Israel Vows to Destroy Hamas Brick by Brick

[tekisui]

Source: Australian Broadcast Company

A senior Israeli military officer says Israel is striking at the entire Hamas Government in the Gaza Strip, not just terrorists and people who launch rockets into Israel.

As air attacks continued through a third day, Israel defended the death toll in Gaza and blamed Hamas for using civilians as human shields.

Israeli military's deputy chief of staff Brigadier General Dan Harel says there will not be a single Hamas building left standing in Gaza when the attack is over.

"After this operation there will not be a single Hamas building left standing in Gaza, and we plan to change the rules of the game," he told the YNet News website.

"We are hitting not only terrorists and launchers, but also the whole Hamas Government and all its wings."

But UN aid workers say they are deeply worried about the risks to civilians as the air strikes continue.

The United Nations says 320 people have been killed, including 62 women and children, and around 1,400 wounded.

" does not include civilian casualties who are men, even though we know that there have been some civilian men killed as well," UN humanitarian affairs co-ordinator John Holmes said.

more: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/30/2456334.htm?section=justin

[tekisui]

1. Israel is seeking regime change of a democratically elected government.

[Vegasaurus]

4. Democracy my eye

Hamas runs a militaristic theocracy, where there is no freedom of the press, of speech.

Where women are stoned to death and without basic human rights.

So what that they had a vote?

Gaza is run by gunned militias who shoot down everyone who doesn't agree with them,

How anyone can support murderous terrorist thugs on a progressive website is astounding.

[EFerrari]

5. Your post would be hilarious were it not that people are being killed right now.

[Vegasaurus]

10. It isn't hilarious

that people are being killed.

But it is odd that anyone would even consider Hamas a "democratically elected government".

They are terrorist thugs, hell bent on killing as many Jews/Israelis as possible.

Read their charter.

Their goals are crystal clear.

[tekisui]

12. And, they were elected in fair elections that chimpy and the US bragged about.

[Vegasaurus]

17. And now Hamas is a repressive theocratic militaristic group

that has no human/civil rights.

No freedoms we all take for granted.

That isn't a democracy, no matter how they came to power (and they took over Gaza in a coup anyway).

[tekisui]

21. And, Israel is creating thousands that will adopt the violent attitude.

Violence begets violence.

Gazans will become more radicalized through these bombings, not less.

[Vegasaurus]

22. I agree

but the facts are facts.

The Palestinian political and religious leadership has said that they will not give up violent resistance as long as there is a Jew left in their land.

And they have also said that it doesn't matter what Israel does, whether they are nice or bombing them to pieces, they will continue violent resistance.

So you see, the radicalization is home grown, and encouraged and nurtured by the leadership, which teaches its youth to hate, to aspire to be a suicide bomber or martyr.

The violence has become part of the culture.

Just look at their children's TV programs, which are all about killing Jews.

[Better Believe It]

32. Lots of claims, can you document any of them using credible sources?

"The Palestinian political and religious leadership has said that they will not give up violent resistance as long as there is a Jew left in their land."

Which political and religious leadership? There are many different organizations and religious groups and non-religious ones!

LINKS PLEASE

"And they have also said that it doesn't matter what Israel does, whether they are nice or bombing them to pieces, they will continue violent resistance."

LINKS PLEASE

"So you see, the radicalization is home grown, and encouraged and nurtured by the leadership, which teaches its youth to hate, to aspire to be a suicide bomber or martyr."

Will you include Israeli children who write hate messages on bombs that are dropped on Arab children or do you have a double standard?

LINKS PLEASE

"The violence has become part of the culture."

Israeli or Palestinian culture, or both?

LINKS PLEASE

"Just look at their children's TV programs, which are all about killing Jews."

Name the childrens TV shows "which are all about killing Jews" which you claim to watch.

LINKS PLEASE

[oberliner]

48. The TV show is "Tomorrow's Pioneers"

Wikipedia has some info on the show and links to more information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers

[azurnoir]

64. The claim the poster you defend made was that

all Palestinian childrens shows were about killing Jews.

[Vegasaurus]

63. Google is your friend

there are millions of hits on anti semitism in children's TV, indoctrinating youth to become martyrs, teaching kids hate, the messages of hate by Palestinian religious and political leaders.

[azurnoir]

65. 1 out of 5 clainms and even that one is dubuious

as it is only one show and your claim was shows as in plural for once prove your claims.

[Vegasaurus]

67. There are too many to count

and many have been posted before, but here is the Mickey Mouse teaching hate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4

[EFerrari]

13. Their election was cleaner than ours. n/t

[tekisui]

7. I am not supporting them.

Criticizing Israel does not equate to defending Hamas. That kind of black and white thinking is why violence has been the norm.

Hamas was elected, in election the US supported and took pride in. They were democratically elected. The people who voted knew exactly what they were getting.

[aranthus]

14. Agreed, but so what?

Let's assume that Hams was really a legitimate democratically elected government (which is not terribly far from the truth). Does that give them carte blanche to build up a terrorist arsenal and launch it against Israel? Of course not. If anything, that puts the lie to the claim that Israel is engaging in "collective punishment." Then, not only is Hams the government of Gaza, but it is the democratically elected government. Aren't the people responsible for the party they elect to power? Whether they "want war" or not, if they elect the war party, aren't they accountable for their choice?

[tekisui]

16. As much as I dislike Hamas, and I do,

Israel's actions this week are creating new generations of Gazans who will undoubtedly be Hamas sympathizers. They will renew their fear and anger at Israel and seek leadership who appears strong.

[The Stranger]

29. Your eye seems to have some problems with it.

Nothing you posted can justify the murder of innocent civilians. Israel itself gave Hamas its greatest votes early in its life, supporting Hamas against Fatah and Arafat.

Gaza is not run by militias, but by the occupying power that denies the civilians within food and medicine.

How anyone can support outright and open murder on a progressive website is unfathomable.

[razorman]

6. Which means that the Palestinian people are responsible

the actions of their Hamas government. It was Hamas that started this latest ball rolling by ending the truce with their rocket attacks.

[tekisui]

9. With respect, the ball has never stopped rolling.

[razorman]

25. I know. It has been rolling a long time.

I was just referring to this latest round of violence. It seems that no truce lasts long over there.

[JuniperLea]

45. It takes two to tango...

There are no innocents in this. Except for the innocent people on BOTH sides who are the actual victims in this.

[JuniperLea]

2. This is pretty disgusting

Sometimes I can't believe it's the 21st century.

How about vowing to discuss the issues, together, ad nauseum, until an agreement is reached? No... let's fuck 'em all up! That'll learn 'em!

I'm disgusted... thoroughly disgusted at this whole mess.

They seem to be attempting to bring this to a head while BushCo is still in charge.

[EFerrari]

3. And while the US public is on holiday. n/t

[GSPowner]

8. Why should they have to over look the rocket attacks?

Are they to simply ignore the Hamas attacks? If Hamas and the other knuckleheaded terrorist group Hezbollah would stop firing rockets into Israel I think the IDF would be content to stay out of their way.

If it was me I would have wiped out Hezbollah and Hamas when give the opportunity in 2006...they should not have held back. The firing of rockets from populated areas seems to illustrate their true character and lack of respect for the innocent, both Israeli and Palestinian.

War sucks but "tit for tat" s not a valid or sound military response. Overwhelming military force is the only and responsible course. Screw what the world thinks Israel should crush their enemies...If we had some knuckleheaded group firing missiles into our country I would hope we would make there world a glass parking lot!

Israel has a right to exist according to the UN Charter way back when...they neighbors attacked them and got there asses handed to them and are typically on the wrong end when dealing with Israel. I would suggest they leave the IDF and the Israeli populace alone and simply go the political route. No one wins but at least no one will die for being stupid and messing with the 800 lb gorilla in the ME.

[tekisui]

11. International peacekeepers have maintained the peace on the

Hezbollah side of Israel. There is no reason why a similar approach could not work in Gaza.

[aranthus]

18. International peace keepers almost never keep the peace.

Only the balance of power and the desire of the parties to not fight prevents war. Peace keepers are just an excuse the rulers give to their own people for not fighting.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

34. UNIFIL is a toothless eunuch

They did not live up to their mandate before or after the 2006 Lebanon war. Due to their inept impotence, Hezbollah was rearmed and the Government of Lebanon had no choice but to accept a fait acompli in southern Lebanon. The UNIFIL dog don't hunt and never has.



I'll get back off my soapbox now, but the failure of UNIFIL is one of my hot buttons.

[hack89]

47. They have also turned a blind eye while Hezbollah rearmed

in violation of UN mandates - therefore guaranteeing another bloody conflict in the future.

[JuniperLea]

23. Show me where I said anything even close to what you are saying in your post!

"If we had some knuckleheaded group firing missiles into our country I would hope we would make there world a glass parking lot!"

Wow... You've been listening to closely to GW Bush... this is his warmongering thinking too.

What part of "talking" or "negotiations" do you not understand? Why is it discussing the rockets is ignoring them in your estimation?

[GSPowner]

41. Well...

This line lead me to the thought:

"How about vowing to discuss the issues, together, ad nauseum, until an agreement is reached? No... let's f*&% 'em all up! That'll learn 'em!"


Sure discussion is fine. when the bullets are not flying. But how long have they been talking? It has been ad-nausea...it has been fruitful at times nut most times not. And seriously what is to talk about when some fool is firing high explosive ordinance at you? Why should I even have to tell you that isn’t the right thing to do. Israel has the right to defend itself...


So if you had a tree that was too big and encroached over into my yard and I was mad you did not trim your tree... I am also really mad because you did not care for your house at all. It is causing me grief and I felt like to achieve my goal was to shoot at you...you would want to talk after this had been going on for decades and decades and we had spoken hundreds of times. However, way back when you were already a transient resident the city authorized you to build a big house it upset me because I was not given a permit. So my pretence for shooting at you is because I could not build a house not really that you have a tree. Your telling me that you would walk over and engage me in "talks" about your tree? Keep in mind I am shooting at you daily, randomly, indiscriminately and deadly. but you don't think you should defend yourself but rather talk?

How many times should a terrorist group be given a pass? An idealistc view if this situation is unproductive and has been for decades. The realistic view is that one of two things will have to happen...both sides give up a bunch of ground literaly and figuratively or Israel crushes Hamas. After what I seen and read one is more achievable that the other ...it is more a matter of acceptance. Who is willing to accept the results of either one. The world does not seem willing to let Israel destroy an enemy and neither Israel nor the Palestinians are willing to accept what they have to give up for this assume goal of peace. The problem with the latter is that like the tree argument it is simply a pretense. I do not believe the Pali’s even want peace. I think the goal of both Hamas and Hezbollah is the destruction of Israel. So the objective of Peace is really a farce. At the very least is it is a Utopian ideal.

[JuniperLea]

43. Sure... when bullets aren't flying... like that ever happens...

It is because bullets are flying that discussion MUST happen!

In my city, if my tree is hanging over the property line into your property, you have the right to cut it back to my property line. Do you know why that is? It's because people got together and talked it over and decided on a COMPROMISE. I don't want anyone touching my damn tree! So, either I keep it trimmed back myself, or someone else has the right to do the trimming... up to an agreed upon and pre-determined limit.

How is it giving anyone a pass to force them to sit down and talk? That is nonsense.

Israel wants Palestine to be blasted off the face of the Earth, and Hamas and Hezbolla want the same thing for Israel. There is no difference. Both are criminals and both need to sit down and talk things through and reach agreements and make concessions! BOTH sides. BOTH! Meaning, ISRAEL AND PALESTINE! BOTH! This is NOT a one-sided issue! Both groups are in the wrong and both need to work it out and compromise.

[GSPowner]

51. Truly if that were the case and

Israel wanted to blow Hamas off the map then they would not have conceded the Gaza strip and done it a long time ago. The idea of forcing two groups of people one that is a Sovergn nation to do something that we think is best sounds like Imperialism. Hey I would rather "we would all just get along" but that is not much more than hope.

The underliing premise of my analogy is that one side cares nothing about the tree regardless of how much talk. vis-vi hamas and Hezbollah and Hamas have written charter if you can call them that that call for the destruction of Israel. Not so of Israel. It would be a pass if the "world" or anyone else forced Israel from defending herself.

[JuniperLea]

56. And what did you expect the Palestinians to do?

They were in a desperate situation and got into bed with some really bad people because they felt hopeless and helpless. History shows this happens.

I find it interesting that you fully deny Hamas and Hezbollah as legitimate, but point to a written charter.

From my POV, neither group has much stake in the area, and there is no real reason why they can't share.

"Hey I would rather "we would all just get along" but that is not much more than hope." This is the part that really pisses me off in this situation. Oh hell, we can't change a damn thing, so let's just blow everyone up and git 'er done.

:eyes:

[aranthus]

15. What would you have Israel do? n/t

[tekisui]

19. I would have ALL sides renounce violence as a policy.

With concessions from both sides, and with an understanding that all involve have committed atrocious acts.

Bring in the International Community. Since Hamas is now recognized in government, they can be punished of their rocket attacks through the International Community.

I would have ALL sides renounce violence as a policy.

[aranthus]

24. That's nice. what would you have Israel do in the real world?

The world where Hamas is across the border lobbing rockets at Israeli towns? The world where Hamas wants Israel gone. The world where Hamas won't renounce violence?

By the way. There is no "International Community." There are separate sovereign governments that seek to promote their own interests, and I don't know of a single one that has an interest in sending troops to disarm Hamas.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

37. Actually Hamas is not recognized as a sovereign government

If any of the factions is recognized if the PA, lead currently by Fatah.

[JuniperLea]

26. How about putting on their big kid pants...

And talking to each other like adults?

[aranthus]

27. Fine. Talk about what?

Hamas says that its demands for a truce are:

1. No Israeli attacks on Hamas anywhere, including the West Bank.
2. Freedom for Hamas prisoners in Israel.
3. End the blockade of Gaza (relatively open borders).

In short, Hamas wants Israel to leave them alone to do whatever they want in Gaza, and eventually the West Bank. Should Israel agree to that? If they did, then what do you think would happen? And what should Israel do when it does happen?

[JuniperLea]

28. Then they have a hell of a lot to talk about, don't they?

Both sides need to come to the table and talk, and negotiate, and COMPROMISE.

[aranthus]

35. And if Hamas won't compromise? What then? n/t

[JuniperLea]

38. Same thing if Israel won't compromise...

BOTH sides need to engage in some give and take, and BOTH sides need to compromise. Both sides are wrong in this, and both sides need to talk it out.

[HeraldSquare212]

36. Withdraw from the territories.

[aranthus]

42. Then what?

Will merely withdrawing from the territories stop the rockets and mortar attacks? How? And if withdrawing won't stop the attacks, why should Israel do it? Or if Israel withdraws and the attacks continue, then what should Israel do?

[HeraldSquare212]

49. Gosh, you're right - what if?

[aranthus]

52. I asked a serious question.

I hoped for a serious answer. Do you want to try again, or shall we just forget it?

[JuniperLea]

57. You just don't get it...

It's these extremely stupid hypotheticals that are keeping any real peace negotiations from happening.

[aranthus]

70. Responsible people ask what will happen next.

Far from being stupid hypotheticals, the possibility of further and enhanced attacks against Israel is the likely result of a unilateral withdrawal. Why should the Israelis invite that? I wasn't responding to a proposal for peace negotiations. The proposal was for a unilateral withdrawal from the Territories. What does that have to do with peace talks? If Israel withdraws, what is there to talk about other than ending the violent resistance to Israel's existence? So just end it.

[JuniperLea]

71. Hypothetical rely on assumptions

I suppose it's the assumptions I'm finding problems with.

There is a possibility of further and enhanced attacks from and to both sides. I'm sick of the mentality that says, "The bombings will continue until peace breaks out."

[aranthus]

72. When one side is committed to violent destruction of the other it's a reasonable assumption.

If Hamas wanted peace with Israel, then it could have that, which would bring open borders, and a better life for Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. The problem is that Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel. It wants Israel gone.

Also, there is not an equal probability of further attacks from both sides. If the Palestinians stop attacking Israel, then Israel will not attack the Palestinians.

[StudsT]

20. didn't they say the same thing about hezbollah recently? They are as crazy as our neo-cons

and as murderous.

StudsT

[EFerrari]

30. Price of oil goes up.

Gold, energy prices advance as fighting continues between Israel, Hamas; grain prices decline

NEW YORK (AP) -- Gold and energy rose in light trading Monday as investors looked for defensive positions amid stepped-up fighting in the Middle East.

Investors often turn to gold as a safe investment in an uncertain market, and so contracts for February delivery of the metal rose $4.10 to settle at $875.30 an ounce on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

Political uncertainty around the world, including the potential for war, tends to send gold higher. The metal has been recovering after falling in mid-November due to selling by hedge funds and other large investors, and Monday's advance built on those gains.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Gold-energy-rise-amid-apf-13930176.html

[JuniperLea]

31. There are no accidents

We're being played like a fiddle.

[EFerrari]

33. I think so. While we sit here and argue over trivia, some people are being

killed and some people are making a lot of money. Another day.

[JuniperLea]

40. Yep. We fall for the dog and pony show every time

And we get caught up in the arguments from both sides.

I was just talking to another poster about compromise. Said poster asks, what if Hamas doesn't compromise... :eyes: I had no recourse but to say, same thing as if Israel doesn't compromise! They are both in this, they are both wrong, they both need to come to the table and talk, and negotiate, and compromise. Arguing the finer details is a distraction to the fact that they both need to get off their asses and talk to each other!

[HeraldSquare212]

39. "And we'll keep blowing things up till the Palenstinian people install a puppet government."

[aranthus]

44. How about a government that doesn't call for the destruction of Israel? n/t

[JuniperLea]

46. How about Israel not calling for the destruction of Palestine?

Both are at fault here, and both need to make concessions. Both need to come to the table and talk. BOTH.

[GSPowner]

53. Your Utopia sounds nice and all but...you are missing a few nuggets in your Happy Meal

1. Israel has never called for the destruction of the Palestinians as a national policy.
2. Israel does not as a regular occurrence...say like 60 times a day fire rockets in to Gaza or anywhere else unprovoked.
3. You assume you or some world body is the arbiter of righteousness and fairness
4. That this world body can and should impose its will on a Sovereign nation...that will which would happen to be making concessions that the US/Russia/EU and the UN have tried to encourage…something
5. You give legitimate status to a group of people that are not yet a sovereign state and barely qualify as a colony that is fractious, corrupt and continually fight amongst themselves and has in their charter calling for the destruction of another sovereign nation.

Who do you see as this world body to impose its will and force them to talk? The United States? Russia, China, EU? The UN?

[JuniperLea]

55. Legitimate status... interesting...

Isn't that what Israel seeks too?

You go to great lengths to justify murder, and to eschew any discussion on how these two can get along. You also ignore a long history of world leaders, including many US presidents, who have served as arbitrators. In addition, you fail to see how much more damage Israel is doing to these people than they are to Israel. Unprovoked my lily white ass. No, Israel has never, as a national policy, called for the destruction of Palestinians, they merely get right to the matter, physically, without speaking of it as such. And then refuse international aid to the injured, and the suffering. Yeah, they are just swell these morally corrupt warmongers you so vehemently attempt to absolve from responsibility.

[GSPowner]

59. Isreal is a Sovereign country....the do not need to ask to defend themselves

Russia did not run their decision to respond the Chechen rebels by the US or anyone else.

Israel and Hamas sitting around a table "compromising" away what both sides see as core and non-negotiable points is idealistic and a great idea. But it is not a new idea and history seems to have proved that is not working except in starts and stops.

Let me address each assertion / accusation individually.

I do not justify murder I simply point out Israel has a right to exist and they also have the right to defend themselves. It is not up to you or someone else to dictate the response. To force them to do why we want is a bit Imperialistic don't you think.???? Politically we can pressure them but that is the extent to which we should exert influence.

I do not fail to see the damage they inflict...I see it and I see them failing miserably to achieve their goal of stopping the rockets and living in peace. You passion and concern about the damage belies your feelings that this is some how not fair maybe to the Palestinians. Self defense is not about being fair and did the general populace elect the current Hamas administration? If they choose to respond it should be to meet to goals of "why" they should respond not a “tit for tat”. Hence, if they do not care about being bombed indiscriminately they can simply ignore the rockets and accept the results. If the goal is to stop the rockets then they should execute a response to achieve their goal. So far I see them failing in the past, currently and even in the future. I don't think they have the guts to do the job right.

The option you seem to propose is for Israel to ignore the rocket attacks and talk.

Israel does not just get to the point and physically destroy the Palestinians. They do not wake up and decide to attack the Pallies. If that were true there would not be a Palestinian problem they would be gone. If that were true Israel would have taken care of them years ago had it not been for the world pressuring them to stop in each of the so called conflicts over the past 30 years. They have the capability to make Gaze a black spot yet they have not. The could have made Hezbollah extinct but they didn’t. So to say that their goal is to destroy the Palies is simply drama at best and what I see as disingenuous rhetoric.

Refusing aid? I think they have a good reason to refuse entry by anyone...under UN resolutions, sanctions cease fires or whatever they are and continue to rearm and fire missiles into Israel. Why should Israel trust anyone to hold either Hamas or Hezbollah to their agreements?

Your are calling the entire nation of Israel warmongering? Quite a broad stroke don’t you think. Warmongering would mean they are initiating war. They are responding to the violation of the cease fire or rocket attacks.

I don't ignore history in fact I have referenced history and its failure and I have recognized this feud for centuries.

[JuniperLea]

62. You are clearly ignoring what I've said and have gone on with...

Spouting out things that has nothing to do with what I've said... and you assume, and you twist what I say so it fits your pre-cut patent talking points.

No wonder you don't understand the virtues of negotiations.

[Recursion]

66. I can't stress the importance of this enough

Neither side admits the legitimacy of the other, but one side (Hamas) is willing to negotiate to try to achieve that recognition. The other side requires that recognition (which should be the results of negotiation) as a precondition to negotiation. This is infantile.

[JuniperLea]

68. The operative word in all of this is "infantile"

It's all very Bushian.

[HeraldSquare212]

50. Bush called some countries the Axis of Evil

Would that have justified them attacking the US? After all, we elected him.

[JuniperLea]

58. Excellent point

Seems far too many here are embracing Bush ideology... all the hypotheticals... what if, what if, bah. Just do what Bush did... blow them all to kingdom come! That'll learn 'em!

:eyes:

[GSPowner]

60. Saying a country is part of an axis of evil as morally equivalent to launching rockets is absurd.

The "what if" question is asked to make the point that what you are saying is that Israel should ignore the rockets and just keep talking and if they keep talking long enough then the rockets will stop. Totally ignoring that Israel is a country and has rights to defend itself. That kind of thinking is one track and one dimensional and does not address the terroristic launching of rockets by Hamas.

[JuniperLea]

61. Makes more sense than...

The bombings will continue until peace breaks out.

[GSPowner]

74. The bombings will continue until the rockets stop. Hamas broke the truce not Isreal

Your response is logically and philosophically shallow...and naive.

It is militarily and politically sound that the rockets stop first. Then they can talk until they are blue in the face and have a great ME love in.

[bunnies]

54. Translation: We're gonna wipe 'em off the map!

Now, where have I heard that before? :shrug:

[JuniperLea]

69. It's all very...

Bushian, and McCainian, isn't it?

[Hugabear]

73. Translated: One innocent civilian at a time

For the record, NOBODY is stating that Israel should ignore Hamas' rocket attacks. But the way Israel is going about responding to these attacks is flat-out wrong, and is basically terrorism.