Gaza fight deepens Palestinian divisions

[bemildred]

RAMALLAH, West Bank -- Israel's assault on the Gaza Strip has exacerbated the deep divisions between Palestinians who want to make peace with Israel and those who support Hamas' militant struggle against the Jewish state.

The fractures are stark in the West Bank, where sympathy for Hamas appears to be rising in the streets even as the territory's leaders suppress pro-Hamas demonstrations and blame the Islamist movement for the breakdown of a six-month truce with Israel.

Hamas shot back Wednesday, accusing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, from the rival Fatah party, of being an Israeli collaborator -- one of the worst slurs imaginable for a Palestinian.

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"The Palestinian Authority doesn't want to see demonstrations because it doesn't want to see the situation spin out of control," said Khalil Shikaki, director of the Ramallah-based Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research. "There is a great deal of anger, and there is a great deal of frustration. That anger will eventually be turned against the Palestinian Authority, and that will be the start of the process of destabilization in the West Bank."

http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20090102/WIRE/901020387/1033/NEWS?Title=Gaza_fight_deepens__Palestinian_divisions

[bemildred]

1. Gaza 2009 - To win, all Israel has to do is survive

I generally do not find Mr Burston that much of a thinker or a writer. I am posting this here because he appears to be confirming the "Abbas is a traitor" meme, perhaps not considering the effect of his words.

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And many Palestinians, grieved and furious as they are over the civilian deaths in Israeli air raids, are coming to the same conclusion.
Jeffrey Goldberg of The Atlantic, who has written eloquently of his friendships with fervent Palestinian nationalists, posted an entry this week entitled:
A Fatah Friend Writes: I'm supporting the Israeli Air Force.

"I've been talking to friends of mine, former Palestinian Authority intelligence officials (ejected from power by the Hamas coup), and they tell me that not only are they rooting for the Israelis to decimate Hamas, but that Fatah has actually been assisting the Israelis with targeting information," Goldberg writes.

One of those friends, he continues, "told me that one of his comrades was thrown off a high-rise building in Gaza City last year by Hamas, and so he sheds no tears for the Hamas dead. 'Let the Israelis kill them,' he said. 'They've brought only trouble for my people.'"

Gazans, desperate, sinking, enraged, despairing, listened to Nizar Ghayan as they had listened to no one since Yassin. Here was the heir. Here was the man who rewrote the history of Gaza and the Palestinian cause, when he issued the religious decree which allowed Hamas fighters to do what Palestinians had sworn never to do - to take up arms against and kill brother Palestinians in the 2007 Hamas-Fatah civil war in Gaza.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050962.html

[ProgressiveMuslim]

2. One could call it a division, or one could say that light is being shined.

This conflict is making clear for anyone who cares to look, the priorities of Palestinian leaders.

Make no mistake that *if* Palestinians are ever given a choice at the ballot box again (unlikely since they made the wrong choice last time out), they will not be fools.

Jeffrey Goldberg is friends with the Dahlan gang, who can't wait to get back into Palestine so they can resume their massive embezzlement.

[bemildred]

3. Well, we will see how it goes.

I don't think anybody knows where this goes.

I was just taken, as with Ms Livni's comment yesterday about the happy state of affairs in Gaza, by the way people say things without considering the consequences of what they assert.

I do think Mr Abbas cheerleading of the assault in the beginning was a big mistake.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

4. My deepest hope is that he's done.

But I did want to point out that Jeffrey Goldberg's "friend" is hardly representative of Palestinians as a whole.

I hate when that crap is presented as "fact" in the Western press.

[bemildred]

5. Oh yes, I know that.

It's not a new technique at all.

Back around 1981-2, when I was working as a software engineer, I was friends with a Palestinian guy name Nader S. Kuri (I think that's how he spelled it) who was in love with a Pakistani girl, who shall remain nameless. They were both quite worried about her families reaction to their relationship. I helped them fix their swamp cooler. Nader and I worked on the same project for about a year and a half. He was a good software guy, and one of the nicest people I ever met, which is evidenced by the fact that I still remember them clearly, and have forgotten so many that came between then and now. Anyway, I got moved, and they did not, and I never saw them again. But it did thoroughly inoculate me against attempts to dehumanize muslims of any stripe, and Palestinians in particular.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

6. Small ripples...

I know that for every person my husband has come into contact with in his personal and professional life, there has been a change of attitude about Arabs, Muslims and Palestinians...

Those ripples are also generated by my kids to their contacts as well as by me and my siblings, who all carry the banner. I know that our presence in our Philly metro community has literally changed the way hundreds of people think about the issue.

FWIW, I think Khoury is Christian family name...! Maybe there was a converstion somewhere along the line??

[bemildred]

7. You are correct. I think his family were some form of Xtian.

He was not "observant", very americanized. Came over when he was five, which I think would have been in the 50s.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

9. Up until Hamas' rise, religion was not much of an issue in Palestine.

Divisions between Christians and Muslims were nil. Not much intermarrying, but fine relations.

[The Magistrate]

11. It Was Eden, Ma'am: The Halcyon Height Of Human Society, Unequaled By Even Those Elders Of Chou

In coming millennia, moral philosophers and social scientists will look back to the society of Arab Palestine during the middle years of the twentieth century for guidance and instruction in promoting the good life and just polis for all....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

13. I never claimed Palestine was Shangri-la...

I simply stated something that was true -- for many years, relations between Muslim sects, and between Muslim and Christians, was very amicable.

Not quite sure why you feel to need to mock that.

I'm happy that the rest of the Mods don't stalk and attempt to demean posters though.

[The Magistrate]

14. Of Course That Is So, Ma'am

There has never been any conflict within Arab Palestinian society, on religious or any other lines: rather like The United States, it was immaculately conceived, born in perfection and aspiring to progress....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

15. Are you actually a moderator here on the DU?.

I find that shocking.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

16. I assume if you could actually prove your point you would do so, instead of

stalking me with childish sarcasm that is more pathetic than clever.

[The Magistrate]

17. You Really Do Need, Ma'am, To Familiarize Yourself With the History Of The Place

You would provide much less unintended comedy (by the far the best kind, of course...) if you did. My suggestion for a good starting point would be some close examination of the period of what is called 'The Arab Revolt' in the period roughly between 1935 and 1939, though stricter definitions center it at 1936 and 1937. The problem extends a good deal to either side of this period, mind, but that time brings a lot of it into sharp focus in a more modern setting.

There is very little point in asking a member of a majority population how relations with a minority group stand: most white men in, say, Mississippi circa 1950, would have replied, if asked, that relations between Whites and local Negroes were fine and friendly....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

18. I Think You Should Take Your Own Advice, Sir.

[The Magistrate]

19. Done Years Ago, Ma'am

And when you demonstrate any command of it, you may rely on me to recognize and commend the contribution to discussion of the topic here.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

20. And I will likewise commend you should you ever contribute anything of value.

[The Magistrate]

21. Mere Imitation Of An Opponent's Moves, Ma'am, Will Not Get You Very Far In This Sort Of Thing

"War is, at first, the hope that one will be better off; next, the expectation that the other fellow will be worse off; then, the satisfaction that he isn't any better off; and, finally, the surprise at everyone's being worse off."

[Douglas Carpenter]

22. you Sir are acting like a bloviating ass!

Why don't you go tell those who think that Israel did nothing to provoke wrong to provoke the Palestinians or the Arab world that they don't know what they are talking about and they are a joke? Surely you have studied enough to shoot down that nonsense. Can't you be bothered correcting that kind of misinformation?

So living in the Gaza and living in the West Bank and having direct personal knowledge of the
on-the-ground reality has nothing to do with understanding the conflict?

It is the on-the-ground reality that makes a viable and independent Palestinian state increasingly implausible. It was on-the-ground reality that convinced the majority of Palestinians that Israel was not serious about living in peace in a two-state solution. It was the on-the-ground realities that transformed Hamas from a small, fringe marginal movement into a powerful force that now has to be included at the table, for peace to be possible.

It is the on-the-ground reality that convinces many observers that the two-state solution is simply not going to happen. It is also the on-the-ground reality that 2-1=1. Therefore, there will in fact be only one state between the Jordan and the Sea. Within a generation it will be one state with an overwhelming majority Palestinian-Arab population.

A situation imposed by Israeli implementation of on-the-ground realities. A situation largely due to those who just couldn't be bothered listening to those who know the on-the-ground realities.

------------------------------

I would also remind you dear Sir, that the DU forum does have rules against stalking members and following them from thread to thread for the purpose of harassment. I would suggest you familiarize yourself with these rules if you have not done so already:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

.

[The Magistrate]

23. The Ground Of the Exchange Here, Sir, Is Not Solutions To The Conflict

It is items of historical background, namely the claim of idyllic relations between various religious communities.

Your gloom concerning the prospects of a two-state solution is pretty similar to my own; things do not look promising, even by the standards of this long dispute. But the unfortunate consequence of this will not be a single state with a majority of Arab citizens. It will be something that looks about like things look now, only worse, and more constrictive, for the several millions of Arab Palestinians who are not and never will be, Israeli citizens. That is certainly an outcome neither of us desires, and none here in this forum desire. But the actions of Hamas, and of similar militants, and their supporters, in Arab Palestine and elsewhere, are contributing mightily towards the inevitability of that outcome.

[oberliner]

26. You are opposed to childish sarcasm?

You don't make sarcastic remarks in responses to posts you disagree with?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

27. Do I follow any poster from thread to thread, posting nothing but sarcasm?

Is there anyone here who never employs sarcasm?

The Magistrate harrasses me. Pure and simple. I don't harass anyone here.

I'm not crying about it. I have him on ignore now, along with Vegasaurus, and don't really give a crap. It's pathetic though. It certainly doesn't do anything to further the liberal Zionist position.

I was having a perfectly nice side-conversation with Bemildred. Why Magistrate had to insert himself into that, I'll never know. It's his choice if he wants to make himself look like an ass.

[oberliner]

28. Fair enough

Just saying that you can be pretty sarcastic too sometimes.

[Vegasaurus]

29. Not being able to respond to legitimate holes in myopic arguments?

Just put the person on ignore!

Great strategy!

[Vegasaurus]

8. Palestininans need to decide

Perpetual war, poverty,and misery, or the possibility for a good life if they make peace?

I hope the good prevails!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. Reports out of the Arab League meeting are also split

Syria pressing for support of Hamas, Saudi Arabia, Egypt pressing for support of the PA over Hamas.

[The Magistrate]

12. A fairly Familiar Head-Line, Sir, When All Is Said And Done

Faction and fracture has been the norm, and is a leading factor in the steady defeat this people has suffered down the decades. Not even Arafat was able able to truely unify Arab Palestinian society politically.

[Adsos Letter]

24. You read the Press Democrat? The Santa Rosa Press Democrat?

[bemildred]

25. No, I live in LA.

It's a considerable surprise that I've heard of it, but I have. When it comes to news though, my tastes are catholic.

[Adsos Letter]

30. The Press Democrat Has a good reputation.

It is good to be broad-spectrum in one's news gathering, imho.

[bemildred]

31. Quite often you find things in small town papers that the big boys won't touch.

The homogenization of the MSM gets pretty boring. And their writing tends to suck in the same way, the same cliches, the same automatic dissembling of the truth, the same parroting of press releases from on high. Unfortunately, the little guys don't have the scope or resources. I have found the Santa Barbara paper tends to strike out on its own sometimes too.