Does Hamas Actually Control the Gazan Rocketeers?

[Bragi]

It is not clear from my research that Hamas actually has control over all the militant groups in Gaza, yet everyone seems to be assuming that it is either making or supporting the rocket attacks.

I found the following statement in a news article from last June...

Under pressure from Hamas, Islamic Jihad had agreed to abide by the temporary truce, which was meant to apply only to Gaza, but had balked at the idea of not responding to Israeli military actions in the West Bank.

Previous cease-fire understandings in Gaza have fallen apart over continuing Israeli raids in the West Bank and the inability of Palestinian leaders to contain the smaller groups. But Hamas has been in full control of Gaza for the last year, and Israel has said it will hold Hamas responsible for enforcing the calm.

<http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/25/africa/25mideast.php>

Needless to say, if Israel is bombing Gaza to pressure Hamas to do something it knows it cannot do, then the Israeli claim that the bombings are justifiable self-defence is clearly bogus.

I've asked this question here before without getting anything resembling a good answer, so I'll try again:

What actual evidence is there (from credible sources) that Hamas is directly, or even indirectly, responsible for the rockets being fired from Gaza?

- B

[The Magistrate]

1. Hamas Is The Government, Sir

It is the duty of a government to control violence on its territory directed against a neighboring state.

[Recursion]

2. But I think the OP's point is fair

Duty and capability are different things; I'm not convinced Hamas has the ability to stop people from launching rockets. It's also hard for me to see how destroying the only thing close to a government in Gaza is going to make Israel more secure rather than less.

[Lithos]

25. You do understand...

That these particular variants of rockets being launched were designed jointly by Hamas and Islamic Jihad and built under the auspices of Hamas and Islamic Jihad? No other groups have access to the design or facilities to produce these including the PFLP or the various Fatah armed groups.

L-

[Recursion]

28. I do, but who has them now?

I don't believe Hamas has as much control over the activities of the people in the strip, or as much internal unity, as many seem to.

[Bragi]

3. That is true in princple, but...

Your stated principle does not constitute evidence that Hamas actually does control the rocketeers.

Beyond this, if you refuse to recognize an elected government's legitimacy, if you put its people under seige, if you pulverize and terrorize it through bombings, if you target for assassination its leaders, if you demolish its security oeprations and kill its security personnel, then are you not, as a matter of fact, diminishing the ability of that government to control violence in its territory?

Aside from that, can you answer the question: what evidence is there that Hamas is able to control every militant group within Gaza that might have the inclination and capacity to fire mortar rounds at Israel?

- B

[The Magistrate]

4. The 'Elected Government' Red Herring, Sir, Can Be Dispensed With First

The fact that a people elects a particular government imposes no obligation on any neighboring state to have a friendly regard for it, or view it as anything but hostile, if that seems to the interests of the neighboring state to do. Where that government is one of a party that declares in its founding documents the intention to destroy that neighboring state, and that has reiterated this intention at frequent intervals, it can reasonably expect to meet with hostile regard. The fact is that Hamas and Israel have the relation of war with one another at all times, and simply vary the intensity with which it is prosecuted for stretches of time.

Hamas had the physical capability to have quashed Islamic Jihad; it did not have the political will to do so, since it feared to lose its leading position as the embodiment of implacable resistance to Israel. Hamas did a pretty thorough job of disarming Fatah in Gaza. The major rocket waves in recent weeks have been carried out by Hamas itself, after it took an Israeli operation early on November for pretext.

The likely point behind the present Israeli operation seems top be reducing the strength of Hamas to a point where Fatah could again take power in Gaza, in the pious hope that Fatah now would do a better job of controlling both Hamas and Islamic Jihad. This seems to me a fools hope....

[Bragi]

5. I respond as follows

I am not fussed on the matter of Hamas being elected. I agree that a neighbouring country could, in principle, be justified in warring with a neighbour irrespective of whether the government was elected or not.

You speak of founding documents. Sometimes founding documents are less relevant to immediate circumstances that more recent policy articulations. In this case, I recall Hamas clearly making statements that indicated it was prepared to negotiate a cessation of hostilities. That strikes me as more relevant at this point in this tragic tale than anyone's founding documents.

You wrote: Hamas had the physical capability to have quashed Islamic Jihad;

I note the use of past tense. Does this perhaps acknowledge that this capacity no longer exists?

You also wrote: The major rocket waves in recent weeks have been carried out by Hamas itself, after it took an Israeli operation early on November for pretext.

I would be grateful if you could direct me to something somewhere that supports your view, such as a real statement by Hamas or one of its official spokespeople indicating that it is responsible for the rocket waves, and declining to stop these attacks.

- B

[The Magistrate]

11. Here Is An A.P. Quote From Christmas Eve, Sir

Plucked almost at random in a few seconds on the back pages of this forum:

JERUSALEM (AP) -- Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip bombarded southern Israel with mortars and rockets early Wednesday, burdening diplomatic efforts to revive a truce that expired over the weekend.

A civilian was badly wounded in an explosion at a house in Gaza City. Two other civilians were lightly wounded when a rocket failed to clear the border and landed on a house in the northern town of Beit Lahiya, Gaza health officials said.

Separately, two militants were killed when an explosive they were preparing went off prematurely.

Hamas, the Islamic militant group that rules Gaza, said the bombardment was in retaliation for the deaths of three of its fighters in a clash with Israeli troops late Tuesday. Israel said the militants were planting explosives in northern Gaza along the border fence.

The past tense was used because events in the past were being referred to, namely a period when most of the sporadic attacks were being carried out by Islamic Jihad, not Hamas.

[Lithos]

26. To add

The particular variants of Qassam and Grad rockets were designed jointly by Hamas and Islamic Jihad (they combined resources including sending engineers outside of the strip to learn in Lebanon and Iran) and are unique to these groups. Also, because Hamas controls the tunnels and these rockets require specialized material to be built indigenously, these could only have been built under authority of Hamas itself. It is a unique fingerprint.

L-

[The Magistrate]

27. Thank You, Sir

Those were details that had escaped my notice over the last couple of years.

[madeline_con]

16. Should an American nut lob things into Canada, is

Canada justified in holding the U.S. government responsible and bombing us in retaliation?

[The Magistrate]

17. It Would Depend, Ma'am

If the U.S. government promptly and obviously set about arresting and trying the man in court for the violations of various laws involved, no. If an obvious good-faith effort was made which failed to result in arrest and trial, no, particularly if it were an isolated incident.

If such actions were routine, if the identities of persons performing them were known or readily discoverable, and the U.S. government made no move to bring them to an end, by patrols in the areas where the attacks occurred, by arrests and trials and convictions, then definitely, yes, the Canadian government would hold the U.S. government responsible. Given the balance of power they would have a hard time vindicating that, but that is a separate item beyond the scope of the illustration....

[Duckhunter935]

6. Yes,

they could at try and stop it, but it does not look like they are even trying, or worse yet assisting. There was a post earlier that stated the police were more concerned about price gouging.

[Bragi]

8. I understand your view

However, you offer no evidence to back it up, such as a statement by Hamas a) taking responsibility for the rocket attacks, or b) indicating their refusal to intervene with those making the attacks.

You also wrote: There was a post earlier that stated the police were more concerned about price gouging.

Be that as it may, targeting and killing police, as the Israelis are admittedly doing right now, would only make it less likely that Hamas could control whoever is firing the rockets and mortars.

[Duckhunter935]

12. Here is one article-not much on trying to stop rockets

Wearing civilian garb to avoid detection by warplanes, the officers are busy arresting merchants suspected of price gouging during the crisis.

Many security force members moonlight with the Izzidin al-Qassam Brigade, Hamas' military wing, which continues to launch dozens of rockets and mortar shells each day at southern Israeli towns.

More http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-gaza-scene1-2009jan01,0,5300518.story

[Grimm]

7. I remember a CNN video recently

I was flipping channels a few days ago and saw CNN airing an old report from August where a reporter and her cameraman were allowed to enter and film a group of Palestinians building rockets, despite the truce. I could have sworn they were Hamas members (they were wearing the green headbands over the ski masks that I think were representative of Hamas), but the only article I can find from that time period is this one:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/08/14/gaza.rocket.factory/index.html

Here it discusses that it is the PRC building the rockets in spite of the truce. That said, at the end of the article, the Israeli spokesperson says they believe PRC is nothing more than another arm of Hamas (plausible deniability, I suppose? DUers have accused the U.S./Israel of similar conspiracies). If I find anything else, I'll see what I can find.

Also even if Hamas isn't directly responsible for the rockets, there is still the issue of their acceptance of them. Would it be so hard to just say, "We don't support these rocket-lobbing terrorists in our midst?" even if they actually do nothing to actively stop them?

EDIT: Found the video. It was a PRC rocket factory: http://backspin.typepad.com/backspin/2008/08/inside-a-gaza-r.html

[Recursion]

9. You can't build rockets during a truce?

I thought you just weren't supposed to use them during a truce. I'm sure Israel acquired weaponry during the truce too.

[Grimm]

10. I don't remember the details

It's been a while and I'm sketchy on what was the deal, but the Israeli government said the building of new, longer-ranged rockets (the archived report on TV said the new rockets they built at the time doubled their range from 12 km to 24 km) would violate the cease-fire. However, that's in August and doubtful to be the main reason to the current wave of hostilities.

Not to mention, this is kind of incidental to the OP of whether Hamas was involved in PRC's actions, of which there is less clear evidence on.

[Bragi]

13. Thanks for that

The CNN article is useful, but as you indicate, it is the quoted Israeli spokesperson who calls the PRC an arm of Hamas.

I note the article contains this paragraph:

Hamas, which controls Gaza and the militant factions it contains, said that it is the responsibility of the 16 factions that agreed to the truce with Israel to respect it.

So there are 16 signatory groups -- OTHER THAN Hamas -- who signed on to the peace. That seems important to me.

The next sentence is as follows:

The PRC said it supports Hamas, but a spokesman said last week that it would return to violence if improvements, such as the opening of border crossings, don't occur.

This confirms that the PRC clearly sees itself as being an actor quite independent of Hamas, if it chooses to act independently.

Thanks for that. I would welcome whatever else you come up with on this subject.

- B

[Grimm]

14. Other articles for food for thought

I haven't channeled this much Google-fu in quite some time.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L28179562.htm

2007 article where Hamas take credit for rocket attacks against Israel. If they fired rockets then, why not now?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/30/israel-hamas-gaza

3 day old article. Guardian claims Hamas claims to have fired rockets. Looking for confirmation from another source now, but Guardian is a paper I consider good for accurate news.

EDIT: Substantiated: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6186122.html

Early Tuesday, Hamas released a statement saying its squads had fired 43 homemade rockets, 17 longer-range Grads and six mortar shells at Israel. Other militant groups also fired rockets at Israel.

Seems pretty conclusive to me that they have at least some power in this and probably more than enough to make an impact in deciding when to start or stop the rockets.

[The Magistrate]

15. The Popular Resistance Committees, Sir

Is a much travelled and somewhat shadowed body. It arose in the early days of the Second Intafada, with a good deal of its membership being Fatah personnel, mixed with members of other militant bodies. It showed in that period a professional degree of skill. Its leading chief was taken on with high rank in the Hamas government's Interior Ministry a while back, which is about as close to hand in glove as you will find, or need to find, in this sort of business.

[Bragi]

18. Okay, I'm convinced

Convincing (to me) reports have been cited here to indicate that Hamas itself at least claims to be responsible for at least some of the rocket attacks. It is also clear that other affiliated but independent organization (e.g. Islamic Jihad, PRC, etc.) are also firing rockets.

So looking forward, the key question (for me) is: Does Hamas have the power to prevent these other organizations from continuing their attacks, if it wanted to do so?

If the answer is yes, then Israel's demands are justified, since Hamas could realistically stop the bombings, and force others to do so.

If the answer is no, then the Israeli demands are not justified, since Hamas could not agree to them because doing so would expose its inability to enforce its decisions among the independent groups, and drive a wedge between them and the supporting groups.

So does Hamas have the ability to stop all the rocket attacks, or not?

- B

[Duckhunter935]

19. They could limit them drastically

[Bragi]

21. Israel demands a total stop of rocket attacks

Even when it was down to a couple of rockets a day, the Israeli were still saying they held Hamas responsible.

I guess Hamas wants to avoid being forced by Israel into the same position that Arafat found himself when he was constantly blamed for any and all suicide attacks by groups that (I think) any reasonable person would see he was unable to influence (such as Hamas).

What I'm seeing (again) here is Israel consistently adopting policies that lead to increasingly radical and hostile Palestinian leadership. As in, extremism begets extremism.

I seriously question at this point -- more than 60 years since its founding -- whether Israel will be able to survive its governments.

- B

[The Magistrate]

24. As A Matter Of Fact, Sir

A good faith effort, had one ever been made, would probably have sufficed for the Israeli public. As no such effort ever was made, comments can only be speculation, of course.

[Grimm]

20. One further question arises actually

I have no answer as to whether Hamas actually has the ability to stop the rocket attacks. The numbers, organizational strength, positioning, intelligence, etc. of both Hamas and other groups operating in Gaza is information that is out of my hand. That said, I'd modify your Yes/No issue with as such:

If the answer is no, then does Israel have the right to go into Gaza to stop rockets attacks on its citizens when the Palestinian government (Hamas) is unable to ensure the security of Israel due to rogue Palestinian citizens and if so, what level of force is allowable?

[Bragi]

22. What level of force?

I guess it would be whatever level of force it thinks it needs to use to stop the rogue groups from firing rockets. Certainly Fatah would not be of much help at this point. It seems unlikely that any amount of force short of what is needed to affect a total and permanent occupation and lock-down of Gaza would stop all rocket fire. Meanwhile, Hamas will have moved on to suicide bombings.

- B

[The Magistrate]

23. The Outcome Of The Local Clash Between Hamas And Fatah, Sir, Establishes Yes Is The Answer

Fatah is a larger and much more deeply rooted body than any of the minor militant groups. The majority of votes in the Gazan election in fact, went to parties associated with Fatah, and had these not split into two competing blocs, Hamas would have lost the election against a solid majority rather than winning by plurality in a three party race. So there can be no question Fatah enjoyed considerable support among the people of Gaza. Hamas, in a mater of days, broke and disarmed its larger rival, in Gaza (Fatah in the Jordan valley doing more or less the same to the Hamas organization there). This is sufficient to demonstrate that Hamas had on taking the reins of government in Gaza the capability to quash armed bodies it desired to quash. Its leaders refrained from quashing other smaller militant bodies not because they were incapable of it, but because doing so did not suit their political purposes at the time. They wanted to play the same, "Hey, don't look at me!" Fatah had played for years over militant attacks against Israel, and did not want to open themselves to the charge of not being militant enough against Israel that they had long employed against Fatah

[tekisui]

29. You will appreciate this report.

The circumstances that led directly to this week's military offensive began on the morning of June 19 last when Hamas and Israel agreed to a ceasefire. Hamas stipulated that it should remain in force for six months, and in return for it stopping the rockets, Israel agreed to ease movements through the border crossings.

For nearly five months, Hamas was careful to observe the ceasefire; there was a marked reduction in hostilities, with only 20 rockets and 18 mortar shells launched , compared with the previous average of 400 a month.

Israel allowed entry of more fuel, and consumer goods and construction materials. Commercial exports remained off-limits and the border remained largely closed to individuals trying to leave Gaza.

The situation began to deteriorate rapidly on November 4 when Israeli troops entered Gaza to prevent what it claimed was a planned abduction of Israeli soldiers by Hamas using a tunnel it had dug under the security wall.

Seven Hamas members were killed, prompting immediate retaliation. Over the next six weeks Hamas fired more than 300 rockets and mortar shells at Israel, which again sealed its borders.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/all-bets-are-off/2009/01/02/1230681746021.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2
___________________________________________________________________

Hamas may not be able to control all rockets, but they can greatly limit them, when they choose.

[Bragi]

30. An alternate conclusion

Hamas may not be able to control all rockets, but Israel can greatly limit them, when they choose to honour the terms of their ceasefire agreements.

[pelsar]

31. or....if hamas cant control the rockets...

then they really have no business in entering in to a "ceasefire".......nor should israel agree to such a folly since every time israel reacts to being fired upon by such a rogue group, it will be declared that israel is breaking the cease fire...... (not to mention subjecting israeli citizens to the ideal of being sitting ducks if the IDF is adhering to a cease fire that the others are not....)

[azurnoir]

37. Well sir nice to see your still with us n/t

[The Magistrate]

32. Pretty Weak, Sir

The responsibility for firing the rockets is on the people who fire them, and they fired them with the consent of Hamas, at minimum.

[azurnoir]

36. Seeing as how I am told there was nothing in writing

where thhe "cease fire" was concerned Israel for its part made up the terms as it went along such as this one

Israel to create 'special security zone' on Gaza border

"Israel has informed Hamas it will fire "warning shots" at Palestinians who enter an area west of the Gaza Strip border fence, extending for several hundred meters. Egyptian officials told Hamas of the new procedure, which is expected to raise tensions between the two sides.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=216522

Imagine if Hamas had said something similar as to whether or not Hamas could control all the rockets, no most likely IMO they could not

There is also this

Hamas arrests Gaza rocket squad

The al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a Palestinian militant group, says three of its members have been detained by the larger rival group Hamas.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7501025.stm

al aqsa is a Fatah related group, they attacked supposedly on this and other occasions because the cease fire did not iclude the West Bank

[GoesTo11]

33. How do people come up with these defenses of Hamas

Hamas isn't the girl scouts. All they ever talk about is how much they want to kill Israelis. They talk about how much they want to fire rockets at Israeli cities. They brag about how many they will send. They rule Gaza by brute force. We really don't have to give them more benefit of the doubt than Johnny Cochrane gave OJ Simpson. The glove fits.

[azurnoir]

34. The Dershowitz defense

how fitting in so many ways

[GoesTo11]

35. That's actually pretty funny.

You got me there. Damn.

But Hamas even says it fires the rockets, so now they need a double dose of Dershowitz to just break even.

[The Magistrate]

38. It Does Not Quite Scan, Sir, But Still...

ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLc2kjNlIUk

[GoesTo11]

39. I barely recognized this

as the original version of The Doors' Love Me Two Times.

[The Magistrate]

40. The Sentiment Echoes Down The Ages, Sir....