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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 08:01 AM
Original message
Abbas to lunch with Bush
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1059022254971

Mahmoud Abbas, during his first trip to Washington as Palestinian prime minister, on Thursday pledged allegiance to PA Chairman Yasser Arafat despite Washington's and Israel's insistence that Arafat is a hindrance to progress in peace negotiations.

Abbas, who meets President Bush on Friday to discuss the road map for a two-state solution, told members of the House International Relations Committee during a closed session Thursday: "The road map does not say anything about isolating Arafat. Nobody really asked us to do so."

He then added somewhat cryptically, according to one person present: "It's not my government that accepted the road map. It was the previous one of Arafat that accepted it."

Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-Florida), who asked Abbas about his pledges to continue working with Arafat, told The Jerusalem Post she found Abbas's comments "very disturbing."

"I would not say that he greatly impressed too many people in the audience," she said.

Rep. Tom Lantos (D-California) called the session "interesting" and "constructive," despite Abbas's rebuff of Lantos's invitation to visit the US Holocaust Memorial Museum.

...................................................

WTF??...
"It's not my government that accepted the road map. It was the previous one of Arafat that accepted it."

so now hes backpeddling??....



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Enraged_Ape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. Hopefully they will sing "Waterloo" to him
Um, see, ABBA was a Swedish musical group in the 70s that, uh, had a big hit at the Eurovision song contest with a song called "Waterloo".

And "Waterloo" was a war in which Napoleon finally had his ass handed to him.

Yeah, I know it was a reach. Sorry.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. Reuters: Abbas to Meet Bush, Israeli Soldier Kills Boy
snip
JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas, in Washington for White House talks on Friday, urged President Bush to stop Israel expanding Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Shortly before the meeting, an Israeli soldier killed five-year-old Palestinian boy Mohammed Qabha and wounded his six- and seven-year-old sisters as they sat in their father's car at a northern West Bank checkpoint, witnesses said.

The army acknowledged killing the boy but called it a mishap in which a soldier accidentally pressed the trigger of his machinegun. Although the death marred a lull in violence, it seemed unlikely to overshadow the talks in Washington or provoke militants to end a three-month truce they declared on June 29.

The shooting could, however, add a sense of urgency to Abbas' call for the United States to put pressure on Israel to carry out a military withdrawal in the West Bank and take other steps mandated by a U.S.-brokered "road map" to peace.

more....
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3160067&src=eDialog/GetContent
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Herschel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. He has not earned the right to visit the White House
He has not pledged to dismantle the terror groups. He scorns the road map. He refuses the trip to the Holocaust museum. Please!
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ex_jew Donating Member (627 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Why is a visit to the musuem mandatory in your opinion ?
While I'm definitely aware of the Holocaust, I feel no need to examine the evidence in greater detail. To me it seems like a form of death worship with absolutely no beneficial effects. Why obsess about an aberration ? Is the lesson supposed to be that all of mankind represents a mortal danger to the Jews, so that they must barricade themselves behind nuclear weapons and 30-foot tall walls ? If this is really the case, perhaps life is just not worth living.

And if a trip to the museum is supposed to convince Abbas that the Palestinians' plight must be ignored in the context of the Jews' larger suffering, I doubt it will work. All people are selfish, and take their own problems most seriously. I'd be very surprised if Palestinians can be convinced to give up their homeland as some kind of apology for deeds committed by Europeans more than 60 years ago. Why should they ?

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Herschel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. In his case yes
He is said to be a Holocaust denier, anti-semitic. A trip to the Holocaust museum would help rehabilitate him. Recognizing the murder of six million Jews is not obsessing, nor should one of the most horrific events in the world history be referred to as an abberation. Your comment is beyond offensive.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. It isn't really fair to say...
that he scorns the road map. His comment about Arafat's government accepting it was not, in my view, denying responsibility to help promote it, but rather a comment in support of Arafat.

I think Abbas seems a bit naive, whatever he really is; he believes that anything can be accomplished by peace and diplomacy in this situation. Though he is right to an extent when dealing with democratic governments (Israel) he is not when dealing with terrorist organizations (Hamas, Islamic Jihad.) Those terrorist organizations need to be stopped; their slaughter of innocent civilians must not continue.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
4. These people must not read much.
This is not new.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. which people?
LOL this is the second time you have posted this message. It just gave me a laugh.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. The ones that write this crap.
Edited on Fri Jul-25-03 08:27 PM by bemildred
And the one's that are "not impressed" and surprised and
so on. Mr. Abbas has never suggested in any form that he
does not work for and with Mr. Arafat, as He should, since
Mr. Arafat is the elected representative of the Palestinian
people. If you don't like that you need to give the Palestinian
people some reason to support someone else. I suppose in the
context I should point out that the present policies of the
Israeli government have had the opposite effect, and Mr.
Arafat has not hesitated to exploit the situation for his own
benefit. Mr. Abbas understands, correctly, that he will not
get anywhere by trying to circumvent the will of his people,
so he wisely chooses not to go there, whatever the idiotic
rhetoric coming from the governments of the USA and Israel,
and just as wisely he chooses not to lie about it.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Arafat supports terrorism...
and needs to be removed. He was elected as much as Bush was elected, if not less.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Arafat is the symptom, not the cause.
Edited on Fri Jul-25-03 08:49 PM by bemildred
If you remove him without addressing the causes you will
just get another one to replace him. If your interest is
simply to have revenge on him, fine, but that has nothing to
do with peace and nothing to do with negotiating a settlement.

If he is to be removed, he must be removed by the Palestinian
people, that is what democracy and self-determination and all
that sort of rhetoric is about. Anything else is just going to
bite you in the ass.

Edit: Just for the record, I'm not an Arafat fan, he's just as
big an asshole as Sharon, but it isn't up to the Palestinian
people to decide Sharon must be removed, if Israelis are dumb
enough to want Sharon that is their problem, and the same applies
to the Palestinians and Arafat.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I agree...
But then someone must ensure that the elections are completely fair. You are certainly correct that he is not the cause of the problem; taht has to do with radical Judiasm and Islam.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Agreed.
I think it is up to the Palestinians to see that their
elections are fair, they are all armed as near as I can
tell. We all get (collectively) the government that we
deserve (or allow). But otherwise, yeah.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Well...
Edited on Fri Jul-25-03 09:00 PM by Darranar
It isn't clear that the Palestinians have the power to ensure that their elections are fair. Without international scrutiny, a messed-up election could lead to a full-scale Palestinian civil war that could otherwise be prevented. I say that the international community, working perhaps through the UN, needs to ensure that those elections are perfectly fair.

If that civil war happens, the radicals, for whatever reason, could forcefully seize power, and allow the terrorists free reign in the West Bank and Gaza. If that occurs, it would be wishful thinking to expect them to avoid striking at Israeli civilian targets.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I have no problem with international observers.
But they leave. In the end its up to the Palestinians to be
a democracy or not. The fact that you went through the form
of a "fair election" is not enough. I point out your example
of Mr. Bush's "election".
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Voting fraud...
is not what I'm really worried about. Though there certainly will be an element of that, that is easily solvable once the Palestinian people realize what is happening. I am worried about radicals siezing the government by force through the unrest possibly caused by an election.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. What government?
The governing institutions are not there.
It's not like there is some elaborate secret police
apparatus, and if there were, I would not want to be in
their shoes. It's chaos is what it is. Arafat sits in
his little office and waits.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. The government that will be there...
Edited on Fri Jul-25-03 09:23 PM by Darranar
when the Palestinian state is created. There is a governing institution to some extent in the West Bank, anyway.

Anyway, I don't support the sudden creation of a Palestinian state. I support a gradual transfer of the settlers from the West Bank and Gaza back into Israel, along with a gradual transformation of the PA into an independent governing institution for the West Bank and Gaza. Once this is accomplished, a state can be declared.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I do not think Arafat will long survive in power
in a Palestinian state. I think orderly change with
the protection of the interests of all parties is essential
to any prospect of success. I think you will find many
will not choose to move in the absence of violence, it
is fear that drives most people.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-03 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I agree...
Arafat has no hope if there is a real Palestinian state. That is one reason he is subtly moving against the peace process.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. That is why you don't want to get rid of Arafat.
He is the one that wants to negotiate a settlement.
It's not the settlement that Sharon wants, but he is the
"moderate" who wants to settle. He wants a real state,
but he will settle for that. I certainly do think it
would be nice if his name was Yasir Ghandi instead, but he
is what you have and the alternative is Hamas, not Abbas,
Abbas has no power in his own right and he's not that sort
of guy anyway.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I don't think Arafat...
is any more for peace than Sharon is. I think he's been dodging and lying his way through all these peace plans-like Sharon. Though I don't think he should be forced from power, I do think power should be gradually transferred to a prime minister with power who is elected on a regular basis in fair elections.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-25-03 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Reasonable people can disagree about his intent.
I agree he is a lying asshole, but hey, he's a politician.
I think it would be excellent to get rid of the swine myself.
But it needs to be done by the will of the Palestinian people.

I have to go, my friend, let us continue this later.
:thumbsup:
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-26-03 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. If you go back to the Oslo Peace Process
Edited on Sat Jul-26-03 04:08 PM by Wonder
Between Israeli interference in Palestinian electorate process via the Israeli Palestinian Liaison Committee which gave, Israel veto power of who could run, and Arafat jailing and torturing Palestinian dissidents to protect his autocracy. And the US brokers who quite frankly were, then as now, brokering from an Israeli security standpoint; it becomes clear that little about that process had much to do with the Palestinian's right to self determine, thier plight, their cause, or their soverignty. Sadly I am not sure much has changed since then. With Sharon at the helm in Israel and the same Palestinian couple at the helm within a PA that is now in shambles, to say nothing of the greed of our present US admin; one might argue their has been further erosion to any hope of reconciliation if all continues on the this current track which IMHO, seems is headed toward transfer, though or course I refrain from any final conculsions.

Abbas was there back than too, standing behind Arafat rather than in front of him. He is not even a lawyer and while at first I thought he was going to work within the construct of Israeli and Western restrictions, I felt he understood the Cause of his people. Now I am not sure anymore as he is not jumping off the page in any real charasmatic way. He seems to be making demands, but they tend to be without vision or are they specific to a solution wholely in solidarity with is own people. Or at least within the restraint he is placed under it becomes increasingly harder to tell. Yes, he does seem to be taking cues from Arafat, but I am not convinced he himself has ironed out any strong course or direction.

Because of the disproporation balance of power exhurted over the Palestinians in this conflict, and the matrix or control tactics exhurted by the occupation, the palestinian Leadership most mobilize in away that begins to unify the people behind non-violent means, instill hope with vision to a people whose cultural identity has been undermined. Abbas must find a way (and no so much on Arafat's say. I am not sure Arafat is capable) to begin to address his people so that their solidarity is of the utmost focus from his side of the negotiating table, not just Israel's security.

Rather than to repeat myself. Although upon rereading it, I would thrush it out further, I wrote this somewhere else:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=34612&mesg_id=34827&page=

I would add that Abbas must begin to address outwardly the challenges and obstacles before him as posed from the inside and from the outside. It is a deep subject, and while one article certainly cannot address the magnitude of it, the below article which was written during the Oslo process, does stand true today.

It is analysis from a Palestinian perspective, which I feel loathe to say, as I almost feel I should apologize for placing it in anticipation of the kind of reception I fear it will receive. I am familiar with the usual denigration this particular Palestinian author tends to receive. I have read Weiner's baseless accusations, as well as various Rebuttals to it.

So please let us not waste time going round and round with those arguments, because the Author has dedicated his life to this subject. He is prolific and has much astute criticism, analyses, and historic perspective to offer in regard to Palestinian corruption, Israeli control, as well as the heartfelt understanding of the Palestinian Cause, which is admirable, heroic, and too be expected, as what perspective should he speak on? His is as verifiable and as valid as all others present within this debate, and sometimes more so. We can not escape the fact that Israel and the US must release a bit the strangulation that has been of great harm and damage to the Palestinain identity as well as the emergence of Palestinian unity or a true nationalistic Palestinian process and pride. Enough with this prolonged introduction.

snip
Take as a simple case in point the current Palestinian case, where the failures seem the most glaring and the remedies more easily at hand than anyone has suspected. We have been saddled with poor leadership ever since I can remember, and still we persist in supporting the same bankrupt group through all its mistakes and disasters. On the other hand, we pride ourselves on the many successes of our people -- doctors, lawyers, engineers, entrepreneurs, businessmen, intellectuals, academics, artists. We claim that we want statehood and independence, yet none of the most basic institutions of statehood are in anyone's mind. There is no basic law where the Palestinian Authority rules today, the result of one man's whim not to approve such a law, in flagrant defiance of the Legislative Assembly. Our universities are in an appalling state, starved for money, desperately run and administered, filled with professors who struggle to make a living but have not done a stroke of research or independent work in years. We also have a large and impressive group of extremely wealthy businesspersons who have simply not grasped that the essential thing for any people is a massive investment in education, the construction of a national library, and the endowment of the entire university structure as a guarantee that as a people we will have a future. I have attended meetings for almost twenty years in which hundreds of little projects are funded, but without a central vision of what it is that as a society we need. The absence of a collective end to which all are committed has crippled Palestinian efforts not just in the official realm, but even among private associations, where personality conflicts, outright fights, and disgraceful backbiting hamper our every step.

end snip
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/1998/1948/360_said.htm
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-27-03 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. A well thought out piece there.
:thumbsup:

I was considering this weekend the possibility that one purpose
of the "road map" was to drive a wedge into the unity and
persistence of the Palestinians. Hence the little hook about
a real state thrown in, one of the things denied them in the Oslo
process. It may be that what we are doing now is waiting to see
whether the US will enforce that provision, or not. If not, I think
the Intifada will resume.

The IDFs operations have not been particularly effective, and have
been disasters on the PR and international relations fronts, and very
expensive. How clumsy do you have to be to lose the PR war to people
who blow themselves up in Pizza parlors?

Ugly though it is, I've been thinking for some time that all the
Palestinians have to do is squat down in the mud and the shit they
live in and lob a terrorist or two over into Israel from time to
time, and wait for the whole mess to collapse of its own internal
contradictions.

The bit about unifying the Palestinians behind a program of non-violent
resistance is right on, I am sure that is the thing that most
effectively advance their interests; the present course seem better
designed to turn the whole place into a copy of Somalia.
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Wonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-28-03 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. It all seems old news, Bemildred. Why I have refrained from
responding reflexively. Yes a program of non-violent resistant is right on, but will be for naught without Sharon making some concessions on the Israeli side.

I key in and search around and key in some, read diligent from at the moment 3 openned books at once and still it goes round and round.

Another old article from last year when already the al-Aqsa Intifada began sept 2001. Israel must give up something more than anything it is control and it must make some concessions... for it is clear the collision course this farce remains on.

snip
The crucial point in all this is that Israel has been in illegal military occupation since 1967; it is the longest such occupation in history, and the only one anywhere in the world today: this is the original and continuing violence against which all the Palestinian acts of violence have been directed. Yesterday (10 December), two children aged 3 and 13 were killed by Israeli bombs in Hebron, yet at the same time an EU delegation was demanding that Palestinians curtail their violence and acts of terrorism. Today five more Palestinians were killed, all of them civilian, victims of helicopter bombings of Gaza's refugee camps. To make matters worse, as a result of the 11 September attacks, the word 'terrorism' is being used to blot out legitimate acts of resistance against military occupation and any causal or even narrative connection between the dreadful killing of civilians (which I have always opposed) and thirty plus years of collective punishment is proscribed.

Every Western pundit or official who pontificates about Palestinian terrorism needs to ask how forgetting the fact of the occupation is supposed to stop terrorism.

read more if you haven't read this one already...
http://www.counterpunch.org/saidsecure.html

whichever perspective most seem relatively uptodate and informed on this topic, but it remains a matter of perspective with oneside blinded to others facts and points of view. To say it is frustrating is even idiocy.



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