, and the justification for the continued existence of the state of Israel.

I have said it before, and I will say it again: Israel has commited human rights abuses. I do not support the settlements. I do not support a Greater Israel. I do mot support the attacks by Israelis on Palestinians.

Yet neither do I support the actions by Palestinian terrorists,; the ruthless slaughter of innocent civilians.

I acknowledge the atrocities and abuses commited by both sides. I akknowledge the right of the Palestinians to have a state. I acknowledge the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state.

I have great sympathy for the Palestinians, but I have none for the terrorists. Similarly, I have great sympathy for the innocent Israelis, targets of terrorism, but I have none for the IDF soldiers that kill in cold blood and abuse the Palestinians.

After MLK's assasination, RFK said: "What we need in the United States is not hatred; what we need in the United States is not violence or lawlessness; but love and wisdom, and compassion toward one another, and a feeling of justice toward those who still suffer within our country, whether they be white or they be black." The same principle applies here, if with different specific examples. I wholeheartedly support the two-state solution as a solution to the situation.

The article above shows tremendous sympathy for violent, bloodthirsty terrorists, who have no love or compassion for the innocent Israalis that they massacre. That sympathy ignores the fact that the suicide bombings accomplish nothing and they end up causing the deaths of hundreds of people.

The Palestinians have little justification to hate the innocent Israelis that some among them murder; they do have justification to hate cold-blooded and cruel IDF soldiers, which are not anywhere near all of them.

[Wonder]

25. Uri Avnery sees the Palestinian at eye level.

He writes from a very wide frame of reference wherein he understands the Palestinian Resistance. Like Jewish Resistance, Palestinian Resistance also has included terrrorist acts. He has not fixed on just the last 6-7 years.

He provides us with his analysis of the successes of their Resistance which as mostly THEY HAVE NOT BEEN SUBDUED at a very higher price to Israel, because they have indeed kept their cause alive on the international stage.

He condones neither violence or terrorism from either side, but instead bases his analysis not on bigotry but within the context of pragmatic relativism understanding one side fights for their right to self determine, and clearly he supports the end of the occupation.

The ceasefire is fragile and he places some of its success upon the desires of the palestinian people and the ability of Abbas to negotiate, listing all the valid points of negotiation from the Palestinian perspective.

He is a critic of the Sharon Government and its policies and its strategies. In his effort to enlighten a terrorized Israeli population he also speaks quite cynically of an Israeli militarism or operation that for the most part has failed.

In essence, he outlines in this article the successes and failings from both perspectives.

I superimpose my own interpretation, when I say, it may only sound like he is condoning suicide bombing which I do not believe he ever mentioned not once, because he understands the Palestinian grievance, their cause, and their resistance out of which has come this horrible thing called suicide bombing which is a horror causing bankruptcy, death and loses on both sides.

He simply understands the terrorism within the context of the conflict from both sides without fixating upon the terrorism (either Israeli or Palestinian) but by viewing the Palestinian Resistance at eye level.

That said he also expresses a certain level of cynicism which is reflected in his last paragraph, "What now? Real negotiations? Negotiations that are nothing other than make-believe? Efforts by both sides to court the Americans? American pressure on both parties to come up with some real actions? Ask Condoleezza," thereby stressing the delicate nature of the whole very sad rubrics.

The interpretation of this article, I guess is dependent on the prespective and bias a reader takes to the article itself.

Think for a moment. Why do you suppose the Palestinian terrorists outwardly stated and have continued to target Israeli citizens? Within the context of the history of this conflict why do you suppose that is?

It is possible to understand this pragmatically without condoning or supporting the violence from either side, but attempting to understand it within the context of history, from two different viewpoints, that have remained in hostile opposition to one another.

[Darranar]

26. Why do I think that terrorists target civilians?

Because most of them are racists and think that all Israelis and Jews are evil. There is no excuse for terror. It is not legitimate resistance of any kind; rather, it is the massacre of innocent civilians.

Additionally, in trying to "see from the Palestinian point of view" the author makes a few generalizations that would be condemned if they came from an anti-Israel source. He says that the Palestinians are proud of the terrorists and proud of what they are doing. That is simply not true.

[Wonder]

29. Please Israeli terrorism is excused with regularity.

Again racism exists, but that two exists on both sides. What do you believe was some of the motivating factors guiding zionist terrorist policies. Love for the Arabs?

you need to stand back.


there is another reason the terrorists or the palestinian resistance outwardly admits to targeting Iraeli civilians besides they want all jews dead. Think what could another motivating factor be besides racism?

[Darranar]

32. They want an end to the occupation... hah!

I'll believe that they'll stop when they have their state as soon as I believe that Bush did not lie about the WMDs and it was all George Tenet's fault. Both groups of terrorists, both liars.

Some Zionists were indeed racist. HAve I denied the atrocities commited by both sides? No. However, Zionism is no more inherently racist than Islam is. The belief that the Jews need a Jewish state in Palestine is not inherently racist.

[Wonder]

38. Sharon wants an end to the occupation....HAH!

Israel has never conducted bombings from the air? Are you sure?

[Darranar]

40. I agree about Sharon...

And I didn't say that Israel has never conducted bombings from the air. That is not true. I said that Israel has never conducted an intensive bombing campaign against civilian targets from the air.

[Darranar]

10. In addition...

the suicide bombings are unjustifiable. Certainly, several IDF soldiers have commited terrorist acts. I don't deny that. I don't deny that there have been human rights abuses on both sides. I do believe that glorification of the suicide bombings as "defense" and "resistance" against this "Zionist occupation" sounds more like an Arab racist then an Israeli liberal.

[Wonder]

21. the suicide bombers the suicide bombers

is that the bases of your whole arguement. Really only several IDF soldiers have committed terrorist acts. My word I am shocked.

No one is glorifying the suicide bombers but you.

As for the Arabs use of the word zionist and zionism, how could they possibly even document their history without referencing the movement, as well as the racism present within it.

I believe you need a much broader overview, Darranar.

[Darranar]

23. Umm...

Read the article you posted. It clearly indicated that the Palestinians glorified the suicide bombers, and the author came close to the line of doing it himself.

No, the suicide bombings are not the basis of my whole argument. My whole argument says, at its base, one thing: The Jews have a right to a Jewish state.. The only thing that that base is founded upon is the moral tenets that I try to follow.

The Jews have suffered dozens of instances of ethnic cleansing: Their expulsion from Spain, the Holocaust, etc. They need a refuge where they can flee if need be. That refuge needs to be mantained.

Many of the anti-semitic Arab governments opposed a refuge for the Jews. Why? Because they were anti-semitic. No, not because of the "ethnic cleansing" of the Palestinians. They only began to care when it was politically advantegeous for them to care. Their attack on Israel in 1948 was simply because it was a state of Jews; something their anti-semitism could not accept.

No, I do not say that criticism of Israel is anti-semitic. I have and will continue to criticize Israel on this very board, and I do not consider myself anti-semitic.

Criticism of Israel because Jews live there, refusal to let it exist because Jews live there, and concentration on it beyond all other, larger, human rights concerns because Jews live there, is anti-semitic.

[Wonder]

27. Because they were anti-semitic

there is truth to that at the negation of the fact that some israelis and Jews are anti-arab, and anti goy.

Yes the Jews have suffered I am not denying that fact but that does not completely justify their actions within the context of the history specific to this conflict. At one point it comes time for the Jews and the Israels in general to acknowledge some of the suffering they have caused in their righteous quest for the Israeli state.

Quite frankly, I care not anymore if my criticisms are misunderstood, presumed to be, or are mistaken as antisemitic, and I will not defend myself on that point any longer.

Israel has also refused to let the Palestinains live as equals, have occupied them under sometimes torturous conditions and to some extent continue to deny this is true, or justify it by constantly reminding us of look how much they have suffered. I am not sure you realize, but the Occupation itself was denied until quite recently when Sharon himself slipped and publically stated it was indeed an occupation.

There are two sides both have a history of suffering and diaspora, the Palestinians did not exterminate the Jews in Germany, they have not pushed them into the sea, but in fact have forced to live unequally under Jewish or Israeli Authority whose policies over the years have expelled them.

How does the Ethnic Cleansing have any bearing upon the Israeli Occupation but in an effort to explain it's existence.

there are two sides to this story , two viewpoints, two perspectives, not just one Israel controls, the water, the land, and even the Palestinian history. Israel dictates the number of their loses yet denies responsibility of having causes civilian death....shall I go on? And this is not said to make Israel the villian no matter what anyone needs to believe.

There are two sides of this story. not one. and i am not the only one that has noticed this.

[Darranar]

30. To clarify...

You are not anti-semitic. Nothing you have said makes me think that you are anti-semitic. You do not need to worry about defending yourself from me on that account.

It is true that the Jews' suffering does not excuse the atrocities commited by some. Have I not already stated that these terrorist atrocities are inexcusable? My discussion of the Jews' suffering is justifying the existance of the Jewish state, not its policies.

The Palestinians have indeed suffered-but not only at the hands of the Israelis. Jordan did not give the Palestinians their state from 1948-1967. The Jordanian government has never shown much respect for the Palestinians.

There are indeed two sides of the story, but it is not true taht you are the only one who has noticed that. Almost every poster on this board knows and understands that.

The suicide bombings are immoral inherently. Israel is not responsible for those civilian deaths. Nor is Israel responsible for the actions of a few members of the IDF in killing innocent Palestinians. Israel is responsible, however, for not bringing those criminal terrorists to justice, which is, unfortunately, what has happened.

[Wonder]

35. What civilian deaths is Israel responsible for?

I would be interested to know? Not to negate the butching of Palestinians by the jordanians, and other arab states, mind you. I am not saying Israel is the only responsible party, but that I detect and I hear regularly in arguements that somehow they do feel the sole cause of this whole mess is "Arab Aggression" and there all the responsibility falls squarely on the Arabs and the Palestinans who can not even walk freely upon land they have toiled. Wherein the lastest intifada or highly immoral and disporportionate exhurtion of Israeli might has cause death demolition punishment torment assassination of not only Hamas leaders, but their wives and children, and has created yet another exodus.

and on that note, it has been nice chatting with you, I have to mop the kitchen floor.

[Darranar]

36. Like many other governments...

Most of the deaths of civilians they weren't directly responsible for, but either could have prevented but didn't or didn't prosecute those who commited such evil acts as well as they should have.

Israel has never really conducted an intense bombing campaign on civilian tactics, like the Bush administartion in their "Shock and Awe and Kill as many civilians as possible without getting the attention of the press" campaign during the Iraq war. (I'm not sure about that claim-if I'm wrong, someone please respond and tell me what I've missed.)

They have, however, sent extremist settlers into an already populated area for so-called "security" purposes, and that is simply immoral. They are responsible in part for the horrible condtions of some of the Palestinians.

They are not responsible for the horrid situation of the Palestinians as a whole. Terrorists, Arafat, and other Arab governments take up enough that Israel hasn't even caused a majority, though perhaps a plurality, of that suffering.

[Wonder]

28. You and I have read the very same article

and came away from it with two completely different interpretations.

I did not get from this article that Uri Avnery in any way shape or form glorfied the suicide bomber. And no for a fact tikkun does not in anyway stand in support of suicide bombing.

[Darranar]

33. Perhaps I am more sensitive than you are...

But I feel that even if Uri Avnery is not pro-suicide bombings, he tries to justify them. You cannot justify the massacring of innocent civilians for terrorist purposes. The only time when killing them is acceptable is when there is no other option in order to save more innocent lives then are lost. Palestinian terror NEVER passes that test.

[Wonder]

37. I beg to differ. Uri sees them at eye level.

to be continued...

[Gimel]

53. Sufficient reason

when they were exiting the city, soldiers at Kalandia wrote down meticulously names and ID numbers, threatening the Israelis on their way home with prosecution for having broken a military order - the three-year old order forbidding Israelis from entering the Palestinian cities ("Area A").

This military order is there because of the very high percentage of Israelis that are murdered when they enter the Palestinian areas. It is for their own protection.

The Tikkun, with Rabbi Lerner's plan for imposing peace, must be rather put out. They have assured the world that Israel and the Palestinians (excuse the mention - not intended as a racist comment) are incapable or reaching peace and that a solution must be imposed using international armed forces (ie, US Army-Mariens). I think the separation wall was a much better idea.

[Wonder]

56. not sure I understand your point.

Are you saying that like Benny morris tikkun is now also advocating transfer as the most efficient solution.

My problem with the separation wall is that in figurative or metaphoric terms it represents to me aside from protection and safety, an utter disregard for Israel's responsibility in this conflict and stands as strong evidence of the depth of denial as well as their avoidance of the issues as well as the Palestinian grievance itself, particular that grievance as it is related to the aggression of the zionist movement and the militant policies of the right and the fanatic fringes. And utter lapse in conscientiousness and accountability.

At least that is one way it can be interpreted, among the many other rationales.

[Gimel]

72. Tikkun plan

Rabbi Learner's plan did not advocate transfer. He recommended that a group of nations (like the Quartet) decide where to divide the land, (in fact he outlined who got what area), and impose the peace with an international force. I'm sure you can find the plan if you go to the Tikkun site posted above.

The Wall is saving lives. An international force would result in deaths not only of the peace keepers, but of the victims of attacks when terrorists slip through the lines.

Do you think it's the Hudna that's keeping the peace now? With large sections of the wall now completed, it's kept the terrorists out. The Hudna just makes it look like it's Hamas controlling the cease-fire. In the mean time, they are manufacturing Kassam missiles. A missile might be able to be projected over the Wall.

On edit: I'm not sure if I answered the points you raised in your post. I always thought Rabbi Learner's plan, although well intentioned, was unworkable, primarily because it was to impose a solution. This would not take into account the will of the two nations and would do little to combat terrorism.

The wall is a practical measure, in my view. It is better to disturb the farm lands than to loose more lives in this conflict. The land will rejuvinate in time, and rather quickly. The populations will adjust to it. No one who lives near it likes it. Yet, it is removable. I'm not sure that the wall on the east is necessary. I don't have the necessary background or data take a position on it, other than be more skeptical that it is absolutely needed for security.

[Wonder]

73. I loathe to give in here because that wall

on certain levels is an avoidance, and I am also of the understanding it is based on Israel's dictation of borders rather than a mutual agreement on borders. However in terms of the Israeli citizens until a real more amiable peace and a Palestinian state is declared, from a security standpoint as you explain it ... it does serve a security issue. However what does it have to do with the Occupation itself?

Now Israel has a wall and an Occupation. Seems odd to me. Avoidance of the hard issues, the main grievances of the Population, almost enables continued denial. Israel, or those in Israel that are inclined can continue to believe it is all the fault of the Palestinians, they are all to blame. while it may succeed in keeping suicide bombers out, in essense the jewish homeland is now a fenced in and contained land area (I will stop short of the more obvious analogy). The wall is not a triumph look at the Jews in the homeland now enclosed, exclusive unto themselves, their leader a butcher and a terrorist himself refusing to really negotate, bides his time with hopes for transfer.

I do not believe I ever said Tikkun advocated transfer. I was well aware of their Peace Agenda as implied by their publication, although I never read any official statements on it.

[Gimel]

82. 'Operation Defensive Shield'

From the beginning of this operation, started in April 03, the goals were to enter the Palestinian areas to arrest members of the terrorist organizations. Then, once calm is established, and the wall in place, to withdraw. The wall hasn't been completed. The area around Jerusalem as well as the eastern sections remain incomplete. The troop withdrawal is underway. It began a month ago with redeployments in Gaza (already fenced in) and Bet Lehem (Behlehem). More cities are being considered for evacuation of troops at the present time, with road block removal and further redepoyments.

What are you are calling "avoidance" of hard issues? The issues of allowing Israeli citizens to be plundered and murdered where ever they are? If it's a few settlements that are the issue, the civilized way to approach the situation is through peaceful negotiations.

[Darranar]

85. The wall is a horrible thing...

It prevents the Palestinians from living as they should be able to. It doesn't let the Palestinians have as much land as they need to live. It simply emphasizes the horridness of the occupation and forces more poverty on the Palestinians.

[Wonder]

87. why or why is this most often the interpretation or the presumption

<<What are you are calling "avoidance" of hard issues? The issues of allowing Israeli citizens to be plundered and murdered where ever they are? >>

If that is what you infer from my discourse, I can not even address a question like that. Unless of course I answer it with another question. You believe their so far exists what you call "peaceful negotiations"?

In my estimation, like with oslo, all the harder issues have once again been relegated to final status, with even real table negotiations usurped by a shitload of sharon contingencies and a whole lot of stalling made to appear as if something is really being accomplished. Oh sure there has been troop withdrawal and a ceasefire, however from one article to the next outposts come down and more go up. Has there not recently been an influx of Russian Jewish immigration in to Israel?

Little good faith has been shown regarding settlements, it is like Sharon is doing them all a favor by agreeing to withdraw the IDF and just in the areas as you explain where the wall is completed. What a benevolent compromise! What a wholehearted generosity!

Rather than to presume Palestinians insist with full conviction and no room for comprise upon right of return, as the Likud talk points seem to enjoy stressing, or intend to mislead us into believing; why not put right of return up first, FRONT AND CENTER. Where is Israel's comprehensive reparation plan?

I have heard implications which suggest that israel should not bear responsbility for Palestinian Reparation? Or that reparation must be shared between Israel Jordon and Syria yet. As if dispossession and transfer is not ye old and does not go back a bit further than the 6 day war.

Rather than to answer what I believe to be the most ridiculous question however frequently it is posed, which suggests I in anyway advocate the murder and plunder of innocent Israeli citizens; instead I stand by my observation.

The hard issues are being avoided and placed once again on final status. While at the same time the rhetoric is maintained that the Palestinians will only settle for right of return, with an Israeli Reparation Plan not even drafted, not to my knowledge anyway. Where is it? Where is Sharon's Reparation Plan? Or hasn't he the time to draft it so much time spent writing up all of his contingencies, and finalizing Benny Elon's updated transfer proposal.

[Darranar]

83. The Wall....

hardly protects Israeli civilians. It simply causes more resentment and is not progressive at all to peace.

Division is not the asnwer. Seperate states is, but seperation of them with a wall is not. That will leave Jewish holy sites inaccessible to Jews.

[Wonder]

88. where does Jerusalem stand in regards to this wall?

do you know? I do not recall what the wall's designated borders are. I have to look that up, again. I know I read a number of articles on it going back to last spring or summer, but my memory is failing me on the specifics regarding it's designated borders.

[Darranar]

89. Here...

I've found a map.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Separation_Barrier/Map.asp

[Forkboy]

11. Not while so many people on both sides

have no desire for peace.

[Wonder]

19. You said a mouthful!

Clearly peace is not what all are advocating.

[Darranar]

24. Clearly...

Among those who do not advocate peace are Hamas, the Saudi government, the Iranian government, the Syrian government, Sharon, much of Likud, Netanyahu, and the other extremist parties in Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, and around the world.

[Wonder]

31. there is much grey area

are any of the generals advocating peace or just talking about it? It is a matter of leaders and religious fanatism gone seriously awry.

[Darranar]

34. I agree...

However, Yitzhak Rabin was certainly a pro-peace leader of Israel, despite the fact that he was a general. That is one pro-peace general for you. Had he not been assasinated by an Israeli terrorist, we would not be in this mess.

[Wonder]

41. I believe I understand where our disagreement lies...

You view Hamas only as a terrorist organization, while Uri brings them into the negotiation process and speaks of them in terms of resistance.

Do you know who it was that was credited with finally enabling these truces between Israel, Fatah, and Hamas and the New PA what there really is of it?

Snip
The 'Palestinian Napoleon' behind Mideast cease-fire

In jail and on trial for terrorism, Marwan Barghouti brokered a deal with militants.

By Nicole Gaouette | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
JERUSALEM – When the Israeli and Palestinian Authority prime ministers met Tuesday, they did so with an unprecedented display of bonhomie and some trusted ministers. But one man was missing - a man widely credited with engineering the Palestinian cease-fire that led to the meeting and generated momentum for the US-backed peace plan under discussion.
Snip

I am not sure what was discussed when these truces hit the mainstream, but it became that on the international scene the way the Hamas strategy was being analyze's from within the international community. This group is not considered soley a terrorist organization.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0703/p01s02-wome.html?related

more articles:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0711/p07s02-wome.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0627/p01s02-wome.html?related

Another problematic issue generally brushed to the side is that Israel and the US are both Anti-Arab and Anti-Islam. Why is it few want to dissect that, but instead we focus only on Anti-Semitism and Anti-Americanism. It simplified for the masses with little eloquence as bad bad islam is bad they all hate the Jews and are Anti-American AND with no good reason, but that they just hate the Jews and are Anti-American for no good reason.

[Darranar]

42. Hamas IS a terrorist organization...

its actions need to be stopped. Suicide bombings and the massacre of innocents is not legitimate resitance.

[Wonder]

43. Suicide bombing has to stop.

No argument there. As does all violence. But the violence will continue again, I believe it no good faith is extended in terms of these outposts and these settlements. The genesis of Hamas remains a matter of debate which I would prefer due to its contraversy we do not get into at the moment, and I myself still haven't covered Hamas to my satisfaction.

Here are the truces.

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3030480.stm


I chose to focus on mandate and partition and dropped on following the occupation and the violence since the truces. Are outposts being dismantled on course and on plan? What good Faith has Israeli Shown since the ceasefire? I do realize there has been some violence since the ceasefire, but like I said I have not been following closely since the suicide bomber enter the home of the 65 yo Israel was not connected to Hamas or Islamic Jihad.

What has happened since the truces were drawn up?

[Darranar]

44. Let me make this clear...

the name "Hamas" is not evil.If it stops its terrorist activities, all the better. The terrrorists need to be stopped. I don't think that Abbas is doing enough to stop them, however.

[Wonder]

45. There we go. That is a better use of language IMHO

I feel if there was an actual peace process that terrorist activity would dissapate in accordance with true reconciliation and the addressing of Palestinian greivance toward the creation of their state.

Unfortunately I do not see that happening, and foresee more violence on the horizon. Hopefully I am wrong. But with this new game of chicken with Iran... it is another game of 7 card stud... and now we have liberia on the front page... and the fucking Kobe Bryant trial as more obfiscation for an american people who seems easily distracted, if they are the least bit interested at all.

PLEASE NOTE:

You should double check my message #43 as I editted it and added something, you might have missed it.

[Darranar]

46. Not much of worth...

Both sides have released much rhetoric and not really done anything. Israel has been supposedly easing some of the checkpoints and working a bit towards easier transportation for the Palestinians, but that is a temporary development that won't last long - like the cease-fire with terrorists.

[Wonder]

47. and in the mean time people like you and I and others

somewhat obessessed with the topic, discuss. Are you Israeli?

no movement regarding these outposts, a very important aspect of this especially in terms of good faith. see I really believe if Sharon did not have other aims, more organization and vision existed within the palestinian leadership and the US/UK brokers real would broker this thing fairly which I do not believe they have any intension of doing. The terrorist issue would take care of itself.

Sharon is playing a waiting game and would rather exploit the weakness of an enemy that is already down. and again Arafat is problematic, Abbas I feel his hands are tied, he needs to take more initiative in regard to making some of his own more proactive stance for the Cause.

many comprehensive plans should be drafted already, and Bush would rather go step by step rather than put a comprehensive plan for the roadmap on the table. Us is clearly willing to throw money at Abbas, but what is he giving away for this money, he is in the weakest of the negotiating position, that is if he articulated some real vision. See me, I would take this opportunity to compile my own comprehensive roadmap for my people.

I am repeating myself... like I said this is not all about the terrorists...

[Darranar]

48. Of course this is not all about the terrorists...

No, I am not Israeli, but I am Jewish. If you wish to know something like that, you can always check their profile-the little head-and see if they have the nationality on that.

The peace plan isn't working and isn't detailed enough. Sharon has no inclination to do more than the bare minimum for peace. Abbas, as you said, can't really do anything, and Arafat is completely unwilling to do much for peace.

Since the international community is unwilling to compile a just and detailed plan for peace in the middle east, a plan that will include their constant aid to push things along, and the major leaders in the situation are not really capable of doing anything for peace, the situation isn't going to get any better anytime soon.

[Wonder]

52. generally I do not wish to ask about it. It was your screen name.

It had me thinking you were not american is all. I sensed that you might be Jewish. It seems to me the Jewish imago in terms of this debate is wide and varied. I never usually ask or wonder about peoples religions or cultures. I just came out. I let it stand. Rather than censor it.

[Darranar]

58. My screen name is made up...

Its only purpose is a screen name. I grew up in the US, and I speak English with fluency, and also simple Hebrew.

[Gimel]

64. Not sure if you remember

but I noted this fact from Ha'aretz articles, that Marwah Barghouti was the negotiating force in the Hudna, which however, is not a truce between Israel and Hamas or the other terror organizations.

Barghouti desperately wants to get a free ride out of jail on the coattails of this Hudna. The Hudna was set up by an agreement between Hamas and Islamic Jihad with the PM Abbas. Abbas has the link to Israel as a peace partner. Egypt's Mubarak also played a role in this. His interest is pushing the Road Map forward for his allies in Washington who forgave the 300 billions of US dollars in loans to Egypt.

Abbas alone could not have done this without Barghoutis consent and pressure on Hamas.

[Wonder]

66. not a truce between Israel and Hamas

I wasn't suggesting that. I have beening following the process am aware all who played a role. I figure the article on Barghouti might have already been posted here it is old news, but I wasn't sure.

So what you are saying is he was used as a pawn, rather than that Hamas also has some legitimacy not just as a terrorist organization. I mean Barghouti is not just some retired field hand from the olive grove, which has been since demolished.

I would have to do more research into him according to the article, he educated, not an islamists and could prove helpful in terms of Palestinian Politics. Yes I realize he is considered a Terrorist, but if this played out differently during the course of so is Sharon, and so was Haganah before going legit.

[Wonder]

51. Again there was much viable critism of the Oslo peace process

that IMHO remains viable and can be applied to this peace process.

This is a spit in the bucket and some tend want to leave the Palestinian dissidents to the Oslo peace process out of the debate.

2002
http://www.counterpunch.org/saidoslo2.html
http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index.cfm/action/tikkun/issue/tik9903/article/990312b.html

2003 comments on current roadmap
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v25/n12/said01_.html

Here is an Review Said did of Judith Miller's Book, "God Has Ninety-Nine Names: Reporting From a Militant Middle East". You seem open minded. The review will give you an idea of how Islam can be maligned unnecessarily by those on the right and the US media and anti-islam and anti-arab agenda. I will let the review speak for it itself. And only snip one paragraph he includes regarding Hamas, only because Hamas came up in the discussion.

snip
This appalling failure of analysis is especially true in the chapter on Israel (mistitled, since it is all about Palestine), where she ignores the changes caused by the intifada and the prolonged effect of the three-decade Israeli occupation, and conveys no sense of the abominations wrought on the lives of ordinary Palestinians by the Oslo accords and Yasir Arafat's one-man rule. Although Miller is obsessed with Hamas, she is clearly unable to connect it with the sorry state of affairs in territories run brutally by Israel for all these years. She never mentions, for instance, that the only Palestinian university not established with Palestinian funds is Gaza's Islamic (Hamas) University, started by Israel to undermine the P.L.O. during the intifada. She records Mohammed's depredations against the Jews but has little to say about Israeli beliefs, statements and laws against "non-Jews," often rabbinically sanctioned practices of deportation, killing, house demolition, land confiscation, annexation and what Sara Roy has called systematic economic de-development. If in her breathlessly excitable way Miller sprinkles around a few of these facts, nowhere does she accord them the weight and influence as causes of Islamist passion that they undoubtedly have.

end snip
http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=19960812&s=said

[Darranar]

57. I agreee completely about the right and the US....

There is racism against Msulims and bias against Muslims in our country. That bigotry, unfortunately, partially dictates US policy.

I read the last link (the snip caught my eye) but I disagree with the author of the review. The sorry state that the Islamic world is in is not due to Israel. It is due to US, British, and French imperialism in the region.

[Wonder]

59. The Author Doesn't Negate That

as far as the Islamic world is concerned. His bone to pick with Israel specifically stems from the IP conflict and that aspect of the zionists that worked in collusion with the UK, which some call the Balfourists. In solidarity with "Israel right or wrong" a percent of American Jews like to malign Islam as well and even Said's biography, in their undaunted effort to maintain Israel's innocence, in their effort to silence, or discredit ALL OF HIS VIEWS.

In the meantime Said is was a Native Palestinian and was a refugee. He is a ME scholar and his perspective is as worthy as any other ME Scholar. It is a shame Israel and RW American Jews have to go so far right in hatred. Said makes all the distinctions. Judith Miller I believe advocates from the right is clear anti-Islam, anti-Arab and anti-Palestinian. While at the very same time even Israeli's belly ache about how the Palestinians have not matured in terms of producing scholars, historians, politicians, etc. How can Palestinians be expected to mature if forced to remain under Occupation wherein every word they utter falls under bigoted scrutiny. They can not even count their dead, for all the killings that are still denied by the RW Lukid and Labor governments. How can they maintain their identity?

The truth is Palestinians have no been afforded their voice. Particularly in terms of American mainstream. So RW Pro Israel advocates to this day can get a way with maligning their history and their religion. While Israel remains guilty of nothing, still only defending themselves. It is unbelieveable to me that a country responsible for this heinous occupation still manages to delude themselves so and with the help of a percentage of fanatic and right wing American Jews Israel right or wrong. Look at the price. Watch Israel completely avoid, deny it, and side step all criticism with rationales relevant to the 1940's but also serve to muddy the waters in terms of Israeli accountability. Without will not be peace. This is a tragedy in and of itself.

anyway, is this another article wherein two people read it and come away with two different interpretations.

I believe he correlates the US and Israel in this article because Israel in ways has been a foothold in the gulf for the US. Certainly western imperalism and colonial occupation played the greatest hand in causing much hostility prior to Mandate, and Said is a Scholar and makes that distinction.

He pulls Israel into the equation in regard to their expansion in Palestine which is referred to as the Pax Israelica. This review aside, It is my feeling that the PNACers ME policy has been pulled together with Israel's security in resources in mind, and thereby it is just purely nationalism and patriotism and protectionism of the Jewish state which has people negating that fact. The Iraq invasion greatly benefits Israel, in regards to oil and water.

Of course Israel likes to keep itself in the background here and denies having anything to do with the PNAC policies of the neocons. Once again Israel can maintain its innocence and continue to contest that all the hostility toward Israel is purely irrational hatred of Jewish. It is tired propaganda at this point.

The reason I placed the review was to stress how certain authors who profess themselves to be fair criticise actual to injustice to the Arab world by way of not telling the whole world. And purposely maligning Islam. Israel has certainly had a hand in sabatoge like this.

To equate all of Islam with the fundamental islamists would be to equate all of Judaism with that fundamental Jewish fringe calling for Greater Israel because of prophesy, and to equate all of Christianity with Jerry Fawell and the fanatic rapteurists. It is a malice and Israeli propaganda has not been a proponent of Islam in any sense, they undermine Islam as viciously as the US, as do a percent of American Jews.

The point of placing the article was to point out the racist motives of certain Jewish factions dead set on maligning Islam for bigoted and closed minded purposes. I say how dare a people who have subjected to similar religious persecution so cavalierly malign another religion and now with the help of the christians. Especially considering their own religious fanatism which is as bigoted as all others.

[Darranar]

60. I understand why you placed the review...

and the point raised is correct.

The main imperialistic problems in the area were started long before the state of Israel. The sate of Israel was hardly a puppet of the US< and still is not. They are not imperialists in the sense that though some desire a greater israel, they hardly desire a Pax Israelica in the Middle East.

[Wonder]

62. Pax Israelica

Is a matter of debate and as always the appropriate terminology is required. I have come across the term in my reading.

Israel would like water and oil and act in collusion, support, and intandem with the imperalists, they are to some degree intermediaries, In this regard they are guilty of what some call a pax Israelica by association. It can be argued Israel's needs have been considered the PNACers plans in regard to reconstructing the ME.


Here is the Livia Rokach study. It is not the only one. She speaks in terms of the Pax Israelica.

http://abbc.com/historia/zionism/rokach.html

[Darranar]

67. If you view it that way...

then there is a Pax Brittania in the Middle East? The British government supported the war in Iraq, didn't they? And a Pax (whoever was in the "coalition of the willing") as well?

Though the current government, unfortunately, in Israel is pretty much pro-PNAC, not all Israelis are like that. I know an intelligent and strongly pro-Israel woman, and also an Israeli citizen, who has called the war in Iraq "stupid."

I bet that there are plenty of anti-war Israelis. Weren't there demonstrations against the war in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv?

[Wonder]

70. agreed.

There are anti-war Israelis as well as anti occupationalists. I guess there is as aspect of this conflict that is kind of on autopilot in that it is the velocity of the cycle of violence that has taken on its own life.

It is when one arrives here that I tend to look with scrutiny again at simply the mechanisms of control and how important it is for Abbas to transcend them. I tend to be a romantic and believe in magic.

If Abbas could cull more press, and articulate these same demographic distinctions among his own people along with the help of the Israeli moderators who understand the indoctrinations evident here a peace process might have a better chance.

As to the Pax Israelica, I believe it may be coined from the original Pax which is the Britania, as it relates to those expansionist goals Rokach discusses in her study.

[Darranar]

76. Umm...

Wasn't the original use of the term in reference to Rome, Pax Romana?

I agree about Abbas.

[tinnypriv]

71. Yes

About 2,000 people if I recall. That is proportinally about 26,000 demonstrating in Britain.

[Wonder]

74. I am also aware of the demonstrations in tel aviv

I generalized in an effort to make other points. I am astutely aware of the political demography.

ON EDIT

and like the peace movement in the US it is and has been as impotent in stopping the war effort.

[Darranar]

77. Or 92,000 in the US...

which is quite a bit less than there were here. Of course, the US was going to war, and the Israelis weren't.

[Wonder]

79. and as I stated on edit for the most part just as impotent ...

as the peace movement in the US.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php#2596

[Darranar]

81. I know...

I think that the peace protesters knew that. They wanted to make a stand in support of what they believed, however futile it would be to stop that unjust war. They wanted to show the world that not all Americans are war-mongering PNAC fools.

[Wonder]

84. They were rendered impotent as well and partially due to heart

though they were anti-war they did not want to appear anti-soldier, and opted to go underground in support of the troops. By the looks of things the troops are having problems with morale and soldiers themselves have begun to critize the pentagon.

At present might be just the time to back on the streets not in protest against the war per se but more specifically against the PNAC. And in support of a commencement on the roadmap, I mean negotiations, not this bullshit rhetorical lipservice we have had to put up with. In support of Palestinian soverignty. In support of continued cease-fire.

It would be matter of choicing the right slogans

[Darranar]

86. Agreed completely...

But in support of more than that. In support of international justice that the US is subject to. In support of an anti-corporatism plan that will aim towards international fair wages laws. In support of an end to terrorism and violence.

We need to make our goals broad and long-term, and then apply them to the current world situation.

[Wonder]

63. Catch 22

I have thrushed this out a bit more.

It is a shame Israel and RW American Jews have to go so far right in hatred. Said makes all the distinctions. Judith Miller I believe advocates from the right is hatefully anti-Islam, anti-Arab and anti-Palestinian. While at the very same time even Israeli's bellyache about how the Palestinians have not matured in terms of producing scholars, historians, politicians, etc. How can Palestinians be expected to mature if forced to remain under Occupation wherein every word they utter falls under bigoted scrutiny. They can not even count their dead, for all the killings that are still denied by the RW Lukid and Labor governments.

When Israel in defense of itself, in their effort to maintain the doctrine which omits most all of their dastardly participation in this conflict, how can the Palestinian maintain their identity (even in terms of just the propaganda let alone the occupation)? Palestinians aren't even allowed to articulate themselves without being maligned by reviewers, who with lies vilify their every utterance, contesting birthplaces even. And why? Because to some extent Israel/GOI (historians with a nationalistic agenda) refuses to do some needed inner inventory. And even if the majority of the Israeli population does, the Israeli doctrines, the talkpoints of the RW Likud attempts to undermines all efforts of the Israel left, as well as the Israeli dissidents? You can not tell me Arabs have an equal voice. And yes even as I write I realize that Arab Americans like Jewish Americans are utlimately responsible for being heard. But can we let them talk for god sakes with AIPAC or some RW propagandist with political clout jumping in and shitting all over them?

Even the indoctrinated anti-arab, and to some extent anti-goy sentiments are denied fervently or if not denied are left unadmitted to the extent that the Jews (I mean that in the general sense) as well as the Israeli's are always pointing the finger outward. The exclusivity of the religion and the culture is undeniable, and some o that has bred superiority, which to some degree IMHO stems from a pretty acute persecution complex.

Even the teachings of the Kabballah inform Jews that they are born more equipped to receive the spiritual energy because they are born connected to it, whereas those disconnected are "non-jews" not born as attuned to the spiritual wisdoms of the holy land. Of course all religions have their version of this, but for the long history of jewish persecution, which seems now to have given some Jews license to hate so blindly connected to the Holyland to Israel right or wrong. When one considers the American Jewish population... I don't know there is a great irony evident here. A kind of sad karma is being played out.

I certainly do not take anyone's suffering away, and no way wish to trivialize that suffering of the Jews however, to a degree are they not doing just that as persecutors of the Arab Palestinians, a suffering many Jews can not empathesize with whose cause they can not even understand in human terms, and yes I am generalizing.

When I consider the Israeli's only I most certainly understand an inability to understand the Palestinian Resistance and Cause and how it is similar to the Jewish Resistance and Cause (even from a religious stand point). Israeli's would have a harder time objectifying this because they are being attacked (at the denial of the harm Israel has done the Palestinians).

Where I have the most trouble is with the American Jews, those that I encounter on forum so hateful and bigoted expressing no understanding what so ever. There is a good portion of American Jews who have not settled in Israel and have never gone. For me, there is so much to empathesize with. I can empathesize with both sides. I understand the Jewish rationales which serve as justifiction for the zionist Use of militism/terrorism/deceptive propaganda/even lying, but that does not negate the fact that in fighting for their state they have now persecuted another group (yes I realize the parallel isn't exact). Do you see my problem here, or should I say my point?

Anyway now that I got that off my mind. And you see that strange karma. Just that alone I find sad, especially since I in my lifetime, I have always heard the Jews are the beacon of light and wisdom. Man, I look over yonder Israel way and what I see is darkness talk about being disconnected from the spiritual essence. I know it seems like people are being harder on the Jews and surely they are not guilty of having committed a travesty the likes of the crusades, but look a little closer... this is kind of a Judeo-Christain crusade especially if you are following the hateful anti-arab propaganda on this, and it is not only Christians, but Jews are for it based on deceit, deception, half truth, and in instances lies.

Sorry you can not just pull the Israeli's or those Jews crying for blood out of the equation here and continue to profess Israel is innocent and Jews are the light of the world. I hope you understand I am speaking in general terms - in an effort to make the point I am making. You get on these forums and not just this one and the damn debate is so polarized rarely to you get to hash through some of the things that come to mind and I dare not ever raise this topic in real life... I bearly get a word in and I am vilified as something I am not. Between the Republican and the Jewish Issues here. Forget it. Tie me up and gag me.

Anyway, I hope I haven't insulted you or anyone but this is not just black and white.

[Darranar]

65. Okay...

There is VERY LITTLE basis for being anti-goy in the Talmud, Bible, etc. There are racists and extremists among the Jews who believe there is, but those people exist in every religion.

There are Israelis and Jews crying for blood. There are misguided Jews like those in AIPAC who blindly support Israel and label any legitimate criticism as anti-semitism.

There are groups out there speaking for the Palestiniam side. Saying that the Palestinians have no support and no one who will listen to them is as wrong as saying the Israelis don't. Both sides have groups supporting them.

I don't agree with your generalizations of American Jews. Though there are some extremists, I know several Jewish people who are strongly pro-Palestinian. I myself do not consider myself similar in opinion to the neocons in AIPAC, and I am an American Jew.

The extremist Zionists have indeed abused and oppressed a population of people. Unfortunately, extremists within that people have sent terrorists to kill innocents, Likud or Merretz or Labor or Shinui or Tikkun or whatever; bombs can't tell the difference.

There are Jewish bigots, Israeli or not Israeli. There are Christian bigots as well, and Muslim bigots. I reject their hard-right beliefs in racism and intolerance, whatever religion they come from. I am proud to say that I am not simply an American Jew, but that I am a liberal American Jew who believes in tolerance, compassion, and justice for all peoples.

I don't like the Judeo-Christian movement against Muslims any more than you do, nor do I deny its existence, or the participation of Jews. Whatever you think I have said here, I make this clear: I do not fight violent Islamic extremism as much as I fight violent extremism of any kind, including Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, whatever.

[Wonder]

69. I don't agree with my generalizations of American Jews

either to tell you the truth. I have in my lifetime never experienced the Jews in the way I generalized it, nor in the way it seems they are being represented on a number of the political forums, or in the way I have experienced the RW extreme on forums. Very off putting. Why too much was being denied. The superiority that comes across in the arguments along with the insult can anger people, not to hate all jews but it can create unnatural and unnecessary distance.

I always thought and experienced Jews as liberal, some leftist. The debate does seem to bring out the extremes, initially I was very startled by the voice of the extreme Jewish right whose voice is quite prevalent on forums wherein the IP conflict is discussed. It appeared to me at first those most liberal almost transform into their extreme form within the IP debate with no admittance of their own bigotry while pointing out the bigotry of others. As it seemed that voice was the loudest, and many times the most rudely condescending, I myself became somewhat reacionary to it, almost too polarized myself in rebuttal to it.

I realize it is a misnomer to make statements like there are Jewish bigots and leave it at that. My apologies if that is how I came across in my last post. You are most definitely an objective minded person and as such you are making some of the important distinctions required in this debate. When one polarizes there really is no debate or mindful discussion just debating tactic. That tactic in and of itself can often suppress many of the truisms.


Mostly it sounds like we are on the same page for the most part.

[Wonder]

75. So Darranar all that said.

The cease-fire will last?

[Darranar]

78. I doubt it

There are too many extremists on both sides to let it last very much longer.

[Wonder]

80. we are in sad agreement there as well

!

[Wonder]

61. And what of his criticisms of OSLO.

That was another reason I placed those links.

IMHO, the sensitivity of Jews as well as the defense mechanisms sometimes gets in the way of clear objective analysis, as well as self criticism. It is too bad especially considering the great influence of the Jewish right on American policies. Of course I also realize these Pro Israel lobbies would not have as much of an influence on policy if it did not coincide with texas oil's avarice and the PNACers desire to rule the planet.

[bemildred]

90. Nice piece.

I do like Mr. Avnery. Unlike the sparrowfarts running Israel
these days, he is a real mensch.

I will not comment as that job is already done.

[Darranar]

91. Actually...

I would like to know your opinions on some of the subjects brought up by this thread. From what I have seen of your posts, they are generally well thought out and fairminded.

Like the Magistrate, Wonder, and others, you manage to combine knowledge of the situation with fairmindedness, balance, and objectiveness.

[bemildred]

92. Aw, shucks.

Now I have to be nice to you.
:hi:

I thought you and Mr. Wonder had a good discussion.
I don't really want to intrude on it, but I come and go
all the time here, and I respond to civil engagement.

[Darranar]

93. Don't worry about being nice to me...

:) I like a good, heated debate-as long as it is civil and shows respect to all within.